JoeCanuck
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Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:45 pm

I just read the thread on EY's rumored nixing of its Residence...which got me thinking.

It seems to me that if the costs were similar, then the convenience and prestige of flying on a private jet would make it the more desirable option.

At what price point differential, does it make more sense to fly private than commercial?
What the...?
 
drdisque
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:08 pm

For fractional ownership to make sense, you and at least an assistant, have to be traveling nearly constantly. However, the case is a lot easier to make if you frequently have to travel to locations that are not near an airport with commercial service or are frequently flying between points that require making a connection or a double connection (for example frequently going from Hamburg to Saskatoon or US domestic something like Waco, TX to Pasco, WA). It's really the time is money crowd where using scheduled airline service would take a lot of extra time where flying private makes sense.

For folks flying from New York to London or Paris to Dubai, it's more of an entitlement/exclusivity thing than anything else to fly private vs. 1st class ("I fly when I want, where I want, and with whom I want!")
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:47 pm

Thirty years + ago, I flew for a NYC newspaper that rhymes with Limes. Just about every week we’d a fly one of two planes KLGA to KDCA. This was in the days of the Eastern Shuttke, hourly service, roll out a plane if the prime is full. Since then, I’ve flown private jets, LON-TEB, NYC-DXB, LON-LBG, HPN-ANC-HKG. Once you have the plane on your schedule completely private, it’s hard to go back to shuffling thru the F line at security and handing over a boarding pass to a sloppily dressed agent. For any amount of money. Land at TEB, helicopter wisks you to the east side heliport, eliminating the Holland tunnel, then limo to Park Ave.

What’s a F ticket, NYC-LON; $8,000? That’s about the DOCs on a Global/Gulfstream per hour. Costs are never gonna be close, still doesn’t matter. I’m talking privately owned, not the hoi polloi shared ownership near-rich.

GF
 
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capshandler
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:10 pm

In Europe I don’t think it makes sense taking into account Eurocontrol taxes and fuel prices. I have a friend that recently jumped from flying First Class as main Business transport and a Cirrus as a leisure plane, to a Citation Mustang as the Business tool while keeping the Cirrus as a fun hop. Cost wise it doesn’t make any sense. He runs on the fixed maintenance programme and the cost is cripling. So I’d say it’s a totally different segment towards different targets.
 
jackieman27
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:20 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
What’s a F ticket, NYC-LON; $8,000? That’s about the DOCs on a Global/Gulfstream per hour. Costs are never gonna be close, still doesn’t matter.
GF


Exactly... The price of a flight in a large biz jet to any owner is not even close to the top of their concerns. Time is money
 
ltbewr
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:30 pm

There is also the issue of security for some top level business and financial executives where contractually or per their insurers, they (and even family members) may only use corporate or private jets, including for vacation or private travel vs. 1st Class on commercial airlines.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:02 pm

I was in business of peddling bizjets. Most owners of large-cabin planes the cost of buying and ownership is proportionally less than the cars are for the pilots. For a private equity person making $100 million per year, the $5 million for personal transport isn’t a big deal-I spend more than 5% of my income on two cars.

GF
 
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:07 pm

Welcome to the world of Netjets, Flexjet, and VistaJet.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:30 pm

My employer flies private to allow private conversation and meetings.

Anyone willing to pay $8k will consider $16k. Once it is a negotiation team, why give up hours of strategy time?

Private jets cap F prices low. For while a private jet is outrageous in price to one F ticket, it isn't so bad for the team.

Lightsaber
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iamlucky13
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:34 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I was in business of peddling bizjets. Most owners of large-cabin planes the cost of buying and ownership is proportionally less than the cars are for the pilots. For a private equity person making $100 million per year, the $5 million for personal transport isn’t a big deal-I spend more than 5% of my income on two cars.

GF


The Dave Ramsey rule that many people follow is all your vehicles should have a cost of no more than half your annual income - well above 5%.

That's a convenient figure with respect to a $5 million aircraft, because the general statistics the IRS publishes have their top income category as $10 million and above.

The IRS reports there are roughly 16,000 households in the US with this level of income.

I don't have a particular point to make with this. I just thought it was interesting to observe that so many people in the US could hypothetically rationalize an aircraft at that cost or higher as easily as you or I can rationalize a new car.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:37 pm

I was talking operating expense, but since you bring up purchase price, ok, that seems awfully high number, 50% of your income for a depreciating asset(s). Looking back my history never exceeded 33% in original purchase prices combined. Ramsey must be a car salesman.

I should have been clearer, looking back at my post. The $5 million is annual operating expense for a $50 million-ish Global/Gulfstream owned by a Hugh Net Worth Individual having a wealth in the $1-20 billion. Purchase price would thus be, at most, 5% of net worth and likely much less than 50% of annual income.

There was a divorcee who somewhat famously received a $950 million check in the settlement. One of her first calls was to the plane salesman with, “I don’t have the plane anymore, we need to make a deal”.

GF
 
musman9853
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:48 pm

how well do companies like netjets do? can they really afford the hundreds of jets they need?
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Okie
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:00 am

capshandler wrote:
I have a friend that recently jumped from flying First Class as main Business transport and a Cirrus as a leisure plane, to a Citation Mustang as the Business tool while keeping the Cirrus as a fun hop. Cost wise it doesn’t make any sense. He runs on the fixed maintenance programme and the cost is cripling. So I’d say it’s a totally different segment towards different targets.

Not everyone can jump from First Class to a Global in one step.
Single Pilot can make sense in some applications.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
There was a divorcee who somewhat famously received a $950 million check in the settlement. One of her first calls was to the plane salesman with, “I don’t have the plane anymore, we need to make a deal”.

