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SR380
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Russia’s Ilyushin aircraft company offers Il-96 jet to Argentina

Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:39 pm

Ilyushin was presented in the Argentinian capital as part of a joint meeting of the Russia-Argentina Council of Entrepreneurs prior to the meeting of G20 leaders

Ilyushin was presented in the Argentinian capital as part of a joint meeting of the Russia-Argentina Council of Entrepreneurs prior to the meeting of G20 leaders
MOSCOW, December 5. /TASS/. Russia’s Ilyushin Aircraft Company suggested that Argentina should purchase Il-96 jets of various specifications during the talks in Buenos Aires, Deputy Director General on external economic affairs Vladimir Simakov told TASS.
"Ilyushin offers Il-96 jet to the Argentinian side, with various variations and modifications - passenger, freight, medical and VIP version - available at the request of the customer," he said.
Ilyushin was presented in the Argentinian capital as part of a joint meeting of the Russia-Argentina Council of Entrepreneurs prior to the meeting of G20 leaders.
Another proposal made by the company was to set up a logistics operator in the region, Simakov said. The possibility of cooperation on projects of Il-103 and Il-114 jets was also discussed at the meeting, he added. "As a result of the forum, the delegation of Ilyushin had a number of efficient meetings with potential partners regarding issues of potential cooperation within the proposed projects and a close collaboration to be established in the field," Simakov noted.

More:
http://tass.com/economy/1034465

What are your thoughts? Does the Il-96 still have a chance besied from Rossiya, Cubana, Syrian Air, Air Koryo, etc...
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Russia’s Ilyushin aircraft company offers Il-96 jet to Argentina

Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:45 pm

Is this a joke? Did they miss the change of government here 3 years ago? Or did they mix up Argentina with Venezuela? Maybe they could have had a chance with the late Kirchner mafia, but then, they probably wouldn't have gotten paid...
 
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Channex757
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Re: Russia’s Ilyushin aircraft company offers Il-96 jet to Argentina

Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:59 pm

Knee jerk comments aside....

Ilyushin has been looking to modernise the design. New engines for a start, which would improve considerably the otherwise poor economics of the plane. There's even the distant possibility of reimagining it as as twinjet. The Putin Government would like to see a domestic widebody choice rather than the current poor offering which nobody seems to want.

Export sales would obviously help. It would be based on the Il-96-400 version so there's a freighter version ready to roll out as well. Argentina would be a possibility as credit could be arranged for AR that otherwise might be a backbreaker for a western design.

Argentina also looks to be emerging from a financial nightmare and this is the moment when foreign partners can come back in and invest. Russia is no different; they obviously see the potential for investing and that includes offering a widebody just at a moment when a big player like GECAS is stumbling and might not be able to offer subprime leasing.

It isn't a sure thing by any means but then again, consider what's being offered and the credit angle. This is a play offering a Russian version of the 747-8i.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Russia’s Ilyushin aircraft company offers Il-96 jet to Argentina

Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:14 pm

Channex757 wrote:
Knee jerk comments aside....

Ilyushin has been looking to modernise the design. New engines for a start, which would improve considerably the otherwise poor economics of the plane. There's even the distant possibility of reimagining it as as twinjet. The Putin Government would like to see a domestic widebody choice rather than the current poor offering which nobody seems to want.

Export sales would obviously help. It would be based on the Il-96-400 version so there's a freighter version ready to roll out as well. Argentina would be a possibility as credit could be arranged for AR that otherwise might be a backbreaker for a western design.

Argentina also looks to be emerging from a financial nightmare and this is the moment when foreign partners can come back in and invest. Russia is no different; they obviously see the potential for investing and that includes offering a widebody just at a moment when a big player like GECAS is stumbling and might not be able to offer subprime leasing.

It isn't a sure thing by any means but then again, consider what's being offered and the credit angle. This is a play offering a Russian version of the 747-8i.

Knee jerk comments?
So, do you suggest the government that sold a VIP 757 because of the costs to operate and maintain it would buy an IL96-400?

