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Miami
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Miami to Asia still in the works

Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:21 pm

Another quarter, another MIA to Asia thread.

Over a year ago, it was said that MIA would have flights to Asia within 2 years. But so far, little to no progress has been made.

Chris Mangos, director of marketing at MIA, had this to say:
“[With] China, things have gotten a little more difficult,” he said. “There are terms of our [bilateral agreement] the US is claiming that China is not adhering to, and it has brought the two countries to an impasse. Until [those] accusations are straightened out, it’s highly doubtful we’re going to see any additional service into the United States by carriers.”


MIA continues to push for Taiwan flights (more in the article):
“China firmly controls the number of cities and people that travel through the Taiwan hub,” Mr. Mangos said.


What MIA is really hopeful for is a nonstop flight to Japan. Mr. Mangos is planning a meeting with both ANA and JAL next month and hoping to get some sort of commitment.
“My best guess – and we’re hoping to sit down with them in January, if all goes well – is we’ll probably get a commitment from them [the] second or third quarter of 2019 [for] service a year later – maybe [halfway] or two-quarters through 2020,” he said. “It would be a good catch for us.”


https://www.miamitodaynews.com/2018/12/ ... -in-works/


- Miami
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Sooner787
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:25 pm

JAL would be a natural with their Oneworld membership.

They also have 788's , which would be perfect plane to start such service.

I assume an loaded 788 could do MIA-NRT nonstop :)
 
YouGeeElWhy
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:31 pm

Not to be pedantic, but MIA already has flights to Asia via DOH and TLV.

Sooner787 wrote:
JAL would be a natural with their Oneworld membership.

They also have 788's , which would be perfect plane to start such service.

I assume an loaded 788 could do MIA-NRT nonstop :)
Not sure that the 787 has the legs. That being said you would think if it does not happen for the 2020 Olympics then it will not happen. Japan is the best bet for EAST Asia to MIA.
 
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:33 pm

This thread wouldn't exist if US-PRC was openskies. I think one of the Chinese Carriers, especially HU, would have bit on MIA-PEK if frequencies were available.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:21 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
They also have 788's , which would be perfect plane to start such service.

The 789 would be ideal.

YouGeeElWhy wrote:
Not to be pedantic, but MIA already has flights to Asia via DOH and TLV.

This is true. 'East Asia' would better fit the article.
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:01 pm

It seems to me that MIA-TPE would be a very long, thin route, but since it would be either BR or CI starting that route, maybe they'd go for it. It certainly wouldn't be AA starting that route. I'd say MIA-NRT is the best bet right now.
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ShinyAndChrome
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:14 pm

The Japanese consul in Miami made an interesting point about Japan-Latin America connections, but I was under the impression that a lot of that could already be covered by the ample connectivity between Japan and DFW. I remember reading AA specifically mentioning Asia-Latin America as one of DFW's best recent niches.
 
B1168
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:33 pm

It is pretty hard to see its purpose... Miami isn’t such a premium heavy city, and East Asians already have good sea&beach resorts closer to go (Hawaii for Japanese, Hainan Province+South Asia for Chinese)... If there is any plan, that should start with a 789 from Tokyo.
Transfer? Well... if I were traveling from Japan to S. America/ Caribbean, why not go to DFW or some random European hubs for transfer?
 
winginit
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:00 am

Let's be honest - if MIA-Asia wasn't launched when the economy was roaring and fuel was dirt cheap in 2016 and 2017, it ain't gonna happen as we step closer to an economic plateau and possible recession in the coming years. The purpose of such a route has already been in question for years, and the economics aren't going to get any better with time.

As was the case a few years ago, MIA-East Asia isn't going to happen in the next couple of years at least.
 
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:11 am

Miami wrote:
Another quarter, another MIA to Asia thread.

Over a year ago, it was said that MIA would have flights to Asia within 2 years. But so far, little to no progress has been made.

Chris Mangos, director of marketing at MIA, had this to say:
“[With] China, things have gotten a little more difficult,” he said. “There are terms of our [bilateral agreement] the US is claiming that China is not adhering to, and it has brought the two countries to an impasse. Until [those] accusations are straightened out, it’s highly doubtful we’re going to see any additional service into the United States by carriers.”


MIA continues to push for Taiwan flights (more in the article):
“China firmly controls the number of cities and people that travel through the Taiwan hub,” Mr. Mangos said.


