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fastmover
Posts: 419
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:37 pm

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:54 am

stlgph wrote:
Well, looks like I'm totally screwed in life because I'm not impressed with a JetBlue 190 or anybody's 190 aircraft.
Hope no one flies Southwest. I mean, if a carrier with no seat assignments and a seat back video screen became the most traveled domestic U.S. carrier - the apocalypse will set in.



No you just don’t hear many people say they would take a crj over a 190. Nothing wrong with it just different. But your not a huge JetBlue fan anyway.
The 190s are a little dated. I was just on one of our retrofitted 320s today, they are pretty nice inside.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:01 am

TW870 wrote:
The airlines' margins are totally unprecedented historically right now - even with experiments such as BOS and SEA. Things are summing up to so much more than zero. Sure, introductory new months are most likely loss making, but all the players - AS, B6, DL, and the others - can absolutely afford it. The country continues to urbanize and consolidate around these big urban knowledge economies, and DL recognizes that and can afford to compete for that market.


Margins aren't historically good in BOS right now, and that's all that matters in that context. Doesn't mean a hill of beans to B6's BOS operation if margins are high in ATL or CLT. Proportionally a bloodbath does many times more damage to small player like B6 or AS than it does DL. It slashes existing profits and wastes resources fighting off competitors that would be better served growing new revenue streams.

DL is growing at BOS and other competitive cities because they are searching for growth areas. Growing at fortress hubs past optimal margin levels is self-injuring. So large markets without a dominant player are the areas DL is sending resources to.
 
deltal1011man
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:39 am

MSPNWA wrote:
stlgph wrote:
And?


If you want to be that one person, fine with me. I'll steer clear of being the loner on the island.

deltal1011man wrote:
I mean I guess if we just assume B6 is sitting on a unlimited load of cash

*looks at balance sheet*

huh, they aren't.

oh and we just assume LHR slots are plentiful.

huh, they aren't.


Still falls under management indecision. Whether it's a wise one or not doesn't matter. It's physically possible for B6 to do it.

I guess we are arguing in technicalities because I look at it as if you need 100 dollars but have 10 then you physically can't do X

but technically you can go get a loan, credit card, etc.

the one argument I will make, I'm not sure it is even physically possible for them to buy slots at LHR. Fat chance UA/LH, DL/VS, AA/BA don't out bid B6 for a slot just to keep them out of the market (plus two of the three have been grabbing any slots they can get without B6 trying)

So I guess they could go to LGW or STN, but it would be insanely stupid to do so.
fastmover wrote:
stlgph wrote:
I've flown plenty of 190s. I've flown plenty of Delta CRJ900s.

Give me the 900.



Really the crj900 over a 190 especially a JetBlue 190. Wow as a guy who has flown both and dh in almost every plane out there this is a new one.

I guess we are all different.

I would take a Delta CR9 over the B6 E90 any day of the week.

but I also fly F so IMO F on a DL CR9 is better than Y on a B6.....anything. 8-)

of course talking about all of this, watch for Boston to see a lot more E-jets are NYC see more and more 220/C10s
Also the DCI shake up isn't done yet so don't be surprised to see more CR7s replaced by E75SCs, looking at you GoJet.
 
ShinyAndChrome
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:06 pm

While they're still apples and oranges in a lot of respects, I think there are still some useful comparisons to be made with SEA. I remember reading that a lot of the DL market share growth following the SEA buildup wasn't necessarily at AS's expense but instead at AA/UA/WN's.

It isn't too far-fetched to think that as DL bulks up in BOS, the lowest hanging fruit will be winning customers/corporate accounts currently loyal to one of the other Big 4. In that sense, they can grow while B6 largely holds its own.
 
fastmover
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:27 pm

ShinyAndChrome wrote:
While they're still apples and oranges in a lot of respects, I think there are still some useful comparisons to be made with SEA. I remember reading that a lot of the DL market share growth following the SEA buildup wasn't necessarily at AS's expense but instead at AA/UA/WN's.

It isn't too far-fetched to think that as DL bulks up in BOS, the lowest hanging fruit will be winning customers/corporate accounts currently loyal to one of the other Big 4. In that sense, they can grow while B6 largely holds its own.


Sure. Look at the routes they are not JetBlue monopolies. They all have or had one of the big 4 flying them.

Now the interesting thing is if you read this thread the logic is business travelers want a global airline. They need something with a better route network vs JetBlue which is why Deltas growth in Boston is so “troubling” fine since that is the theory it’s really AA that has the problem right? They are the airline with a global network flying the routes the Delta just started. Those business guys that need that network wouldn’t be on JetBlue anyway. But it always depends I find many change rules and logic on here to fit their favorite airline.

I also think people try to make JetBlue into something it isn’t to force a fight. It’s not a global carrier JetBlue knows that, they will tell you that. Listen to the Q calls. They will tell you they are an east coast airline that mainly focuses on the 1 or 2 times a year flyer with some business routes where they can make it work. It’s not a mystery. Just let JetBlue do what they do. Delta didn’t chase JetBlue out of JFK and they have tons of international flights. They won’t chase JetBlue out of Boston. Sorry.
 
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chrisnh
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:42 pm

ShinyAndChrome wrote:
They won’t chase JetBlue out of Boston. Sorry.


Yes, but if B6 ends up being a takeover target some will equate that to being 'chased out of Boston.' Problem is, I can't see another airline that would want such a big presence in Boston as B6 represents now.
 
kavok
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:43 pm

I am still waiting to see when or if any true regional flights get added by DL to the nearby smaller and midsize markets. To me, those adds would solidify the Hub status. Specifically, I am referring to flights such as BOS-BUF/SYR/BGR/PWM/BTV/MDT
 
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tlecam
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:50 pm

They’re on BOS-BUF already. AA is still on BOS-SYr...one of their few remaining local northeast flights. Wouldn’t be surprised to see Delta pick that up if/when AA bails.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
tphuang
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:51 pm

TW870 wrote:
Everyone is talking about this as if it is a zero sum game - which it is not. I think that DL and B6 understand the economic geography of the U.S., and understand that highly educated coastal metropolitan areas are the center of a tech and finance based economy that is creating a huge demand for travel. This is not BOS 10 years ago, this is BOS now, and the Harvard/MIT economy creates large opportunities for both DL and B6. MIT got a $1.8bil grant last week to study AI. And that is just one example. This is not about DL wanting a second European gateway. We can get grandma from San Francisco to Rome a billion different ways that don't require a Delta Boston hub. This is about the fact that SEA and BOS play the role in the US economy that the industrial midwest did 50 years ago. DL at BOS is TWA in CVG, DAY, and IND in the 1960s. DL is not trying to kill AS or B6. They are leveraging excellent customer service and a global footprint.

I don't think things aret zero sum game if capacity growth in a market matches the growth in demand of a market. At the moment, a lot of capacity are dumped in the market in a short time, it will definitely adversely affect B6 in a lot of the markets. We've already see this in the past year on the BOS transcon markets where there are a lot of bloody battles.

What DL is doing here is to use the money it makes from its fortress hubs to engage in numerous market share battles around the country. Imo, BOS is probably going to be the most expensive one for them. But that's just my analysis based on yield numbers from past quarters.

