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Midwestindy
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Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:15 pm

Today Delta announced a plethora of new and increased services at BOS, I saw it posted in the OAG but I thought this deserved its own thread
https://news.delta.com/delta-adds-more- ... hington-dc

Amsterdam, Netherlands- KLM launches new service - March 31
London-Heathrow- Additional daylight trip by Virgin Atlantic - April 1
Cleveland- Delta launches new 3x daily service* - April 1
Pittsburgh- Delta increases from 4x to 5x trips - April 2
Seoul-Incheon, South Korea - Korean launches 5x weekly service - April 12
Jacksonville, Fla. - Delta increases from 2x to 3x trips - April 14
Nashville, Tenn. - Delta increases from 3x to 4x trips - April 15
Edinburgh, Scotland - Delta launches seasonal daily service - May 23
Lisbon, Portugal - Delta launches seasonal daily service - May 23
Indianapolis - Delta increases from 3x to 4x trips - June 8
Philadelphia - Delta increases from 4x to 6x trips - June 8
Chicago O’Hare - Delta launches new 5x daily service - Sept. 9**
Newark, N.J. - Delta launches new 4x daily service - Sept. 9
Washington, D.C. (Reagan National) - Delta launches new 6x daily service - Sept. 9**


This is huge for their battle with B6, now it should be interesting to see the response from B6.....

Surprising they added CLE so quickly, after UA dropped it.......
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enilria
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:25 pm

Already being discussed here
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1410333
 
floridaflyboy
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:33 pm

enilria wrote:
Already being discussed here
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1410333


While the OAG thread is amazing, sometimes news from it is going to spawn its own thread. Just because it is being discussed there, doesn't mean significant items can't be discussed in their own thread.

That said, it's always great to see new destinations. But in this case, I'm even more intrigued by the frequency increases. Must mean a lot of routes from BOS are really maturing into their own. Never saw the day DL would be 4x daily Ejets to BOS. Here's hoping it's not just to pre-empt a B6 announcement.

PHL is another interesting one. Moving PHL-JFK to PHL-BOS always struck me as a bit experimental. The additional frequency must indicate a success.
Good goes around!
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:35 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Surprising they added CLE so quickly, after UA dropped it.......
That is interesting. Looks like it had to be pretty last minute as the DL CLE add doesn't appear in the OAG thread with all the other DL BOS adds.
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Midwestindy
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:38 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Surprising they added CLE so quickly, after UA dropped it.......
That is interesting. Looks like it had to be pretty last minute as the DL CLE add doesn't appear in the OAG thread with all the other DL BOS adds.


Considering flights aren't bookable for 2 weeks, they definitely rushed CLE into the press release once they realized that UA was dropping it. Shows they wanted to get the jump on B6 before they could have the chance to increase frequency.
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compensateme
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:40 pm

Gotta wonder if the market will be able to sustain all this new capacity, or if any ugly fare war will break out (largely) between DL and B6. It’ll be interesting to see how the BOS, SEA, DEN, etc. fare during the next recession...
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Midwestindy
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:40 pm

"Delta and partners will offer up to 152 daily departures from Logan with these additions, an increase of nearly 30 daily departures compared to 2018.

Additionally, in partnership with Massport, Delta plans to assume operations at all gates at Logan's Terminal A by the third quarter of 2019.

Delta also plans by 2020 the expansion of its Delta Sky Club near gate A18, including new showers, expanded seating and a reimagined food and beverage area.

"Delta is uniquely positioned to take Boston to the world in 2019," said Charlie Schewe, Delta's Director — New England Sales. "Our broad service and award-winning products in the airport and on board our aircraft further cement Delta as Boston's No. 1 global carrier taking Bostonians to the destinations they value most — both domestically as well as internationally.""

Very interesting
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cledaybuck
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:41 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Surprising they added CLE so quickly, after UA dropped it.......
That is interesting. Looks like it had to be pretty last minute as the DL CLE add doesn't appear in the OAG thread with all the other DL BOS adds.


Considering flights aren't bookable for 2 weeks, they definitely rushed CLE into the press release once they realized that UA was dropping it. Shows they wanted to get the jump on B6 before they could have the chance to increase frequency.
And they are starting it April 1, when all the other new markets start September 9. I wonder if they even know where the plane is coming from yet?
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
usairways85
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:44 pm

floridaflyboy wrote:
enilria wrote:


While the OAG thread is amazing, sometimes news from it is going to spawn its own thread. Just because it is being discussed there, doesn't mean significant items can't be discussed in their own thread.

