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Fargo
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When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:11 am

It is very odd WN does not codeshare with any international airlines at the moment IMO. You'd think with their extensive domestic network, they'd be an attractive option for codeshare partners, but they have none. They also could get a fair amount of extra revenue by codesharing.

Will WN begin codesharing with international airlines so one could use WN to connect onto an international flight on the same ticket?
 
ericm2031
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:28 am

With the old res system, it was very difficult to partner with other airlines, and apparently led to WS/WN cancelling their planned partnership. Now with the new res system, they can do it much more easily and quickly. It's a matter of when, not if. Focus is Hawaii first.
 
itchief
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:37 am

This will not happen until changes the fact that Southwest only allows for booking through their own website. How can you codeshare with other airlines when this is the only booking option.
 
IPFreely
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:53 am

Fargo wrote:
It is very odd WN does not codeshare with any international airlines at the moment IMO. You'd think with their extensive domestic network, they'd be an attractive option for codeshare partners, but they have none.


Considering the airports where Southwest dominates and the airports where they don't operate, most notably some major international gateways like JFK, ORD, MIA, IAH, and others, I doubt it. Plus Southwest is pretty much unknown to travelers outside of the US.

Fargo wrote:
They also could get a fair amount of extra revenue by codesharing.


Codesharing isn't free revenue, it has costs, also. Southwest has done fine for 47 years without international codesharing and without "Southwest Connection" regional airlines. It's unlikely they would mess with a successful formula in either regard.
 
toltommy
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:47 am

I may be mistaken, but I believe their pilot contract requires any flying sold as a Southwest flight to be flown by a Southwest pilot.
A300/A310/A319/A320/A321/A332/A333 / 707/712/727/732/733/734/735/738/739/752/753
/762/763/764/772/788/789/DC8/DC9-10/30/40/50/MD81/83/87/88/90/L1011-/250/500/CRJ200/440 /700/900/EMB135/140/145/170/175/190/328Jet/F70/SF3/BE1/J31
 
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SierraPacific
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:21 am

The pilot contract would have to be renegotiated with SWAPA to allow codesharing. Scope is the best thing about working for Southwest so that would never be given up by the pilot group.
 
aklrno
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:28 am

When they accept pigs as emotional support animals.
 
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enilria
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:39 am

Fargo wrote:
It is very odd WN does not codeshare with any international airlines at the moment IMO. You'd think with their extensive domestic network, they'd be an attractive option for codeshare partners, but they have none. They also could get a fair amount of extra revenue by codesharing.

Will WN begin codesharing with international airlines so one could use WN to connect onto an international flight on the same ticket?

They could have had code share already. It’s clearly not a priority.
 
LSpotter
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:40 am

Years ago WN had codeshares with Icelandair
 
Yossarian22
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:54 am

IPFreely wrote:
Fargo wrote:
It is very odd WN does not codeshare with any international airlines at the moment IMO. You'd think with their extensive domestic network, they'd be an attractive option for codeshare partners, but they have none.


Considering the airports where Southwest dominates and the airports where they don't operate, most notably some major international gateways like JFK, ORD, MIA, IAH, and others, I doubt it. Plus Southwest is pretty much unknown to travelers outside of the US.

Fargo wrote:
They also could get a fair amount of extra revenue by codesharing.


Codesharing isn't free revenue, it has costs, also. Southwest has done fine for 47 years without international codesharing and without "Southwest Connection" regional airlines. It's unlikely they would mess with a successful formula in either regard.


Obviously the leadership at Southeast knows more than I do, but I think they could probably find some extra revenue with a limited codeshare, at airports like LAX, SEA, and BOS, codesharing with carriers such as Hainan or Icelandair. I know Hainan codeshares with Frontier and JetBlue. Further, with China Southern exiting SkyTeam and seeming set to be independent of an alliance, they could provide domestic feed for China Southern at LAX.

Also, given that Southwest seems to have 0 interest in operating their own Transatlantic or Transpacific flights, their pilots probably won’t object, as this could potentially marginally increase flying rather than decrease their flying.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:02 am

toltommy wrote:
I may be mistaken, but I believe their pilot contract requires any flying sold as a Southwest flight to be flown by a Southwest pilot.


WN can codeshare technically after reading the clause it seems like the only regions they can codeshare to is Asia, Europe, & Austrailia/Oceania. North America (including Central America & the Caribbean) & South America must be on a Southwest airplane.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:29 am

They dont need to codeshare an interline agreement would work just as well.
 