If I were DL, I would also be engaging in market share battles. But I might pick different markets.
Last edited by tphuang on Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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tlecam
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:52 pm

They’re on BOS-BUF already. AA is still on BOS-SYr...one of their few remaining local northeast flights. Wouldn’t be surprised to see Delta pick that up if/when AA bails.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
airbazar
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:23 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
TW870 wrote:
Everyone is talking about this as if it is a zero sum game - which it is not. I think that DL and B6 understand the economic geography of the U.S., and understand that highly educated coastal metropolitan areas are the center of a tech and finance based economy that is creating a huge demand for travel. This is not BOS 10 years ago, this is BOS now, and the Harvard/MIT economy creates large opportunities for both DL and B6. MIT got a $1.8bil grant last week to study AI. And that is just one example. This is not about DL wanting a second European gateway. We can get grandma from San Francisco to Rome a billion different ways that don't require a Delta Boston hub. This is about the fact that SEA and BOS play the role in the US economy that the industrial midwest did 50 years ago. DL at BOS is TWA in CVG, DAY, and IND in the 1960s. DL is not trying to kill AS or B6. They are leveraging excellent customer service and a global footprint.


They are talking that way because it basically is a zero-sum game. Highly competitive airports - which BOS is - are as close to zero-sum as they can be in this industry when excess capacity is introduced. Margins will drop. Great for BOS passengers of course though.

Wrong. BOS will never ever be a 1 airline airport so it is not and will never be a zero-sum game.
DFW, ATL, ORD, those are zero-sum game markets because there is only 1 dominant airline that is in bed with the local politicians and business leaders to make sure the status quo is maintained. Massport is not the least bit interested into turning BOS into a 1 airline airport. In addition the O&D at BOS is so large and diverse that more than one airline can co-exist even at low yields. They'll make money on volume. And last but not least, the limited number of gates that each airline has pretty much ensures that no airline can ever become too large.

As for comparing margins and yields between DL and B6, it is completely pointless. It's like comparing apples and oranges. They are 2 very different airlines, catering to very different customer bases, with completely different profit/margin business requirements. B6 never was and never will be a high margin airline. That is why they sell you a lie-flat seat on a TCON flight for $400 and lack F class in just about all of their fleet. As long both are profitable that is pretty much all that matters.
 
TW870
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:35 pm

airbazar wrote:
Wrong. BOS will never ever be a 1 airline airport so it is not and will never be a zero-sum game.
DFW, ATL, ORD, those are zero-sum game markets because there is only 1 dominant airline that is in bed with the local politicians and business leaders to make sure the status quo is maintained. Massport is not the least bit interested into turning BOS into a 1 airline airport. In addition the O&D at BOS is so large and diverse that more than one airline can co-exist even at low yields. They'll make money on volume. And last but not least, the limited number of gates that each airline has pretty much ensures that no airline can ever become too large.

As for comparing margins and yields between DL and B6, it is completely pointless. It's like comparing apples and oranges. They are 2 very different airlines, catering to very different customer bases, with completely different profit/margin business requirements. B6 never was and never will be a high margin airline. That is why they sell you a lie-flat seat on a TCON flight for $400 and lack F class in just about all of their fleet. As long both are profitable that is pretty much all that matters.


I totally agree. BOS will very much support both DL and B6. Look at Dallas, Houston, Chicago, San Francisco, and so many other cities with diverse and flourishing economies. They support both a large Southwest operation and a legacy hub. Up until recently, BOS has had neither - largely because of its physical geography that doesn't work for hubs. But the economic geography of the U.S. and the world is changing, and I think BOS is becoming more like Dallas and Chicago - because of its academic and corresponding tech anchors. The air market will look more like those cities.
 
TW870
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:37 pm

airbazar wrote:
Wrong. BOS will never ever be a 1 airline airport so it is not and will never be a zero-sum game.
DFW, ATL, ORD, those are zero-sum game markets because there is only 1 dominant airline that is in bed with the local politicians and business leaders to make sure the status quo is maintained. Massport is not the least bit interested into turning BOS into a 1 airline airport. In addition the O&D at BOS is so large and diverse that more than one airline can co-exist even at low yields. They'll make money on volume. And last but not least, the limited number of gates that each airline has pretty much ensures that no airline can ever become too large.

As for comparing margins and yields between DL and B6, it is completely pointless. It's like comparing apples and oranges. They are 2 very different airlines, catering to very different customer bases, with completely different profit/margin business requirements. B6 never was and never will be a high margin airline. That is why they sell you a lie-flat seat on a TCON flight for $400 and lack F class in just about all of their fleet. As long both are profitable that is pretty much all that matters.


I totally agree. BOS will very much support both DL and B6. Look at Dallas, Houston, Chicago, San Francisco, and so many other cities with diverse and flourishing economies. They support both a large Southwest operation and a legacy hub. Up until recently, BOS has had neither - largely because of its physical geography that doesn't work for hubs. But the economic geography of the U.S. and the world is changing, and I think BOS is becoming more like Dallas and Chicago - because of its academic and corresponding tech anchors. The air market will look more like those cities.
 
fastmover
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:50 pm

chrisnh wrote:
ShinyAndChrome wrote:
They won’t chase JetBlue out of Boston. Sorry.


Yes, but if B6 ends up being a takeover target some will equate that to being 'chased out of Boston.' Problem is, I can't see another airline that would want such a big presence in Boston as B6 represents now.



And JFK and FLL and MCO.
The point is moot there would just be no jetblue, yay another airline gone I’m sure that would be great for the industry and prices. I’m just not sure why everyone seems to want jetblue to be acquired or destroyed.
It’s just very interesting reading all of the posts on here.
 
bkflyguy
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:57 pm

Read the press release - it says all we need to know - "These new routes, ... means that beginning next fall Delta will offer service to the five top business markets requested by our corporate customers." This expansion is to win more corporate contracts in the Boston area (or satisfy the corporate customers they already have won). Simple.

On a related note, how many of the gates in Terminal A are wide-body capable? I recall that there are a couple but they have to close the adjacent gate. It seems like it would be preferable to have all of DL's JV partners under one roof, but there probably isn't gate space for it, not to mention no FIS facility. I think I smell DL's next big terminal expansion (other than JFK).
 
jbs2886
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Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:12 pm

airbazar wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
TW870 wrote:
Everyone is talking about this as if it is a zero sum game - which it is not. I think that DL and B6 understand the economic geography of the U.S., and understand that highly educated coastal metropolitan areas are the center of a tech and finance based economy that is creating a huge demand for travel. This is not BOS 10 years ago, this is BOS now, and the Harvard/MIT economy creates large opportunities for both DL and B6. MIT got a $1.8bil grant last week to study AI. And that is just one example. This is not about DL wanting a second European gateway. We can get grandma from San Francisco to Rome a billion different ways that don't require a Delta Boston hub. This is about the fact that SEA and BOS play the role in the US economy that the industrial midwest did 50 years ago. DL at BOS is TWA in CVG, DAY, and IND in the 1960s. DL is not trying to kill AS or B6. They are leveraging excellent customer service and a global footprint.