That said, it's always great to see new destinations. But in this case, I'm even more intrigued by the frequency increases. Must mean a lot of routes from BOS are really maturing into their own. Never saw the day DL would be 4x daily Ejets to BOS. Here's hoping it's not just to pre-empt a B6 announcement.

PHL is another interesting one. Moving PHL-JFK to PHL-BOS always struck me as a bit experimental. The additional frequency must indicate a success.

The routes serve different purposes. PHL-JFK had to have been 95+% connecting. PHL-BOS is a large business market so it will likely be more of a balance between O&D and connections.

After B6 recently went from ~5 to 6 x day (a few flights do not operate on the weekends) on BOS-PHL, I believe they are upping to 7x in the Spring. This was announced shortly after DL's announcement of entering BOS-PHL
 
RL757PVD
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:45 pm

Going for the B6 juggular at BOS... or at least their most valuable passengers
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Midwestindy
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:47 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
That is interesting. Looks like it had to be pretty last minute as the DL CLE add doesn't appear in the OAG thread with all the other DL BOS adds.


Considering flights aren't bookable for 2 weeks, they definitely rushed CLE into the press release once they realized that UA was dropping it. Shows they wanted to get the jump on B6 before they could have the chance to increase frequency.
And they are starting it April 1, when all the other new markets start September 9. I wonder if they even know where the plane is coming from yet?


Good point, they would have to adjust the schedule on pretty short notice to find a plane(s) for 3x daily service

Another interesting point is they haven't added potential monopoly routes, SDF, SAT, MEM, e.t.c, but have decided to go after major business markets. This may hurt revenue in the short-term, but will pay dividends in weakening B6's position in BOS for the long-run.
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airbazar
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:49 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Surprising they added CLE so quickly, after UA dropped it.......
That is interesting. Looks like it had to be pretty last minute as the DL CLE add doesn't appear in the OAG thread with all the other DL BOS adds.


Considering flights aren't bookable for 2 weeks, they definitely rushed CLE into the press release once they realized that UA was dropping it. Shows they wanted to get the jump on B6 before they could have the chance to increase frequency.

I don't understand some people's obsession with treating businesses like a sporting event. IMO DL is not "in a battle" with B6 at BOS. The market is large enough for both airlines. If anything both DL and B6 are expanding and pushing out UA and AA in the process. If you look at all of those new routes: EWR, ORD, CLE, DCA, PHL, they are all UA and AA hubs. But at the end of the day, DL is adding these routes because their corporate clients are asking for them. It's right there in the press release. There's no reason to try and make it more than it actually is.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:57 pm

BOS-EWR 4 x daily? Why bother?
 
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enilria
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:00 pm

floridaflyboy wrote:
enilria wrote:
Already being discussed here
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1410333


While the OAG thread is amazing, sometimes news from it is going to spawn its own thread.

It's right in the title, however.
"OAG Changes 12/9/2018:DL Adds BOS-EWR/DCA/ORD"
 
tphuang
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:00 pm

RL757PVD wrote:
Going for the B6 juggular at BOS... or at least their most valuable passengers


You seem to keep insisting B6 is in trouble at BOS. You do realize that DL is the one bleeding money on all their new routes, right? B6 is going to make a lot less money in BOS, but that's part of the turf war.

compensateme wrote:
Gotta wonder if the market will be able to sustain all this new capacity, or if any ugly fare war will break out (largely) between DL and B6. It’ll be interesting to see how the BOS, SEA, DEN, etc. fare during the next recession...


BOS fares have to be some of the lowest in the country. The yields I have been looking at are even lower than SEA. I don't think this will be sustainable, but we will see what happens.

Midwestindy wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

Considering flights aren't bookable for 2 weeks, they definitely rushed CLE into the press release once they realized that UA was dropping it. Shows they wanted to get the jump on B6 before they could have the chance to increase frequency.
And they are starting it April 1, when all the other new markets start September 9. I wonder if they even know where the plane is coming from yet?


Good point, they would have to adjust the schedule on pretty short notice to find a plane(s) for 3x daily service

Another interesting point is they haven't added potential monopoly routes, SDF, SAT, MEM, e.t.c, but have decided to go after major business markets. This may hurt revenue in the short-term, but will pay dividends in weakening B6's position in BOS for the long-run.

