MEA-707
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Rumour: KLM will not get A350s at all

Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:59 pm

according to https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... m=facebook (sorry, in Dutch), insiders have heared that KLM will not take any A350s at all. Probably All of 25 on order will go to Air France and Joon (or perhaps a new Long haul LCC project if Joon is ditched).
Originally KLM would get 7 to replace the last 747s. Earlier rumors KLM wouldn't get them were always denied, and officially still are.

Actually it doesn't surprise me a bit. KLM will take 787-10s in the next three years, the first of which are already in pre-production, and it seems they like the 787.
The A350 would have almost the same capacity, maybe a bit more range but KLM doesn't need that at this time. They use the 777 for long routes like SIN and EZE and the 787-10 can do any routes they would need them for.
KLM (and Air France) have large fleets of 777-200s and 300ERs. I can see the A350 might eventually have a chance again when they are up to replacement, say after 2025, and when they don't take the 777-9.
I hope so actually, I think the A350 is more comfortable in Economy (3+3+3 seating) than the 787 or the 777.
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ikolkyo
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:00 pm

Makes sense, no need to add another fleet type if it isn’t necessary.
 
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Slash787
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:12 pm

Well I heard this thing a year ago that the A350 will go to Air France and KLM won't take it, I heard it from someone working for KLM, but well I can't give 100% guarantee to this news. I guess people in the top management will decide eventually.
 
upperdeckfan
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:12 pm

Question is why AF/KL did go for 350 instead of ordering only 787-10 to replace KL's 747 and AF's older 772's and 343's?
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MrHMSH
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:18 pm

A shame that we won't see A350s in KL's lovely livery, but 7 A350s were always going to be a bit of an oddball, especially for an airline with 789s and 78Xs in the fleet/on order.

upperdeckfan wrote:
Question is why AF/KL did go for 350 instead of ordering only 787-10 to replace KL's 747 and AF's older 772's and 343's?


AF use the 772 and A343 on some longer routes, so the extra lifting power is helpful. The 78X wouldn't be as good on these.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:35 pm

Makes sense. They have enough 787-9s and 777-300ERs for their South America and Asia Routes. 787-10s will do well on Africa and North America flights. A350 is a bit superfluous until they are looking at 777 replacements. There may be an A350neo by then. 787-10s probably make more sense to replace some current 747 routes like JFK, ORD, YYZ, and NBO. A 787-10 has more cargo volume than an A350-900. It is a great cargo hauler for Transatlantic.
Last edited by Newbiepilot on Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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keesje
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:38 pm

Agree this make sense. KLM doctrine used to be subfleets of less then 10 aircraft of a type doesn't make sense. That could mean a few more 787-10's are coming in.
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PHBVF
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:43 pm

keesje wrote:
Agree this make sense. KLM doctrine used to be subfleets of less then 10 aircraft of a type doesn't make sense. That could mean a few more 787-10's are coming in.

Though I would not rule out more 787-10s it is not as much of an oddball. Mx wise they have a high commonality with the 789 and pilots/cabin crew will fly both the 777 and 787s as if they are one type.
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Iemand91
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:44 pm

The thread title is a bit premature. Until AF/KLM officially announce it, KLM will still receive A350's.

This story of will-they-won't-they is going on for years now all the way to stories of KLM having all the 787's and no A350's and AF al the A350's and no 787's.
Or changing the entire or part of the A350 order to A350-1000's.

So to be honest; I take everything with a grain of salt until it's official.
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aemoreira1981
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:47 pm

The Air France B789s should be transferred to KLM with the A350s to AF to retire the B77E frames as well as to bump some “domestic” B77Ws to replace A388s. Those A350s could be in domestic (overseas departments) configuration) with 350 or so seats. Easier to fill than a 468-seat B77W even if those routes are PSOs.
 
StudiodeKadent
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:07 pm

Does KLM need the range of the A350 at all?

