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tphuang
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:09 pm

codc10 wrote:

I would not be surprised if a B6 E90 going against a DCI E75 on short/midhaul routes is a unit cost wash. B6 E90s pay mainline wages.


B6 E90 pilot pay scale is quite a bit lower than A320 pilot pay scale. And pilot pay is only a fraction of the overall cost.

Right, AS recently said their regional CASM is twice as high as mainline. That's a pretty good guideline of B6 hs said E90 is 20% higher than A320 series. That would show cost of A320/B738 mainline vs regional is greater than the cost of A320/B738 mainline vs 100 seat mainline.

Think about these ways.
E75 vs E90. Same E-Jet series. They have the same number of pilots and FAs. One has 100 seat and the other has 70 or 76 seats.
Or B717 vs E90 vs E75. Both B717 and E90 are mainline pay scale with about the same number of seats. So given the same airline, they should have comparable costs. If B717 doesn't have lower cost than E75, why would they proactively upgrade routes to B717 when more seats would mean lower yields?

Back on the original topic, do you know why I said I don't think certain yields works for DL?

I've looked at a wide range of low yielding short haul DL routes across their network like LAX-SFO and LGA/JFK-CLT. None of these routes are getting the kind of yield that I'm seeing on BOS-PIT/BUF. That doesn't mean these numbers can't come up, but the current level of yields are not sustainable.
 
jayunited
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:28 pm

gsg013 wrote:
I could also see the EWR-BOS flights helping DL get some NJ folks that do not want to fly United to Connect onto Europe and Asia with the new flights?


I think you may have meant to say BOS-EWR because people living in NJ don't need to connect to reach Europe or Asia, they already have access to these continents via nonstop flights not only on UA but on a host of international carriers out of EWR.
As far as Boston passengers they also don't have to fly UA now to connect in EWR to Europe or Asia. Boston already has plenty of nonstop flights to Europe on multiple European airlines as well as U.S. carriers. Boston is connected to the Middle East by EK, and Boston is connected to Asia via JL at NRT and HU at PEK. What DL is doing in BOS has nothing to do with EWR, someone already pointed out DL has pulled back at EWR this past year especially in regards to CDG and AMS. In my opinion DL wants a bigger piece of the local market in Boston and I have no problem with it. Several people have posted DL's BOS operation is loosing money however DL has a lot of money in the bank so they can afford to loose some of it. What concerns me a little bit is B6's lack of response to DL aggressive expansion in their own backyard.

I applaud DL they have taken on AS at SEA and over the past year or more B6 at BOS and so far neither of these airlines have been able to stop DL's aggressive expansion on their home turf. I wish we would see more of this from UA (growing line stations) but we are still focusing on hub growth.
 
lowfareair
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:35 pm

evank516 wrote:
lowfareair wrote:
evank516 wrote:

Really? 4 daily over LGA's hourly nonstop flights to BOS? Which will soon be on A220s? I get that it's a short flight, but the product offering out of LaGuardia will be superior to EWR. It's essentially a token presence.


North Jersey has many corporate offices much closer to EWR than LGA Not everything revolves around Manhattan and East.


Okay, that's wonderful. Now they have 4 extra flights to choose from on top of B6's offerings and UA's hefty schedule to BOS as well. It will certainly lower fares, but they're breaking into a heavy UA FF Base when you talk about North Jersey.


Jersey-based fliers aren't the priority here, BOS-based corporate contracts are. Newark needs to be served so there is access to the North Jersey offices, and is likely served solely bc B6 is on the route. These types of routes are needed for some corporate contracts.
 
maccomando111
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:44 pm

Good Evening,

In reading the post that DL is going to start BOS to ORD; I was just wondering, how much gate capacity at ORD does Delta have left?
 
United1
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:47 pm

maccomando111 wrote:
Good Evening,

In reading the post that DL is going to start BOS to ORD; I was just wondering, how much gate capacity at ORD does Delta have left?


That was my first thought as well.

I think they have 7 gates at this point....are they cutting something to fit the BOS flights in?

Looks like they are going to try and push 64 daily flights out of those 7 gates. That's a bit over 9 flights a day per gate, which is doable, but pushing it if anything goes wrong.
Last edited by United1 on Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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F27500
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:58 pm

DL has tried -and failed- at most of these markets before with other regional DL Connection carriers. What will make them a success this time?
 