Well, they've long had huge corporate customer advantage over B6 in NYC due to all the slots they have at LGA + JFK, but haven't hurt B6 at JFK at all. And at BOS, they have much fewer gates. And all the routes they added have worse schedule and flying regional jets.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:01 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
BOS-EWR 4 x daily? Why bother?


To appeal/attract to travelers loyal to SkyMiles and/or appeal/attract corporate contracts. DL is undoubtedly targeting BOS POS travelers who now fly UA out of convience. (Among many examples I could cite), same reason AA operates LAX-ATL twice daily. In the grand scheme of things, four flights will cover the departure times people want.
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Victorville
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:04 pm

Does this coincide with WN moving out of A?
 
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chrisnh
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:08 pm

Does this also short-circuit B6? In other words, do these moves by DL push B6 closer to being acquired? It would be nice if Massport agreed to let DL have its own customs/immigration in Terminal A. With the new airlines coming into E, Massport ought to want anything that would lessen the burden on that Terminal.
Last edited by chrisnh on Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:12 pm

airbazar wrote:
DL is adding these routes because their corporate clients are asking for them. It's right there in the press release. There's no reason to try and make it more than it actually is.


Except who are they competing for those corporate clients with.......B6

Victorville wrote:
Does this coincide with WN moving out of A?


Yes

tphuang wrote:
Well, they've long had huge corporate customer advantage over B6 in NYC due to all the slots they have at LGA + JFK, but haven't hurt B6 at JFK at all. And at BOS, they have much fewer gates. And all the routes they added have worse schedule and flying regional jets.


Yes, but DL has the advantage of a better int'l network for business passengers out of BOS. Not to mention, DL will be willing to take heavy losses out of BOS to try and maintain/grow market share.
Last edited by Midwestindy on Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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compensateme
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:13 pm

chrisnh wrote:
Does this also short-circuit B6? In other words, do these moves by DL push B6 closer to being acquired? I realize these DL additions are primarily on RJs, but still...that's a lot of flights to a bunch of second-tier cities.


You’re jumping to the conclusion that these routes will be successful for DL, at the expense for B6, already? I don’t think the market will be able to sustain the capacity that’s been/being injected into it, and I believe DL is willing to endure modest losses in the short-term... but I wouldn’t declare them the winner quite yet.
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RL757PVD
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:19 pm

tphuang wrote:
RL757PVD wrote:
Going for the B6 juggular at BOS... or at least their most valuable passengers


You seem to keep insisting B6 is in trouble at BOS. You do realize that DL is the one bleeding money on all their new routes, right? B6 is going to make a lot less money in BOS, but that's part of the turf war.

compensateme wrote:
Gotta wonder if the market will be able to sustain all this new capacity, or if any ugly fare war will break out (largely) between DL and B6. It’ll be interesting to see how the BOS, SEA, DEN, etc. fare during the next recession...


BOS fares have to be some of the lowest in the country. The yields I have been looking at are even lower than SEA. I don't think this will be sustainable, but we will see what happens.

Midwestindy wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
And they are starting it April 1, when all the other new markets start September 9. I wonder if they even know where the plane is coming from yet?


Good point, they would have to adjust the schedule on pretty short notice to find a plane(s) for 3x daily service

Another interesting point is they haven't added potential monopoly routes, SDF, SAT, MEM, e.t.c, but have decided to go after major business markets. This may hurt revenue in the short-term, but will pay dividends in weakening B6's position in BOS for the long-run.

Well, they've long had huge corporate customer advantage over B6 in NYC due to all the slots they have at LGA + JFK, but haven't hurt B6 at JFK at all. And at BOS, they have much fewer gates. And all the routes they added have worse schedule and flying regional jets.


Delta has the deep pockets to ride it out, B6 does not.

Mark my words... there is no long term future for both B6 and DL at growing levels at BOS.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
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coronado
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:19 pm

It strikes me that Boston will be A220 'heaven' by this time next year. It is indicated above that they took over Terminal A in Q3 2019. How extensive a remodeling will be needed to unify the facility?
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ncflyer
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:21 pm

I don't follow SEA closely but this BOS situation is so parallel to AS and DL at Seattle. . . .wonder if there is anything to be learned about B6's ability to weather Delta's deeper pockets.
 
airbazar
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:25 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
airbazar wrote:
DL is adding these routes because their corporate clients are asking for them. It's right there in the press release. There's no reason to try and make it more than it actually is.