Or would AR buy an IL96-400 to replace its last A343s? Does the IL96-400 even have the range for FCO-EZE, for example? And what exactly would be the advantage over the A330s AR currently operates?

Or, lastly, should FlyBondi buy it to operate on trunk routes like EZE-COR? (Cause it ain't taking off from Aeroparque or El Palomar.)

Heck, the truth is nobody loves the IL96. Not Cubana. Not even Aeroflot (who rid themselves of them as soon as they could). It's a great plane to fly (have done so many times), but a lousy one to operate and maintain.
 
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Re: Russia’s Ilyushin aircraft company offers Il-96 jet to Argentina

Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:49 pm

Even if they were sold very cheaply to Argentina, what would be the advantages over buying Boeing or Airbus equivalents, if one brings in such matters as maintenance?
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Russia’s Ilyushin aircraft company offers Il-96 jet to Argentina

Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:57 pm

DrPaul wrote:
Even if they were sold very cheaply to Argentina, what would be the advantages over buying Boeing or Airbus equivalents, if one brings in such matters as maintenance?

None whatsoever, of course. The Russian planemakers are, unfortunately, dead men walking - or flying - due mainly to a lack of a reliable after sales support network for maintenance and spare parts.
Last edited by MalevTU134 on Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Russia’s Ilyushin aircraft company offers Il-96 jet to Argentina

Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:25 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
DrPaul wrote:
Even if they were sold very cheaply to Argentina, what would be the advantages over buying Boeing or Airbus equivalents, if one brings in such matters as maintenance?

None whatsoever, of course. The Russian planemakers are, unfortunately dead men walking - or flying - due mainly to a lack of a reliable after sales support network for maintenance and spare parts.

The added cost of fuel and maintenance would be $500,000 USD more per month and since it would be imported, it would be a hard currency.

Plus there is the cost of flight delays and missed flights which we can estimate at $20,000 to $50,000 per incident. Those also drive away high yeild time sensitive passengers

For example, DL received an 11% fare premium for being more on time. One would assume a similar deficit for poor service (89% yeild, which is a certain loss making yeild) for less stellar than expected punctuality.

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dcajet
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Re: Russia’s Ilyushin aircraft company offers Il-96 jet to Argentina

Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:58 pm

One has got to give them to the Russians for trying. But it won't happen. More chances of hell freezing over.

During last weekend's visit by Putin during the G20, the Russian delegation came with quite a few proposals for joint businesses with Argentina, including building nuclear power plants through Rosatom. It may all come to naught though, as it has been reported that Argentina's president, Mauricio Macri, cracked a joke about his Foreign Affairs Minister's height, right in front of Vladimir Vladimirovich, who is only a few inches taller and, apparently, quite self conscious about it. He was not amused..
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Re: Russia’s Ilyushin aircraft company offers Il-96 jet to Argentina

Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:21 pm

Channex757 wrote:
Knee jerk comments aside....

Ilyushin has been looking to modernise the design. New engines for a start, which would improve considerably the otherwise poor economics of the plane. There's even the distant possibility of reimagining it as as twinjet. The Putin Government would like to see a domestic widebody choice rather than the current poor offering which nobody seems to want.

Export sales would obviously help. It would be based on the Il-96-400 version so there's a freighter version ready to roll out as well. Argentina would be a possibility as credit could be arranged for AR that otherwise might be a backbreaker for a western design.

Argentina also looks to be emerging from a financial nightmare and this is the moment when foreign partners can come back in and invest. Russia is no different; they obviously see the potential for investing and that includes offering a widebody just at a moment when a big player like GECAS is stumbling and might not be able to offer subprime leasing.

It isn't a sure thing by any means but then again, consider what's being offered and the credit angle. This is a play offering a Russian version of the 747-8i.


Sorry, but the IL-96 is not even close to the 747 in size, range or performance.
 