They are talking that way because it basically is a zero-sum game. Highly competitive airports - which BOS is - are as close to zero-sum as they can be in this industry when excess capacity is introduced. Margins will drop. Great for BOS passengers of course though.

Wrong. BOS will never ever be a 1 airline airport so it is not and will never be a zero-sum game.
DFW, ATL, ORD, those are zero-sum game markets because there is only 1 dominant airline that is in bed with the local politicians and business leaders to make sure the status quo is maintained. Massport is not the least bit interested into turning BOS into a 1 airline airport. In addition the O&D at BOS is so large and diverse that more than one airline can co-exist even at low yields. They'll make money on volume. And last but not least, the limited number of gates that each airline has pretty much ensures that no airline can ever become too large.

As for comparing margins and yields between DL and B6, it is completely pointless. It's like comparing apples and oranges. They are 2 very different airlines, catering to very different customer bases, with completely different profit/margin business requirements. B6 never was and never will be a high margin airline. That is why they sell you a lie-flat seat on a TCON flight for $400 and lack F class in just about all of their fleet. As long both are profitable that is pretty much all that matters.


Since when is ORD a 1 airline airport?
 
chicawgo
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:27 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:

They are talking that way because it basically is a zero-sum game. Highly competitive airports - which BOS is - are as close to zero-sum as they can be in this industry when excess capacity is introduced. Margins will drop. Great for BOS passengers of course though.

Wrong. BOS will never ever be a 1 airline airport so it is not and will never be a zero-sum game.
DFW, ATL, ORD, those are zero-sum game markets because there is only 1 dominant airline that is in bed with the local politicians and business leaders to make sure the status quo is maintained. Massport is not the least bit interested into turning BOS into a 1 airline airport. In addition the O&D at BOS is so large and diverse that more than one airline can co-exist even at low yields. They'll make money on volume. And last but not least, the limited number of gates that each airline has pretty much ensures that no airline can ever become too large.

As for comparing margins and yields between DL and B6, it is completely pointless. It's like comparing apples and oranges. They are 2 very different airlines, catering to very different customer bases, with completely different profit/margin business requirements. B6 never was and never will be a high margin airline. That is why they sell you a lie-flat seat on a TCON flight for $400 and lack F class in just about all of their fleet. As long both are profitable that is pretty much all that matters.


Since when is ORD a 1 airline airport?


Beat me to it. 1 dominant airline??
 
stlgph
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:44 pm

fastmover wrote:
stlgph wrote:
Well, looks like I'm totally screwed in life because I'm not impressed with a JetBlue 190 or anybody's 190 aircraft.
Hope no one flies Southwest. I mean, if a carrier with no seat assignments and a seat back video screen became the most traveled domestic U.S. carrier - the apocalypse will set in.



No you just don’t hear many people say they would take a crj over a 190. Nothing wrong with it just different. But your not a huge JetBlue fan anyway.
The 190s are a little dated. I was just on one of our retrofitted 320s today, they are pretty nice inside.


I can get with you on this. Anxious to see the new DL CR9 interiors. Looks fun.

I just wish DL would make DL studio available prior to hitting 10,000 feet. I mean, heaven forbid I do something like enjoy the scenery, think about things I need to do or read a book :)
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
peanuts
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:59 pm

Another thread with the most outlandish statements being made regarding what DL is and what DL is not.
I don't think this has much to do with B6. This is just DL doing its own thing. It's a natural evolution of what DL has become in the past ten years. This is a massive airline being operated like clock work. Their massive FF base requires this type of growth. It's a very popular/likable airline to travel on. The product in clean, crisp and consistent.
I remember all the CASM discussions when DL entered SEA and could never sustain itself along with AS.
Ok then.
 
beerbus
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:07 pm

bkflyguy wrote:
Read the press release - it says all we need to know - "These new routes, ... means that beginning next fall Delta will offer service to the five top business markets requested by our corporate customers." This expansion is to win more corporate contracts in the Boston area (or satisfy the corporate customers they already have won). Simple.


I absolutely agree with this thought.

DL (along with UA and AA for certain) have Corporate Sales Managers calling on corporate travel managers in all major markets.

I was one of those corporate sales managers in my past.

I can state from experience it difficult to sign an Airline Corporate Agreement if you don't serve major city pairs around the country.

The Travel Manger for a Fortune 100 company will often sign a contract based upon the ability of a specific airline to match their organization's specific city pair travel.

DL's adding these top 5 markets from BOS will help their Corporate Sales Managers sign more agreements.

Serving more markets, from ALL airports, including BOS, along with DL's positive service metrics help DL gain additional high yield business traffic via corporate contracts. These contracts help maintain DL's positive RASM differential over OAL.

This is the reason for the new BOS service.
 
N649DL
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:16 pm

kavok wrote:
I am still waiting to see when or if any true regional flights get added by DL to the nearby smaller and midsize markets. To me, those adds would solidify the Hub status. Specifically, I am referring to flights such as BOS-BUF/SYR/BGR/PWM/BTV/MDT


Historically, DL flew most of these routes in the 1990s via Business Express through a little past 9/11. Back then there wasn't as much domestic mainline into BOS and a lot more regional flights believe it or not.
 
CobaltScar
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:20 pm

chrisnh wrote:
ShinyAndChrome wrote:
They won’t chase JetBlue out of Boston. Sorry.


Yes, but if B6 ends up being a takeover target some will equate that to being 'chased out of Boston.' Problem is, I can't see another airline that would want such a big presence in Boston as B6 represents now.


Southwest would benefit tremendously from acquiring the BOS/JFK/LGA B6 routes, gates, and slots.
 
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pitbosflyer
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:28 pm

fastmover wrote:
stlgph wrote:
Well, looks like I'm totally screwed in life because I'm not impressed with a JetBlue 190 or anybody's 190 aircraft.
Hope no one flies Southwest. I mean, if a carrier with no seat assignments and a seat back video screen became the most traveled domestic U.S. carrier - the apocalypse will set in.



No you just don’t hear many people say they would take a crj over a 190. Nothing wrong with it just different. But your not a huge JetBlue fan anyway.
The 190s are a little dated. I was just on one of our retrofitted 320s today, they are pretty nice inside.



Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But just comparing that numbers on the B6 190 you are getting a seat an inch wider in economy plus an inch more of seat pitch. Then the cabin height is almost a half foot higher. But if you like the DL crj900 for the first class service and seats then that I get.

I do agree the e190 interiors are looking pretty rough lately. But the 39 inch pitch for even more space is a crazy value. Compared to 37in in DL crj900 first class.
A:320/21, 333, 343, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 763, 772 || MD80, MD90 || E:145, 170, 175, 190, 195 || CR200, 700, 900
 
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tlecam
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:55 pm

beerbus wrote:
bkflyguy wrote:
Read the press release - it says all we need to know - "These new routes, ... means that beginning next fall Delta will offer service to the five top business markets requested by our corporate customers." This expansion is to win more corporate contracts in the Boston area (or satisfy the corporate customers they already have won). Simple.


I absolutely agree with this thought.

DL (along with UA and AA for certain) have Corporate Sales Managers calling on corporate travel managers in all major markets.