Except who are they competing for those corporate clients with.......B6

And AA, and UA, and WN. DL and B6 are not the only airlines with corporate clients.
My point is, both DL and B6 are growing. BOS never has been and never will be a 1 airline airport so this idea that DL vs. B6 is somehow a zero-sum game is just childish.
 
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:33 pm

compensateme wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
BOS-EWR 4 x daily? Why bother?


To appeal/attract to travelers loyal to SkyMiles and/or appeal/attract corporate contracts. DL is undoubtedly targeting BOS POS travelers who now fly UA out of convience. (Among many examples I could cite), same reason AA operates LAX-ATL twice daily. In the grand scheme of things, four flights will cover the departure times people want.


DL also has a large FF base in the NYC metro area to support BOS-EWR nonstop service, and there will be some travelers on the NYC side who would fly to BOS out of EWR instead of LGA or JFK on DL once DL starts BOS-EWR nonstop service.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:34 pm

airbazar wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
That is interesting. Looks like it had to be pretty last minute as the DL CLE add doesn't appear in the OAG thread with all the other DL BOS adds.


Considering flights aren't bookable for 2 weeks, they definitely rushed CLE into the press release once they realized that UA was dropping it. Shows they wanted to get the jump on B6 before they could have the chance to increase frequency.

I don't understand some people's obsession with treating businesses like a sporting event. IMO DL is not "in a battle" with B6 at BOS. The market is large enough for both airlines. If anything both DL and B6 are expanding and pushing out UA and AA in the process. If you look at all of those new routes: EWR, ORD, CLE, DCA, PHL, they are all UA and AA hubs. But at the end of the day, DL is adding these routes because their corporate clients are asking for them. It's right there in the press release. There's no reason to try and make it more than it actually is.
I find it hard to believe DL isn't in a battle with B6 at BOS. Obviously, DL is trying to take passengers from other airlines too, but make no mistake, this is about BOS not EWR, ORD, CLE, DCA, or PHL. And there only seems to be two airlines trying to expand in BOS, DL and B6.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
Fargo
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:35 pm

So is DL trying to turn BOS into a secondary TATL hub?
 
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compensateme
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:35 pm

airbazar wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
airbazar wrote:
DL is adding these routes because their corporate clients are asking for them. It's right there in the press release. There's no reason to try and make it more than it actually is.


Except who are they competing for those corporate clients with.......B6

And AA, and UA, and WN. DL and B6 are not the only airlines with corporate clients.
My point is, both DL and B6 are growing. BOS never has been and never will be a 1 airline airport so this idea that DL vs. B6 is somehow a zero-sum game is just childish.


As discussed, it’s doubtful BOS will be able to absorb the new capacity over the long-term. Sure, all airlines will be impacted (like UA dropping CLE), but it’s probable that either DL or B6 will begin recinding capacity in the future, so the discussion is hardly childish.
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tphuang
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:37 pm

chrisnh wrote:
Does this also short-circuit B6? In other words, do these moves by DL push B6 closer to being acquired? I realize these DL additions are primarily on RJs, but still...that's a lot of flights to a bunch of second-tier cities.


Well, that depends on what someone else is willing to offer.

But they make enough money at JFK and FLL that they should be comfortably profitable. and they will still be profitable at BOS. And their leisure and mint network out of BOS will continue to generate a lot of money.

RL757PVD wrote:
Delta has the deep pockets to ride it out, B6 does not.

Mark my words... there is no long term future for both B6 and DL at growing levels at BOS.


B6 is making money at BOS and DL is not.

Those regional jet that DL operates have far higher cost than B6 mainline. And they can't continue to grow at current levels because BOS is gate constrained and DL is basically at their limits with this round of expansion. And once B6 is done maximizing its 30 gates, you are getting close to needing slots at BOS.

Midwestindy wrote:

Yes, but DL has the advantage of a better int'l network for business passengers out of BOS. Not to mention, DL will be willing to take heavy losses out of BOS to try and maintain/grow market share.

That's certainly true.

However, they've had that advantage at JFK for many years now (+ all that slot advantage) and B6 is still making a lot more money.
 
fastmover
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:46 pm

You guys should just make a thread between this one the oag and Boston one.
Call it Deltas revenge, how DELTA WILL CRUSH JetBlue....ha ha ha ha.