The only places that KLM might fly to which seem to challenge the 787-10 are Jakarta and Denpasar, and the 787-9 is more than capable of flights there. Santiago seems beyond 787-10 capability but again the 787-9 is a thing. I can't see the A350-900 being useful for KLM unless they want to fly to PER (and even then, they probably have too dense a configuration to do that), or they can't upgauge frequencies to DPS/CGK/SCL.

Adding another fleet type? Seems like superfluous complexity.
 
tonystan
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:39 pm

Sounds like Joon is to be wound down soon so doubt they are going there.
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Polot
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:49 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
The Air France B789s should be transferred to KLM with the A350s to AF to retire the B77E frames as well as to bump some “domestic” B77Ws to replace A388s. Those A350s could be in domestic (overseas departments) configuration) with 350 or so seats. Easier to fill than a 468-seat B77W even if those routes are PSOs.

Ok but then what will replace the 789s at AF (which replaced the A343s almost perfectly)?
 
Bricktop
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:08 pm

And on topic, it's a pity. A KLM A350 would look aces.
 
airbuster
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:16 pm

Could someone explain to me the following reasoning:

We want AF to be leaner and more efficient. So what we do is go for an all 777/787 long haul fleet at KLM and a 777/787/330/350/380 fleet at AF. I just don’t get it. Someone at KLM is pulling some interesting strings.
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frigatebird
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:59 pm

Iemand91 wrote:
The thread title is a bit premature. Until AF/KLM officially announce it, KLM will still receive A350's.

This story of will-they-won't-they is going on for years now all the way to stories of KLM having all the 787's and no A350's and AF al the A350's and no 787's.
Or changing the entire or part of the A350 order to A350-1000's.

So to be honest; I take everything with a grain of salt until it's official.

Agreed, we have heard these rumors so often, it’s hard to believe what is true or not.

Still, there have always been indications the A359 was doubtful at KLM:
Capacity overlap with the recently ordered 8 787-10s;
Never any indication about seat configs, while these were known years ago for the 787-9/10 and A359 for Joon;
KL never operates subfleets of less than 7 aircraft;
Too small to replace KL 744 full pax fleet;
Recent orders by lessors for 3-4 77W - one of which is ordered for BA, but the other?

Polot wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
The Air France B789s should be transferred to KLM with the A350s to AF to retire the B77E frames as well as to bump some “domestic” B77Ws to replace A388s. Those A350s could be in domestic (overseas departments) configuration) with 350 or so seats. Easier to fill than a 468-seat B77W even if those routes are PSOs.

Ok but then what will replace the 789s at AF (which replaced the A343s almost perfectly)?


The former KL A359s. Or KL and AF can swap their A330 and 789 fleets. The AF 787-9 is almost identical with KL’s 789, only difference is premium economy for AF and economy comfort for KL, which can easily be exchanged.
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:07 pm

StudiodeKadent wrote:
Does KLM need the range of the A350 at all?

The only places that KLM might fly to which seem to challenge the 787-10 are Jakarta and Denpasar, and the 787-9 is more than capable of flights there.

Jakarta and Denpasar (and Manila) have a stop so for those more range it wouldn’t be needed. Though for Peru, Brasil, Argentina, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore and South Africa KL does need more range than the 787-10. Many more destinations (Japan, Westcoast US, Mexico and Southeast Asia) are close to the maximum range of the 787-10) so if KL needs many planes with more range will depend on the real-world efficient range of the 787-10. Till the 777’s are retired the range/capacity of the A350 isn’t needed either way.

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marcelh
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:33 pm

Jetty wrote:
Till the 777’s are retired the range/capacity of the A350 isn’t needed either way.


The first 77E are just 15 years old, so they don’t have to be remplaced within a few years. I see the A359 as a potential 77E remplacement. The 787-9 has the legs, but has less seats, while the 787-10 is a bit bigger, but hasn’t got the same range.
But OTOH KLM is a Boeing/GE powerhouse and I don’t think KLM wants to change to an Airbus/RR plane.
 
ewt340
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:12 pm

Presumably, adding A350 to both KLM and Air France wouldn't be much of a problem since they are pretty much integrated in terms of maintenance and some aspect of operations.