I was one of those corporate sales managers in my past.

I can state from experience it difficult to sign an Airline Corporate Agreement if you don't serve major city pairs around the country.

The Travel Manger for a Fortune 100 company will often sign a contract based upon the ability of a specific airline to match their organization's specific city pair travel.

DL's adding these top 5 markets from BOS will help their Corporate Sales Managers sign more agreements.

Serving more markets, from ALL airports, including BOS, along with DL's positive service metrics help DL gain additional high yield business traffic via corporate contracts. These contracts help maintain DL's positive RASM differential over OAL.

This is the reason for the new BOS service.


Agree with this. This is the reason for all of the adds, it also explains Newark in particular.

I hate the seats in the CRJ 900s in coach on Delta. I find the ERJs to be comfortable, although I realize this is more about seat choices by the airline than about the plane itself.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
jetlanta
Posts: 1664
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:08 pm

peanuts wrote:
Another thread with the most outlandish statements being made regarding what DL is and what DL is not.
I don't think this has much to do with B6. This is just DL doing its own thing. It's a natural evolution of what DL has become in the past ten years. This is a massive airline being operated like clock work. Their massive FF base requires this type of growth. It's a very popular/likable airline to travel on. The product in clean, crisp and consistent.
I remember all the CASM discussions when DL entered SEA and could never sustain itself along with AS.
Ok then.


Yeah. Same characters. Same questions. And, of course, will end up with the same results. AS and B6 are great airlines, but they are ultimately niche players. Boston is a growing, global market and a winner in the 21st Century economy. The only thing about the past that is even relevant in this discussion is that Delta built Terminal A for up to 200 daily operations and that decision freed up C for JetBlue. So here we are.

Much like in SEA, Delta will methodically grow its footprint. It will outperform JetBlue to every single major business market in the BOS network, pretty much what Delta does today in SEA. As demand increases over time, growth will run into capacity roadblocks at the airport, thus improving performance amongst the carriers who have staked a claim. JetBlue will struggle in the business markets as they have virtually zero point of sale anywhere but BOS and NYC. So the JetBlue network will likely start to gravitate towards leisure markets, similar to what has happened in JFK. JetBlue will probably do fine in some larger business markets where they are #2, but will really struggle in markets where they are head to head versus some combo of DL/AA/UA/WN. If B6 is #3 or worse, they will really struggle in an O&D. But they have better economics and less relative competition to leisure destinations, so expect to see a long-term shift towards them.

Ultimately, there is room for all of this under this sort of segmentation. Though there may be some pain in the near term, BOS capacity growth has limits that will whack the supply/demand balance and drive up yields across most markets. Regardless, Delta has pretty consistent and methodical under the current regime. There is not a history of failure here. They have a great terminal at a capacity-constrained airport in a high growth market. So does JetBlue. Both will succeed, but taking different paths. Downturns will have a greater impact on carriers NOT committed to BOS, like AA and UA.

Also, have we not learned the lesson that CASM isn't everything?
 
User avatar
chrisnh
Posts: 4135
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 3:59 am

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:17 pm

Had to chuckle at The Boston Globe. Leading off the big article on this expansion was a huge photo showing an empty and forlorn-looking ticketing area with not a single soul in line, nor any workers behind the counters. Of ALL the pictures they could have used... :lol:
 
FSDan
Posts: 3326
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:19 pm

tphuang wrote:
Most of DL RJ out of BOS are CRJ-900, which isn't very competitive to E90s.


People have now had a whole argument about DL CR9s vs B6 E90s because of this comment, but I haven't actually found your statement to be true... I just looked at the schedules for Feb 2019 and I found more E70/E75 departures on DL than CR7/CR9s. A glance forward to the September schedule also shows that all new flights from BOS to ORD, DCA, and EWR are planned to be on E-Jets. So it seems this argument is somewhat moot.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3698
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:33 pm

airbazar wrote:
Wrong. BOS will never ever be a 1 airline airport so it is not and will never be a zero-sum game.
DFW, ATL, ORD, those are zero-sum game markets because there is only 1 dominant airline that is in bed with the local politicians and business leaders to make sure the status quo is maintained. Massport is not the least bit interested into turning BOS into a 1 airline airport. In addition the O&D at BOS is so large and diverse that more than one airline can co-exist even at low yields. They'll make money on volume. And last but not least, the limited number of gates that each airline has pretty much ensures that no airline can ever become too large.

As for comparing margins and yields between DL and B6, it is completely pointless. It's like comparing apples and oranges. They are 2 very different airlines, catering to very different customer bases, with completely different profit/margin business requirements. B6 never was and never will be a high margin airline. That is why they sell you a lie-flat seat on a TCON flight for $400 and lack F class in just about all of their fleet. As long both are profitable that is pretty much all that matters.


You have the economics of the industry completely backward. If you made a line between Zero-sum (airline perspective) and the opposite, airports with more competition flow towards the zero-sum end (don't think there will ever be a true zero-sum situation). BOS is towards the zero-sum end, and that wont change anytime soon as the infrastructure doesn't allow an airline to garner a large market share. It's a highly competitive airport already, and excess capacity for the purpose of swiping market share is a sure-fire way to erode everyone's margins and overall profit there. And if you're looking at the the airline most at risk, it's the airline that has the largest share of its operations at that airport.

ORD isn't a one dominant airline airport. Far from it. It's also very competitive, although possibly not to the same degree as BOS. And, ORD is also linked to MDW. What happens at ORD in general also affects MDW (domestically). ATL however, would be an example of an airport that is not close to the zero-sum spectrum with one airline having market power and the ability to inflate yields at the expense of overall profit. And ironically it's what allows DL to create a war in a competitive city without financial backlash from stakeholders.
 
airbazar
Posts: 10164
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:48 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
[quote="MSPNWA"

Since when is ORD a 1 airline airport?

Since AA decided they weren't even going to compete in ORD and keep dropping routes. For all intents and purposes ORD is a one airline hub.
No different than SFO even though there is a second airline there that also calls it a hub.
But fine, call it a 2 airline hub. Is it a zero-sum game there?
 
fastmover
Posts: 419
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:37 pm

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:01 pm

jetlanta wrote:
peanuts wrote:
Another thread with the most outlandish statements being made regarding what DL is and what DL is not.
I don't think this has much to do with B6. This is just DL doing its own thing. It's a natural evolution of what DL has become in the past ten years. This is a massive airline being operated like clock work. Their massive FF base requires this type of growth. It's a very popular/likable airline to travel on. The product in clean, crisp and consistent.
I remember all the CASM discussions when DL entered SEA and could never sustain itself along with AS.
Ok then.


Yeah. Same characters. Same questions. And, of course, will end up with the same results. AS and B6 are great airlines, but they are ultimately niche players. Boston is a growing, global market and a winner in the 21st Century economy. The only thing about the past that is even relevant in this discussion is that Delta built Terminal A for up to 200 daily operations and that decision freed up C for JetBlue. So here we are.