What MIA is really hopeful for is a nonstop flight to Japan. Mr. Mangos is planning a meeting with both ANA and JAL next month and hoping to get some sort of commitment.
“My best guess – and we’re hoping to sit down with them in January, if all goes well – is we’ll probably get a commitment from them [the] second or third quarter of 2019 [for] service a year later – maybe [halfway] or two-quarters through 2020,” he said. “It would be a good catch for us.”


https://www.miamitodaynews.com/2018/12/ ... -in-works/


- Miami


The article mentions more then 17 hours from MIA to TPE is too long for a largely leisure sector. Tokyo being about 14 hours is much more viable with a bigger variety of planes, few planes can do 17 hours. Its the Japanese airlines are very conservative, a One World airline would be the obvious choice. JAL & AA seem to have net to no interest it it, AA is using a 787 from DFW to Anchorage, is that the best use for that airplane ? AA have some courage and bring Tokyo to MIA, please, with all the 777 AA uses in Miami one could fly to Japan or better yet a 787-9 on say Miami-NRT-LAX-NRT-MIA.
 
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:54 am

B1168 wrote:
It is pretty hard to see its purpose... Miami isn’t such a premium heavy city


Oh boy, now you've done it. That statement is as close to a.net sacrilege as you can come. The refrain we always hear is that Miami oozes premium demand to every market on earth, all year long, with absolutely no stimulation necessary.

I've been reading about how Miami-Asia flights are "just around the corner" for the entire 17 years I've been a member on this site.
 
B1168
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:13 am

jsnww81 wrote:
B1168 wrote:
It is pretty hard to see its purpose... Miami isn’t such a premium heavy city


Oh boy, now you've done it. That statement is as close to a.net sacrilege as you can come. The refrain we always hear is that Miami oozes premium demand to every market on earth, all year long, with absolutely no stimulation necessary.

I've been reading about how Miami-Asia flights are "just around the corner" for the entire 17 years I've been a member on this site.


By a relative means, is Miami even more premium heavy than New York? Considering the additional distance, any O&D can legitimately go via US/Europe/DOH... I do understand the painful feeling of failing to see a whole chunk of map empty for 17 yrs... cause between 1997 and 201x (presumably 2), the only flight from CAN to US is to LAX... and it isn’t improving...
 
RemoFlyer
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:08 am

jsnww81 wrote:
B1168 wrote:
It is pretty hard to see its purpose... Miami isn’t such a premium heavy city


Oh boy, now you've done it. That statement is as close to a.net sacrilege as you can come. The refrain we always hear is that Miami oozes premium demand to every market on earth, all year long, with absolutely no stimulation necessary.

I've been reading about how Miami-Asia flights are "just around the corner" for the entire 17 years I've been a member on this site.


One of our esteemed Miami boosters on this site (and there are a few) had a flyertalk post from 10-15(?) years back promising a 1-stop Miami to East Asia flight within a year. Every subsequent year it has probably always been "within a year", that way one day they will be correct!
 
RemoFlyer
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:10 am

ShinyAndChrome wrote:
The Japanese consul in Miami made an interesting point about Japan-Latin America connections, but I was under the impression that a lot of that could already be covered by the ample connectivity between Japan and DFW. I remember reading AA specifically mentioning Asia-Latin America as one of DFW's best recent niches.


AA is also actively developing the LAX - South America routes to provide easy access to SA markets for Asian travelers.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:18 am

OA412 wrote:
It seems to me that MIA-TPE would be a very long, thin route, but since it would be either BR or CI starting that route, maybe they'd go for it. It certainly wouldn't be AA starting that route. I'd say MIA-NRT is the best bet right now.


Well, let see, just from the article...

A direct 17.5-hour flight between Miami and Taipei is possible, as evidenced in June 2017 when Miami International Airport welcomed Taiwan President Tsia[sic] Ing-wen.
But regular flights would require “payload restrictions” limiting the number of seats sold, as cargo and passenger weight would need to be reduced to complete the 8,628-mile trip.
“If cargo is at a minimum and you have ‘x’ number of seats you cannot sell, you’re already not starting off on the right foot,” Mr. Chien said.


In another word, not going to happen. If there's anything that would really push the flight over the edge, it'll be cargo.

And I'm not even sure if this is true:
Poor standings with China, Mr. Mangos said, have bled over into air arrangements with the neighboring Taiwan, whose EVA Air and China Airlines depend on travelers from the mainland.
“China firmly controls the number of cities and people that travel through the Taiwan hub,” he said.


