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rainaviation
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Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:24 am

When Sun Country (SY) announced the elimination of first class and the increase in seats on their 737-800s, it seemed as though they were going towards an ULCC model such as Frontier or Spirit. However, with the recent photos showing their new interior, it would seem as though they are not an ULCC at all.

Ultra low cost carriers like NK and F9 do not have in-seat power, free entertainment, and free beverages on board. So what category does SY fit into?

Southwest is the largest of the LCCs, but they do not have in-seat power and do not have free entertainment. So maybe SY is actually on their own in the industry, trying to be cheap but still provide ammeneties for their passengers.

What do you think? Is SY an ULCC, LCC or on their own?
 
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sunking737
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:27 am

Sun Country has always been in a category all by themselves Just an airline
"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"

I'm a SUNDUCK......Worked for RC & SY @ MSP
 
AWACSooner
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:37 am

rainaviation wrote:

Southwest is the largest of the LCCs, but they do not have in-seat power and do not have free entertainment.

So what do you call their app that offers in-flight live TV for free?


SY charges for carry-ons...thus they're a ULCC
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:47 am

I think they are trying to position themselves as the "JetBlue" of ULCC's - a standard ULCC product with a few more amenities.
 
PVD757
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:18 am

WN has free on board entertainment using your own device.
 
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MSPSXMFLIER
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:32 pm

Following all of SY’s months of press releases touting the changes to the airline, I would now call them a ULCC. CEO Jude Bricker came over from Allegiant, which is clearly a ULCC, and he’s going to cast SY in that same mold for the new owners of the airline.
 
drdisque
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:57 pm

Yes, they are just a ULCC that feels they need to compete a bit more aggressively on product. Likely partly because they have a high composition of International flights which aren't exactly cheap. (for example, right now, MSP-CUN in early March is $700+ pp on SY).
 
UWPAviation
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:58 pm

Just flew WN yesterday bud. They have free TV, movies, drinks and food on the flight.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:54 pm

UWPAviation wrote:
Just flew WN yesterday bud. They have free TV, movies, drinks and food on the flight.


Get back to us when WN has F cabins, reserved seats, a comprehensive lounge network, and worldwide interlined tickets and baggage.
 
rainaviation
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:05 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
rainaviation wrote:

Southwest is the largest of the LCCs, but they do not have in-seat power and do not have free entertainment.

So what do you call their app that offers in-flight live TV for free?


SY charges for carry-ons...thus they're a ULCC


They charge for movies, however, so it is not all free.
 
rainaviation
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:06 pm

UWPAviation wrote:
Just flew WN yesterday bud. They have free TV, movies, drinks and food on the flight.


Yes but they do charge for movies, I meant totally free entertainment.
 
stlgph
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:49 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
UWPAviation wrote:
Just flew WN yesterday bud. They have free TV, movies, drinks and food on the flight.


Get back to us when WN has F cabins, reserved seats, a comprehensive lounge network, and worldwide interlined tickets and baggage.


I'm quite happy with Southwest serving my needs of going from Point A to Point B and not worrying about your ego trip.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
stlgph
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:49 pm

rainaviation wrote:
UWPAviation wrote:
Just flew WN yesterday bud. They have free TV, movies, drinks and food on the flight.


Yes but they do charge for movies, I meant totally free entertainment.



https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/f ... 844555002/
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:04 pm

I've always considered Sun Country to be a holiday airline just like TUI and Condor/Thomas Cook in Europe. Those aren't LCCs or ULCCs, but neither are they legacy airlines. The main goal for airlines like these is hauling tourists to and from their holiday destination, often as part of a package holiday. Of course seats can also be bought separate, but that's not their main goal. On a package holiday, the flight is included in the package together with the hotel and transfer.
 
Jshank83
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:52 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
rainaviation wrote:

Southwest is the largest of the LCCs, but they do not have in-seat power and do not have free entertainment.

So what do you call their app that offers in-flight live TV for free?


SY charges for carry-ons...thus they're a ULCC


Does that mean UA is a ULCC now since they don't include a carry on at their lowest fare?
 
ytib
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:01 pm

rainaviation wrote:
AWACSooner wrote:
rainaviation wrote:

Southwest is the largest of the LCCs, but they do not have in-seat power and do not have free entertainment.