What KLM would obviously looking into is the fact that big percentages of their B777-200ER and few of their B777-300ER are maturing in upcoming years. In 2025, most of B777 would needed to be retired and replaced. This is where A350-900 and A350-1000 would come up to play. Maybe if Airbus really go through with their A350neo, this might increase the chance for it.

But for now, KLM have the advantages of transferring their A350 to Air France in the future if they don't needed it. This is why there's a big chance that they would took the delivery either way.

As for the low number of A350 they order, there is a chance that they would increase their order for more A350-900 once they are ready to replace the rest of B777-200ER in upcoming years to come.

As for B777X. I don't think both Air France or KLM needed the capacity. Especially since both Airlines are not as premium heavy as LH or BA. They could easily fitted their B777-300ER with 400 seats in 3 class configs.
 
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:59 pm

ewt340 wrote:
Presumably, adding A350 to both KLM and Air France wouldn't be much of a problem since they are pretty much integrated in terms of maintenance and some aspect of operations.

What KLM would obviously looking into is the fact that big percentages of their B777-200ER and few of their B777-300ER are maturing in upcoming years. In 2025, most of B777 would needed to be retired and replaced. This is where A350-900 and A350-1000 would come up to play. Maybe if Airbus really go through with their A350neo, this might increase the chance for it.

But for now, KLM have the advantages of transferring their A350 to Air France in the future if they don't needed it. This is why there's a big chance that they would took the delivery either way.

As for the low number of A350 they order, there is a chance that they would increase their order for more A350-900 once they are ready to replace the rest of B777-200ER in upcoming years to come.

As for B777X. I don't think both Air France or KLM needed the capacity. Especially since both Airlines are not as premium heavy as LH or BA. They could easily fitted their B777-300ER with 400 seats in 3 class configs.


Air France Handles Very Premium Cabins, in fact the first class of AF is one of the most competitive and there are routes such as JNB, JFK, IAD, IAH, SFO, LAX, SIN, HKG, PVG, PEK, NRT, HND, DXB and GRU where they have a high demand for business passengers, in addition the AF products are VERY VERY SUPERIOR to those of BA, the executive classes of BA is like the premium economy of AF
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RainerBoeing777
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:40 pm

MEA-707 wrote:
according to https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... m=facebook (sorry, in Dutch), insiders have heared that KLM will not take any A350s at all. Probably All of 25 on order will go to Air France and Joon (or perhaps a new Long haul LCC project if Joon is ditched).
Originally KLM would get 7 to replace the last 747s. Earlier rumors KLM wouldn't get them were always denied, and officially still are.

Actually it doesn't surprise me a bit. KLM will take 787-10s in the next three years, the first of which are already in pre-production, and it seems they like the 787.
The A350 would have almost the same capacity, maybe a bit more range but KLM doesn't need that at this time. They use the 777 for long routes like SIN and EZE and the 787-10 can do any routes they would need them for.
KLM (and Air France) have large fleets of 777-200s and 300ERs. I can see the A350 might eventually have a chance again when they are up to replacement, say after 2025, and when they don't take the 777-9.
I hope so actually, I think the A350 is more comfortable in Economy (3+3+3 seating) than the 787 or the 777.


Air France - KLM did not have 25 A350 orders, currently it is 28, the order of 2 A380 was changed to 3 A350 more, the original plan was 18 A350 for AF and 7 for KLM, and AF had an order of 12 A380 initially and the last 2 are exchanged for A350, even in the Airbus website, it appears that AF-KL has 28 A350 in purchase
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atcsundevil
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:04 am

This thread isn't about the merits of the 787 as an aircraft, nor is it a comparison of the 787 and A350. Please keep the thread on topic without arguing over seat width and window shades — that's been discussed a million times, so it's time to agree to disagree, and discuss this topic rather than the same old stuff.

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LifelinerOne
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:34 am

What I find interesting is that Luchtvaartnieuws.nl is claiming the A350 is not coming to KLM (according to flight and maintenance crews), but at the same time publish an interview with the CEO of KLM who is stating the A350 is coming.