Everyone pretty much knew these were coming. I bet even JetBlue had an idea.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:52 pm

tphuang wrote:
B6 is making money at BOS and DL is not.

Those regional jet that DL operates have far higher cost than B6 mainline. And they can't continue to grow at current levels because BOS is gate constrained and DL is basically at their limits with this round of expansion.


It would be foolhardy to assume that the surge in capacity won’t have any impact on B6’s finanaces at BOS. DL isn’t making money in NYC, SEA or LAX, but it sure looks like they’re winning and will ultimately prevail...
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
RamblinMan
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:53 pm

enilria wrote:
floridaflyboy wrote:
enilria wrote:
Already being discussed here
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1410333


While the OAG thread is amazing, sometimes news from it is going to spawn its own thread.

It's right in the title, however.
"OAG Changes 12/9/2018:DL Adds BOS-EWR/DCA/ORD"


And yet everyone else seems eager to have a focused discussion regarding these particular routes on this thread. Your Weekly OAG threads are very much appreciated, but are not the be-all end-all of route and frequency discussion.

Impressive announcement to say the least. Wonder how B6 will respond.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:55 pm

jplatts wrote:
compensateme wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
BOS-EWR 4 x daily? Why bother?


To appeal/attract to travelers loyal to SkyMiles and/or appeal/attract corporate contracts. DL is undoubtedly targeting BOS POS travelers who now fly UA out of convience. (Among many examples I could cite), same reason AA operates LAX-ATL twice daily. In the grand scheme of things, four flights will cover the departure times people want.


DL also has a large FF base in the NYC metro area to support BOS-EWR nonstop service, and there will be some travelers on the NYC side who would fly to BOS out of EWR instead of LGA or JFK on DL once DL starts BOS-EWR nonstop service.


True, yes, but DL had built up EWR a bit in the past, and has since pulled back considerably. CDG and AMS have been axed. 4 flights a day to EWR just makes no sense. Guessing they want to hold onto slots for the future?
 
fastmover
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:00 pm

compensateme wrote:
tphuang wrote:
B6 is making money at BOS and DL is not.

Those regional jet that DL operates have far higher cost than B6 mainline. And they can't continue to grow at current levels because BOS is gate constrained and DL is basically at their limits with this round of expansion.


It would be foolhardy to assume that the surge in capacity won’t have any impact on B6’s finanaces at BOS. DL isn’t making money in NYC, SEA or LAX, but it sure looks like they’re winning and will ultimately prevail...



Wait.
Why are the winning? And why will they ultimately prevail? Don’t just answer with I like Delta better.
 
Atlwarrior
Posts: 476
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:42 am

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:06 pm

enilria wrote:
Already being discussed here
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1410333


I personally don’t understand how to read OAG, and do appreciate the laymen’s term posting.
 
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tlecam
Posts: 1498
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:08 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
compensateme wrote:

To appeal/attract to travelers loyal to SkyMiles and/or appeal/attract corporate contracts. DL is undoubtedly targeting BOS POS travelers who now fly UA out of convience. (Among many examples I could cite), same reason AA operates LAX-ATL twice daily. In the grand scheme of things, four flights will cover the departure times people want.


DL also has a large FF base in the NYC metro area to support BOS-EWR nonstop service, and there will be some travelers on the NYC side who would fly to BOS out of EWR instead of LGA or JFK on DL once DL starts BOS-EWR nonstop service.


True, yes, but DL had built up EWR a bit in the past, and has since pulled back considerably. CDG and AMS have been axed. 4 flights a day to EWR just makes no sense. Guessing they want to hold onto slots for the future?



Coorate contracts. Pharma and Verizon amongst others.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
floridaflyboy
Posts: 1604
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:26 pm

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:10 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
compensateme wrote:

To appeal/attract to travelers loyal to SkyMiles and/or appeal/attract corporate contracts. DL is undoubtedly targeting BOS POS travelers who now fly UA out of convience. (Among many examples I could cite), same reason AA operates LAX-ATL twice daily. In the grand scheme of things, four flights will cover the departure times people want.


DL also has a large FF base in the NYC metro area to support BOS-EWR nonstop service, and there will be some travelers on the NYC side who would fly to BOS out of EWR instead of LGA or JFK on DL once DL starts BOS-EWR nonstop service.


True, yes, but DL had built up EWR a bit in the past, and has since pulled back considerably. CDG and AMS have been axed. 4 flights a day to EWR just makes no sense. Guessing they want to hold onto slots for the future?