So what do you call their app that offers in-flight live TV for free?


SY charges for carry-ons...thus they're a ULCC


They charge for movies, however, so it is not all free.


They have removed the charge for movies as of 11/1/18. They also offer free messaging in flight and only charge now for internet access.
318, 319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 388, 707, 717, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73Q, 735, 73G, 738, 7M8, 739, 752, 753, 742, 74L, 744, 762, 763, 772, 77L, 77W, 789, 142, CN1, CR2, CR7, DC8, DH2, DH8, D8Q, D10, D95, EM2, ER3, ER4, E70, 100, J31, M11, M83, M88, M90, SF3
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:23 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Does that mean UA is a ULCC now since they don't include a carry on at their lowest fare?


No, they're a legacy.

The difference between an LCC or ULCC and a legacy is hardly in the service level anymore, that's growing towards each other. The most significant difference is in the fare structure.

LCCs and ULCCs got a very simple and logical fare structure. Each individual flight has a certain price, that price is per one-way. Most LCCs and ULCCs don't offer transfers, the ones that do often put a transfer fee on top of the prices of the two individual flights added up. A return is simply the price of two one-way tickets, which is in fact what you buy.

Legacies got a more complicated fare structure, where there is no fixed price per flight. This leads to things like a return flight cheaper than a one-way flight or a tag-on making a flight cheaper instead of more expensive (hidden destination). This is the fare structure that United handles.

And then there's a third fare structure, where the price of the flight is included in the price of a package holiday. As a customer, you don't get to see how much each individual component of the package holiday costs. You only get to see the total price, which includes a flight, hotel and transfer. Apart from the few seats they sell individually, this is the fare structure that Sun Country handles.
 
stlgph
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:28 pm

And yet another reason why the whole talk and use of terms like "Legacy" and "LCC" and "ULCC" is just pointless and dumb.

Use of such terms only make you "cool, bro" to other plane geeks who has to use such terms to be "cool, bro."

it's like restaurants. A restaurant is a restaurant. Some have lobster on the menu. Some don't.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
Jshank83
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:38 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Does that mean UA is a ULCC now since they don't include a carry on at their lowest fare?


No, they're a legacy.

The difference between an LCC or ULCC and a legacy is hardly in the service level anymore, that's growing towards each other. The most significant difference is in the fare structure.

LCCs and ULCCs got a very simple and logical fare structure. Each individual flight has a certain price, that price is per one-way. Most LCCs and ULCCs don't offer transfers, the ones that do often put a transfer fee on top of the prices of the two individual flights added up. A return is simply the price of two one-way tickets, which is in fact what you buy.

Legacies got a more complicated fare structure, where there is no fixed price per flight. This leads to things like a return flight cheaper than a one-way flight or a tag-on making a flight cheaper instead of more expensive (hidden destination). This is the fare structure that United handles.

And then there's a third fare structure, where the price of the flight is included in the price of a package holiday. As a customer, you don't get to see how much each individual component of the package holiday costs. You only get to see the total price, which includes a flight, hotel and transfer. Apart from the few seats they sell individually, this is the fare structure that Sun Country handles.


My point was more that you can't just say SY is a ULCC because it charges for carry ons. If that was the only criteria then UA would be one. There is more than one factor that goes into what category an airline falls into. And as you say the lines are pretty blurred these days. The only ones I feel like you can really lump together are NK/F9/G4 as ULCC (although I think G4 is the only one without connections). Pretty much all the same pricing structure and service (although NK is adding wifi). Same with DL/UA/AA as Legacies. SY/WN/B6/AS fall somewhere in the middle with WN/B6/AS being closer to legacies (AS pretty much seems to be setup like a legacy without the INTL) and SY being closer to ULCC but not all the way down to their level. That all said, I am not sure Legacies should be looked at like they are the best ones either it just a group name they are given.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:18 pm

stlgph wrote:
And yet another reason why the whole talk and use of terms like "Legacy" and "LCC" and "ULCC" is just pointless and dumb.

Use of such terms only make you "cool, bro" to other plane geeks who has to use such terms to be "cool, bro."

it's like restaurants. A restaurant is a restaurant. Some have lobster on the menu. Some don't.