So, this is the typical position we face many times at this board. Who to believe? The CEO or the flight/maintenance crews....?

Let's just wait and see. I for one thing haven't heard anything from my sources that the A350 is not coming. They still see the future for the A350, especially down the road as a B777-200ER successor as the fleet planners aren't keen on the B777X so far.

Cheers :wave:
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JayBCNLON
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:35 am

Just another reason to avoid an airline that is no more than „reliable“. I have never seen an airline so generic as KLM, no specific flavor. They seem to cut corners where possible offering 10-abreast on 777 and 9-abreast on 787, no leather seats, difficult-to-use intransparent web site. That is so un-Dutch. The Dutch are always so outspoken, and they‘re the tallest nation on earth, why do they put up with an airline that does not reflect them?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:49 am

JayBCNLON wrote:
why do they put up with an airline that does not reflect them?


Perhaps it does reflect us, a very efficient airline ;-).

Anyhow, most passengers are foreign, not Dutch citizens. So we use other airlines instead.
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PHBVF
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:08 am

airbuster wrote:
Could someone explain to me the following reasoning:

We want AF to be leaner and more efficient. So what we do is go for an all 777/787 long haul fleet at KLM and a 777/787/330/350/380 fleet at AF. I just don’t get it. Someone at KLM is pulling some interesting strings.

Two different companies of a different scale. KLM currently has:
A332: 8
A333: 5
74M: 6
744: 5
772: 15
77W: 14
789: 13
Total: 66

While Air France has:
A332: 15
A343: 2+4 (Joon)
A388: 10
772: 25
77W: 43
789: 7
Total: 106

Say the total numbers will remain the same, as A350/787 are replacements for older aircraft, a mixed fleet makes more sense at the size of AF.
And don't forget A330/A340/A350 all fall under the same typerating as do the 777/787, so from a flight crew perspective there would be only one type at KL and three at AF)
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Floppie
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:38 am

I am a pilot for KLM and nobody informed us about a possible cancellation of the A350.
Luchtvaartnieuws.nl is just speculating. Maybe they are right, but KLM staff is not informed about this.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:13 am

Floppie wrote:
I am a pilot for KLM and nobody informed us about a possible cancellation of the A350.
Luchtvaartnieuws.nl is just speculating. Maybe they are right, but KLM staff is not informed about this.


Thank you. Wonder where Luchtvaartnieuws got their info from. Probably rehashing of old rumors. Not sure if they changed the title of the article, but it currently translates as something like: Question marks over KLM's A350 order.

But can we just speculate further from this point onwards? ;) :stirthepot:
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:25 am

frigatebird wrote:
Thank you. Wonder where Luchtvaartnieuws got their info from. Probably rehashing of old rumors. Not sure if they changed the title of the article, but it currently translates as something like: Question marks over KLM's A350 order.

But can we just speculate further from this point onwards? ;) :stirthepot:


Ok,
I would think they can better convert there order to the larger A350-1000.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:36 am

tvh wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
Thank you. Wonder where Luchtvaartnieuws got their info from. Probably rehashing of old rumors. Not sure if they changed the title of the article, but it currently translates as something like: Question marks over KLM's A350 order.

But can we just speculate further from this point onwards? ;) :stirthepot:


Ok,
I would think they can better convert there order to the larger A350-1000.


I agree the -1000 would be a better replacement for KL's 744s. But the A35K would still seat around 25 less than the 744. With AMS restricted on flight movements, it's an interesting question for KL which would be more profitable: keeping the same number of seats replacing the remaining 744s with additional 77W, or reducing cost even further with A35K - but also carrying 5-10% less pax.
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Re: Rumour: KLM will not get A350s at all

Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:37 am

I also don't understand the KL A350 order but it does have more range. Another good point is, that everbody is only looking at the 7 frames they have on order now without thinking they will most likely place more orders in the future if they decide to keep the A350. KL has a large 772 fleet that will need replacements. The A350 seems to be the perfect fit for this.