Andy33
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:52 am

One thing to consider - the SouthWest unallocated seating model has worked very well for them over the years on US domestic flights and the limited number of US-marketed international flights they do. But it is nowadays almost unknown in the rest of the world. European LCCs used WN as a model initially and found massive passenger resistance to unallocated seating. They've changed to allocated seats. LCCs elsewhere in the world, and of course full-service airlines everywhere have never used anything but allocated seating.
US-based customers might be willing to follow WN's somewhat arcane boarding group system at the beginning or end of international flights because they understand it. Customers in the rest of the world won't understand it at all, will object to not being able to reserve seats with their travelling companions, and the potential airline codeshare partners will be well aware of this.
WN would need to change their entire system to allocated seating to get customers anywhere outside the US to accept codeshare flights with them, at least a second time, and I doubt the benefits from codeshare partnerships would outweigh the disruption caused to the very profitable domestic flights by changing seating policies.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:54 am

I agree Southwest does everything different from any other airline inside and outside the USA and that makes it a hard partner to codeshare with. Customers booking through Southwest would expect the Southwest business model on their codeshare flights, they don't get it. On the other hand as said above, passengers booking through the codeshare airline would expect the business model of that airline on Southwest, they don't get it either.

Southwest would need to change a lot to become a potential codeshare partner and I can't see them do that. In fact, they're the airline that has changed the least in all of their existence. Given that codesharing has zero priority for them, I don't see them changing for that.
 
Yossarian22
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:27 am

Andy33 wrote:
One thing to consider - the SouthWest unallocated seating model has worked very well for them over the years on US domestic flights and the limited number of US-marketed international flights they do. But it is nowadays almost unknown in the rest of the world. European LCCs used WN as a model initially and found massive passenger resistance to unallocated seating. They've changed to allocated seats. LCCs elsewhere in the world, and of course full-service airlines everywhere have never used anything but allocated seating.
US-based customers might be willing to follow WN's somewhat arcane boarding group system at the beginning or end of international flights because they understand it. Customers in the rest of the world won't understand it at all, will object to not being able to reserve seats with their travelling companions, and the potential airline codeshare partners will be well aware of this.
WN would need to change their entire system to allocated seating to get customers anywhere outside the US to accept codeshare flights with them, at least a second time, and I doubt the benefits from codeshare partnerships would outweigh the disruption caused to the very profitable domestic flights by changing seating policies.


I don’t see this as a huge issue. Southwest, not being in an alliance would likely be codesharing or interlining with other non-alligned airlines, many of which offer budget airfares. If passengers want all the bells and whistles such as seating assignments, they would likely be booking elsewhere to begin with. If Southwest codeshares/interlines with Condor for FRA>BWI>STL for $500 round trip, I don’t think that Southwest’s idiosyncrasies will drive passengers away.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:41 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
They dont need to codeshare an interline agreement would work just as well.


It would, and yet WN has no interline ticketing nor baggage agreements. That, and using the 'wrong' airports for major international travel, leads me to a soft 'never' as an answer to the OP's question.
 
AWACSooner
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:09 pm

ericm2031 wrote:
Focus is Hawaii first.

Sooooooo...next century? ;)
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:17 pm

Yossarian22 wrote:
If passengers want all the bells and whistles such as seating assignments, they would likely be booking elsewhere to begin with.


I wouldn't be so sure about that if I were you. Most passengers, unless they're really into it, don't know that Southwest doesn't offer assigned seating. Certainly in Europe that's really unknown, most Europeans have never heard of Southwest to begin with let alone they know what kind of airline they are. They book a ticket and just expect assigned seating.

In your example, Condor has assigned seating and Condor passengers expect that. They also expect it on the Southwest flight and when they don't see a seat number on their boarding card they're confused. When they ask about it and are being told there is no assigned seating on Southwest they get mad, they demand assigned seating. They immediately hate Southwest and hate Condor as well for booking them at Southwest.

Or what about the Condor passenger who booked this trip in business class? The Condor part of the trip is all good, but then he ends up on the codeshare flight with Southwest. Southwest doesn't have business class, all seats are the same and he gets mixed in with the economy class. That's not what he booked, not what he expected. Another passenger who is mad at Southwest and mad at Condor for booking him on that flight.

Following your example the other way, someone from the USA who is used to the Southwest business model ends up on the codeshare with Condor. He booked his flight with Southwest and has two pieces of checked luggage because Southwest allows for that. But Condor doesn't allow for it, so he has to pay extra for that luggage. This results in the passenger being mad at Southwest for charging him what has always been free on Southwest. And then he shows up for the Condor flight booked through Southwest. As Southwest doesn't have assigned seating he expects to be free to pick a seat on Condor as well. However Condor has assigned seating. Again the passenger is mad at both Southwest and Condor for not delivering what he's expecting. On top of that the seat pitch on Condor in economy is lower than on Southwest, so again the passenger complains.

