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AC853
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Posts: 91
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:14 pm

Flair 737-400 seating capacity

Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:15 am

Is there a reason why Flair Air has not put 189 seats in their Boeing 737-400 fleet to increase their yields? I believe a 734 can accommodate the same number of seats as a 738 used by Swoop.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Flair 737-400 seating capacity

Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:30 am

I'll take a guess: 188Y (the maximum certified capacity of the 734; it can't do 189) would require all-new slim seating to have acceptable legroom, and the very limited remaining life of the 734 fleet doesn't justify the expense of a new interior.

By two years from now Flair should be an all-738 airline.
 
debonair
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Re: Flair 737-400 seating capacity

Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:03 am

seabosdca wrote:
I'll take a guess: 188Y (the maximum certified capacity of the 734; it can't do 189)


Are you sure?! It is impossible - never ever! The problem are the overwing exits, that's why Boeing develop new exits on the B737NG, to rise the capacity. Ok, wikipedia tells 188sets - but on Boeing web-page is one-class Y168 sets:
https://www.boeing.com/resources/boeing ... senger.pdf

But I think there were some charter airlines back in '80's or '90's with Y171 or Y172 seats - but that was the maximum...
 
MO11
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Re: Flair 737-400 seating capacity

Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:30 pm

debonair wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
I'll take a guess: 188Y (the maximum certified capacity of the 734; it can't do 189)


Are you sure?! It is impossible - never ever! The problem are the overwing exits, that's why Boeing develop new exits on the B737NG, to rise the capacity. Ok, wikipedia tells 188sets - but on Boeing web-page is one-class Y168 sets:
https://www.boeing.com/resources/boeing ... senger.pdf

But I think there were some charter airlines back in '80's or '90's with Y171 or Y172 seats - but that was the maximum...


The type certificate says 188......
 
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vhqpa
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Re: Flair 737-400 seating capacity

Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:49 pm

The -400 is also 3 metres shorter than a -800 so there is less space in the cabin.

Also increasing the seat count does not increase yields. It's all well and good if they can fill those extra seats with passengers with sustainable fares, but if they have to discount seats in order to go out full it decreases yields.
"There you go ladies and gentleman we're through Mach 1 the speed of sound no bumps no bangs... CONCORDE"
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Flair 737-400 seating capacity

Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:31 pm

The 734 is certified for 188 seats, but I haven't been able to find a real-world configuration higher than 168 (which is used by several ULCCs).

Again I would guess that is because it is not worth it for any airline to make the substantial investment in a brand-new interior with modern slim products for a 734. Most 734s are no longer in service; most 734s still in service are converted to cargo; and most of the few 734s still in passenger service will retire within the next couple of years. Now that MAXes are being delivered in quantity and first-tier operators are starting to replace early 738s, the economics of upgrading to 738s will get much easier for third-tier operators.
 
jimbo737
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Re: Flair 737-400 seating capacity

Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:15 pm

188 seats and bags reduces range.

Recall this story:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/flair- ... -1.4096090

I'll bet you lunch Flair won't be around to see anything more than a few ACMI - 800's this winter.

They have no capital, they acknowledge in filings to the Competition Bureau that they lost a staggering $10m from June to October 2018, a time when they should have been printing money given Cdn seasonality, and CUPE, one of the most hard core unions there is, got one look at the books a week ago and called off a strike of flight attendants to deal with a B Scale issue.

It wasn't too hard for CUPE to comprehend that ANY work stoppage would result in the airline collapsing before Xmas.

If Swoop were to have used 737-400's, their costs would be about 14% higher than they currently are. In a business where making 8% is considered success, having costs 14% higher than your principle competitor is a recipe for failure.

High costs and low fares remains a business strategy that rarely results in success.
 
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AC853
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Re: Flair 737-400 seating capacity

Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:48 am

[quote="vhqpa"]The -400 is also 3 metres shorter than a -800 so there is less space in the cabin.

Thanks. I always thought the 734 and 738 were the same size. Is the 733 the same size as the 737?
 
slcguy
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Re: Flair 737-400 seating capacity

Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:42 am

AC853 wrote:
vhqpa wrote:
The -400 is also 3 metres shorter than a -800 so there is less space in the cabin.

Thanks. I always thought the 734 and 738 were the same size. Is the 733 the same size as the 737?


Yes, the 733 and 73G are the same size. Here is a breakdown by size. Actual length of aircraft can vary by generation of 737.

B737-100
B737-200, -500, -600
B737-300, -700
B737-400
B737-800, -8M
B737-900, -900ER, -9M
B-737-10M
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Flair 737-400 seating capacity

Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:58 pm

slcguy wrote:
B737-100
B737-200, -500, -600
B737-300, -700
B737-400
B737-800, -8M
B737-900, -900ER, -9M
B-737-10M


There are a couple hairs to split here. The -500 and -600 are one frame longer than the -200. The -900 and -900ER/9 MAX have the same exterior fuselage length, but the -900ER and 9 MAX have a revised rear pressure bulkhead that provides about 1 m more length inside the cabin. So in terms of cabin space it's like this, covering every imaginable length:

-100
+2.5 m = -200
+ <1 m = -500, -600
+ 2.5 m = -300, -700
+ 2.5 m = MAX 7
+ 1 m = -400
+ 3 m = -800, MAX 8
+ 2.5 m = -900
+ 1 m = -900ER, MAX 9
+ 1.5 m = MAX 10
 
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vhqpa
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Re: Flair 737-400 seating capacity

Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:40 am

If we're talking exact lengths. Both the -600/-700 are about 20 centimetres longer than the -500/-300. I believe this is to accommodate the larger vertical stabiliser. But the cabin lengths could very well be same between the two pairs of models.
"There you go ladies and gentleman we're through Mach 1 the speed of sound no bumps no bangs... CONCORDE"

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