Delta757MD88
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:18 pm

As an EWR local, does anyone know what these flights ar going to be operated with? Great for EWR hear, always love seeing more service in Newark. This could help DL TATL from EWR because they cut both EWR-LHR and EWR-CDG after last summer.
Flown on: MD-88/90 DC-9 717 737-7/8/900, 757-2/300, 767-3/400 777-200/300ER 787-9, E145/170/175, CRJ-100/200/700/900, A319/320 A333 A350 Q300/400.
 
BostonBeau
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:24 pm

As a Bostonian I resent the "take Boston to the world in 2019" comment. Boston had international service (admittedly only to Canada) when Delta was still dusting crops. :lol:
 
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VS4ever
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:29 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
BOS is on its way to being slotted.

Delta did this same thing at JFK. First they passed B6 inflight count, then they passed them in passengers as they upguaged and grew into their operation.

Pax numbers aside, if Delta approaches 150 flights in BOS, they are nipping at B6s heels.


Pax numbers won't catch up, I won't say never, because someone will pull this post in 2025 and tell me, "told you so", but as of June 18, 12 months rolling B6 hit 11m and DL was somewhere in the 5.5 to 6m range obviously before the expansion they have announced. But that's a huge gap to cover and as someone else said B6 have 12 seats per A320 coming additional, many of their new adds in terms of aircraft will be 200 seat all core 321's (yes there will be some Mint versions coming with 159, but still), plus the switch from E190's (all 100 seats) to A220-300's over time will increase their capacity by 40% if they go with the typical (according to Airbus) 141 seat configuration, even the A220-100 comes with 116...

DL are heading to 150, so yes they will have more options. B6 are heading to 200+ and haven't even announced yet. nipping at the heels, you are probably right, but this is by no means done yet for sure. Oh and BOS has a way to go until slots are needed. If the regionals are continued to be added, plus 4 new gates coming without the 4 from E. Massport has run over 500K operations a year before and right now they are about 420K. so plenty of room to expand if airlines add turns to their gates. They actually state themselves they have the ability to run up to 120 movements an hour, which we know weather will have a huge impact on but right now, roughly they are around 1/2 that and an increase to 500k would add around 14 an hour and up around 70ish overall. Peak times will be packed and you have to take account of the increased size of aircraft needing larger spacing, but still plenty of room. based on an 18 hour day. DL's and B6's to come adds will add around 6 per hour.

Analysis

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1MCjF8 ... Gyp3ZDShlK
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tlecam
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:29 pm

IMO, Newark is primarily targeting BOS based corporate flyers. There is quite a bit of non-NYC business demand between NJ and Boston - Verizon for example, as well as Pharma and other tech companies.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
SurfandSnow
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:32 pm

United1 wrote:
maccomando111 wrote:
Good Evening,

In reading the post that DL is going to start BOS to ORD; I was just wondering, how much gate capacity at ORD does Delta have left?


That was my first thought as well.

I think they have 7 gates at this point....are they cutting something to fit the BOS flights in?

Looks like they are going to try and push 64 daily flights out of those 7 gates. That's a bit over 9 flights a day per gate, which is doable, but pushing it if anything goes wrong.


Duplicate post. Please delete.
Last edited by SurfandSnow on Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SurfandSnow
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:34 pm

United1 wrote:
maccomando111 wrote:
Good Evening,

In reading the post that DL is going to start BOS to ORD; I was just wondering, how much gate capacity at ORD does Delta have left?


That was my first thought as well.

I think they have 7 gates at this point....are they cutting something to fit the BOS flights in?

Looks like they are going to try and push 64 daily flights out of those 7 gates. That's a bit over 9 flights a day per gate, which is doable, but pushing it if anything goes wrong.


With about 1/4 of those flights going to or coming from NYC (JFK and LGA), there's all kinds of things that go wrong. That isn't even taking ORD's own congestion or horrible weather into account! Hopefully with the signing of new leases the Terminal 2 gates are now CUTE, allowing AC, DL and UAX to use each other's gates when necessary...

That said, I'm impatiently waiting for DL to add LAX-ORD. It would be great to once again have a carrier on this ~4 hour route that always offers PTVs...
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
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tlecam
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:37 pm

F27500 wrote:
DL has tried -and failed- at most of these markets before with other regional DL Connection carriers. What will make them a success this time?


YOu're right that Delta has been in and out of Logan multiple times in the past, but the most recent attempt was a decade ago and in a very different market with very different competition. I odn't know that any of their past trials have relevant lessons to be learned here.

At this point, they've been in many non-hub markets for several years (Columbus, Milwaukee, Indianapolis amongst others) and they've continued to add destinations, frequencies an gauge over the past several years.