For two airlines to codeshare with each other they need to be compatible, need to offer more or less the same product. The problem is that Southwest is such a weird airline compared to any other airline that they're not compatible with anyone.
 
jimbo737
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:53 pm

WN’s Pilot contract allows for a microscopic percentage of flying to be done by code share partners. It is very much a “heads we win, tails you lose” deal for partners. Few can or will be bothered with it.

As a result, there is little practical point in anyone getting into bed with Southwest.

Southwest also makes its own bed when it comes to various fees and charges. They’d have to align those fees, (baggage and change fees come to mind), and the devil is very much in the detail on that file.
 
wnflyguy
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:01 pm

With the WN pilot scope clause they will most likely only codeshare on international destinations that a 737MAX8 or MAX7 can't fly.
Some Speculation is that WN first international codeshare will be linked in with Hawaii. Markets to and from SJC,OAK,SAN,SMF-HNL-Japan, South Korea,China. And Japan,South Korea,China-HNL-LIH,OGG,KOA,ITO (especially connecting inter island freight contracts with goods inbound from the Orient.

Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
RJNUT
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:03 pm

I don't see it in the near term. The pilots have a complete stranglehold on future growth opportunities. It works for them now, but who knows with changing market conditions. Actually Condor seems the best possibly. It would be naturally self-limiting and seasonal and fits many of the criteria set forth by pilot's union. The disparity in passenger experience described up-thread I think would be a non-issue, especially for US originating travelers.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:03 pm

Fargo wrote:
It is very odd WN does not codeshare with any international airlines at the moment IMO. You'd think with their extensive domestic network, they'd be an attractive option for codeshare partners, but they have none. They also could get a fair amount of extra revenue by codesharing.

Will WN begin codesharing with international airlines so one could use WN to connect onto an international flight on the same ticket?


I think you're confusing two things, codesharing and interlining.

WN appears to have no desire to do either; codesharing only works when another carrier has a ticketing agreement with you, and WN's model avoids that. WN's model also avoids interline ticketing and bag agreements, as those bring added costs.

In short, they don't appear to have a need or desire to do either - why fix what's not broken?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:43 pm

RJNUT wrote:
The disparity in passenger experience described up-thread I think would be a non-issue, especially for US originating travelers.


For US originating travelers maybe, but for European travelers I guarantee you this will be an issue. You're clearly underestimating it.

Besides, if Condor were to seek an American feeder partner, why would they pick Southwest? In Europe they use Lufthansa as a feeder airline, so a more logical choice in America would be United. The product on United is also more in line with the product on Condor.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:53 pm

Condor uses AS as a feeder in the US. As an example ABQ-SEA-Europe on AS/DE/LH is commonly at the top of the search results. I would imagine UA itenaries are possible too, but I've never seen one. UA probably pushes there own metal or LH.
 
Chemist
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:47 pm

This argument seems like another version of "Southwest is leaving money on the table because they're not charging for bags". Except that for my next Mexico vacation I'm preferentially booking with them because my bags are free.

Re: the "not used to no assigned seating". I don't find their boarding system chaotic, I find it far less chaotic than assigned boarding processes of the Big 3 in the US. I flew business in Europe and was in a coach seat with a center seat next to me turned into a tray. That's unexpected to me but somehow I survived.
 
Fargo
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:09 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
I think you're confusing two things, codesharing and interlining.

WN appears to have no desire to do either; codesharing only works when another carrier has a ticketing agreement with you, and WN's model avoids that. WN's model also avoids interline ticketing and bag agreements, as those bring added costs.

In short, they don't appear to have a need or desire to do either - why fix what's not broken?


They don't have a need?

Pretty much all their main competitors do, and WN is one of the big boys now. By not providing codeshare/interline agreements to connect WN passengers to international flights, along with their refusal to get a smaller plane fleet to fly into smaller markets that can't support 737's, they will be backing themselves into a corner and it will come back to bite them at some point. Their current strategy will only work for so long before they run out of growth opportunities due to the limitations of the 737 and their lack of partners.

It may not be broken now, but in due time, it will be.
 
bob75013
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:38 pm

Fargo wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
I think you're confusing two things, codesharing and interlining.

WN appears to have no desire to do either; codesharing only works when another carrier has a ticketing agreement with you, and WN's model avoids that. WN's model also avoids interline ticketing and bag agreements, as those bring added costs.

In short, they don't appear to have a need or desire to do either - why fix what's not broken?


They don't have a need?

Pretty much all their main competitors do, and WN is one of the big boys now. By not providing codeshare/interline agreements to connect WN passengers to international flights, along with their refusal to get a smaller plane fleet to fly into smaller markets that can't support 737's, they will be backing themselves into a corner and it will come back to bite them at some point. Their current strategy will only work for so long before they run out of growth opportunities due to the limitations of the 737 and their lack of partners.