$974,790,317.77 to be exact.


Okie
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:05 am

Of course they can afford them; they don’t own them the owners own shares and pay Net Jets to manage them for them.

GF
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:07 am

Okie wrote:
capshandler wrote:
I have a friend that recently jumped from flying First Class as main Business transport and a Cirrus as a leisure plane, to a Citation Mustang as the Business tool while keeping the Cirrus as a fun hop. Cost wise it doesn’t make any sense. He runs on the fixed maintenance programme and the cost is cripling. So I’d say it’s a totally different segment towards different targets.

Not everyone can jump from First Class to a Global in one step.
Single Pilot can make sense in some applications.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
There was a divorcee who somewhat famously received a $950 million check in the settlement. One of her first calls was to the plane salesman with, “I don’t have the plane anymore, we need to make a deal”.

$974,790,317.77 to be exact.


Okie


IIRC, she went from house wife to HNWI in five years!

GF
 
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MoKa777
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:16 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Okie wrote:
capshandler wrote:
I have a friend that recently jumped from flying First Class as main Business transport and a Cirrus as a leisure plane, to a Citation Mustang as the Business tool while keeping the Cirrus as a fun hop. Cost wise it doesn’t make any sense. He runs on the fixed maintenance programme and the cost is cripling. So I’d say it’s a totally different segment towards different targets.

Not everyone can jump from First Class to a Global in one step.
Single Pilot can make sense in some applications.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
There was a divorcee who somewhat famously received a $950 million check in the settlement. One of her first calls was to the plane salesman with, “I don’t have the plane anymore, we need to make a deal”.

$974,790,317.77 to be exact.


Okie


IIRC, she went from house wife to HNWI in five years!

GF


What does HNWI stand for?
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mxaxai
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:36 am

drdisque wrote:
For fractional ownership to make sense, you and at least an assistant, have to be traveling nearly constantly. However, the case is a lot easier to make if you frequently have to travel to locations that are not near an airport with commercial service or are frequently flying between points that require making a connection or a double connection (for example frequently going from Hamburg to Saskatoon or US domestic something like Waco, TX to Pasco, WA). It's really the time is money crowd where using scheduled airline service would take a lot of extra time where flying private makes sense.

I know several tech companies with assembly lines and suppliers distributed around the globe, who will happily pay any price to shuffle key employees between those sites. They don't own the jets and those flights will usually be fairly full, so the cost per passenger is actually not *that* high. The "time is money" aspect isn't neccesarily the salary of the employees themselves but the cost of an assembly line not running for a day or two.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:52 am

MoKa777 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Okie wrote:
Not everyone can jump from First Class to a Global in one step.
Single Pilot can make sense in some applications.


$974,790,317.77 to be exact.


Okie


IIRC, she went from house wife to HNWI in five years!

GF


What does HNWI stand for?

Presumably High-Net-Worth-Individual. Although she was hardly a housewife before the divorce.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hamm ... BK20150109
 
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MoKa777
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:29 am

mxaxai wrote:
MoKa777 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

IIRC, she went from house wife to HNWI in five years!

GF


What does HNWI stand for?

Presumably High-Net-Worth-Individual. Although she was hardly a housewife before the divorce.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hamm ... BK20150109


Hmm, interesting. Thanks
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Okie
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:11 pm

MoKa777 wrote:
What does HNWI stand for?

If you have to ask then you can not afford it. :roll:

mxaxai wrote:
Presumably High-Net-Worth-Individual. Although she was hardly a housewife before the divorce.

I am not exactly sure how much active roll she played in the companies.
There were a considerable number of individuals and companies that borrowed heavily when interest rates were near zero to expand when oil/gas prices were high that took a bath when prices dropped.

Apparently the divorce came through when petroleum prices were in a down turn and the whole company lost more than maybe 60-70% of its value before she got her share she also retained some of the assets.
I would be confident to assume that her net worth is probably billions more since oil prices have recovered since that time period.

Okie
 
Waterbomber
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:34 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I was in business of peddling bizjets. Most owners of large-cabin planes the cost of buying and ownership is proportionally less than the cars are for the pilots. For a private equity person making $100 million per year, the $5 million for personal transport isn’t a big deal-I spend more than 5% of my income on two cars.

GF


The Dave Ramsey rule that many people follow is all your vehicles should have a cost of no more than half your annual income - well above 5%.

That's a convenient figure with respect to a $5 million aircraft, because the general statistics the IRS publishes have their top income category as $10 million and above.

The IRS reports there are roughly 16,000 households in the US with this level of income.

I don't have a particular point to make with this. I just thought it was interesting to observe that so many people in the US could hypothetically rationalize an aircraft at that cost or higher as easily as you or I can rationalize a new car.


You can't get anything with 5 million USD, not even a Twotter.
10 million USD per annum is far from enough to afford anythinf bigger than a Cessna 182.
Just because an individual rakes in the big bucks, it's not a reason to spend that money on unnecessary vanities, because that's what this is really about.
Time is money but your next bizjet flight could crash and then your time is up. If your time is that valuable, you should avoid any kind of movement that could increase your risk of dying in an accident.
How many rich fools haven't we seen die in helicopter and bizjet crashes, trying to save precious time?