The relevant question is what would survive in a down economy. It isn't a hub (or focus city or whatever) with connecting flows in the traditional sense, although connections through BOS have been ticking up.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
FSDan
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:40 pm

F27500 wrote:
Typical DL nonsense


The same kind of typical DL nonsense that has had them outperforming their peers by all kinds of measures for years now?

F27500 wrote:
They have been in and outta BOS (as a hub or "focus city") so many times now, its laughable .. just like they have done in SEA, PDX and LAX.


BOS has consistently been a major station for DL for as long as I can remember. And it seems silly to use the examples of SEA and LAX as indicators of DL's impending failure at BOS... By all accounts DL has vastly improved their market position in both SEA and LAX, and is poised to continue doing so in BOS. PDX was a one-off experiment from the 90's, when DL didn't have many options to gain a presence in Asia. Seems irrelevant to this discussion, and not in the same category as SEA, LAX, or BOS.

F27500 wrote:
This big scary "Delta Invasion" is another lame attempt using RJs at scaring off JetBlue. it hasnt worked before .. and it certainly won't work again. CRJs? Please.


I don't think DL's trying to "scare off" JetBlue. They simply saw an opportunity in a major metro area with a growing and diverse economy, where there currently is no single network-style airline that dominates. Business travelers need to be able to get to a huge variety of destinations, and the reality is that B6 does pretty well at serving the biggest destinations, but there are countless small to medium destinations where people do business that B6 doesn't serve at all. If DL can offer nonstops to most of the biggest business destinations from BOS, plus nonstops/connections to a plethora of domestic destinations B6 doesn't (and likely won't ever) serve, plus flights to major European business destinations like Dublin, London, Paris, and Amsterdam, then DL's got a strong proposition to bring to corporate clients that might be deciding between DL and B6. That's what this expansion is about.

Also, the E75s that DL's using for a lot of their BOS expansion are a very competitive product. DL doesn't operate any 50-seaters from BOS.
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stlgph
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:44 pm

F27500 wrote:
DL has tried -and failed- at most of these markets before with other regional DL Connection carriers. What will make them a success this time?


Name a major airline the scope and size of Delta you like that has never reentered a market.
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airbazar
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:07 am

jfklganyc wrote:
BOS is on its way to being slotted.

Delta did this same thing at JFK. First they passed B6 inflight count, then they passed them in passengers as they upguaged and grew into their operation.

Pax numbers aside, if Delta approaches 150 flights in BOS, they are nipping at B6s heels.


Not even close.
1) BOS is nowhere near being slotted. BOS's problem is terminal congestion and being short of gates. BOS has plenty of runway capacity. So much so that their newest runway is seldom used and people are starting to talk about putting remote parking there or expanding terminal A into that space.
2) Under the current terminal layout it is physically impossible for DL to even come close to matching B6 in number of flights and passengers.
3) See reply #77

Again, people are making this to be a lot more than it actually is. DL is doing what it always meant to do when it built terminal A and it was set back by bankruptcy. They are simply playing catch-up and I look forward to seeing what they will become but I don't see them growing much above 150 daily departures in the foreseeable future.

As for B6 they have bigger things to worry than whether DL is catching up to them or not, or whether to go TATL. They need to solve their operational issues and improve their on-time performance.
 
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tlecam
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:15 am

Yes, to further AirBazaar’s comments, Aircraft movements are quite a bit below historical highs. Passenger volume is up, but not aircraft movements.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:29 am

F27500 wrote:
DL has tried -and failed- at most of these markets before with other regional DL Connection carriers. What will make them a success this time?


The same things that made them successful in adding 120+ flights each to LAX and SEA? Operational costs and reliability vs. AA and UA. Service offerings (F, Comfort+, AVOD, seat assignments) vs. LCC and ULCC.
 
SunsetLimited
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:37 am

I see a Saturday-only BOS-MSY operating through June. Republic E75.
Spread hope like fire.
 
Fargo
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:43 am

https://www.bizjournals.com/boston/news/2018/12/10/delta-adding-new-routes-between-boston-and-other.html

Interesting tidbit from this article in the Boston Business Journal.

A spokesman for Delta said the carrier has no plans to turn Boston into a mini-hub, but rather a “strong-focus” market for the airline.