It may not be broken now, but in due time, it will be.


WN is growing pax numbers faster than the three legacy carriers, and has been doing so for years. There are plenty of frequency additions or city pair additons that wil allow WN to keep doing that for many years.

WN has never followed conventional wisdom. What has it gotten them?

1) 40 + years of profitability
2) Higher passenger numbers than any of their competitors.
3) Higher passenger satisfaction ratings than their competitors.
4) etc, etc, etc

Any more questions?

If when "due time" is upon WN, it will be smart enough to do something about it>
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:31 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
RJNUT wrote:
The disparity in passenger experience described up-thread I think would be a non-issue, especially for US originating travelers.


For US originating travelers maybe, but for European travelers I guarantee you this will be an issue. You're clearly underestimating it.


One might wonder how Europeans manage to travel on European trains with unassigned seating.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
FriscoHeavy
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:06 pm

1. WN would be a step up for European passengerd, compared to their home carriers, even with no assigned seating.

2. Their model is unlikely to ‘broken’ for a long, long time. Beyond our lifetimes. They are the best run airline in the USA, Fargo. No need to change that. The legacies are jealous of their never ending winning and success.
Whatever
 
Yossarian22
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:15 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Yossarian22 wrote:
If passengers want all the bells and whistles such as seating assignments, they would likely be booking elsewhere to begin with.


I wouldn't be so sure about that if I were you. Most passengers, unless they're really into it, don't know that Southwest doesn't offer assigned seating. Certainly in Europe that's really unknown, most Europeans have never heard of Southwest to begin with let alone they know what kind of airline they are. They book a ticket and just expect assigned seating.

In your example, Condor has assigned seating and Condor passengers expect that. They also expect it on the Southwest flight and when they don't see a seat number on their boarding card they're confused. When they ask about it and are being told there is no assigned seating on Southwest they get mad, they demand assigned seating. They immediately hate Southwest and hate Condor as well for booking them at Southwest.

Or what about the Condor passenger who booked this trip in business class? The Condor part of the trip is all good, but then he ends up on the codeshare flight with Southwest. Southwest doesn't have business class, all seats are the same and he gets mixed in with the economy class. That's not what he booked, not what he expected. Another passenger who is mad at Southwest and mad at Condor for booking him on that flight.

Following your example the other way, someone from the USA who is used to the Southwest business model ends up on the codeshare with Condor. He booked his flight with Southwest and has two pieces of checked luggage because Southwest allows for that. But Condor doesn't allow for it, so he has to pay extra for that luggage. This results in the passenger being mad at Southwest for charging him what has always been free on Southwest. And then he shows up for the Condor flight booked through Southwest. As Southwest doesn't have assigned seating he expects to be free to pick a seat on Condor as well. However Condor has assigned seating. Again the passenger is mad at both Southwest and Condor for not delivering what he's expecting. On top of that the seat pitch on Condor in economy is lower than on Southwest, so again the passenger complains.

For two airlines to codeshare with each other they need to be compatible, need to offer more or less the same product. The problem is that Southwest is such a weird airline compared to any other airline that they're not compatible with anyone.


If you are a business class passenger on an international itinerary, with a domestic connection in the U.S., which would you rather have Southwest, on a 737 or a small RJ that may or may not have business class, and even if it does have premium seating, it may be sold out?

Also, in your example, I doubt passengers originating in the U.S. get that upset. It would probably be something akin to the relationship that JetBlue and Frontier have with Hainan, JetBlue and Frontier do not sell flights for Hainan, but Hainan does sell itineraries including JetBlue and Frontier. I imagine in your scenario the baggage fees would be made immensely clear.

Also, on international flights with long connections I have been given boarding passes at the initial check-in that do not have a seat assignment for the connecting flight. This all sounds fairly manageable.
 
IPFreely
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:18 am

Fargo wrote:
They don't have a need?

Pretty much all their main competitors do, and WN is one of the big boys now.


So WN should do something because most of their main competitors do it?

Most of their main competitors have been bankrupt, some of them multiple times. Would you recommend WN go bankrupt because most of their main competitors have been bankrupt?

Pretty crazy argument you're making.
 
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par13del
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:19 am

Well if they did that they would regain their pricing advantage, after all, A.Net has already stated that their cost structure is not sustainable, so they need to follow the legacies, it did work for DL, right?
 
FriscoHeavy
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:21 am

par13del wrote:
Well if they did that they would regain their pricing advantage, after all, A.Net has already stated that their cost structure is not sustainable, so they need to follow the legacies, it did work for DL, right?