Much like in SEA, Delta will methodically grow its footprint. It will outperform JetBlue to every single major business market in the BOS network, pretty much what Delta does today in SEA. As demand increases over time, growth will run into capacity roadblocks at the airport, thus improving performance amongst the carriers who have staked a claim. JetBlue will struggle in the business markets as they have virtually zero point of sale anywhere but BOS and NYC. So the JetBlue network will likely start to gravitate towards leisure markets, similar to what has happened in JFK. JetBlue will probably do fine in some larger business markets where they are #2, but will really struggle in markets where they are head to head versus some combo of DL/AA/UA/WN. If B6 is #3 or worse, they will really struggle in an O&D. But they have better economics and less relative competition to leisure destinations, so expect to see a long-term shift towards them.

Ultimately, there is room for all of this under this sort of segmentation. Though there may be some pain in the near term, BOS capacity growth has limits that will whack the supply/demand balance and drive up yields across most markets. Regardless, Delta has pretty consistent and methodical under the current regime. There is not a history of failure here. They have a great terminal at a capacity-constrained airport in a high growth market. So does JetBlue. Both will succeed, but taking different paths. Downturns will have a greater impact on carriers NOT committed to BOS, like AA and UA.

Also, have we not learned the lesson that CASM isn't everything?



Wait JetBlue will struggle in the business market because it’s point of sale is only BOS and JFK?

Ok let’s chuck JFK it’s hardly the business airport hello LGA and EWR.

But they will struggle in BOS where they are the largest carrier because they don’t have other points of sale?

JetBlue is/has always been O/D focused but I guess now that won’t work huh.
 
ldvaviation
Posts: 1256
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:21 pm

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:03 pm

jetlanta wrote:
Downturns will have a greater impact on carriers NOT committed to BOS, like AA and UA.


Everything sounded reasonable until this.

How will a downturn have a greater impact on AA and UA, when both fly primarily to hubs from BOS?

In a downturn, we are supposed to believe, for example, that AA on DCA-BOS is going to struggle while Delta with its "greater commitment to BOS" does not.

By your reasoning, Delta should just add DFW-BOS now and wait for a downturn to push out AA.
 
jetlanta
Posts: 1664
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:35 am

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:12 pm

ldvaviation wrote:
jetlanta wrote:
Downturns will have a greater impact on carriers NOT committed to BOS, like AA and UA.


Everything sounded reasonable until this.

How will a downturn have a greater impact on AA and UA, when both fly primarily to hubs from BOS?

In a downturn, we are supposed to believe, for example, that AA on DCA-BOS is going to struggle while Delta with its "greater commitment to BOS" does not.

By your reasoning, Delta should just add DFW-BOS now and wait for a downturn to push out AA.


I should have been more clear as to my line of thought. AA still serves some markets that are not AA hubs from BOS. Those are the markets that will suffer the most. They've been reducing them in recent years and I'd expect that to accelerate in a poor economy. UA is cancelling CLE and DL is adding it, so my theory is obviously correct. :)
 
jetlanta
Posts: 1664
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:35 am

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:42 pm

fastmover wrote:
jetlanta wrote:
peanuts wrote:
Another thread with the most outlandish statements being made regarding what DL is and what DL is not.
I don't think this has much to do with B6. This is just DL doing its own thing. It's a natural evolution of what DL has become in the past ten years. This is a massive airline being operated like clock work. Their massive FF base requires this type of growth. It's a very popular/likable airline to travel on. The product in clean, crisp and consistent.
I remember all the CASM discussions when DL entered SEA and could never sustain itself along with AS.
Ok then.


Yeah. Same characters. Same questions. And, of course, will end up with the same results. AS and B6 are great airlines, but they are ultimately niche players. Boston is a growing, global market and a winner in the 21st Century economy. The only thing about the past that is even relevant in this discussion is that Delta built Terminal A for up to 200 daily operations and that decision freed up C for JetBlue. So here we are.

Much like in SEA, Delta will methodically grow its footprint. It will outperform JetBlue to every single major business market in the BOS network, pretty much what Delta does today in SEA. As demand increases over time, growth will run into capacity roadblocks at the airport, thus improving performance amongst the carriers who have staked a claim. JetBlue will struggle in the business markets as they have virtually zero point of sale anywhere but BOS and NYC. So the JetBlue network will likely start to gravitate towards leisure markets, similar to what has happened in JFK. JetBlue will probably do fine in some larger business markets where they are #2, but will really struggle in markets where they are head to head versus some combo of DL/AA/UA/WN. If B6 is #3 or worse, they will really struggle in an O&D. But they have better economics and less relative competition to leisure destinations, so expect to see a long-term shift towards them.

Ultimately, there is room for all of this under this sort of segmentation. Though there may be some pain in the near term, BOS capacity growth has limits that will whack the supply/demand balance and drive up yields across most markets. Regardless, Delta has pretty consistent and methodical under the current regime. There is not a history of failure here. They have a great terminal at a capacity-constrained airport in a high growth market. So does JetBlue. Both will succeed, but taking different paths. Downturns will have a greater impact on carriers NOT committed to BOS, like AA and UA.

Also, have we not learned the lesson that CASM isn't everything?



Wait JetBlue will struggle in the business market because it’s point of sale is only BOS and JFK?

Ok let’s chuck JFK it’s hardly the business airport hello LGA and EWR.

But they will struggle in BOS where they are the largest carrier because they don’t have other points of sale?

JetBlue is/has always been O/D focused but I guess now that won’t work huh.


No, you don't understand what I am saying. JetBlue ONLY has point of sale in BOS. Delta has superior point of sale presence in every business market PLUS a strong business point fo sale presence in BOS. And y'all need to stop looking at traffic as if it the holy grail of market influence. Revenue is the most important metric.

In YE 2Q2018, JetBlue generated $4.2M per day in revenue at BOS on 25.8K paxs (both directions). Average fare was $163, on 140 average daily departures (annualized for the YE 2Q2018)
In YE 2Q2018, Delta generated $3.4M per day in revenue at BOS on 15.9K paxs (both directions). Average fare was $219, on 85 average daily departures (annualized for the YE 2Q2018)

This data is basically pre-expansion for Delta. As they add more business markets, they put more pressure on JetBlue. JetBlue simply isn't built to compete with carriers like Delta, American and United in business markets. Note, my position here isn't that JetBlue will fail in BOS. Rather, I think we will likely see a gradual shift to an even more leisure-focused portfolio. Fortunately, the capacity situation at BOS leaves the JetBlue some long-term opportunities in business markets. But they will struggle head-to-head against Delta. And they would be the first to tell you so, if you asked.
 
fastmover
Posts: 419
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:37 pm

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:10 pm

jetlanta wrote:
fastmover wrote:
jetlanta wrote:

Yeah. Same characters. Same questions. And, of course, will end up with the same results. AS and B6 are great airlines, but they are ultimately niche players. Boston is a growing, global market and a winner in the 21st Century economy. The only thing about the past that is even relevant in this discussion is that Delta built Terminal A for up to 200 daily operations and that decision freed up C for JetBlue. So here we are.