No thanks, I'd rather fly on a commercial flight where there is a much lower chance of dying than while walking on your way to the bakery at the corner of your street.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:52 pm

Waterbomber,

You have an unnecessarily low opinion of privately operated bizjets, probably based on headline making low-budget charter operators. Just about every big name HNWI fly in their own planes-Gates has two Gulfstreams , Jobs, now his widow has a Gulfstream, Google’s flight operation is huge, just about every large or large-ish bunnies has a plane. United Tech has had a flight department for 80 years without an accident. A rather famous plumbing manufacturer has a large department with Bill Clinton’s firmer AF1 Pilot as the manager. Most private equity people have their own jets. I doubt this many people have assessed the risks as you have.

Yes, private pilots in over their heads in single pilot jet make headlines as do cheap charter operators. , professionally flown jets are operated as safely as an airliner. The image you have doesn’t fit the reality that exists outside the public eye.

GF
Last edited by GalaxyFlyer on Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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MoKa777
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:55 pm

Okie wrote:
MoKa777 wrote:
What does HNWI stand for?

If you have to ask then you can not afford it. :roll:

Okie


LMAO I thought the exact same thing about myself!

I'm not a very high net-worth individual. I don't even have a net... haha
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24Whiskey
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:14 pm

The only way you could barely afford a Cessna 182 making $10 million/year is if you’re paying a mortgage on your private island with 8000’ airstrip.

Granted, prices for brand new Cessnas are ridiculous but come on.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:27 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
You can't get anything with 5 million USD, not even a Twotter.
10 million USD per annum is far from enough to afford anythinf bigger than a Cessna 182.
Just because an individual rakes in the big bucks, it's not a reason to spend that money on unnecessary vanities, because that's what this is really about.
Time is money but your next bizjet flight could crash and then your time is up. If your time is that valuable, you should avoid any kind of movement that could increase your risk of dying in an accident.
How many rich fools haven't we seen die in helicopter and bizjet crashes, trying to save precious time?

No thanks, I'd rather fly on a commercial flight where there is a much lower chance of dying than while walking on your way to the bakery at the corner of your street.


Envious much?

5M USD will buy you a very nice used King Air 350i, or a brand new 250GT 10M will give you the keys to a used Falcon 900, Challenger or G IV. Average DOC for a large, new, jet is around 8-10K/Hour. Say you fly 400 hours a year, which is on the high side for bizjet, that's around 4M a year. Double that, and you've covered.

I have a mate who owns a Mooney, flying it around 100 hours a year. All in, he expects to spend around 20K USD a year running it.

Your sums are not just off, they're on a different planet.

As for the rest of your rant, luckily for business aviation very few people with the resources to enter the game thinks like that,
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tsra
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:10 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I was in business of peddling bizjets. Most owners of large-cabin planes the cost of buying and ownership is proportionally less than the cars are for the pilots. For a private equity person making $100 million per year, the $5 million for personal transport isn’t a big deal-I spend more than 5% of my income on two cars.

GF


The Dave Ramsey rule that many people follow is all your vehicles should have a cost of no more than half your annual income - well above 5%.

That's a convenient figure with respect to a $5 million aircraft, because the general statistics the IRS publishes have their top income category as $10 million and above.

The IRS reports there are roughly 16,000 households in the US with this level of income.

I don't have a particular point to make with this. I just thought it was interesting to observe that so many people in the US could hypothetically rationalize an aircraft at that cost or higher as easily as you or I can rationalize a new car.


You can't get anything with 5 million USD, not even a Twotter.
10 million USD per annum is far from enough to afford anythinf bigger than a Cessna 182.
Just because an individual rakes in the big bucks, it's not a reason to spend that money on unnecessary vanities, because that's what this is really about.
Time is money but your next bizjet flight could crash and then your time is up. If your time is that valuable, you should avoid any kind of movement that could increase your risk of dying in an accident.
How many rich fools haven't we seen die in helicopter and bizjet crashes, trying to save precious time?

No thanks, I'd rather fly on a commercial flight where there is a much lower chance of dying than while walking on your way to the bakery at the corner of your street.


A large amount of biz jets have far more advanced cockpits than any airliner today. Couple that with initial/recurrent from Flight Safety or CAE and today’s “big boy” biz jet pilots are incredibly safe.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:13 pm

lightsaber wrote:
My employer flies private to allow private conversation and meetings.

Anyone willing to pay $8k will consider $16k. Once it is a negotiation team, why give up hours of strategy time?

Private jets cap F prices low. For while a private jet is outrageous in price to one F ticket, it isn't so bad for the team.


Hmm. Makes one wonder if a boardroom (instead of a lounge) might be a competitive advantage in F for a few airlines on ultra-premium-heavy routes. Maybe it could be located below the seating or something like that.

Might help companies justify F (as opposed to J) tickets, for example. They could also rent the boardroom for a pretty high price per hour or something like that.
 
MaksFly
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:25 pm

YYZLGA wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
My employer flies private to allow private conversation and meetings.

Anyone willing to pay $8k will consider $16k. Once it is a negotiation team, why give up hours of strategy time?

Private jets cap F prices low. For while a private jet is outrageous in price to one F ticket, it isn't so bad for the team.


Hmm. Makes one wonder if a boardroom (instead of a lounge) might be a competitive advantage in F for a few airlines on ultra-premium-heavy routes. Maybe it could be located below the seating or something like that.

Might help companies justify F (as opposed to J) tickets, for example. They could also rent the boardroom for a pretty high price per hour or something like that.


The thing is though... those lounges are there only to make time more passable.

Would you rather kill 2 hours waiting in a lounge or would you rather get straight on the plane and go?

Also, most FBOs (Fixed Base Operators) will have their own customer lounges.
 