No, they consistently make profits. We have no reason to believe it’s not sustainable.
Whatever
 
SWApilotfarmer
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:55 am

Fargo wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
I think you're confusing two things, codesharing and interlining.

WN appears to have no desire to do either; codesharing only works when another carrier has a ticketing agreement with you, and WN's model avoids that. WN's model also avoids interline ticketing and bag agreements, as those bring added costs.

In short, they don't appear to have a need or desire to do either - why fix what's not broken?


They don't have a need?

Pretty much all their main competitors do, and WN is one of the big boys now. By not providing codeshare/interline agreements to connect WN passengers to international flights, along with their refusal to get a smaller plane fleet to fly into smaller markets that can't support 737's, they will be backing themselves into a corner and it will come back to bite them at some point. Their current strategy will only work for so long before they run out of growth opportunities due to the limitations of the 737 and their lack of partners.

It may not be broken now, but in due time, it will be.



What exactly are you basing this on? I’m guessing nothing and this is just your opinion. That is fine but a bit dramatic. If I had to guess I would bet that if we were to add another fleet type one day it would be for larger jets not smaller ones. The leaving money on the table talk is just like with the free bags. People act like WN does not study this or run any numbers or think things through. I’m not sure the economics of the A220 vs the 737 but I bet management knows. I’m glad we don’t do things the big boys do like giving away a bunch of flying to RJ’s. The benefits of a single fleet are huge and don’t worry about it biting us. We will be ok.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:35 am

IPFreely wrote:
Plus Southwest is pretty much unknown to travelers outside of the US.

Where do you get that idea?


bob75013 wrote:
2) Higher passenger numbers than any of their competitors.
3) Higher passenger satisfaction ratings than their competitors.
4) etc, etc, etc

This is like a statement written out of 1995.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:53 am

Yossarian22 wrote:
If you are a business class passenger on an international itinerary, with a domestic connection in the U.S., which would you rather have Southwest, on a 737 or a small RJ that may or may not have business class, and even if it does have premium seating, it may be sold out?

The RJ (or any jet aircraft) with assigned seating, no question.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
FriscoHeavy
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:05 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Yossarian22 wrote:
If you are a business class passenger on an international itinerary, with a domestic connection in the U.S., which would you rather have Southwest, on a 737 or a small RJ that may or may not have business class, and even if it does have premium seating, it may be sold out?

The RJ (or any jet aircraft) with assigned seating, no question.


There is a question. I completely disagree and would be one to choose WN over an uncomfortable RJ (or the like).
Whatever
 
jplatts
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:10 am

While the Southwest.com website is accessible from the US, Canada, Mexico, and some other countries in Central America and the Caribbean, the Southwest.com website is currently blocked by some countries in Europe, Asia, and Africa.

Countries where the Southwest.com website has been blocked include China, Finland, Greece, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Lithuania, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Russia, Singapore, South Africa, South Korea, Sweden, Switzerland, Thailand, Ukraine, and Vietnam, and all of these countries are located in either Europe, East Asia, Southeast Asia, or Africa.

The lack of access to the Southwest.com website from some European and Asian countries is one factor that stands in the way of a WN codeshare or interline with an European or Asian carrier, and this issue would need to be addressed if WN enters into a codeshare or interline relationship with an European or Asian airline.
Last edited by jplatts on Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Fargo
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:12 am

IPFreely wrote:
Fargo wrote:
They don't have a need?

Pretty much all their main competitors do, and WN is one of the big boys now.


So WN should do something because most of their main competitors do it?

Most of their main competitors have been bankrupt, some of them multiple times. Would you recommend WN go bankrupt because most of their main competitors have been bankrupt?

Pretty crazy argument you're making.


So they wouldn't want to take advantage of their enormous domestic network and use it to feed international flights, especially since they have no intention to acquire widebody aircraft themselves?

Got it.
 
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SRQKEF
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:13 am

jplatts wrote:
While the Southwest.com website is accessible from the US, Canada, Mexico, and some other countries in Central America and the Caribbean, the Southwest.com website is currently blocked by some countries in Europe, Asia, and Africa.

Countries where the Southwest.com website has been blocked include China, Finland, Greece, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Lithuania, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Russia, Singapore, South Africa, South Korea, Sweden, Switzerland, Thailand, Ukraine, and Vietnam, and all of these countries are located in either Europe, East Asia, Southeast Asia, or Africa.


Wasn’t that an old issue that has been resolved? I for one have booked WN tickets while in the Netherlands and in Sweden IIRC.
Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:14 am

FriscoHeavy wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Yossarian22 wrote:
If you are a business class passenger on an international itinerary, with a domestic connection in the U.S., which would you rather have Southwest, on a 737 or a small RJ that may or may not have business class, and even if it does have premium seating, it may be sold out?