DL at BOS is kind of already a quasi-hub, but I guess officially, it will remain a focus city for the foreseeable future.
 
flybry
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:47 am

Delta is smart to add BOS-CLE. I think many UA flyers will now choose Delta for this flight. United keeps shrinking while Delta makes inroads into other carriers' hubs. Pretty soon UA will only offer service to its other hubs from CLE. Delta will probably become a bigger carrier in CLE than United. So sad when you think of how big United used to be in CLE :(
 
DeltaRules
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:49 am

All the expansion and they're cutting a frequency from BOS-CMH in September, which is a fairly strong DL airport.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
Fargo
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:51 am

flybry wrote:
Delta is smart to add BOS-CLE. I think many UA flyers will now choose Delta for this flight. United keeps shrinking while Delta makes inroads into other carriers' hubs. Pretty soon UA will only offer service to its other hubs from CLE. Delta will probably become a bigger carrier in CLE than United. So sad when you think of how big United used to be in CLE :(


UA only cares about their 7 hubs, and they could care less about expanding their reach outside of their hubs. Most mid-sized airports they are behind DL/AA/WN. Sooner or later, that is going to come back to bite them.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:58 am

JetBlue thinks BOS is on the way to being slotted.

And I trust what they think more than the posters on a.net.

When I read posters talking about 120 per
hour with the current runway layout, it is laughable.

Maybe CapeAir 402s fully utilizing 33R and 32...

Short of that, Logan has 2 parallels and a crosswind that intersects...and that is the optimum configuration.

Get real.

This is a race to fill up the airport...like JFK in the mid 2000s. Same players, different city. More
money to be lost.
 
IPFreely
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:08 am

VS4ever wrote:
DL are going to have to absolutely massively increase their flight and gauge to outdo B6..

See this reported by Massport that goes through June 18 Slide 152
http://www.massport.com/media/3029/mpa- ... -final.pdf


According to that slide, B6 is #1 at BOS with 27.9% market share and DL is #3 with 12.6% in 2018. And since 2009, B6 market share has gone up while DL market share has gone down in BOS. DL adding a few DCI flights (not exactly known for reliable performance, especially in the northeast) is hardly the threat to B6 that some posters seem to want it to be.

Victorville wrote:
A lot of BOS-based pax (especially business ones) are getting upset at B6's reliability difficulties. People are talking about it. If DL can center their marketing around number of destinations and on-time performance, it could be a winning strategy. AS wasn't that bad in SEA.


That sounds good but it doesn't pass the smell test. According to the Massport data linked above, B6 has increased their market share in BOS for ten straight years. So people are evidently not as upset as you think, or they're showing their displeasure with B6 by giving them more and more business every year. I'll trust hard data over your unsubstantiated statement.
 
IPFreely
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:14 am

F27500 wrote:
Typical DL nonsense, They have been in and outta BOS (as a hub or "focus city") so many times now, its laughable .. just like they have done in SEA, PDX and LAX.

This big scary "Delta Invasion" is another lame attempt using RJs at scaring off JetBlue. it hasnt worked before .. and it certainly won't work again. CRJs? Please.


In addition to SEA, PDX, and LAX, you forgot Delta's past attempts to operate hubs (or "focus cities") in ORD, CVG, DFW, FRA, MEM, and MCO.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:15 am

BostonBeau wrote:
As a Bostonian I resent the "take Boston to the world in 2019" comment. Boston had international service (admittedly only to Canada) when Delta was still dusting crops. :lol:


It's quite typical for Delta to think that they are the first to do something.
 
Fargo
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:27 am

IPFreely wrote:
F27500 wrote:
Typical DL nonsense, They have been in and outta BOS (as a hub or "focus city") so many times now, its laughable .. just like they have done in SEA, PDX and LAX.

This big scary "Delta Invasion" is another lame attempt using RJs at scaring off JetBlue. it hasnt worked before .. and it certainly won't work again. CRJs? Please.


In addition to SEA, PDX, and LAX, you forgot Delta's past attempts to operate hubs (or "focus cities") in ORD, CVG, DFW, FRA, MEM, and MCO.


Let's see here.

SEA and LAX are hubs for Delta.

CVG and MEM were small markets that didn't make sense in Delta's network so they were cut. Fairly reasonable.

DFW and MCO were cut due to the bankruptcy, and DL in MCO was never even that big to begin with. Different era.

ORD was really small and didn't make sense in their network so it was cut.

FRA never made sense due to the lack of an German partner.

So Delta tried different things, had some success and some failures, just like any other business. Not really sure your point here?
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:31 am

Fargo wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
F27500 wrote:
Typical DL nonsense, They have been in and outta BOS (as a hub or "focus city") so many times now, its laughable .. just like they have done in SEA, PDX and LAX.