EWR is no longer slot restricted.
Good goes around!
 
RL757PVD
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:13 pm

compensateme wrote:
. DL isn’t making money in NYC, SEA or LAX, but it sure looks like they’re winning and will ultimately prevail...


If they aren't making money at any of those places, they sure are making it somewhere these days, and its not like they are growing Atlanta significantly....
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
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chrisnh
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:17 pm

tlecam wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
jplatts wrote:

DL also has a large FF base in the NYC metro area to support BOS-EWR nonstop service, and there will be some travelers on the NYC side who would fly to BOS out of EWR instead of LGA or JFK on DL once DL starts BOS-EWR nonstop service.


True, yes, but DL had built up EWR a bit in the past, and has since pulled back considerably. CDG and AMS have been axed. 4 flights a day to EWR just makes no sense. Guessing they want to hold onto slots for the future?



Corporate contracts. Pharma and Verizon amongst others.


It's interesting that ever since coming to Boston, GE has done nothing but suffer. Hardly anyone talks about them anymore. What a fall from grace. Hopefully, they can grow in Boston and help fill these planes up.
 
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VS4ever
Posts: 2567
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:20 pm

compensateme wrote:
tphuang wrote:
B6 is making money at BOS and DL is not.

Those regional jet that DL operates have far higher cost than B6 mainline. And they can't continue to grow at current levels because BOS is gate constrained and DL is basically at their limits with this round of expansion.


It would be foolhardy to assume that the surge in capacity won’t have any impact on B6’s finanaces at BOS. DL isn’t making money in NYC, SEA or LAX, but it sure looks like they’re winning and will ultimately prevail...


Says who? B6 still has a significant lead in pax count at BOS and it's growing, plus, this is DL's salvo in the expansion. B6's is yet to come. They are clearing out C40-C42, they are getting 2 additional gates built C43 and we'll call it C19A for the time being (I suspect it will get renumbered), B6 has their own expansion plans here. We all knew this was coming with the move round. DL have finally tipped their hand. Next move in the chess game, over to you B6. and as tphuang rightly states. DL has not been getting awesome fares on the routes they are going up against B6 on.

This is not a battle that is going to show a winner per say, unless B6 gets aquired. DL are expanding and trying to increase their relevance and market share. B6 is doing the same. SEA is a similar analogy as others have stated. AA and UA just don't care, or don't seem to that much, and they are the ones being squeezed here to be honest with this round of expansion. No question this round is aimed at entrenching DL in the BOS market and causing pain elsewhere, but this is not a surprise and we are not done yet. B6's answer will be very telling, it may not happen immediately, but they will have 3 gates available in the same time frame, so something sure will come.. It's just a case of when.

Fargo wrote:
So is DL trying to turn BOS into a secondary TATL hub?

Sort of, but it's not all year round. They have their own flights to DUB/AMS/CDG/LHR and coming soon EDI and LIS, along with their partners now have a decent network for O&D and connection alternatives.

coronado wrote:
It strikes me that Boston will be A220 'heaven' by this time next year. It is indicated above that they took over Terminal A in Q3 2019. How extensive a remodeling will be needed to unify the facility?

very little, A18-A22 is under the same roof in the satellite, just needs some signage changing from WN to DL, not sure if they need computer work done, or those can just switch too, but honestly minimal.
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
tphuang
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:28 pm

compensateme wrote:
tphuang wrote:
B6 is making money at BOS and DL is not.

Those regional jet that DL operates have far higher cost than B6 mainline. And they can't continue to grow at current levels because BOS is gate constrained and DL is basically at their limits with this round of expansion.


It would be foolhardy to assume that the surge in capacity won’t have any impact on B6’s finanaces at BOS. DL isn’t making money in NYC, SEA or LAX, but it sure looks like they’re winning and will ultimately prevail...


Yes, it's interesting that you brought the other 3 up. I think BOS is a lot more similar to SEA than the other 2. They are doing well at NYC, but that's due to having more slots than anyone else. They are still behind AA in LAX in Point of Sale based on a lot of routes I've looked at. So I certainly don't think there is any evidence to suggest that DL throwing money alone can solve their problems.

SEA is a market Delta has thrown a lot of money at and have build up quite a presence, but they are definitely quite a way behind AS in point of sale at SEA.