I think KL is looking at whether they will need more A350s in the future to determine whether they will keep the 7 A350s they have on order now. To me, that is the deciding factor.

Time will tell.

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ewt340
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:41 am

RainerBoeing777 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Presumably, adding A350 to both KLM and Air France wouldn't be much of a problem since they are pretty much integrated in terms of maintenance and some aspect of operations.

What KLM would obviously looking into is the fact that big percentages of their B777-200ER and few of their B777-300ER are maturing in upcoming years. In 2025, most of B777 would needed to be retired and replaced. This is where A350-900 and A350-1000 would come up to play. Maybe if Airbus really go through with their A350neo, this might increase the chance for it.

But for now, KLM have the advantages of transferring their A350 to Air France in the future if they don't needed it. This is why there's a big chance that they would took the delivery either way.

As for the low number of A350 they order, there is a chance that they would increase their order for more A350-900 once they are ready to replace the rest of B777-200ER in upcoming years to come.

As for B777X. I don't think both Air France or KLM needed the capacity. Especially since both Airlines are not as premium heavy as LH or BA. They could easily fitted their B777-300ER with 400 seats in 3 class configs.


Air France Handles Very Premium Cabins, in fact the first class of AF is one of the most competitive and there are routes such as JNB, JFK, IAD, IAH, SFO, LAX, SIN, HKG, PVG, PEK, NRT, HND, DXB and GRU where they have a high demand for business passengers, in addition the AF products are VERY VERY SUPERIOR to those of BA, the executive classes of BA is like the premium economy of AF


While they have superior business class seats compared to LH and BA. It doesn't mean they carry more business class seats per aircraft. If we compared their configurations.
AF's A340, A350, B787, at least half of their B777-200ER and MOST of their B777-300ER are low in premium classes compared to LH or BA.

Only All their A330-200 and A380 have heavy premium seats.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Rumour: KLM will not get A350s at all

Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:13 pm

Makes sense. There is no need to have the 77W and A350 in the same fleet. They are pretty much identical in range and capacity. No need to complicate fleet.
 
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Re: Rumour: KLM will not get A350s at all

Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:43 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Makes sense. There is no need to have the 77W and A350 in the same fleet. They are pretty much identical in range and capacity. No need to complicate fleet.


The A350-900s are expected to have 324 seats, which is closer to the 316 seat 777-200ER. KLM has 408 seats in their 777-300ERs. All have identical sized 34 seat business class cabins. The 77W is notably bigger than an A359.

The A350-900 slots between the 294 and 344 seat 787-9 and 787-10, but KLM already has that capacity pretty well covered. 6 widebodie sizes with A330s, 777s and 787s should adequately cover their needs.
 
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Re: Rumour: KLM will not get A350s at all

Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:54 pm

Maybe things will be clearer when AF-KLM make their decision regarding the A320/737 replacements. If and I do stress the word *if* its a split order A320neo for AF and 737 MAX for KL, then there would be more of case for this rumour to come to fruition and move the A350's over to AF and perhaps move some (all?) 787's over to KLM.

Certainly some interesting times ahead for the AF-KLM group fleet renewal.
 
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boris888
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Re: Rumour: KLM will not get A350s at all

Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:09 pm

pro's of migration to one airline manufacturer for ICA network would be numerous...
A benefits for E&M (only boeing license for groundengineers), suppose would apple for spare parts
B benefits for cockpit crew effeciency when operating only 777/789
C higher fleet utilization x due easier interchangeability
 
RainerBoeing777
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:15 pm

ewt340 wrote:
RainerBoeing777 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Presumably, adding A350 to both KLM and Air France wouldn't be much of a problem since they are pretty much integrated in terms of maintenance and some aspect of operations.

What KLM would obviously looking into is the fact that big percentages of their B777-200ER and few of their B777-300ER are maturing in upcoming years. In 2025, most of B777 would needed to be retired and replaced. This is where A350-900 and A350-1000 would come up to play. Maybe if Airbus really go through with their A350neo, this might increase the chance for it.