This big scary "Delta Invasion" is another lame attempt using RJs at scaring off JetBlue. it hasnt worked before .. and it certainly won't work again. CRJs? Please.


In addition to SEA, PDX, and LAX, you forgot Delta's past attempts to operate hubs (or "focus cities") in ORD, CVG, DFW, FRA, MEM, and MCO.


Let's see here.

SEA and LAX are hubs for Delta.

CVG and MEM were small markets that didn't make sense in Delta's network so they were cut. Fairly reasonable.

DFW and MCO were cut due to the bankruptcy, and DL in MCO was never even that big to begin with. Different era.

ORD was really small and didn't make sense in their network so it was cut.

FRA never made sense due to the lack of an German partner.

So Delta tried different things, had some success and some failures, just like any other business. Not really sure your point here?


CVG still maintains a pilot base, flight attendant base, and maintenance base. BOS doesn't even have a pilot base.
 
Atlwarrior
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:44 am

F27500 wrote:
DL has tried -and failed- at most of these markets before with other regional DL Connection carriers. What will make them a success this time?


With oil prices still low, I don't think it hurts anything to try again. I would probably try the 220 on the O'hare routes.Them seem to be targeting United. I would also like to know what new business contract they have pick up in Boston to warrant new service.
 
gsg013
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:18 am

I will tell you that once EWR-BOS is served by DL there is no chance my family will get stuck on UA or B6 on that route ever again. (They live in Northern New Jersey).

Does anyone have info on what aircraft will be allocated to what routes? I am thinking BOS-EWR-BOS will be CR-900 or possibly E-175.
 
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adambrau
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:33 am

gsg013 wrote:

I could also see the EWR-BOS flights helping DL get some NJ folks that do not want to fly United to Connect onto Europe and Asia with the new flights?


Wait what do you mean, exactly, by NJ folks? EWR is NJ/NYC folks.

Anyone who has convenient access to EWR has way more nonstop UA options to Asia or Europe than flying to Boston and making a connection. Your point ends with a question mark but doesn't make sense. I understand not everyone wants to fly UA. But I don't get the logic of your post - perhaps you could elucidate...

;)
JFK Friendly
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:35 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
The same things that made them successful in adding 120+ flights each to LAX and SEA? Operational costs and reliability vs. AA and UA. Service offerings (F, Comfort+, AVOD, seat assignments) vs. LCC and ULCC.


ATL, DTW, and MSP are what make LAX and SEA "successful" and allows for money-losing long-term plays like BOS.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5178
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:41 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
F27500 wrote:
DL has tried -and failed- at most of these markets before with other regional DL Connection carriers. What will make them a success this time?


The same things that made them successful in adding 120+ flights each to LAX and SEA? Operational costs and reliability vs. AA and UA. Service offerings (F, Comfort+, AVOD, seat assignments) vs. LCC and ULCC.


It's kind of hard to argue they have better product than B6. Especially those RJs vs B6 mainline.

FSDan wrote:
I don't think DL's trying to "scare off" JetBlue. They simply saw an opportunity in a major metro area with a growing and diverse economy, where there currently is no single network-style airline that dominates. Business travelers need to be able to get to a huge variety of destinations, and the reality is that B6 does pretty well at serving the biggest destinations, but there are countless small to medium destinations where people do business that B6 doesn't serve at all. If DL can offer nonstops to most of the biggest business destinations from BOS, plus nonstops/connections to a plethora of domestic destinations B6 doesn't (and likely won't ever) serve, plus flights to major European business destinations like Dublin, London, Paris, and Amsterdam, then DL's got a strong proposition to bring to corporate clients that might be deciding between DL and B6. That's what this expansion is about.

Also, the E75s that DL's using for a lot of their BOS expansion are a very competitive product. DL doesn't operate any 50-seaters from BOS.


Most of DL RJ out of BOS are CRJ-900, which isn't very competitive to E90s.

We will see what happens, but there is a reason BOS has no single network airline dominating. It has very robust list of international airline and not well located for domestic connections. All the legacies have a lot of gates. No one is really dominating that part. And there is nothing to stop B6 for launching flights to London and Dublin other than management indecision. Unless B6 gets bought or really messes up, they will be quite a bit larger than DL at BOS. In the end, size really is what brings in higher yield. It's not great to be a second place airline in any market, but especially one with such low fare across the board like BOS. There is a reason AA and UA are slowly cutting back to all hub flights.