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RayChuang
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:42 pm

I think a lot of big company CEO's now have their own bizjets so they can travel to other destinations on a short-turnaround basis. Disney CEO Robert Iger travels exclusively on private jets as part of company policy.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:03 pm

biz jets have many advantages.

1. they fly when you want
2. they have many more airports they can operate from
3. you travel in private
4. there is no person on the plane that you do not want on the plane
5. you can scratch your ass without fearing to see a video of it on social media

I often heard companies having a travel policy, that said"if you are too important to fly biz, you fly private jet". First class was seen as something suitable for TV stars.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:52 pm

There was a big flap a few years ago when the auto companies were seeking a bailout and their execs all flew to Washington in private jets. But their contracts forbade them from flying commercial.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
TWA902fly
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:33 pm

MaksFly wrote:
YYZLGA wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
My employer flies private to allow private conversation and meetings.

Anyone willing to pay $8k will consider $16k. Once it is a negotiation team, why give up hours of strategy time?

Private jets cap F prices low. For while a private jet is outrageous in price to one F ticket, it isn't so bad for the team.


Hmm. Makes one wonder if a boardroom (instead of a lounge) might be a competitive advantage in F for a few airlines on ultra-premium-heavy routes. Maybe it could be located below the seating or something like that.

Might help companies justify F (as opposed to J) tickets, for example. They could also rent the boardroom for a pretty high price per hour or something like that.


The thing is though... those lounges are there only to make time more passable.

Would you rather kill 2 hours waiting in a lounge or would you rather get straight on the plane and go?

Also, most FBOs (Fixed Base Operators) will have their own customer lounges.


I think YYZLGA was talking about on-board lounges, not airport lounges, and adding below-deck boardrooms to aircraft, and that perhaps these hypothetical boardrooms would be a better ROI than the lounges.

‘902
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Waterbomber
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:07 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Waterbomber,

You have an unnecessarily low opinion of privately operated bizjets, probably based on headline making low-budget charter operators. Just about every big name HNWI fly in their own planes-Gates has two Gulfstreams , Jobs, now his widow has a Gulfstream, Google’s flight operation is huge, just about every large or large-ish bunnies has a plane. United Tech has had a flight department for 80 years without an accident. A rather famous plumbing manufacturer has a large department with Bill Clinton’s firmer AF1 Pilot as the manager. Most private equity people have their own jets. I doubt this many people have assessed the risks as you have.

Yes, private pilots in over their heads in single pilot jet make headlines as do cheap charter operators. , professionally flown jets are operated as safely as an airliner. The image you have doesn’t fit the reality that exists outside the public eye.

GF


Actually exactly my point.
Where does Bill Gates need to hussle to when his Indian CEO is taking care of business. He can just relax and enjoy life, no need to hassle to university lectures on a bizjet.
Where does the Steve Jobs widow need to hussle to?
Paris for shopping? She can find the exact same LV bag at a local outlet or have it Fedexed for a lot less than taking a 12 hour Gulfstream flight.
Google, they can BBJ their way around the globe but what is the purpose of that? Will it result in a better market share over Yahoo in Japan? Doubt it.

I can see the merit of using bizjets and helicopters for industrial missions such as AOG, where every minute that equipment is down can cost a lot of money.
But in most cases, bizjets are being used for vanity, including by governments. It wouldn't kill them to fly to pre-determined and planned conferences on commercial flights, all it takes is a bit of forward planning.
I also think that MOL flying a big B737-700 around as his private jet is ridiculous. He is a CEO, he doesn't need to be home by 5pm, he can take a bit of hassle or do the job on the phone or send people who make a lot less money and cost less money to move around.

Answering the question of the OP, I think that there is a clear divide between vanity and real business.
Real businesses are cost-conscious and will only pay for justifyable costs.
Other businesses are being run as vanity projects and put unjustified value to (their own) individuals' time while no one man's time can be valuable enough that it is worth splashing cash like that.
If Bill Gates has a craving for an authentic Philadelphia cheese steak, he would put himself on a Gulfstream just to get it in Philadelphia, so to speak. Just because he can afford it. What he could also do is order a pizza or get a burger around the corner like everyone else.
Bill Gates has a lecture at a Boston university next week? His secretary can arrange an itinerary that could see him in and out of there with minimal loss of time. Bill Gates can keep using his brain while on the commercial flight, he doesn't need to switch it off.
Or for the cost of that bizjet flight, he can have Cisco set up a teleconference package and give that lecture straight from his home office, and have dinner at home with his family 15 minutes after he's done with the lecture.

Believe me, most of it is wasted in vanity.

So whether first class and fractional ownership compete is not a matter of choosing the most efficient method of transport, but how much individuals/companies want to splash on vanity.
The competition is not on the supply side. It is entirely pre-determined on the demand side by the (lack of) purpose of flying.

The notion of "time is money" only makes sense when there is a productive return that couldn't have been reached with other, cheaper methods.
 
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Phosphorus
Posts: 552
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:36 pm

TWA902fly wrote:
MaksFly wrote:
YYZLGA wrote:

Hmm. Makes one wonder if a boardroom (instead of a lounge) might be a competitive advantage in F for a few airlines on ultra-premium-heavy routes. Maybe it could be located below the seating or something like that.

Might help companies justify F (as opposed to J) tickets, for example. They could also rent the boardroom for a pretty high price per hour or something like that.


The thing is though... those lounges are there only to make time more passable.

Would you rather kill 2 hours waiting in a lounge or would you rather get straight on the plane and go?

Also, most FBOs (Fixed Base Operators) will have their own customer lounges.