Much like in SEA, Delta will methodically grow its footprint. It will outperform JetBlue to every single major business market in the BOS network, pretty much what Delta does today in SEA. As demand increases over time, growth will run into capacity roadblocks at the airport, thus improving performance amongst the carriers who have staked a claim. JetBlue will struggle in the business markets as they have virtually zero point of sale anywhere but BOS and NYC. So the JetBlue network will likely start to gravitate towards leisure markets, similar to what has happened in JFK. JetBlue will probably do fine in some larger business markets where they are #2, but will really struggle in markets where they are head to head versus some combo of DL/AA/UA/WN. If B6 is #3 or worse, they will really struggle in an O&D. But they have better economics and less relative competition to leisure destinations, so expect to see a long-term shift towards them.

Ultimately, there is room for all of this under this sort of segmentation. Though there may be some pain in the near term, BOS capacity growth has limits that will whack the supply/demand balance and drive up yields across most markets. Regardless, Delta has pretty consistent and methodical under the current regime. There is not a history of failure here. They have a great terminal at a capacity-constrained airport in a high growth market. So does JetBlue. Both will succeed, but taking different paths. Downturns will have a greater impact on carriers NOT committed to BOS, like AA and UA.

Also, have we not learned the lesson that CASM isn't everything?



Wait JetBlue will struggle in the business market because it’s point of sale is only BOS and JFK?

Ok let’s chuck JFK it’s hardly the business airport hello LGA and EWR.

But they will struggle in BOS where they are the largest carrier because they don’t have other points of sale?

JetBlue is/has always been O/D focused but I guess now that won’t work huh.


No, you don't understand what I am saying. JetBlue ONLY has point of sale in BOS. Delta has superior point of sale presence in every business market PLUS a strong business point fo sale presence in BOS. And y'all need to stop looking at traffic as if it the holy grail of market influence. Revenue is the most important metric.

In YE 2Q2018, JetBlue generated $4.2M per day in revenue at BOS on 25.8K paxs (both directions). Average fare was $163, on 140 average daily departures (annualized for the YE 2Q2018)
In YE 2Q2018, Delta generated $3.4M per day in revenue at BOS on 15.9K paxs (both directions). Average fare was $219, on 85 average daily departures (annualized for the YE 2Q2018)

This data is basically pre-expansion for Delta. As they add more business markets, they put more pressure on JetBlue. JetBlue simply isn't built to compete with carriers like Delta, American and United in business markets. Note, my position here isn't that JetBlue will fail in BOS. Rather, I think we will likely see a gradual shift to an even more leisure-focused portfolio. Fortunately, the capacity situation at BOS leaves the JetBlue some long-term opportunities in business markets. But they will struggle head-to-head against Delta. And they would be the first to tell you so, if you asked.



They told you that did they?
I guess we will see but I doubt you are going to see this shift as you say. There is no way JetBlue is just going to be like ok it’s yours.

The real focus should be what are AA and United going to do.
 
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tlecam
Posts: 1498
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:16 pm

jetlanta wrote:
fastmover wrote:
jetlanta wrote:

Yeah. Same characters. Same questions. And, of course, will end up with the same results. AS and B6 are great airlines, but they are ultimately niche players. Boston is a growing, global market and a winner in the 21st Century economy. The only thing about the past that is even relevant in this discussion is that Delta built Terminal A for up to 200 daily operations and that decision freed up C for JetBlue. So here we are.

Much like in SEA, Delta will methodically grow its footprint. It will outperform JetBlue to every single major business market in the BOS network, pretty much what Delta does today in SEA. As demand increases over time, growth will run into capacity roadblocks at the airport, thus improving performance amongst the carriers who have staked a claim. JetBlue will struggle in the business markets as they have virtually zero point of sale anywhere but BOS and NYC. So the JetBlue network will likely start to gravitate towards leisure markets, similar to what has happened in JFK. JetBlue will probably do fine in some larger business markets where they are #2, but will really struggle in markets where they are head to head versus some combo of DL/AA/UA/WN. If B6 is #3 or worse, they will really struggle in an O&D. But they have better economics and less relative competition to leisure destinations, so expect to see a long-term shift towards them.

Ultimately, there is room for all of this under this sort of segmentation. Though there may be some pain in the near term, BOS capacity growth has limits that will whack the supply/demand balance and drive up yields across most markets. Regardless, Delta has pretty consistent and methodical under the current regime. There is not a history of failure here. They have a great terminal at a capacity-constrained airport in a high growth market. So does JetBlue. Both will succeed, but taking different paths. Downturns will have a greater impact on carriers NOT committed to BOS, like AA and UA.

Also, have we not learned the lesson that CASM isn't everything?



Wait JetBlue will struggle in the business market because it’s point of sale is only BOS and JFK?

Ok let’s chuck JFK it’s hardly the business airport hello LGA and EWR.

But they will struggle in BOS where they are the largest carrier because they don’t have other points of sale?

JetBlue is/has always been O/D focused but I guess now that won’t work huh.


No, you don't understand what I am saying. JetBlue ONLY has point of sale in BOS. Delta has superior point of sale presence in every business market PLUS a strong business point fo sale presence in BOS. And y'all need to stop looking at traffic as if it the holy grail of market influence. Revenue is the most important metric.

In YE 2Q2018, JetBlue generated $4.2M per day in revenue at BOS on 25.8K paxs (both directions). Average fare was $163, on 140 average daily departures (annualized for the YE 2Q2018)
In YE 2Q2018, Delta generated $3.4M per day in revenue at BOS on 15.9K paxs (both directions). Average fare was $219, on 85 average daily departures (annualized for the YE 2Q2018)

This data is basically pre-expansion for Delta. As they add more business markets, they put more pressure on JetBlue. JetBlue simply isn't built to compete with carriers like Delta, American and United in business markets. Note, my position here isn't that JetBlue will fail in BOS. Rather, I think we will likely see a gradual shift to an even more leisure-focused portfolio. Fortunately, the capacity situation at BOS leaves the JetBlue some long-term opportunities in business markets. But they will struggle head-to-head against Delta. And they would be the first to tell you so, if you asked.



Do the revenue numbers include international?
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
Sydscott
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:59 pm

airbazar wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
[quote="MSPNWA"

Since when is ORD a 1 airline airport?

Since AA decided they weren't even going to compete in ORD and keep dropping routes. For all intents and purposes ORD is a one airline hub.
No different than SFO even though there is a second airline there that also calls it a hub.
But fine, call it a 2 airline hub. Is it a zero-sum game there?


Yeah AA really isn't competing by adding service on:

ORD - Quebec - Seasonal
ORD - Allentown
ORD - NW Florida Beaches
ORD - Pensacola
ORD - State College
ORD - Key West
ORD - Athens - Seasonal
ORD - Aruba - Seasonal
ORD - Grand Cayman - Seasonal
ORD - Nassau - Seasonal
ORD - Providenciales - Seasonal
ORD - Honolulu - service resumption
ORD - Wilkers-Barre/Scranton
ORD - Burlington - Seasonal
ORD - Charleston
ORD - Missoule - Seasonal
ORD - Portland ME - Seasonal
ORD - Savannah - Seasonal
ORD - Wilmington - Seasonal
ORD - Calgary - Seasonal
ORD - Vancouver
ORD - Myrtle Beach - Seasonal
ORD - Bangor

The list for 2017 new cities and flights for AA at ORD is longer. But clearly ORD is a 1 horse town just because they cut PEK and PVG............
 