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DrPaul
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Re: Russia’s Ilyushin aircraft company offers Il-96 jet to Argentina

Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:58 pm

This thread made me remember that a few years back, when I was doing some researching on reactions in Britain to Khrushchev's 'Secret Speech' of 1956 and changes in Soviet policies, I noticed that one daily newspaper was worried about the possibility that the Soviet Union would start marketing its products outwith its zone of influence, and one example was selling airliners to various non-Soviet Bloc areas, including Latin America. That didn't happen either.
 
dcajet
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Re: Russia’s Ilyushin aircraft company offers Il-96 jet to Argentina

Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:26 pm

DrPaul wrote:
This thread made me remember that a few years back, when I was doing some researching on reactions in Britain to Khrushchev's 'Secret Speech' of 1956 and changes in Soviet policies, I noticed that one daily newspaper was worried about the possibility that the Soviet Union would start marketing its products outwith its zone of influence, and one example was selling airliners to various non-Soviet Bloc areas, including Latin America. That didn't happen either.


Back in 1972-1973, when Chile was governed by Salvador Allende (the only time in history when an open Communist was chosen via popular vote to be president), his government wanted to get IL62s for LAN Chile to replace the 707. The airline pilots went on strike as a means of protest. It did not happen and on 11/9/73 Allende was deposed.

Aside from Peru, where the Soviets and then the Russians found a willing market where to sell weapons and planes (mostly military), the rest of South America has not been receptive to the Russian sales efforts. (Chavista Venezuela being the exception).
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Re: Russia’s Ilyushin aircraft company offers Il-96 jet to Argentina

Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:42 pm

They should try and produce IL-96 with two engines.
 
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Re: Russia’s Ilyushin aircraft company offers Il-96 jet to Argentina

Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:46 pm

If the Russians want to play and have fun, they should try their luck elsewhere in the world. Vodka does not go with Tango
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JoeCanuck
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Re: Russia’s Ilyushin aircraft company offers Il-96 jet to Argentina

Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:46 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
DrPaul wrote:
Even if they were sold very cheaply to Argentina, what would be the advantages over buying Boeing or Airbus equivalents, if one brings in such matters as maintenance?

None whatsoever, of course. The Russian planemakers are, unfortunately, dead men walking - or flying - due mainly to a lack of a reliable after sales support network for maintenance and spare parts.


Russians can design good aircraft. What they can't seem to accomplish, is reliably producing them in quantities with high enough consistent quality to make them attractive to airlines...and they completely drop the ball when it comes to after sales service.

By most accounts, the SSJ is a great aircraft but it has been ham strung by lousy company, (for lack of a better word), support.

I doubt the IL-96 would be a good deal for any airline under any condition. Getting them for free would still be paying too much.
What the...?
 
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Channex757
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Re: Russia’s Ilyushin aircraft company offers Il-96 jet to Argentina

Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:15 pm

rbavfan wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
Knee jerk comments aside....

Ilyushin has been looking to modernise the design. New engines for a start, which would improve considerably the otherwise poor economics of the plane. There's even the distant possibility of reimagining it as as twinjet. The Putin Government would like to see a domestic widebody choice rather than the current poor offering which nobody seems to want.

Export sales would obviously help. It would be based on the Il-96-400 version so there's a freighter version ready to roll out as well. Argentina would be a possibility as credit could be arranged for AR that otherwise might be a backbreaker for a western design.

Argentina also looks to be emerging from a financial nightmare and this is the moment when foreign partners can come back in and invest. Russia is no different; they obviously see the potential for investing and that includes offering a widebody just at a moment when a big player like GECAS is stumbling and might not be able to offer subprime leasing.

It isn't a sure thing by any means but then again, consider what's being offered and the credit angle. This is a play offering a Russian version of the 747-8i.


Sorry, but the IL-96 is not even close to the 747 in size, range or performance.

Went straight over your head then....