I think YYZLGA was talking about on-board lounges, not airport lounges, and adding below-deck boardrooms to aircraft, and that perhaps these hypothetical boardrooms would be a better ROI than the lounges.

‘902


Wouldn't work. It's generally prohibited, by most companies, to discuss company internal matters in public spaces; and the entire commercial airliner is probably a definition of public space, in this sense.

Also, such on-board boardroom would be a #1 target for bugging -- either by governments, or information-harvesting companies (wasn't it Air France, that was routinely harvesting information in its premium cabins, having them thoroughly bugged?).
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airzona11
Posts: 1495
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Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:07 pm

It absolutely is. It is really not that much more expensive, especially if you have more than 1 person traveling. There is not only the time savings at the airport, but there are magnitudes of more airports available, getting closer to the origin and destination. Coast to coast commercial travel logistically and financially often times makes more sense, but I have seen where I work, regionally, if there are more than 2 people that need to travel, taking the corp jet is nearly a wash financially on last-minute travel, and when you do not have to commute to and from the major airports that aren't located close to the destination, it is all the better.

Private jet ownership is not the G650 on a 2-hour flight, there are countless options on small jets but many operators. I would not even consider it lavish. The fact is that "private" jet travel is growing and has obviosuly stimulated demand, but also is taking travel from the airlines.


Waterbomber wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Waterbomber,

You have an unnecessarily low opinion of privately operated bizjets, probably based on headline making low-budget charter operators. Just about every big name HNWI fly in their own planes-Gates has two Gulfstreams , Jobs, now his widow has a Gulfstream, Google’s flight operation is huge, just about every large or large-ish bunnies has a plane. United Tech has had a flight department for 80 years without an accident. A rather famous plumbing manufacturer has a large department with Bill Clinton’s firmer AF1 Pilot as the manager. Most private equity people have their own jets. I doubt this many people have assessed the risks as you have.

Yes, private pilots in over their heads in single pilot jet make headlines as do cheap charter operators. , professionally flown jets are operated as safely as an airliner. The image you have doesn’t fit the reality that exists outside the public eye.

GF


Actually exactly my point.
Where does Bill Gates need to hussle to when his Indian CEO is taking care of business. He can just relax and enjoy life, no need to hassle to university lectures on a bizjet.
Where does the Steve Jobs widow need to hussle to?
Paris for shopping? She can find the exact same LV bag at a local outlet or have it Fedexed for a lot less than taking a 12 hour Gulfstream flight.
Google, they can BBJ their way around the globe but what is the purpose of that? Will it result in a better market share over Yahoo in Japan? Doubt it.

I can see the merit of using bizjets and helicopters for industrial missions such as AOG, where every minute that equipment is down can cost a lot of money.
But in most cases, bizjets are being used for vanity, including by governments. It wouldn't kill them to fly to pre-determined and planned conferences on commercial flights, all it takes is a bit of forward planning.
I also think that MOL flying a big B737-700 around as his private jet is ridiculous. He is a CEO, he doesn't need to be home by 5pm, he can take a bit of hassle or do the job on the phone or send people who make a lot less money and cost less money to move around.

Answering the question of the OP, I think that there is a clear divide between vanity and real business.
Real businesses are cost-conscious and will only pay for justifyable costs.
Other businesses are being run as vanity projects and put unjustified value to (their own) individuals' time while no one man's time can be valuable enough that it is worth splashing cash like that.
If Bill Gates has a craving for an authentic Philadelphia cheese steak, he would put himself on a Gulfstream just to get it in Philadelphia, so to speak. Just because he can afford it. What he could also do is order a pizza or get a burger around the corner like everyone else.
Bill Gates has a lecture at a Boston university next week? His secretary can arrange an itinerary that could see him in and out of there with minimal loss of time. Bill Gates can keep using his brain while on the commercial flight, he doesn't need to switch it off.
Or for the cost of that bizjet flight, he can have Cisco set up a teleconference package and give that lecture straight from his home office, and have dinner at home with his family 15 minutes after he's done with the lecture.

Believe me, most of it is wasted in vanity.

So whether first class and fractional ownership compete is not a matter of choosing the most efficient method of transport, but how much individuals/companies want to splash on vanity.
The competition is not on the supply side. It is entirely pre-determined on the demand side by the (lack of) purpose of flying.

The notion of "time is money" only makes sense when there is a productive return that couldn't have been reached with other, cheaper methods.


What is the point of any travel then? Clearly commerical travel is more vanity than train, which is more than bus, which is more than car. Why travel?
 
777PHX
Posts: 962
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:36 am

Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:35 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I was in business of peddling bizjets. Most owners of large-cabin planes the cost of buying and ownership is proportionally less than the cars are for the pilots. For a private equity person making $100 million per year, the $5 million for personal transport isn’t a big deal-I spend more than 5% of my income on two cars.

GF


The Dave Ramsey rule that many people follow is all your vehicles should have a cost of no more than half your annual income - well above 5%.

That's a convenient figure with respect to a $5 million aircraft, because the general statistics the IRS publishes have their top income category as $10 million and above.

The IRS reports there are roughly 16,000 households in the US with this level of income.

I don't have a particular point to make with this. I just thought it was interesting to observe that so many people in the US could hypothetically rationalize an aircraft at that cost or higher as easily as you or I can rationalize a new car.