Only 2 years ago AA was at 3/4 B6 size at BOS and a lot larger including their international JV partners and OW partners while also having dominant position in most of the major business market out of BOS. And even now, AA is still about the same size as DL. This market is far from just between DL and B6. That's the difference between BOS and SEA.
 
N649DL
Posts: 965
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:14 am

gsg013 wrote:
I will tell you that once EWR-BOS is served by DL there is no chance my family will get stuck on UA or B6 on that route ever again. (They live in Northern New Jersey).

Does anyone have info on what aircraft will be allocated to what routes? I am thinking BOS-EWR-BOS will be CR-900 or possibly E-175.


BOS-EWR looks to be 4x E175 on DL. I think B6 only flies the E-190 on BOS-EWR as well. UA is mostly 737 and 320, not much variety these days at all. I miss when they operated the sUA 757 on BOS-EWR a few years ago.
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5359
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:29 am

tphuang wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
F27500 wrote:
DL has tried -and failed- at most of these markets before with other regional DL Connection carriers. What will make them a success this time?


The same things that made them successful in adding 120+ flights each to LAX and SEA? Operational costs and reliability vs. AA and UA. Service offerings (F, Comfort+, AVOD, seat assignments) vs. LCC and ULCC.


It's kind of hard to argue they have better product than B6. Especially those RJs vs B6 mainline.

FSDan wrote:
I don't think DL's trying to "scare off" JetBlue. They simply saw an opportunity in a major metro area with a growing and diverse economy, where there currently is no single network-style airline that dominates. Business travelers need to be able to get to a huge variety of destinations, and the reality is that B6 does pretty well at serving the biggest destinations, but there are countless small to medium destinations where people do business that B6 doesn't serve at all. If DL can offer nonstops to most of the biggest business destinations from BOS, plus nonstops/connections to a plethora of domestic destinations B6 doesn't (and likely won't ever) serve, plus flights to major European business destinations like Dublin, London, Paris, and Amsterdam, then DL's got a strong proposition to bring to corporate clients that might be deciding between DL and B6. That's what this expansion is about.

Also, the E75s that DL's using for a lot of their BOS expansion are a very competitive product. DL doesn't operate any 50-seaters from BOS.


Most of DL RJ out of BOS are CRJ-900, which isn't very competitive to E90s.

We will see what happens, but there is a reason BOS has no single network airline dominating. It has very robust list of international airline and not well located for domestic connections. All the legacies have a lot of gates. No one is really dominating that part. And there is nothing to stop B6 for launching flights to London and Dublin other than management indecision. Unless B6 gets bought or really messes up, they will be quite a bit larger than DL at BOS. In the end, size really is what brings in higher yield. It's not great to be a second place airline in any market, but especially one with such low fare across the board like BOS. There is a reason AA and UA are slowly cutting back to all hub flights.

Only 2 years ago AA was at 3/4 B6 size at BOS and a lot larger including their international JV partners and OW partners while also having dominant position in most of the major business market out of BOS. And even now, AA is still about the same size as DL. This market is far from just between DL and B6. That's the difference between BOS and SEA.

Yeah, slots, competition, aircraft, getting ETOPS, etc. etc. are easy. :roll: :roll:
 
stlgph
Posts: 11220
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:34 am

I've flown plenty of 190s. I've flown plenty of Delta CRJ900s.

Give me the 900.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3698
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:40 am

deltal1011man wrote:
Yeah, slots, competition, aircraft, getting ETOPS, etc. etc. are easy. :roll: :roll:


That would all fall under "management indecision". Nothing is stopping B6 from launching service except for internal decisions.

stlgph wrote:
I've flown plenty of 190s. I've flown plenty of Delta CRJ900s.

Give me the 900.


There's always that one person....
 
stlgph
Posts: 11220
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:44 am

MSPNWA wrote:
deltal1011man wrote:
Yeah, slots, competition, aircraft, getting ETOPS, etc. etc. are easy. :roll: :roll:


That would all fall under "management indecision". Nothing is stopping B6 from launching service except for internal decisions.

stlgph wrote:
I've flown plenty of 190s. I've flown plenty of Delta CRJ900s.

Give me the 900.


There's always that one person....


And?
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
sonicruiser
Posts: 921
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 am

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:45 am

ncflyer wrote:
I don't follow SEA closely but this BOS situation is so parallel to AS and DL at Seattle. . . .wonder if there is anything to be learned about B6's ability to weather Delta's deeper pockets.