I wouldn't call it pointless and dumb. I do not deny that there is a grey area inbetween, not all airlines are 100% ULCC or 100% legacy. But on average you can put them on this scale somewhere.

Comparing like restaurants like you did, some are very fancy and offer high quality food like lobster. People that go there don't care about the price, they just want good food. On the other side of the scale there's McDonalds, where the food isn't fancy at all but most of all it's cheap. And then there's a whole bunch of restaurants inbetween. Not too fancy, but not too cheap either.

When making a choice where to eat there are two things that matter. First is what you feel comfortable with, second is how much you can afford. There are some people who spend their last penny in fancy restaurants because they won't settle for less even though they actually can't afford it. They wouldn't feel comfortable eating at McDonalds. On the other side there are people who could easily afford a fancy restaurant, but they don't feel comfortable with it. It's too fancy for them, they're more comfortable eating at McDonalds. And of course there are people with plenty of money eating at fancy restaurants and people with hardly any money eating at McDonalds.

Same with airlines. Some people feel fancy and fly an upper class product on a legacy airline, some people hardly got anything to spend and fly the cheapest they can find on an LCC. And of course all the other parallels with the restaurant visitors from above. Just like every restaurant, every airline presents itself in a different way. They're not all the same, also not all after the same type of customer. It's just how you present yourself as an airline which defines what type of airline you are.
 
OB1504
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:04 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Does that mean UA is a ULCC now since they don't include a carry on at their lowest fare?


No, they're a legacy.

The difference between an LCC or ULCC and a legacy is hardly in the service level anymore, that's growing towards each other. The most significant difference is in the fare structure.

LCCs and ULCCs got a very simple and logical fare structure. Each individual flight has a certain price, that price is per one-way. Most LCCs and ULCCs don't offer transfers, the ones that do often put a transfer fee on top of the prices of the two individual flights added up. A return is simply the price of two one-way tickets, which is in fact what you buy.

Legacies got a more complicated fare structure, where there is no fixed price per flight. This leads to things like a return flight cheaper than a one-way flight or a tag-on making a flight cheaper instead of more expensive (hidden destination). This is the fare structure that United handles.

And then there's a third fare structure, where the price of the flight is included in the price of a package holiday. As a customer, you don't get to see how much each individual component of the package holiday costs. You only get to see the total price, which includes a flight, hotel and transfer. Apart from the few seats they sell individually, this is the fare structure that Sun Country handles.


Every airline, (U)LCCs included, is migrating toward a yield management-driven fare structure. Frontier and Spirit happily sell connections and don’t add up the cost of the two flights, much less impose a transfer fee. Any airline that would keep such a simple fare structure in the modern US airline industry would just be leaving money on the table.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:25 pm

OB1504 wrote:
Every airline, (U)LCCs included, is migrating toward a yield management-driven fare structure. Frontier and Spirit happily sell connections and don’t add up the cost of the two flights, much less impose a transfer fee. Any airline that would keep such a simple fare structure in the modern US airline industry would just be leaving money on the table.


I agree the USA is another world, but looking at a more global scale (outside the USA) it's more or less true.

However even though Spirit and Frontier don't fully add up the price of the two flights when making a transfer, there's never any chance of a hidden destination. Basically they just give a discount on the second leg but that discount is never more than 100%. Mostly a lot less. This is only done in the USA, in Europe you won't find any airline who does this.

Norwegian is famous for it's transfer fees, which can of course be avoided by booking the two legs individually. The only case where this isn't cheaper is when you're transferring in the UK. Due to the fact that the British APD does not apply on transferring passengers it's subtracted from the ticket price when transferring in the UK opposed to departing in the UK. When transferring somewhere else in Europe on Norwegian, the logic of the two fares added up plus a transfer fee applies.

Ryanair only offers connections at a limited number of airports. They don't charge a transfer fee, the price of the total flight is simply the price of the individual flights added up. No discount there either.
 
kabq737
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:03 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
UWPAviation wrote:
Just flew WN yesterday bud. They have free TV, movies, drinks and food on the flight.


Get back to us when WN has F cabins, reserved seats, a comprehensive lounge network, and worldwide interlined tickets and baggage.