You can't get anything with 5 million USD, not even a Twotter.
10 million USD per annum is far from enough to afford anythinf bigger than a Cessna 182.
Just because an individual rakes in the big bucks, it's not a reason to spend that money on unnecessary vanities, because that's what this is really about.
Time is money but your next bizjet flight could crash and then your time is up. If your time is that valuable, you should avoid any kind of movement that could increase your risk of dying in an accident.
How many rich fools haven't we seen die in helicopter and bizjet crashes, trying to save precious time?

No thanks, I'd rather fly on a commercial flight where there is a much lower chance of dying than while walking on your way to the bakery at the corner of your street.


I have no idea what you're going on about here, but $5M will get you into a pretty nice King Air and $10M will get you into the entry level jets.

You can die crossing the street too. That's no reason not to do something.
 
777PHX
Posts: 962
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:36 am

Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:39 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Waterbomber,

You have an unnecessarily low opinion of privately operated bizjets, probably based on headline making low-budget charter operators. Just about every big name HNWI fly in their own planes-Gates has two Gulfstreams , Jobs, now his widow has a Gulfstream, Google’s flight operation is huge, just about every large or large-ish bunnies has a plane. United Tech has had a flight department for 80 years without an accident. A rather famous plumbing manufacturer has a large department with Bill Clinton’s firmer AF1 Pilot as the manager. Most private equity people have their own jets. I doubt this many people have assessed the risks as you have.

Yes, private pilots in over their heads in single pilot jet make headlines as do cheap charter operators. , professionally flown jets are operated as safely as an airliner. The image you have doesn’t fit the reality that exists outside the public eye.

GF


Actually exactly my point.
Where does Bill Gates need to hussle to when his Indian CEO is taking care of business. He can just relax and enjoy life, no need to hassle to university lectures on a bizjet.
Where does the Steve Jobs widow need to hussle to?
Paris for shopping? She can find the exact same LV bag at a local outlet or have it Fedexed for a lot less than taking a 12 hour Gulfstream flight.
Google, they can BBJ their way around the globe but what is the purpose of that? Will it result in a better market share over Yahoo in Japan? Doubt it.

I can see the merit of using bizjets and helicopters for industrial missions such as AOG, where every minute that equipment is down can cost a lot of money.
But in most cases, bizjets are being used for vanity, including by governments. It wouldn't kill them to fly to pre-determined and planned conferences on commercial flights, all it takes is a bit of forward planning.
I also think that MOL flying a big B737-700 around as his private jet is ridiculous. He is a CEO, he doesn't need to be home by 5pm, he can take a bit of hassle or do the job on the phone or send people who make a lot less money and cost less money to move around.

Answering the question of the OP, I think that there is a clear divide between vanity and real business.
Real businesses are cost-conscious and will only pay for justifyable costs.
Other businesses are being run as vanity projects and put unjustified value to (their own) individuals' time while no one man's time can be valuable enough that it is worth splashing cash like that.
If Bill Gates has a craving for an authentic Philadelphia cheese steak, he would put himself on a Gulfstream just to get it in Philadelphia, so to speak. Just because he can afford it. What he could also do is order a pizza or get a burger around the corner like everyone else.
Bill Gates has a lecture at a Boston university next week? His secretary can arrange an itinerary that could see him in and out of there with minimal loss of time. Bill Gates can keep using his brain while on the commercial flight, he doesn't need to switch it off.
Or for the cost of that bizjet flight, he can have Cisco set up a teleconference package and give that lecture straight from his home office, and have dinner at home with his family 15 minutes after he's done with the lecture.

Believe me, most of it is wasted in vanity.

So whether first class and fractional ownership compete is not a matter of choosing the most efficient method of transport, but how much individuals/companies want to splash on vanity.
The competition is not on the supply side. It is entirely pre-determined on the demand side by the (lack of) purpose of flying.

The notion of "time is money" only makes sense when there is a productive return that couldn't have been reached with other, cheaper methods.


If you're the Board of Directors and you're paying a guy $40M/yr to run your company, do you really want him losing entire days of productivity because of airplanes and airports?
 
32andBelow
Posts: 3967
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:51 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I was in business of peddling bizjets. Most owners of large-cabin planes the cost of buying and ownership is proportionally less than the cars are for the pilots. For a private equity person making $100 million per year, the $5 million for personal transport isn’t a big deal-I spend more than 5% of my income on two cars.

GF


The Dave Ramsey rule that many people follow is all your vehicles should have a cost of no more than half your annual income - well above 5%.

That's a convenient figure with respect to a $5 million aircraft, because the general statistics the IRS publishes have their top income category as $10 million and above.

The IRS reports there are roughly 16,000 households in the US with this level of income.

I don't have a particular point to make with this. I just thought it was interesting to observe that so many people in the US could hypothetically rationalize an aircraft at that cost or higher as easily as you or I can rationalize a new car.


You can't get anything with 5 million USD, not even a Twotter.
10 million USD per annum is far from enough to afford anythinf bigger than a Cessna 182.
Just because an individual rakes in the big bucks, it's not a reason to spend that money on unnecessary vanities, because that's what this is really about.
Time is money but your next bizjet flight could crash and then your time is up. If your time is that valuable, you should avoid any kind of movement that could increase your risk of dying in an accident.
How many rich fools haven't we seen die in helicopter and bizjet crashes, trying to save precious time?

No thanks, I'd rather fly on a commercial flight where there is a much lower chance of dying than while walking on your way to the bakery at the corner of your street.

You can get a crj2 or an md80
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3365
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:47 pm

waterbomber,

Envy is one of the several sins, so it’s not becoming. What Bill Gates or Mrs. Jobs wants to do and how to fly there is their business. If the time saved by using their own plane is valued by them as more valuable than the cost of the operation, it’s a good deal, not “vanity”.