The RJ (or any jet aircraft) with assigned seating, no question.


There is a question. I completely disagree and would be one to choose WN over an uncomfortable RJ (or the like).

I was not speaking for, nor would I care about, what you wanted... I was simply responding to the poster's question.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
jplatts
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:26 am

SRQKEF wrote:
Wasn’t that an old issue that has been resolved? I for one have booked WN tickets while in the Netherlands and in Sweden IIRC.


I had used some website reachability tools that show what countries Southwest.com is accessible in back in July of this year, and the website reachability tools show Southwest.com being blocked in some European countries but not in others.

Here is a link to an earlier post explaining the website reachability tools I used to check the reachability of https://www.southwest.com from various countries in the world: https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1398429&start=50#p20541397

I did run a website reachability test of https://www.southwest.com tonight, and the reachability tools show Southwest.com being blocked in Bulgaria, China, Czech Republic, Finland, Greece, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Latvia, Lithuania, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Russia, Singapore, South Korea, Sweden, Turkey, Ukraine, and Vietnam.

While there are some ISPs that in the Netherlands and Sweden that block https://www.southwest.com, there might be some other ISP's in the Netherlands and Sweden that allow access to https://www.southwest.com.
 
Fargo
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:29 am

SWApilotfarmer wrote:
Fargo wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
I think you're confusing two things, codesharing and interlining.

WN appears to have no desire to do either; codesharing only works when another carrier has a ticketing agreement with you, and WN's model avoids that. WN's model also avoids interline ticketing and bag agreements, as those bring added costs.

In short, they don't appear to have a need or desire to do either - why fix what's not broken?


They don't have a need?

Pretty much all their main competitors do, and WN is one of the big boys now. By not providing codeshare/interline agreements to connect WN passengers to international flights, along with their refusal to get a smaller plane fleet to fly into smaller markets that can't support 737's, they will be backing themselves into a corner and it will come back to bite them at some point. Their current strategy will only work for so long before they run out of growth opportunities due to the limitations of the 737 and their lack of partners.

It may not be broken now, but in due time, it will be.



What exactly are you basing this on? I’m guessing nothing and this is just your opinion. That is fine but a bit dramatic. If I had to guess I would bet that if we were to add another fleet type one day it would be for larger jets not smaller ones. The leaving money on the table talk is just like with the free bags. People act like WN does not study this or run any numbers or think things through. I’m not sure the economics of the A220 vs the 737 but I bet management knows. I’m glad we don’t do things the big boys do like giving away a bunch of flying to RJ’s. The benefits of a single fleet are huge and don’t worry about it biting us. We will be ok.


I am basing it on the fact that I have trouble seeing many additional growth opportunities for WN with just the 737 and no codeshares. After Hawaii, maybe Canada and Alaska, but what else? I don't understand why you guys do not wish to use your enormous domestic network to feed flights to Europe and Asia, since you have no intention on acquiring widebody aircraft (like the 787) and flying there yourself. You guys could get a huge advantage over the US3 if you did, considering all the mini-hubs it would create.

I am also glad you don't fly regional jets, but it would be nice if you got a bit smaller sub fleet type (such as the A220 or the E2) to fly into some smaller markets that cannot support 737's. They would still be run by SWA pilots and not regional airlines. You wouldn't even need to get that much of them, maybe 30-50 and base it out of your larger stations.

No, this is not out of hate for WN or anything, quite the opposite. I like free bags, friendly customer service, etc, it's just frustrating that I cannot use WN for international itineraries and smaller markets like MSN, XNA, TYS, etc.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:53 am

jplatts wrote:
While the Southwest.com website is accessible from the US, Canada, Mexico, and some other countries in Central America and the Caribbean, the Southwest.com website is currently blocked by some countries in Europe, Asia, and Africa.

Countries where the Southwest.com website has been blocked include China, Finland, Greece, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Lithuania, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Russia, Singapore, South Africa, South Korea, Sweden, Switzerland, Thailand, Ukraine, and Vietnam, and all of these countries are located in either Europe, East Asia, Southeast Asia, or Africa.

The lack of access to the Southwest.com website from some European and Asian countries is one factor that stands in the way of a WN codeshare or interline with an European or Asian carrier, and this issue would need to be addressed if WN enters into a codeshare or interline relationship with an European or Asian airline.


I wasn't aware that Southwest.com was blocked by so many countries. I wonder why? Anyway my wife's parents can get me to buy tickets for them. WN's generous 2 free bag service makes them a really convenient way to get around the US once after entering the country, especially on one-way and multicity itineraries. Being able to carry everything at no additional cost is important.
 
SWApilotfarmer
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:59 am

Fargo wrote:
SWApilotfarmer wrote:
Fargo wrote:

They don't have a need?