The IL-96 stretch version (the larger 400 series) isn't a 747-8 competitor. What it is, is a 747-8i type of offering. Namely a modernised airframe with latest generation engines. Russia's engine makers are designing and testing next generation engines equivalent to a GEnx or at least approaching that efficiency. So, re-engine the IL-96 stretch, take out some extra weight and it's a product that can at least be offered with preferential financing.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Russia’s Ilyushin aircraft company offers Il-96 jet to Argentina

Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:31 pm

Channex757 wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
Knee jerk comments aside....

Ilyushin has been looking to modernise the design. New engines for a start, which would improve considerably the otherwise poor economics of the plane. There's even the distant possibility of reimagining it as as twinjet. The Putin Government would like to see a domestic widebody choice rather than the current poor offering which nobody seems to want.

Export sales would obviously help. It would be based on the Il-96-400 version so there's a freighter version ready to roll out as well. Argentina would be a possibility as credit could be arranged for AR that otherwise might be a backbreaker for a western design.

Argentina also looks to be emerging from a financial nightmare and this is the moment when foreign partners can come back in and invest. Russia is no different; they obviously see the potential for investing and that includes offering a widebody just at a moment when a big player like GECAS is stumbling and might not be able to offer subprime leasing.

It isn't a sure thing by any means but then again, consider what's being offered and the credit angle. This is a play offering a Russian version of the 747-8i.


Sorry, but the IL-96 is not even close to the 747 in size, range or performance.

Went straight over your head then....

The IL-96 stretch version (the larger 400 series) isn't a 747-8 competitor. What it is, is a 747-8i type of offering. Namely a modernised airframe with latest generation engines. Russia's engine makers are designing and testing next generation engines equivalent to a GEnx or at least approaching that efficiency. So, re-engine the IL-96 stretch, take out some extra weight and it's a product that can at least be offered with preferential financing.

As has been stated repeatedly here: the problem is the reliability of the after sales department. Aircraft breaks down in LIM, USH, MIA, POA or MAD...how fast can you get spare parts there? The fact that now even the engines are Russian-made just adds complication to this issue.

Preferential financing isn't THE issue in this.
 
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Re: Russia’s Ilyushin aircraft company offers Il-96 jet to Argentina

Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:37 pm

Why would anyone buy a passenger quad that is inferior in every way to a size comparable twin?
19:SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS DOH BLR KTM MFM MEX MSY BWI BNA
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Russia’s Ilyushin aircraft company offers Il-96 jet to Argentina

Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:04 pm

Antarius wrote:
Why would anyone buy a passenger quad that is inferior in every way to a size comparable twin?

Exactly. According to Wikipedia, its range with full payload is 5600nm. So absolutely useless for AR. FCO, BCN and MAD would be effectively out of range.
 
c933103
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Re: Russia’s Ilyushin aircraft company offers Il-96 jet to Argentina

Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:11 pm

Depends on contract and currency, it might be able to be structure in a deal that would be advantageous to Argentinian while Russia parties covering some losses
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MalevTU134
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Re: Russia’s Ilyushin aircraft company offers Il-96 jet to Argentina

Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:26 pm

c933103 wrote:
Depends on contract and currency, it might be able to be structure in a deal that would be advantageous to Argentinian while Russia parties covering some losses

And this would compensate AR how, exactly, for an aircraft that is unable to perform most of their long-haul flights?
 
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SR380
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Re: Russia’s Ilyushin aircraft company offers Il-96 jet to Argentina

Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:40 pm

While I have to agree that I don't see AR using the Il-96, nor the government (as they can not keep a 757 running), is there any possibility for their army?
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Russia’s Ilyushin aircraft company offers Il-96 jet to Argentina

Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:50 pm

SR380 wrote:
While I have to agree that I don't see AR using the Il-96, nor the government (as they can not keep a 757 running), is there any possibility for their army?