As to your assertion of death and destruction, the professionally flown business jet has an annual accident rate, as defined by the NTSB, equal or better than the airlines. In 2014, it was airlines 0.16/100,000 flight hours to professional bizjets of 0.03/100,000 flight hours. Accidents in either operation being so rare that stats are meaningless. By the way, all GA, has a rate of 6.11/100,000 flight hours, hence your conclusions on GA safety.

I’d like to ask your experience operating or flying on business jets to judge how you based your opinions? A total of 17 years, as both line pilot, safety officer for a manufacturer, and chief pilot here. I’ve visited probably a hundred departments, been to a dozen NBAA events, several FSF Business Avistion Safety Seminars and two safety courses directly related to business operation safety. We use FOQA, in the same manner as the air carriers, have SMS in place and receive regular audits.

GF
 
eicvd
Posts: 1411
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:11 pm

Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:50 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Waterbomber,

You have an unnecessarily low opinion of privately operated bizjets, probably based on headline making low-budget charter operators. Just about every big name HNWI fly in their own planes-Gates has two Gulfstreams , Jobs, now his widow has a Gulfstream, Google’s flight operation is huge, just about every large or large-ish bunnies has a plane. United Tech has had a flight department for 80 years without an accident. A rather famous plumbing manufacturer has a large department with Bill Clinton’s firmer AF1 Pilot as the manager. Most private equity people have their own jets. I doubt this many people have assessed the risks as you have.

Yes, private pilots in over their heads in single pilot jet make headlines as do cheap charter operators. , professionally flown jets are operated as safely as an airliner. The image you have doesn’t fit the reality that exists outside the public eye.

GF


Actually exactly my point.
Where does Bill Gates need to hussle to when his Indian CEO is taking care of business. He can just relax and enjoy life, no need to hassle to university lectures on a bizjet.
Where does the Steve Jobs widow need to hussle to?
Paris for shopping? She can find the exact same LV bag at a local outlet or have it Fedexed for a lot less than taking a 12 hour Gulfstream flight.
Google, they can BBJ their way around the globe but what is the purpose of that? Will it result in a better market share over Yahoo in Japan? Doubt it.

I can see the merit of using bizjets and helicopters for industrial missions such as AOG, where every minute that equipment is down can cost a lot of money.
But in most cases, bizjets are being used for vanity, including by governments. It wouldn't kill them to fly to pre-determined and planned conferences on commercial flights, all it takes is a bit of forward planning.
I also think that MOL flying a big B737-700 around as his private jet is ridiculous. He is a CEO, he doesn't need to be home by 5pm, he can take a bit of hassle or do the job on the phone or send people who make a lot less money and cost less money to move around.

Answering the question of the OP, I think that there is a clear divide between vanity and real business.
Real businesses are cost-conscious and will only pay for justifyable costs.
Other businesses are being run as vanity projects and put unjustified value to (their own) individuals' time while no one man's time can be valuable enough that it is worth splashing cash like that.
If Bill Gates has a craving for an authentic Philadelphia cheese steak, he would put himself on a Gulfstream just to get it in Philadelphia, so to speak. Just because he can afford it. What he could also do is order a pizza or get a burger around the corner like everyone else.
Bill Gates has a lecture at a Boston university next week? His secretary can arrange an itinerary that could see him in and out of there with minimal loss of time. Bill Gates can keep using his brain while on the commercial flight, he doesn't need to switch it off.
Or for the cost of that bizjet flight, he can have Cisco set up a teleconference package and give that lecture straight from his home office, and have dinner at home with his family 15 minutes after he's done with the lecture.

Believe me, most of it is wasted in vanity.

So whether first class and fractional ownership compete is not a matter of choosing the most efficient method of transport, but how much individuals/companies want to splash on vanity.
The competition is not on the supply side. It is entirely pre-determined on the demand side by the (lack of) purpose of flying.

The notion of "time is money" only makes sense when there is a productive return that couldn't have been reached with other, cheaper methods.

O’Leary doesn’t fly around in that 737-700, it’s used as a crew trainer or for private hire, it’s not your typical BBJ. He might occasionally fly in the small fleet of Lears but the purpose of those is an engineer transport for any AOG situations.
COYBIB
 
iamlucky13
Posts: 1047
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:35 pm

Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:34 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I was in business of peddling bizjets. Most owners of large-cabin planes the cost of buying and ownership is proportionally less than the cars are for the pilots. For a private equity person making $100 million per year, the $5 million for personal transport isn’t a big deal-I spend more than 5% of my income on two cars.

GF


The Dave Ramsey rule that many people follow is all your vehicles should have a cost of no more than half your annual income - well above 5%.

That's a convenient figure with respect to a $5 million aircraft, because the general statistics the IRS publishes have their top income category as $10 million and above.

The IRS reports there are roughly 16,000 households in the US with this level of income.

I don't have a particular point to make with this. I just thought it was interesting to observe that so many people in the US could hypothetically rationalize an aircraft at that cost or higher as easily as you or I can rationalize a new car.


You can't get anything with 5 million USD, not even a Twotter.
10 million USD per annum is far from enough to afford anythinf bigger than a Cessna 182.


I thought $5 million sounded low, especially for large cabin, but he clarified he meant annual cost.

That said, $5 million will buy a used Learjet, as I understand it.

Waterbomber wrote:
Just because an individual rakes in the big bucks, it's not a reason to spend that money on unnecessary vanities, because that's what this is really about.