Pretty much all their main competitors do, and WN is one of the big boys now. By not providing codeshare/interline agreements to connect WN passengers to international flights, along with their refusal to get a smaller plane fleet to fly into smaller markets that can't support 737's, they will be backing themselves into a corner and it will come back to bite them at some point. Their current strategy will only work for so long before they run out of growth opportunities due to the limitations of the 737 and their lack of partners.

It may not be broken now, but in due time, it will be.



What exactly are you basing this on? I’m guessing nothing and this is just your opinion. That is fine but a bit dramatic. If I had to guess I would bet that if we were to add another fleet type one day it would be for larger jets not smaller ones. The leaving money on the table talk is just like with the free bags. People act like WN does not study this or run any numbers or think things through. I’m not sure the economics of the A220 vs the 737 but I bet management knows. I’m glad we don’t do things the big boys do like giving away a bunch of flying to RJ’s. The benefits of a single fleet are huge and don’t worry about it biting us. We will be ok.


I am basing it on the fact that I have trouble seeing many additional growth opportunities for WN with just the 737 and no codeshares. After Hawaii, maybe Canada and Alaska, but what else? I don't understand why you guys do not wish to use your enormous domestic network to feed flights to Europe and Asia, since you have no intention on acquiring widebody aircraft (like the 787) and flying there yourself. You guys could get a huge advantage over the US3 if you did, considering all the mini-hubs it would create.

I am also glad you don't fly regional jets, but it would be nice if you got a bit smaller sub fleet type (such as the A220 or the E2) to fly into some smaller markets that cannot support 737's. They would still be run by SWA pilots and not regional airlines. You wouldn't even need to get that much of them, maybe 30-50 and base it out of your larger stations.

No, this is not out of hate for WN or anything, quite the opposite. I like free bags, friendly customer service, etc, it's just frustrating that I cannot use WN for international itineraries and smaller markets like MSN, XNA, TYS, etc.



I understand what you are saying and I would just say that you never know what may not be to far down the road. Yes as off right now there is no talk of additional fleets. We are still fairly new to near international and still working on ETOPS. As we work that out and move forward I think there is a better chance to see some different things happening here including an additional fleet. I think most all pilots here would be more than happy to fly an A220 or a 787 in Southwest colors or really anything for that matter. But a new fleet type here is a big deal. It may not seem like much but it literally changes everything at WN. If there is money to be made I’m sure they are looking into it. They are not perfect by any means but I do think think they are constantly looking into additional growth and revenue opportunities. We have been doing the same thing for a long time. Sometimes when we try something new we seem to be reinventing the wheel for no good reason. Again the WN of today and the WN of even just 10 years ago are very different. Might look very different in another 10 years.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:04 am

Fargo wrote:
it's just frustrating that I cannot use WN for international itineraries and smaller markets like MSN, XNA, TYS, etc.


You CAN do all of that, the same way everyone else that flies WN and connects does; buy separate tickets and allow enough time to claim your bags from WN and re-check on your connecting carrier.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
jplatts
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:11 am

Fargo wrote:
I am basing it on the fact that I have trouble seeing many additional growth opportunities for WN with just the 737 and no codeshares. After Hawaii, maybe Canada and Alaska, but what else?


While WN currently only serves ATL nonstop from RIC, there are still some other nonstop routes such as RIC-MDW, RIC-DEN, RIC-BNA, and RIC-TPA that could be added by WN at RIC. I am also surprised that WN hasn't yet added any new nonstop routes out of RIC since WN's entry into RIC, and RIC is the only WN destination outside of smaller Texas markets and international destinations where WN didn't add any new nonstop routes since WN's entry into that market.

While WN currently only serves BWI, MDW, and DEN nonstop from CVG, there are other nonstop routes such as CVG-BOS, CVG-DAL, CVG-FLL, CVG-HOU, CVG-MCI, CVG-LAS, CVG-STL, and CVG-TPA that could be added by WN at CVG. WN could also expand CVG-PHX nonstop service to year-round, daily nonstop service.

WN also has opportunities to start service out of SYR, and WN could add SYR-BWI, SYR-MDW, SYR-DEN, SYR-LAS, SYR-MCO, and SYR-TPA nonstop service if WN adds service to SYR. There have also been other individuals who have mentioned WN possibly adding service to SYR on the Airliners.net forums.

There are still plenty of new nonstop routes between existing WN stations in the contiguous U.S. that could be added by WN.

I agree that WN could expand to Alaska, and there have been articles that said that WN was considering adding service to ANC. WN could serve ANC nonstop from MDW, DEN, HNL, LAS, OAK, PHX, and PDX if WN starts service to ANC. In addition, WN would also be able to easily connect passengers to Alaska from most of its destinations in the contiguous U.S. if it adds ANC-MDW, ANC-LAS, ANC-OAK, and ANC-PDX nonstop service.