Zero credibility in the armed forces for Russian and Chinese made hardware. The fact that a Russian mission looked for A.R.A. San Juan, the Navy's lost submarine for months and found squat, and then a US search team found it in a few weeks, doesn't help either, I suppose.
 
stratclub
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Re: Russia’s Ilyushin aircraft company offers Il-96 jet to Argentina

Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:56 pm

Of all of the things AR doesn't need is Russian aircraft. But I guess if they are going to continue to make stupid political decisions involving corruption etc, at least buying Russian aircraft would line somebody's pockets.Corruption and poor government management does have a plus side for some.

I'm going to stop there because I don't want my comment to turn political................
 
dcajet
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Re: Russia’s Ilyushin aircraft company offers Il-96 jet to Argentina

Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:23 am

While countries that trade with each other (as is the case of the Russian Federation and the Republic of Argentina) pitch products for export all the time, there is no chance that any Argentinian airline nor the government will buy any Russian planes, particularly the IL-96. Won't happen, now or in the foreseeable future. This news comes from the Russian state owned TASS. That is all one needs to know.
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flee
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Re: Russia’s Ilyushin aircraft company offers Il-96 jet to Argentina

Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:42 am

One major weakness of Russian exports is the lack of after sales service and supply of spare parts at reasonable cost. This will be the first item I will be asking of any Russian company even before I look at their products.
 
MD11junkie
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Re: Russia’s Ilyushin aircraft company offers Il-96 jet to Argentina

Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:10 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
Knee jerk comments?
So, do you suggest the government that sold a VIP 757 because of the costs to operate and maintain it would buy an IL96-400?


The plane is still up for sale and has been that way for 3 years (January 2016). And the sale of the 757 is great publicity stunt by this Administration. A poor decision IMO. The problem is the plane is nearing a heavy, costly maintenance check and the Government does not want to pony up the money. However, given all the expenditures on travel via Commercial Airlines and Charters, that check should have been well paid off.

T-01 is still OOS at PAL.

MalevTU134 wrote:
Or would AR buy an IL96-400 to replace its last A343s? Does the IL96-400 even have the range for FCO-EZE, for example? And what exactly would be the advantage over the A330s AR currently operates?


Illyushin knows they have an inferior product, operationally speaking to their western counterparts. However, attractive financing is what usually lures Argentina into a deal. The IL96 has much better chances (if any) of seeing light in an Argentine paintjob as business jet than as a commercial airliner.

President Macri is trying desperately not to alienate himself from the Russians completely as cooperation between Rosatom and Nucleoelectrica Argentina, as well as key-cooperation between Gazprom and YPF are needed for the country to improve its energy production matrix. So... who knows. This is politics.

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AtomicGarden
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Re: Russia’s Ilyushin aircraft company offers Il-96 jet to Argentina

Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:10 pm

If Russia wants to sell us something, it better be military hardware, not pax planes. Not a chance in hell.
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JoeCanuck
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Re: Russia’s Ilyushin aircraft company offers Il-96 jet to Argentina

Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:05 am

AtomicGarden wrote:
If Russia wants to sell us something, it better be military hardware, not pax planes. Not a chance in hell.


Is there after sales support any better with their military hardware?
What the...?
 
dcajet
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Re: Russia’s Ilyushin aircraft company offers Il-96 jet to Argentina

Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:09 am

AtomicGarden wrote:
If Russia wants to sell us something, it better be military hardware, not pax planes. Not a chance in hell.


I think the only Russian military equipment used by Argentina are a # of Mil MI-17 helicopters used mostly for operations in Antarctica.
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AtomicGarden
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Re: Russia’s Ilyushin aircraft company offers Il-96 jet to Argentina

Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:33 am

JoeCanuck wrote:
AtomicGarden wrote:
If Russia wants to sell us something, it better be military hardware, not pax planes. Not a chance in hell.


Is there after sales support any better with their military hardware?


I've no idea, but can't get any worse than what we have currently.

dcajet wrote:
I think the only Russian military equipment used by Argentina are a # of Mil MI-17 helicopters used mostly for operations in Antarctica.


That's right, AFAIK
You killed a black astronaut, Cyril! That's like killing a unicorn!

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