And in seat power, economy plus, and aircraft that aren’t narrow, loud and outdated feeling. I used to be a die hard WN fan. Now they’re my last choice out of the big 4.

SY is definitely gonna be a ULCC they just want to add a few small things to get customers interested. In seat power is likely a small expense in the long run but it could be a decision maker for many passengers. I am also of the belief that regardless of tickets price there is no reason you shouldn’t be able to plug in on an airplane in this day and age. We’re living in an era where it is simply becoming standard.
Been on: 320, 321, 333, 733, 73G, 738, 739, 744, 752, 763, 764, 772, 789, C208, CR7, CR9, BE20, MD83, MD88, MD90, E70, E75, E90, TRIM
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:10 pm

stlgph wrote:

And yet another reason why the whole talk and use of terms like "Legacy" and "LCC" and "ULCC" is just pointless and dumb.

Use of such terms only make you "cool, bro" to other plane geeks who has to use such terms to be "cool, bro."

it's like restaurants. A restaurant is a restaurant. Some have lobster on the menu. Some don't.


BINGO!

Now with the "legacies" offering Basic Economy, DL/UA/AA/AS etc are now in the "ULCC" game, just not on the whole aircraft. On the flip side, the "ULCC" carriers offer the chance to upgrade your travel package to a certain level. Its all a wash, at least domestically/near international at this point.
Next up: STL DEN PSP DEN STL
 
rainaviation
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:15 am

stlgph wrote:
rainaviation wrote:
UWPAviation wrote:
Just flew WN yesterday bud. They have free TV, movies, drinks and food on the flight.


Yes but they do charge for movies, I meant totally free entertainment.



https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/f ... 844555002/


Ok thanks for the information. The article that I got all that info from is a news website so talk to them about updating that.
 
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SteveXC500
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:54 am

drdisque wrote:
Yes, they are just a ULCC that feels they need to compete a bit more aggressively on product. Likely partly because they have a high composition of International flights which aren't exactly cheap. (for example, right now, MSP-CUN in early March is $700+ pp on SY).


ULCC does not equal low fare. If they keep their costs low and get you to pay $700 RT, good for them...bigger profit. March is Spring Break and Minnesotans go nuts to that area. Between SY and DL, it's probably 8 daily in March and they CAN get that fare.
 
stlgph
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:50 am

rainaviation wrote:
stlgph wrote:
rainaviation wrote:

Yes but they do charge for movies, I meant totally free entertainment.



https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/f ... 844555002/


Ok thanks for the information. The article that I got all that info from is a news website so talk to them about updating that.


No worries :)
Sometimes you have to sleep and can't always spend your life 24/7 paying attention to what Southwest Airlines does.

Some people, however....
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:50 am

They are mostly a vacation airline. They do fly to some business destinations, but IMO they just aren’t practical for business flyers. I’m curious to how many connect at MSP.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
saab2000
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:09 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
UWPAviation wrote:
Just flew WN yesterday bud. They have free TV, movies, drinks and food on the flight.


Get back to us when WN has F cabins, reserved seats, a comprehensive lounge network, and worldwide interlined tickets and baggage.


WN customers don’t really care about these things. For flyers who do care about these things there are lots of options. WN customers and DL customers probably don’t cross-shop these airlines except at the lowest fare categories.

The lack of these amenities doesn’t stop our airplanes from being nearly full most of the time.
smrtrthnu
 
rainaviation
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:53 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
They are mostly a vacation airline. They do fly to some business destinations, but IMO they just aren’t practical for business flyers. I’m curious to how many connect at MSP.


I just looked at this. It is more than I expected. According to the 2017 year end passenger report for MSP, SY had 2,411,903 total passengers. Of the passengers that boarded at MSP, 50,954 of them were connecting to another destination. I guess they get enough connecting on routes like SAN-BOS or ANC-MCO.

On another note, some odd facts... Southwest had over 9,000 connecting passengers at MSP in 2017. Very odd. Meanwhile, Delta had 5,125,175, which is more than were O&D! Makes sense for such a hub airport.
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:27 pm

rainaviation wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
They are mostly a vacation airline. They do fly to some business destinations, but IMO they just aren’t practical for business flyers. I’m curious to how many connect at MSP.