DL's strategy at BOS and SEA is the same. The main difference is at BOS, it's competing with B6 and wants to Boston's international airline. At SEA, it's competing with AS and wants to Seattle's international airline.

In the long-term, DL's desire to be the international carrier of choice out of BOS may not be enough by itself to topple B6 if they decide to go TATL which at this point is only a matter of time. On the other side of the country, a newly strengthened AS+VX will increasingly become an issue for DL as AS increases firepower out of SEA to defend their home turf. AS probably won't be going TPAC anytime soon but is a much more fierce and potent competitor domestically against DL at SEA than B6 is at BOS. AS does not appear to giving signs of letting up any time soon. One thing both B6 and AS have going for them is the fact that both are the de facto partner airlines of choice for many airlines which appeals to business travelers and which DL will have to convince flyers to abandon exclusively for SkyTeam. DL is making progress but there are real challenges ahead and taking on B6 and AS may not be as easy as it looks.
Last edited by sonicruiser on Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
شما می توانید مردم را تحریم کنید ، اما نمی توانید سبک تحریم را اعمال کنید

You can sanction people, but you can't sanction style
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5359
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:56 am

MSPNWA wrote:
deltal1011man wrote:
Yeah, slots, competition, aircraft, getting ETOPS, etc. etc. are easy. :roll: :roll:


That would all fall under "management indecision". Nothing is stopping B6 from launching service except for internal decisions
.

stlgph wrote:
I've flown plenty of 190s. I've flown plenty of Delta CRJ900s.

Give me the 900.


There's always that one person....

I mean I guess if we just assume B6 is sitting on a unlimited load of cash

*looks at balance sheet*

huh, they aren't.

oh and we just assume LHR slots are plentiful.

huh, they aren't.
 
MSPNWA
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Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:13 am

stlgph wrote:
And?


If you want to be that one person, fine with me. I'll steer clear of being the loner on the island.

deltal1011man wrote:
I mean I guess if we just assume B6 is sitting on a unlimited load of cash

*looks at balance sheet*

huh, they aren't.

oh and we just assume LHR slots are plentiful.

huh, they aren't.


Still falls under management indecision. Whether it's a wise one or not doesn't matter. It's physically possible for B6 to do it.
 
TW870
Posts: 1222
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:15 am

Everyone is talking about this as if it is a zero sum game - which it is not. I think that DL and B6 understand the economic geography of the U.S., and understand that highly educated coastal metropolitan areas are the center of a tech and finance based economy that is creating a huge demand for travel. This is not BOS 10 years ago, this is BOS now, and the Harvard/MIT economy creates large opportunities for both DL and B6. MIT got a $1.8bil grant last week to study AI. And that is just one example. This is not about DL wanting a second European gateway. We can get grandma from San Francisco to Rome a billion different ways that don't require a Delta Boston hub. This is about the fact that SEA and BOS play the role in the US economy that the industrial midwest did 50 years ago. DL at BOS is TWA in CVG, DAY, and IND in the 1960s. DL is not trying to kill AS or B6. They are leveraging excellent customer service and a global footprint.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:29 am

TW870 wrote:
Everyone is talking about this as if it is a zero sum game - which it is not. I think that DL and B6 understand the economic geography of the U.S., and understand that highly educated coastal metropolitan areas are the center of a tech and finance based economy that is creating a huge demand for travel. This is not BOS 10 years ago, this is BOS now, and the Harvard/MIT economy creates large opportunities for both DL and B6. MIT got a $1.8bil grant last week to study AI. And that is just one example. This is not about DL wanting a second European gateway. We can get grandma from San Francisco to Rome a billion different ways that don't require a Delta Boston hub. This is about the fact that SEA and BOS play the role in the US economy that the industrial midwest did 50 years ago. DL at BOS is TWA in CVG, DAY, and IND in the 1960s. DL is not trying to kill AS or B6. They are leveraging excellent customer service and a global footprint.


They are talking that way because it basically is a zero-sum game. Highly competitive airports - which BOS is - are as close to zero-sum as they can be in this industry when excess capacity is introduced. Margins will drop. Great for BOS passengers of course though.
 
stlgph
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:33 am

MSPNWA wrote:
stlgph wrote:
And?


If you want to be that one person, fine with me. I'll steer clear of being the loner on the island.

deltal1011man wrote:
I mean I guess if we just assume B6 is sitting on a unlimited load of cash

*looks at balance sheet*

huh, they aren't.

oh and we just assume LHR slots are plentiful.

huh, they aren't.