But for now, KLM have the advantages of transferring their A350 to Air France in the future if they don't needed it. This is why there's a big chance that they would took the delivery either way.

As for the low number of A350 they order, there is a chance that they would increase their order for more A350-900 once they are ready to replace the rest of B777-200ER in upcoming years to come.

As for B777X. I don't think both Air France or KLM needed the capacity. Especially since both Airlines are not as premium heavy as LH or BA. They could easily fitted their B777-300ER with 400 seats in 3 class configs.


Air France Handles Very Premium Cabins, in fact the first class of AF is one of the most competitive and there are routes such as JNB, JFK, IAD, IAH, SFO, LAX, SIN, HKG, PVG, PEK, NRT, HND, DXB and GRU where they have a high demand for business passengers, in addition the AF products are VERY VERY SUPERIOR to those of BA, the executive classes of BA is like the premium economy of AF


While they have superior business class seats compared to LH and BA. It doesn't mean they carry more business class seats per aircraft. If we compared their configurations.
AF's A340, A350, B787, at least half of their B777-200ER and MOST of their B777-300ER are low in premium classes compared to LH or BA.

Only All their A330-200 and A380 have heavy premium seats.



AF and almost the same level as BA and LH also have models for high capacity missions without so much premium cabin, The Boeing 787 of Air France have more cabin than many operators of B789 and an excellent business cabin and economy premium, The Boeing 777 -300ER are configured with 290 positions a very heavy premium configuration for a B77W plus these have 5 classes adding economy plus, the same with the Boeing 777-200ER even the majority are configured with 280 seats with a considerable premium cabin more than BA
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caverunner17
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:44 pm

JayBCNLON wrote:
Just another reason to avoid an airline that is no more than „reliable“. I have never seen an airline so generic as KLM, no specific flavor. They seem to cut corners where possible offering 10-abreast on 777 and 9-abreast on 787, no leather seats, difficult-to-use intransparent web site.

So like pretty much every other operator of the 777 and 787's.
 
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Re: Rumour: KLM will not get A350s at all

Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:23 pm

boris888 wrote:
pro's of migration to one airline manufacturer for ICA network would be numerous...
A benefits for E&M (only boeing license for groundengineers), suppose would apple for spare parts
B benefits for cockpit crew effeciency when operating only 777/789
C higher fleet utilization x due easier interchangeability

D all prepared for the inevitable AF-KLM divorce, says a.net.
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ewt340
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:35 pm

RainerBoeing777 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
RainerBoeing777 wrote:

Air France Handles Very Premium Cabins, in fact the first class of AF is one of the most competitive and there are routes such as JNB, JFK, IAD, IAH, SFO, LAX, SIN, HKG, PVG, PEK, NRT, HND, DXB and GRU where they have a high demand for business passengers, in addition the AF products are VERY VERY SUPERIOR to those of BA, the executive classes of BA is like the premium economy of AF


While they have superior business class seats compared to LH and BA. It doesn't mean they carry more business class seats per aircraft. If we compared their configurations.
AF's A340, A350, B787, at least half of their B777-200ER and MOST of their B777-300ER are low in premium classes compared to LH or BA.

Only All their A330-200 and A380 have heavy premium seats.



AF and almost the same level as BA and LH also have models for high capacity missions without so much premium cabin, The Boeing 787 of Air France have more cabin than many operators of B789 and an excellent business cabin and economy premium, The Boeing 777 -300ER are configured with 290 positions a very heavy premium configuration for a B77W plus these have 5 classes adding economy plus, the same with the Boeing 777-200ER even the majority are configured with 280 seats with a considerable premium cabin more than BA


I don't think so, AF's B787-9 have similar configurations to operator like AA, Air Canada, Air China, LATAM, Hainan Airlines, Vietnam Airlines, or Virgin, heck even KLM carry more premium economy seats on its B787-9. Compared to Premium heavy B787-9 from other Airlines like BA, ANA, JAL and Qantas.