I just looked at this. It is more than I expected. According to the 2017 year end passenger report for MSP, SY had 2,411,903 total passengers. Of the passengers that boarded at MSP, 50,954 of them were connecting to another destination. I guess they get enough connecting on routes like SAN-BOS or ANC-MCO.

On another note, some odd facts... Southwest had over 9,000 connecting passengers at MSP in 2017. Very odd. Meanwhile, Delta had 5,125,175, which is more than were O&D! Makes sense for such a hub airport.

Over 50k connected. That’s a lot more than I expected. Even 9k WN connecting? Wow I didn’t think they’d have that many.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:32 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
I've always considered Sun Country to be a holiday airline just like TUI and Condor/Thomas Cook in Europe. Those aren't LCCs or ULCCs, but neither are they legacy airlines. The main goal for airlines like these is hauling tourists to and from their holiday destination, often as part of a package holiday. Of course seats can also be bought separate, but that's not their main goal. On a package holiday, the flight is included in the package together with the hotel and transfer.


you are 50% right, and 50% wrong.
if you consider only the routes originating from MSP to the international beach destinations (CUN, PUJ, et al), you are mostly right (though don't discount the VERY high number of US residents who own timeshare/"vacation club" interests in those locations and do travel on a fare only basis).

However, SY has and has ALWAYS had (for decades) a significant number of domestic US destinations, constituting nearly all non-winter flying, where there is virtually zero selling of packages - SEA, JFK, DFW, PDX, etc, etc. The only domestic markets that would see any significant package sales are IFP, LAS, MCO.

PatrickZ80 wrote:
And then there's a third fare structure, where the price of the flight is included in the price of a package holiday. As a customer, you don't get to see how much each individual component of the package holiday costs. You only get to see the total price, which includes a flight, hotel and transfer. Apart from the few seats they sell individually, this is the fare structure that Sun Country handles.


you're way off here. in the internet era, SY has provided an **extremely** transparent purchasing breakdown, where you literally see the flight cost on its own and simultaneously see the package cost with a list of hotels below. Its always been a wonderful way to quickly assess the cost and popularity of any given flight and date.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:52 pm

rainaviation wrote:
When Sun Country (SY) announced the elimination of first class and the increase in seats on their 737-800s, it seemed as though they were going towards an ULCC model such as Frontier or Spirit. However, with the recent photos showing their new interior, it would seem as though they are not an ULCC at all.

Ultra low cost carriers like NK and F9 do not have in-seat power, free entertainment, and free beverages on board. So what category does SY fit into?

Southwest is the largest of the LCCs, but they do not have in-seat power and do not have free entertainment. So maybe SY is actually on their own in the industry, trying to be cheap but still provide ammeneties for their passengers.

What do you think? Is SY an ULCC, LCC or on their own?


I'm not sure that the amenities you are citing are good markers of what defines ULCC/LCC/etc . I think its more about the level of unbundling, bare bones base fares, and the opportunities/aggressiveness to generate auxiliary revenue.

SY has always been a unique offering, and this new iteration seems not to change it - they are still something a bit different than everything else around.

I do have a theory about the seeming incongruous offering of free inseat power, IFE, beverages (compared to leading ULCC's) - others say because SY wants to be distinct, be like JetBlue.... personally I think it is because their hub and still far most significant market is MSP , where the comparison to DL is inevitable ... and DL has nearly universal offering of those same things or better. So despite SY's push to grow beyond the MSP market, MSP will remain its most important market for the forseeable future, and DL its most significant competitor.
 
rainaviation
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:15 am

lavalampluva wrote:
rainaviation wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
They are mostly a vacation airline. They do fly to some business destinations, but IMO they just aren’t practical for business flyers. I’m curious to how many connect at MSP.


I just looked at this. It is more than I expected. According to the 2017 year end passenger report for MSP, SY had 2,411,903 total passengers. Of the passengers that boarded at MSP, 50,954 of them were connecting to another destination. I guess they get enough connecting on routes like SAN-BOS or ANC-MCO.

On another note, some odd facts... Southwest had over 9,000 connecting passengers at MSP in 2017. Very odd. Meanwhile, Delta had 5,125,175, which is more than were O&D! Makes sense for such a hub airport.

Over 50k connected. That’s a lot more than I expected. Even 9k WN connecting? Wow I didn’t think they’d have that many.