Still falls under management indecision. Whether it's a wise one or not doesn't matter. It's physically possible for B6 to do it.


Not sure what that means, but ok.

I remember being much happier with my seat in a Delta CRJ900 than in the 190s Ive been in on several airlines.
I also remember being much happier with my seat in a 170 (LOT Polish, Delta) than in a 787 (LOT Polish, American, etc.).

It is what it is.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3698
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:52 am

stlgph wrote:
Not sure what that means, but ok.

I remember being much happier with my seat in a Delta CRJ900 than in the 190s Ive been in on several airlines.
I also remember being much happier with my seat in a 170 (LOT Polish, Delta) than in a 787 (LOT Polish, American, etc.).

It is what it is.


What it means is that I'd question myself if I had an uncommon opinion that didn't align with objective measures that should develop it.
 
TW870
Posts: 1222
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:56 am

MSPNWA wrote:
TW870 wrote:
Everyone is talking about this as if it is a zero sum game - which it is not. I think that DL and B6 understand the economic geography of the U.S., and understand that highly educated coastal metropolitan areas are the center of a tech and finance based economy that is creating a huge demand for travel. This is not BOS 10 years ago, this is BOS now, and the Harvard/MIT economy creates large opportunities for both DL and B6. MIT got a $1.8bil grant last week to study AI. And that is just one example. This is not about DL wanting a second European gateway. We can get grandma from San Francisco to Rome a billion different ways that don't require a Delta Boston hub. This is about the fact that SEA and BOS play the role in the US economy that the industrial midwest did 50 years ago. DL at BOS is TWA in CVG, DAY, and IND in the 1960s. DL is not trying to kill AS or B6. They are leveraging excellent customer service and a global footprint.


They are talking that way because it basically is a zero-sum game. Highly competitive airports - which BOS is - are as close to zero-sum as they can be in this industry when excess capacity is introduced. Margins will drop. Great for BOS passengers of course though.


The airlines' margins are totally unprecedented historically right now - even with experiments such as BOS and SEA. Things are summing up to so much more than zero. Sure, introductory new months are most likely loss making, but all the players - AS, B6, DL, and the others - can absolutely afford it. The country continues to urbanize and consolidate around these big urban knowledge economies, and DL recognizes that and can afford to compete for that market.
 
stlgph
Posts: 11220
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:57 am

Well, looks like I'm totally screwed in life because I'm not impressed with a JetBlue 190 or anybody's 190 aircraft.
Hope no one flies Southwest. I mean, if a carrier with no seat assignments and a seat back video screen became the most traveled domestic U.S. carrier - the apocalypse will set in.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
fastmover
Posts: 419
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:37 pm

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:47 am

stlgph wrote:
I've flown plenty of 190s. I've flown plenty of Delta CRJ900s.

Give me the 900.



Really the crj900 over a 190 especially a JetBlue 190. Wow as a guy who has flown both and dh in almost every plane out there this is a new one.

I guess we are all different.
 
mpdpilot
Posts: 807
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:44 am

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:50 am

MSPNWA wrote:
stlgph wrote:
I've flown plenty of 190s. I've flown plenty of Delta CRJ900s.

Give me the 900.


There's always that one person....


Make that 2 people, I would much prefer the CRJ900.

As for DL in BOS, I think it is worth reiterating that this is not a winner or looser situation. I don't think Delta is trying to put jetBlue out of business or even to "win" in BOS, I think DL is just taking advantage of an opportunity to do what corporations do and that is to make money. There is nothing stopping both Delta and jetBlue from being the #1 and #2 in BOS.

It is difficult to look from the outside and say that when Delta grows by 1m passengers that jetBlue lost 1m passengers. Delta's growth can come from many different places. And in my opinion, I think Delta is taking more from UA and AA than jetBlue, but that is just my opinion.

I would go one step further and say that DL choosing to grow in two strong growth cities, Seattle and Boston is no mistake. I think Delta is looking to the future and trying to position themselves as a strong carrier in those cities. I don't see any other airlines that are looking at the changing landscape of the US economy and adjusting accordingly. I see UA and AA focusing on their hubs, I see Spirit and Frontier trying to grow with travelers that haven't been big fliers in the past. Alaska is focusing on their merger, and jetBlue seems to still be mostly a leisure carrier though they are trying to change that, but they are still doing that mostly in their hubs.

It will be interesting to see which cities are the powerhouses of the aviation world in the next 30 years.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.

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