BOS is similar to SEA, but a lot more fragmented. UA/AA are still quite strong due to just the strength of their hubs. In a way, this DL build up has chased away a lot of airlines like WN or even NK that might have attempted to build a bigger operation at BOS. And has also reduced UA/AA to just hubs.

If you think about it, B6 never had BOS all to itself. It has gotten to where it is at BOS through a lot of bruising battles. It's actually at a more dominant position now in BOS than it ever has. By having more gates and operating higher capacity planes from those gates, it will have a pretty significant advantage over any competitor going forward. And it also has a significant cost advantage over any legacy competitor (especially one that operates RJ on most routes). So it can sustain a money making operation at yields that would be deeply in the red for legacies. But yes, they will certainly see lower margins (or negative) on many of those routes that DL will enter. BOS-DCA is certainly a route that I see B6 will make a lot less money on.
Last edited by tphuang on Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
codc10
Posts: 2878
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:28 pm

jplatts wrote:
compensateme wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
BOS-EWR 4 x daily? Why bother?


To appeal/attract to travelers loyal to SkyMiles and/or appeal/attract corporate contracts. DL is undoubtedly targeting BOS POS travelers who now fly UA out of convience. (Among many examples I could cite), same reason AA operates LAX-ATL twice daily. In the grand scheme of things, four flights will cover the departure times people want.


DL also has a large FF base in the NYC metro area to support BOS-EWR nonstop service, and there will be some travelers on the NYC side who would fly to BOS out of EWR instead of LGA or JFK on DL once DL starts BOS-EWR nonstop service.


B6 also has BOS-EWR service. It's a 'portfolio' route where DL wants to have a presence in order to offer a more compelling value proposition over B6 for BOS-originating traffic, and little more. It really has very little to do with UA and the EWR point of sale... 4x DCI is a tough sell for an EWR-based traveler against a dozen or so mainline UAL flights.

tphuang wrote:
And it also has a siginificant cost advantage over any legacy competitor (especially one that operates RJ on most routes). So it can sustain a money making operation at yields that would be deeply in the red for legacies.


B6 CASM-ex is within a penny or so of DL and UA. I wouldn't call that a "significant" cost advantage... it's nowhere near Spirit, for example. JetBlue is much closer to a mainline carrier in terms of its cost structure, but doesn't generate Delta yields, and that's why this move by DL should be troubling for JetBlue.
Last edited by codc10 on Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
stlgph
Posts: 11221
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:30 pm

enilria wrote:
floridaflyboy wrote:
enilria wrote:
Already being discussed here
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1410333


While the OAG thread is amazing, sometimes news from it is going to spawn its own thread.

It's right in the title, however.
"OAG Changes 12/9/2018:DL Adds BOS-EWR/DCA/ORD"



Dude.

Not everyone is going to discuss everything you post in your own precious weekly thread.

You complain every week. Move on.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8083
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:32 pm

What I believe DL is attempting to capture in BOS is to capture a segment of passengers who are looking for a one-stop-shop global airline and alliance.

Specifically with the very large and growing professional services and tech firms in BOS (e.g., large global consultancies, technology implementation firms, M&A advisors, hardware / software providers that need the depth and breadth of a large network airline. Think the type of people who need to travel to their clients in marked large and small, often book more close-in, and generate a fare premium.

Sure B6 is getting a swath of that market for BOS point of sale domestic traffic but much of it is split among the other network carriers.

DL is making a play for the future here, and mostly going after share from other competitors.

In a downturn if it hasn’t matured it could go either way.
 
B757rocket
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:12 pm

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:32 pm

VS4ever wrote:
compensateme wrote:
tphuang wrote:
B6 is making money at BOS and DL is not.

Those regional jet that DL operates have far higher cost than B6 mainline. And they can't continue to grow at current levels because BOS is gate constrained and DL is basically at their limits with this round of expansion.


It would be foolhardy to assume that the surge in capacity won’t have any impact on B6’s finanaces at BOS. DL isn’t making money in NYC, SEA or LAX, but it sure looks like they’re winning and will ultimately prevail...


Says who? B6 still has a significant lead in pax count at BOS and it's growing, plus, this is DL's salvo in the expansion. B6's is yet to come. They are clearing out C40-C42, they are getting 2 additional gates built C43 and we'll call it C19A for the time being (I suspect it will get renumbered), B6 has their own expansion plans here. We all knew this was coming with the move round. DL have finally tipped their hand. Next move in the chess game, over to you B6. and as tphuang rightly states. DL has not been getting awesome fares on the routes they are going up against B6 on.