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spinotter
Posts: 793
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:06 pm

jetlanta wrote:
fastmover wrote:
jetlanta wrote:

Yeah. Same characters. Same questions. And, of course, will end up with the same results. AS and B6 are great airlines, but they are ultimately niche players. Boston is a growing, global market and a winner in the 21st Century economy. The only thing about the past that is even relevant in this discussion is that Delta built Terminal A for up to 200 daily operations and that decision freed up C for JetBlue. So here we are.

Much like in SEA, Delta will methodically grow its footprint. It will outperform JetBlue to every single major business market in the BOS network, pretty much what Delta does today in SEA. As demand increases over time, growth will run into capacity roadblocks at the airport, thus improving performance amongst the carriers who have staked a claim. JetBlue will struggle in the business markets as they have virtually zero point of sale anywhere but BOS and NYC. So the JetBlue network will likely start to gravitate towards leisure markets, similar to what has happened in JFK. JetBlue will probably do fine in some larger business markets where they are #2, but will really struggle in markets where they are head to head versus some combo of DL/AA/UA/WN. If B6 is #3 or worse, they will really struggle in an O&D. But they have better economics and less relative competition to leisure destinations, so expect to see a long-term shift towards them.

Ultimately, there is room for all of this under this sort of segmentation. Though there may be some pain in the near term, BOS capacity growth has limits that will whack the supply/demand balance and drive up yields across most markets. Regardless, Delta has pretty consistent and methodical under the current regime. There is not a history of failure here. They have a great terminal at a capacity-constrained airport in a high growth market. So does JetBlue. Both will succeed, but taking different paths. Downturns will have a greater impact on carriers NOT committed to BOS, like AA and UA.

Also, have we not learned the lesson that CASM isn't everything?



Wait JetBlue will struggle in the business market because it’s point of sale is only BOS and JFK?

Ok let’s chuck JFK it’s hardly the business airport hello LGA and EWR.

But they will struggle in BOS where they are the largest carrier because they don’t have other points of sale?

JetBlue is/has always been O/D focused but I guess now that won’t work huh.


No, you don't understand what I am saying. JetBlue ONLY has point of sale in BOS. Delta has superior point of sale presence in every business market PLUS a strong business point fo sale presence in BOS. And y'all need to stop looking at traffic as if it the holy grail of market influence. Revenue is the most important metric.

In YE 2Q2018, JetBlue generated $4.2M per day in revenue at BOS on 25.8K paxs (both directions). Average fare was $163, on 140 average daily departures (annualized for the YE 2Q2018)
In YE 2Q2018, Delta generated $3.4M per day in revenue at BOS on 15.9K paxs (both directions). Average fare was $219, on 85 average daily departures (annualized for the YE 2Q2018)

This data is basically pre-expansion for Delta. As they add more business markets, they put more pressure on JetBlue. JetBlue simply isn't built to compete with carriers like Delta, American and United in business markets. Note, my position here isn't that JetBlue will fail in BOS. Rather, I think we will likely see a gradual shift to an even more leisure-focused portfolio. Fortunately, the capacity situation at BOS leaves the JetBlue some long-term opportunities in business markets. But they will struggle head-to-head against Delta. And they would be the first to tell you so, if you asked.


Yours sounds like a reasonable line of argument. But why, according to you, is B6 not equipped to compete with DL/UA/AA in business to business markets? They have lower CASM's, is that not true? Is it frequency, global footprint, what?
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3698
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Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:10 pm

jetlanta wrote:
In YE 2Q2018, JetBlue generated $4.2M per day in revenue at BOS on 25.8K paxs (both directions). Average fare was $163, on 140 average daily departures (annualized for the YE 2Q2018)
In YE 2Q2018, Delta generated $3.4M per day in revenue at BOS on 15.9K paxs (both directions). Average fare was $219, on 85 average daily departures (annualized for the YE 2Q2018)


Is that apples to apples? Because straight-up we would expect DL to have what appears to be considerable revenue premium (that when adjusted is not).
 
User avatar
spinotter
Posts: 793
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 am

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:14 pm

ldvaviation wrote:
jetlanta wrote:
Downturns will have a greater impact on carriers NOT committed to BOS, like AA and UA.


Everything sounded reasonable until this.

How will a downturn have a greater impact on AA and UA, when both fly primarily to hubs from BOS?

In a downturn, we are supposed to believe, for example, that AA on DCA-BOS is going to struggle while Delta with its "greater commitment to BOS" does not.

By your reasoning, Delta should just add DFW-BOS now and wait for a downturn to push out AA.


No, assume that almighty BOS will surmount the inevitable downturn, and become even more of a global A city than it is now, while DFW does not, because of its less cerebral origins. Then 80% of passengers BOS-DFW will be BOS originating, and DL will get a lion's share of the traffic. Then AA will have to leave.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:28 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
chrisnh wrote:
ShinyAndChrome wrote:
They won’t chase JetBlue out of Boston. Sorry.


Yes, but if B6 ends up being a takeover target some will equate that to being 'chased out of Boston.' Problem is, I can't see another airline that would want such a big presence in Boston as B6 represents now.


Southwest would benefit tremendously from acquiring the BOS/JFK/LGA B6 routes, gates, and slots.


You wish. But cross your fingers and never say never. Maybe one day you can change your user name to HotDogOnAStick. :-)
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
chicawgo
Posts: 441
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:09 pm

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:28 pm

airbazar wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
[quote="MSPNWA"

Since when is ORD a 1 airline airport?

Since AA decided they weren't even going to compete in ORD and keep dropping routes. For all intents and purposes ORD is a one airline hub.
No different than SFO even though there is a second airline there that also calls it a hub.
But fine, call it a 2 airline hub. Is it a zero-sum game there?


Seriously?? Does this have to be spewed in every thread that mentions ORD??

FACTS
UA Market Share - 45%
AA Market Share - 35%

Others have already listed all the route adds not to mention they paid themselves for the stinger concourse for new gates.
 
ScottB
Posts: 6994
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:01 am

IPFreely wrote:
According to that slide, B6 is #1 at BOS with 27.9% market share and DL is #3 with 12.6% in 2018. And since 2009, B6 market share has gone up while DL market share has gone down in BOS. DL adding a few DCI flights (not exactly known for reliable performance, especially in the northeast) is hardly the threat to B6 that some posters seem to want it to be.


I think B6 will continue to be the market share leader at BOS, but there's a bit of a wrinkle in that DL and B6 aren't quite competing for the same market segment. DL wants the corporate travelers who care about airline lounges, upgrades to first class/premium economy, and broad domestic and global network access. DL can get you to BRU and BCN, as well as BOI, BHM, and BTR -- B6 cannot. If you want to go to Florida or the Caribbean, B6 is hands-down your best choice out of BOS. It's a bit of a toss-up to the West Coast in that DL has stepped up its coverage of non-stop markets and the recent reintroduction of complimentary economy class meals gives DL a slight product edge, but B6 still wins for schedule and number of markets. Mint is a great product, but you have to pay for it, and Mosaic is a joke if you're a road warrior.