Of course that's not what it's all about. That doesn't mean people don't do it. If you had that kind of income, if you weren't not spending it on charitable causes (some do, some don't, most do at least a little), what else are you going to spend it on other than unnecessary vanities?
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 2790
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:59 am

The company I work for has at least 2 private jets. The CEO uses the falcon for international work and Monday to Friday the Lear is used as a corporate shuttle bringing people directly to the head office. When there are 8 people on it it works out cheaper than sending economy to the nearest airport 1.5hrs away. During the weekend “the family “ (owners) use it for their trips.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Image
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 330
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:40 am

JoeCanuck wrote:
I just read the thread on EY's rumored nixing of its Residence...which got me thinking.

It seems to me that if the costs were similar, then the convenience and prestige of flying on a private jet would make it the more desirable option.

At what price point differential, does it make more sense to fly private than commercial?


It has been happening since the mid-90’s...
The loss of Premium+ traffic began in the mid-90’s, well before 9/11, and became an epidemic after. Fractional ownership brought down the costs of ownership down so much, that even small businesses could justify the productivity increases.

The captive market at CVG in the 90’s is just one example, but a very good illustration of why. Delta controlled CVG, which then had several Fortune 500 Hq’s within the encatchment, and charged astronomical fares for seats. $1200+ Walk up fares for COACH on runs like CVG-LAX were the norm, not the exception. Delta was (and still is) extremely aggressive to competition in the fortress hubs, and any attempts to break into CVG were assured to big money losers. (Even charter attempts).
The bleed to lower-fare cities like IND (with ATA) was huge, but DL was making big bucks.

The loss and redirection of this traffic was a major contributing factor to United’s 2002 bankruptcy.
 
zrs70
Posts: 3691
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2000 4:08 am

Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:11 am

I think first class is hurting first class airline sales.
19 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2019
 
YYZatcboy
Posts: 1167
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:15 am

Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:27 am

Waterbomber wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Waterbomber,



You clearly haven't thought about the security aspect. Companies won't discuss business in commercial spaces. Bill Gates would probably be mobbed at the airport.
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Bricktop
Posts: 1375
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:57 am

Yeah, I can imagine lots of CEOs wake up at 4 am to catch the 7 am to ORD, then sit around to an hour and a half to catch an RJ to PIA.
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1375
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:04 am

I will concede a minor point to waterbomber on the vanity issue. Jeff Immelt of GE had a second jet follow him around in case the first went tech. Of course, at the same time he was a climate change warrior, to complete the picture.
 
Waterbomber
Posts: 849
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:51 am

Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:57 am

Bricktop wrote:
Yeah, I can imagine lots of CEOs wake up at 4 am to catch the 7 am to ORD, then sit around to an hour and a half to catch an RJ to PIA.


Most CEO's would fly in the night before and stay at a nice hotel.
I've once crossed the entire top management of Federal Mogul including the CEO heading to the airport early in the morning to catch a Westbound TATL flight.
They could have been on a Falcon 900ex EASy from a closer by airport but were flying back one-stop with an airline.
A 9 hours Falcon 900 flight will easily set you back 6 figures. If the aircraft has to fly back to avoid sitting idle for a longer period, and a new charter needs to be organised for a return leg, you're halfway towards a 7 figure bill. No amount of first class flying would come anywhere near those figures even with a full boardroom on corporate fares.

What you talk about is an exception rather than the rule.

Roger Federer and Serena Williams are about the only tennis players who can afford to fly exclusively private. But they are the best tennis players of all times. And even so, Roger is only a fractional owner with Netjets Europe and he can justify it because he needs to move to the first round of the next tournament on a Monday after playing a final on a Sunday. Maximising rest at the hotel makes sense when winning a round can pay for the flight.
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1462
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:28 pm

I do work with a Fortune 250 manufacturer which has plants all over the country - sometimes in some rather rural places where flying to the corporate head quarters would indeed require a double hop. The company has three corporate jets - two are Cessna citations.

The company has several overseas plants - primarily Europe but also Mexico. For travel to Europe, senior management is business class both ways. With the advent of premium economy on many transatlantic carriers, the rule for mid level management and for employees on travel is business class on overnight sectors and premium economy on the daylight sectors. Transpac is business owing to flight length.
 
clearskies1
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:24 am

Re: Are Shared Ownership Private Jets Hurting 1st Class Airline Sales?

Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:43 pm

Water bomber needs to get out of a cramped airline terminal and see the real side of corporate aviation.
Corporate jets may be smaller but newer mid to large cabin jets are far quiter than any airliner. Claustrophobic-have you been on a CRJ200 with 50 passengers lately.

Any corporate jets are far more capable than the average airliner in weather and safety. Many have HUD, synthetic vision, CAT II landing capability. Crew training/experience and procedures at any reputable flight department is on par with the airlines. Corporate seven 5000 plus airports in the US not 500 like the airlines. Most are served with ILS or RNAV precision approaches. This is not the 60's anymore.

Maintenance programs on a corporate jet far exceed those of an airliner. Dispatch reliability is in the 98-99% range. Overhauls and major inspections are on a much tighter timeline.

Flying overseas and getting flight authorizations is no harder than calling for an airline reservation.

Time is money. Executives want to work other own schedule, get home to their families and be as productive as possible. Corporate jets are a business tool not an extravagance.
As it was told to me many years ago. A corporate jet is not about getting out to the meeting. It is about getting BACK home and have all the executives at the office to build and grow the business.

Airlines and corporate jets all provide the same service. Getting people to their destinations safely. Some prefer mass transportation others prefer private transportation anther own schedules to nearby airports in quiet private comfort.

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