This is not a battle that is going to show a winner per say, unless B6 gets aquired. DL are expanding and trying to increase their relevance and market share. B6 is doing the same. SEA is a similar analogy as others have stated. AA and UA just don't care, or don't seem to that much, and they are the ones being squeezed here to be honest with this round of expansion. No question this round is aimed at entrenching DL in the BOS market and causing pain elsewhere, but this is not a surprise and we are not done yet. B6's answer will be very telling, it may not happen immediately, but they will have 3 gates available in the same time frame, so something sure will come.. It's just a case of when.

Fargo wrote:
So is DL trying to turn BOS into a secondary TATL hub?

Sort of, but it's not all year round. They have their own flights to DUB/AMS/CDG/LHR and coming soon EDI and LIS, along with their partners now have a decent network for O&D and connection alternatives.

coronado wrote:
It strikes me that Boston will be A220 'heaven' by this time next year. It is indicated above that they took over Terminal A in Q3 2019. How extensive a remodeling will be needed to unify the facility?

very little, A18-A22 is under the same roof in the satellite, just needs some signage changing from WN to DL, not sure if they need computer work done, or those can just switch too, but honestly minimal.


WN vacates August 2019. A18-22 need to be re-striped to accommodate Delta’s aircraft. Jetways need to be modified as WN equipment is attached (IE roller air hoses and lifts for bags). The gates themselves need Delta podiums, computers, monitors, branding etc.

Everything should be up and running for September. Hence the start dates. Don’t be surprised to see more adds. Those gates will be very well utilized in the coming years.

Exciting time in Bosoton from Terimnal E to new roadways and airline expansion.
 
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millionsofmiles
Posts: 374
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:18 am

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:36 pm

RL757PVD wrote:
Going for the B6 juggular at BOS... or at least their most valuable passengers


Yeah...they were really successful putting AS out of business in SEA. :banghead: I don’t expect this capacity growth bloodbath to end any better for DL.
 
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jfklganyc
Posts: 5961
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:40 pm

And what is B6s next move?

Delta just added more flights in one day then B6 adds in a year at BOS.

Delta has a huge fleet of RJs that they can shift around at a whim.

B6 relies on a slow but steady growth of 10-20 aircraft for growth a FLL BOS MCO JFK and elsewhere.

They simply dont have the resources to do these splashy announcements like Delta does. Plus, Europe out of BOS on B6 now looks laughable with Delta covering the map pretty well.

Hard to gloss over how bad this is for B6 at its once most profitable hub
 
jrkmsp
Posts: 187
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 1:33 am

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:45 pm

The DL/B6 battle in Boston has definitely driven fares down. Just by way of example, I've spent the past 7 years flying almost monthly to Boston. Those flights used to be $400 r/t with 21+ day advance purchase in low season, $500 in high season. Now 21+ you can get them for $150. Close-in bookings could be up to $1200, now they're never more than about $750. And that route has been competitive most of those seven years, first with SY and then SY and NK, now SY and B6. It wasn't until B6 that fares just tanked.
 
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chrisnh
Posts: 4135
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:48 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Plus, Europe out of BOS on B6 now looks laughable with Delta covering the map pretty well.


By the time B6 orders the planes, then gets the planes, then goes through the ETOPS rigmarole, the TATL landscape (not to mention the global economy) will look a lot different. There's probably some grumbling inside B6 from folks who feel they shouldn't even bother with TATL.
 
gsg013
Posts: 560
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:03 pm

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:51 pm

jplatts wrote:
compensateme wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
BOS-EWR 4 x daily? Why bother?


To appeal/attract to travelers loyal to SkyMiles and/or appeal/attract corporate contracts. DL is undoubtedly targeting BOS POS travelers who now fly UA out of convience. (Among many examples I could cite), same reason AA operates LAX-ATL twice daily. In the grand scheme of things, four flights will cover the departure times people want.


DL also has a large FF base in the NYC metro area to support BOS-EWR nonstop service, and there will be some travelers on the NYC side who would fly to BOS out of EWR instead of LGA or JFK on DL once DL starts BOS-EWR nonstop service.


I could also see the EWR-BOS flights helping DL get some NJ folks that do not want to fly United to Connect onto Europe and Asia with the new flights?

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