I suspect that if one narrows the focus to business markets out of BOS, the share gap between DL and B6 narrows quite a bit.

PlanesNTrains wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
Southwest would benefit tremendously from acquiring the BOS/JFK/LGA B6 routes, gates, and slots.


You wish. But cross your fingers and never say never. Maybe one day you can change your user name to HotDogOnAStick. :-)


I'm pretty confident that LUV is the eventual acquirer of JBLU. I think it's still several years down the road, but the route networks are almost completely complementary apart from a little overlap at FLL and less so MCO, and neither airport has significant capacity constraints. I'm not even sure they'd have to give up LGA or DCA slots given that the combined carrier would still be far smaller than the dominant carrier at each. Not that I'm even rooting for it but I think it's an obvious combination.

flymco753 wrote:
I wont be surprised over a response from B6 from DTW & MSP -JFK.


Presumably DL's response would be along the lines of, "OK, I'll hold your beer." The business traffic between NYC and both MSP & DTW overwhelmingly prefers LGA, and DL has a lock on the frequent flyers in those city pairs.

ldvaviation wrote:
In the 3QTR, here is consolidated CASM, excluding fuel:

DL $9.62

B6 $8.27

That is more than a penny difference per ASM. The difference between B6 and Delta regional is at least 10% higher.


I'd gently caution against making broad inferences based on system CASM here, given that the E190s have unit costs which have been reported to be in the neighborhood of 20% higher than the Airbus fleet. B6's system CASM is also aided by a relatively high average aircraft trip length.

mpdpilot wrote:
I would go one step further and say that DL choosing to grow in two strong growth cities, Seattle and Boston is no mistake. I think Delta is looking to the future and trying to position themselves as a strong carrier in those cities. I don't see any other airlines that are looking at the changing landscape of the US economy and adjusting accordingly.


So I think this is why they've made moves like the focus city at RDU as well as growing BOS, and this may put a bit more substance behind the (IMO outlandish) rumors of a DL focus city at AUS. There's quite a bit of logic in growing their business in cities which are well-positioned for high-value economic growth over the next couple of decades and which also lack a network carrier hub.
 
User avatar
pitbosflyer
Posts: 380
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 6:18 pm

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:17 am

If anything, I think DLs continued build up in BOS might pressure B6 to launch a mint light product on other routes and beef up Mosiac. Even though B6 is a low cost leisure airline they fly allot of business traffic out of BOS and have corporate contracts. The more destinations DL adds the more likely they will win the corporate contracts with their real FF program and lounges. B6 would have to decide if they want to start looking more like a legacy or double down on low cost leisure. So far their transcon Mint offering has signaled their are serious about business traffic as well.
A:320/21, 333, 343, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 763, 772 || MD80, MD90 || E:145, 170, 175, 190, 195 || CR200, 700, 900
 
FSDan
Posts: 3326
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:40 am

airbazar wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
[quote="MSPNWA"

Since when is ORD a 1 airline airport?

Since AA decided they weren't even going to compete in ORD and keep dropping routes. For all intents and purposes ORD is a one airline hub.
No different than SFO even though there is a second airline there that also calls it a hub.
But fine, call it a 2 airline hub. Is it a zero-sum game there?


It's difficult to ignore AA's 450-500 daily flights from ORD, but I guess that's what you're trying to do...
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
Fargo
Posts: 810
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:00 am

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:00 am

airbazar wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
[quote="MSPNWA"

Since when is ORD a 1 airline airport?

Since AA decided they weren't even going to compete in ORD and keep dropping routes. For all intents and purposes ORD is a one airline hub.
No different than SFO even though there is a second airline there that also calls it a hub.
But fine, call it a 2 airline hub. Is it a zero-sum game there?


You realize AA operates 500+ flights at ORD and have added more routes than UA has in the last few years.........

Oh, and they do better than UA domestically.
 
Atlwarrior
Posts: 476
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:42 am

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:41 am

MSPNWA wrote:
TW870 wrote:
The airlines' margins are totally unprecedented historically right now - even with experiments such as BOS and SEA. Things are summing up to so much more than zero. Sure, introductory new months are most likely loss making, but all the players - AS, B6, DL, and the others - can absolutely afford it. The country continues to urbanize and consolidate around these big urban knowledge economies, and DL recognizes that and can afford to compete for that market.


Margins aren't historically good in BOS right now, and that's all that matters in that context. Doesn't mean a hill of beans to B6's BOS operation if margins are high in ATL or CLT. Proportionally a bloodbath does many times more damage to small player like B6 or AS than it does DL. It slashes existing profits and wastes resources fighting off competitors that would be better served growing new revenue streams.

DL is growing at BOS and other competitive cities because they are searching for growth areas. Growing at fortress hubs past optimal margin levels is self-injuring. So large markets without a dominant player are the areas DL is sending resources to.


Facts to back up your last paragraph please.
 
Atlwarrior
Posts: 476
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:42 am

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:47 am

peanuts wrote:
Another thread with the most outlandish statements being made regarding what DL is and what DL is not.
I don't think this has much to do with B6. This is just DL doing its own thing. It's a natural evolution of what DL has become in the past ten years. This is a massive airline being operated like clock work. Their massive FF base requires this type of growth. It's a very popular/likable airline to travel on. The product in clean, crisp and consistent.
I remember all the CASM discussions when DL entered SEA and could never sustain itself along with AS.
Ok then.


I agree! It makes no sense to respond to ignorance.
 
Atlwarrior
Posts: 476
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:42 am

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:49 am

Bottom line this decision on adding Boston flights was made by a well manage airline and by people probably much smarter than all of us.
 
Fargo
Posts: 810
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:00 am

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:04 am

peanuts wrote:
Another thread with the most outlandish statements being made regarding what DL is and what DL is not.
I don't think this has much to do with B6. This is just DL doing its own thing. It's a natural evolution of what DL has become in the past ten years. This is a massive airline being operated like clock work. Their massive FF base requires this type of growth. It's a very popular/likable airline to travel on. The product in clean, crisp and consistent.
I remember all the CASM discussions when DL entered SEA and could never sustain itself along with AS.
Ok then.


Atlwarrior wrote:
Bottom line this decision on adding Boston flights was made by a well manage airline and by people probably much smarter than all of us.


This. DL likes to target strategic gaps and growth opportunities in its network (i.e, SEA, BOS) and fill them with flights, and they've been largely successful thus far. They know what they are doing.

Not to totally open a can of worms, but I'll bet we'll be throwing AUS into this mix in the not too distant future....... :stirthepot:
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3698
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: Delta Expansion at BOS with new routes including CLE, DCA, EWR, and ORD

Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:43 am

Atlwarrior wrote:
Facts to back up your last paragraph please.


Read DL's financial disclosures and public statements. Use economic theory to understand their situation. If DL is smart as you say, BOS is the result.

Atlwarrior wrote:
Bottom line this decision on adding Boston flights was made by a well manage airline and by people probably much smarter than all of us.


Smarter as in making many mistakes? All airlines make mistakes, some small, and some huge. DL is no different. Smart people do dumb things. This may be a wise move in the long-run, but on the surface it's a different story. Your argument isn't valid and only is there for the purpose of shutting down debate.

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