Again, some of B777-200ER have heavy premium seats, but some of them are not. Same goes with B777-300ER.
 
airbuster
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:52 pm

Floppie wrote:
I am a pilot for KLM and nobody informed us about a possible cancellation of the A350.
Luchtvaartnieuws.nl is just speculating. Maybe they are right, but KLM staff is not informed about this.


I am a Airbus pilot for KLM and whilst I haven’t read it black on white. I have heard senior management and EVP flight ops Vincent van Hooff say it. The A350 isn’t coming to KLM.
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rbavfan
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Re: Rumour: KLM will not get A350s at all

Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:08 pm

MEA-707 wrote:
according to https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... m=facebook (sorry, in Dutch), insiders have heared that KLM will not take any A350s at all. Probably All of 25 on order will go to Air France and Joon (or perhaps a new Long haul LCC project if Joon is ditched).
Originally KLM would get 7 to replace the last 747s. Earlier rumors KLM wouldn't get them were always denied, and officially still are.

Actually it doesn't surprise me a bit. KLM will take 787-10s in the next three years, the first of which are already in pre-production, and it seems they like the 787.
The A350 would have almost the same capacity, maybe a bit more range but KLM doesn't need that at this time. They use the 777 for long routes like SIN and EZE and the 787-10 can do any routes they would need them for.
KLM (and Air France) have large fleets of 777-200s and 300ERs. I can see the A350 might eventually have a chance again when they are up to replacement, say after 2025, and when they don't take the 777-9.
I hope so actually, I think the A350 is more comfortable in Economy (3+3+3 seating) than the 787 or the 777.


If its 3+3+3 seating on 777 and on A350 the 777 would be more comfortable than the A350 thats got a narrower cabin.
 
MEA-707
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:36 pm

airbuster wrote:
Floppie wrote:
I am a pilot for KLM and nobody informed us about a possible cancellation of the A350.
Luchtvaartnieuws.nl is just speculating. Maybe they are right, but KLM staff is not informed about this.


I am a Airbus pilot for KLM and whilst I haven’t read it black on white. I have heard senior management and EVP flight ops Vincent van Hooff say it. The A350 isn’t coming to KLM.

I am also sure, was not my choice that someone later put "rumor" in front of my topic name :-D
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MartijnNL
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:52 pm

JayBCNLON wrote:
Just another reason to avoid an airline that is no more than „reliable“.

That KLM might not get the A350 is a reason for you to avoid the airline?

JayBCNLON wrote:
I have never seen an airline so generic as KLM, no specific flavor. They seem to cut corners where possible offering 10-abreast on 777 and 9-abreast on 787, no leather seats, difficult-to-use intransparent web site. (...)

Doesn't almost every airline offer 10-abreast on the 777 and 9-abreast on the 787?

No leather seats? What's so great about leather seats? Easier to clean maybe, but nothing else in my opinion. Two days ago I travelled on leather seats with Swiss, yesterday on fabric seats with easyJet. I really preferred the last ones, so much more comfortable.

KLM's website difficult to use? What are you talking about? There's nothing wrong with it. I really like the fact that you can have a look at seat availability before having to fill in personal details.
 
strfyr51
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:21 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Makes sense, no need to add another fleet type if it isn’t necessary.

Especially if it keeps costs in line flying one brand with many interchangeable parts. Down to tires and Brakes.
 
marcelh
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Re: KLM will not get A350s at all

Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:28 pm

airbuster wrote:
I am a Airbus pilot for KLM and whilst I haven’t read it black on white. I have heard senior management and EVP flight ops Vincent van Hooff say it. The A350 isn’t coming to KLM.


So in the future you have to ga back to the bells, whistles and yoke?
 
76er
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Re: Rumour: KLM will not get A350s at all

Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:07 pm

And the plot thickens. A KLM spokesperson has just confirmed to Dutch aviation website UpintheSky that the A350 is still scheduled to join the fleet in 2021:

Link (in Dutch, sorry):

https://www.upinthesky.nl/2018/12/20/kl ... s-in-2019/

The same article confirms that 4x787-10 will arrive in 2019.

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