I know! Wonder where WN gets all of those connections?
 
rainaviation
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:18 am

FlyHappy wrote:
rainaviation wrote:
When Sun Country (SY) announced the elimination of first class and the increase in seats on their 737-800s, it seemed as though they were going towards an ULCC model such as Frontier or Spirit. However, with the recent photos showing their new interior, it would seem as though they are not an ULCC at all.

Ultra low cost carriers like NK and F9 do not have in-seat power, free entertainment, and free beverages on board. So what category does SY fit into?

Southwest is the largest of the LCCs, but they do not have in-seat power and do not have free entertainment. So maybe SY is actually on their own in the industry, trying to be cheap but still provide ammeneties for their passengers.

What do you think? Is SY an ULCC, LCC or on their own?


I'm not sure that the amenities you are citing are good markers of what defines ULCC/LCC/etc . I think its more about the level of unbundling, bare bones base fares, and the opportunities/aggressiveness to generate auxiliary revenue.

SY has always been a unique offering, and this new iteration seems not to change it - they are still something a bit different than everything else around.

I do have a theory about the seeming incongruous offering of free inseat power, IFE, beverages (compared to leading ULCC's) - others say because SY wants to be distinct, be like JetBlue.... personally I think it is because their hub and still far most significant market is MSP , where the comparison to DL is inevitable ... and DL has nearly universal offering of those same things or better. So despite SY's push to grow beyond the MSP market, MSP will remain its most important market for the forseeable future, and DL its most significant competitor.


Maybe not a very good marker of what defines a carrier. I do agree with your thought. They need to be noticed in the MSP market in order to survive, if they went super bare bones like NK, the MSP market would have trashed them heavily. In order to keep costumers, it was needed for them to create some amenities.
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:53 am

rainaviation wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
rainaviation wrote:

I just looked at this. It is more than I expected. According to the 2017 year end passenger report for MSP, SY had 2,411,903 total passengers. Of the passengers that boarded at MSP, 50,954 of them were connecting to another destination. I guess they get enough connecting on routes like SAN-BOS or ANC-MCO.

On another note, some odd facts... Southwest had over 9,000 connecting passengers at MSP in 2017. Very odd. Meanwhile, Delta had 5,125,175, which is more than were O&D! Makes sense for such a hub airport.

Over 50k connected. That’s a lot more than I expected. Even 9k WN connecting? Wow I didn’t think they’d have that many.


I know! Wonder where WN gets all of those connections?

I wonder too. Most of the WN flights are mother south from MSP. They do have a small handful of east/west flights.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
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SierraPacific
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:44 am

lavalampluva wrote:
rainaviation wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
Over 50k connected. That’s a lot more than I expected. Even 9k WN connecting? Wow I didn’t think they’d have that many.


I know! Wonder where WN gets all of those connections?

I wonder too. Most of the WN flights are mother south from MSP. They do have a small handful of east/west flights.


I was on WN this week from MSP to PHX and had connections some connections from Nashville to PHX onboard.
 
N383SW
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:45 am

Are there any pics of the new SY interior? I’ve looked but can’t find any. Even though they’ve made some big changes it’s kind of nice to see they haven’t gone the way of F9, NK, and G4 with their offerings.
 
rainaviation
Topic Author
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:38 pm

N383SW wrote:
Are there any pics of the new SY interior? I’ve looked but can’t find any. Even though they’ve made some big changes it’s kind of nice to see they haven’t gone the way of F9, NK, and G4 with their offerings.


I agree, I like the eye-level pockets for in flight information. Leaves more space at the knee level. A quick google search and you get many new pics from when they let the media visit their hangar last week... Here are a few (photos not mine, I borrowed from a friend)...

Image
Image
 
rainaviation
Topic Author
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Re: Is SY an ULCC or a LCC or neither?

Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:39 pm

SierraPacific wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
rainaviation wrote:

I know! Wonder where WN gets all of those connections?

I wonder too. Most of the WN flights are mother south from MSP. They do have a small handful of east/west flights.


I was on WN this week from MSP to PHX and had connections some connections from Nashville to PHX onboard.


I guess those make some sense, I would assume connect in DEN or ATL from BNA, but MSP could work!

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