WN had previously stated that it wants to add service to Canada and additional international destinations in Latin America. It is also very likely that WN will add service to new Mexican destinations that aren't currently served by WN.
 
IPFreely
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:54 am

Fargo wrote:
So they wouldn't want to take advantage of their enormous domestic network and use it to feed international flights, especially since they have no intention to acquire widebody aircraft themselves?

Got it.


So you think it's just free revenue with no costs or risks? Got it. You should probably be sharing your wisdom with the Southwest Board of Directors instead of a message board.
 
Chemist
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:32 am

Fargo wrote:
SWApilotfarmer wrote:
Fargo wrote:

They don't have a need?

Pretty much all their main competitors do, and WN is one of the big boys now. By not providing codeshare/interline agreements to connect WN passengers to international flights, along with their refusal to get a smaller plane fleet to fly into smaller markets that can't support 737's, they will be backing themselves into a corner and it will come back to bite them at some point. Their current strategy will only work for so long before they run out of growth opportunities due to the limitations of the 737 and their lack of partners.

It may not be broken now, but in due time, it will be.



What exactly are you basing this on? I’m guessing nothing and this is just your opinion. That is fine but a bit dramatic. If I had to guess I would bet that if we were to add another fleet type one day it would be for larger jets not smaller ones. The leaving money on the table talk is just like with the free bags. People act like WN does not study this or run any numbers or think things through. I’m not sure the economics of the A220 vs the 737 but I bet management knows. I’m glad we don’t do things the big boys do like giving away a bunch of flying to RJ’s. The benefits of a single fleet are huge and don’t worry about it biting us. We will be ok.


I am basing it on the fact that I have trouble seeing many additional growth opportunities for WN with just the 737 and no codeshares. After Hawaii, maybe Canada and Alaska, but what else? I don't understand why you guys do not wish to use your enormous domestic network to feed flights to Europe and Asia, since you have no intention on acquiring widebody aircraft (like the 787) and flying there yourself. You guys could get a huge advantage over the US3 if you did, considering all the mini-hubs it would create.

I am also glad you don't fly regional jets, but it would be nice if you got a bit smaller sub fleet type (such as the A220 or the E2) to fly into some smaller markets that cannot support 737's. They would still be run by SWA pilots and not regional airlines. You wouldn't even need to get that much of them, maybe 30-50 and base it out of your larger stations.

No, this is not out of hate for WN or anything, quite the opposite. I like free bags, friendly customer service, etc, it's just frustrating that I cannot use WN for international itineraries and smaller markets like MSN, XNA, TYS, etc.


I find the two-tier RJ approach by the big 3 to be a big PITA. Small planes, the plane says my airline but doesn't REALLY get run by my airline, I have to get-check my roller bag, service is inconsistent, etc. And I've code shared and the airline I book with says call the other airline for seat assignment, the other airline says talk to the first airline, I have to wait until 36 or 24 hours prior to get my assigned seat on the codeshare airline, I have to go to a different terminal for the codeshare airline even though my flight says it's MY airline -- frankly it is such a big pain these codeshares and 2nd tier regional airlines. I'm extremely glad that WN gives me a consistent and good experience.

As far as the reach of the 737 - well Copa covers all the Americas with the 737. Other airlines fly to Europe on the 737. I would think the only near-term limits of the 737 are no Asia or Middle East or Oceana. Not sure WN would be interested in those anytime soon, Perhaps call back in 10 or 20 years.
 
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SRQKEF
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Re: When will WN begin codesharing with international airlines?

Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:04 am

jplatts wrote:
SRQKEF wrote:
Wasn’t that an old issue that has been resolved? I for one have booked WN tickets while in the Netherlands and in Sweden IIRC.


I had used some website reachability tools that show what countries Southwest.com is accessible in back in July of this year, and the website reachability tools show Southwest.com being blocked in some European countries but not in others.

Here is a link to an earlier post explaining the website reachability tools I used to check the reachability of https://www.southwest.com from various countries in the world: https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1398429&start=50#p20541397

I did run a website reachability test of https://www.southwest.com tonight, and the reachability tools show Southwest.com being blocked in Bulgaria, China, Czech Republic, Finland, Greece, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Latvia, Lithuania, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Russia, Singapore, South Korea, Sweden, Turkey, Ukraine, and Vietnam.

While there are some ISPs that in the Netherlands and Sweden that block https://www.southwest.com, there might be some other ISP's in the Netherlands and Sweden that allow access to https://www.southwest.com.


Understood, thanks for the explanation!
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