While the 2nd part is true (Most mainland Chinese can't even transit at TPE), the first part is certain not true for transit anyway, especially with the much increased amount of flights between US and Mainland (Ask CX about how things are going for China-US transit traffic).

B1168 wrote:
By a relative means, is Miami even more premium heavy than New York? Considering the additional distance, any O&D can legitimately go via US/Europe/DOH... I do understand the painful feeling of failing to see a whole chunk of map empty for 17 yrs... cause between 1997 and 201x (presumably 2), the only flight from CAN to US is to LAX... and it isn’t improving...


Except CAN has HKG as the giant in its backyard with tons of existing TPAC non-stops. And even within PRD, anyone south of Dongguan on the east side and Zhongshan on the west side can use HKG just as easily (if not easier) than CAN.

B1168 wrote:
Transfer? Well... if I were traveling from Japan to S. America/ Caribbean, why not go to DFW or some random European hubs for transfer?


Or even DXB/DOH, at least going to Brazil (Which is by far the largest Lat.Am. market to/from Japan). Actually between LAX, DFW, and JFK, the major destinations are covered by AA or LA. The only place where MIA really shine would be Caribbean.

P.S. Yeah, they have been working on getting a flight to East Asia for how long now? Hack, even PIT got a charter to China, and still nothing at MIA.
P.S. Will see whether BER opens first, Baltia finally fly its first flight, or MIA getting a flight to E. Asia first.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:27 am

Its hard to believe that Oneworld fortresses like PHX and MIA still dont have a nonstop to NRT. PHX is barely getting its largest carrier in to LHR.
When wasn't America great?


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B1168
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:43 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
OA412 wrote:
Or even DXB/DOH, at least going to Brazil (Which is by far the largest Lat.Am. market to/from Japan). Actually between LAX, DFW, and JFK, the major destinations are covered by AA or LA. The only place where MIA really shine would be Caribbean.

P.S. Yeah, they have been working on getting a flight to East Asia for how long now? Hack, even PIT got a charter to China, and still nothing at MIA.
P.S. Will see whether BER opens first, Baltia finally fly its first flight, or MIA getting a flight to E. Asia first.

That is also relatively redundant. Remember, those European carriers do need the Caribbean as part of their business.
Miami’s advantage lies in those smaller cities (no larger than BSB/Brasilia) which has no other US destinations or major European hub destinations. However, this reason might be worth questioning, considering that it is going to be (presumably) longer than CTU-JFK, the longest 787-8 commercial flight operated(though no longer so), making it hard to choose a plane to operate.
PS, don’t tell me it is A330-800neo.
 
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:49 am

TWA772LR wrote:
Its hard to believe that Oneworld fortresses like PHX and MIA still dont have a nonstop to NRT. PHX is barely getting its largest carrier in to LHR.


Phoenix? Phoenix? Come on, Phoenix is used mainly as a domestic hub fo East&West traffic... you’re supposed to fly to LAX first unless a TPAC LLC disease (like HU, but no US state can pay subsidies like Chinese do) spread out like Norwegian.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:50 am

I don't think enough people are willing to pay a premium for a nonstop to Asia when ATL is just 1.5 hours away or a stop on the west coast.
 
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:10 am

winginit wrote:
Let's be honest - if MIA-Asia wasn't launched when the economy was roaring and fuel was dirt cheap in 2016 and 2017, it ain't gonna happen as we step closer to an economic plateau and possible recession in the coming years. The purpose of such a route has already been in question for years, and the economics aren't going to get any better with time.

As was the case a few years ago, MIA-East Asia isn't going to happen in the next couple of years at least.

Bingo. This is by far the most realistic answer regarding Miami to East Asia in this thread. As a South Floridian, nothing would thrill me more to see a JAL tsurumaru tail at Miami or Fort Lauderdale. But lets face it, with oil starting to creep back up, the economical benefits of starting such a route are starting to fade. Miami is already connected to East Asia through literally dozens of one stop connecting points around the globe. A non-stop flight at this point doesn’t make as much sense as it used to.
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B1168
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:14 am

jeffh747 wrote:
winginit wrote:
Let's be honest - if MIA-Asia wasn't launched when the economy was roaring and fuel was dirt cheap in 2016 and 2017, it ain't gonna happen as we step closer to an economic plateau and possible recession in the coming years. The purpose of such a route has already been in question for years, and the economics aren't going to get any better with time.

As was the case a few years ago, MIA-East Asia isn't going to happen in the next couple of years at least.

Bingo. This is by far the most realistic answer regarding Miami to East Asia in this thread. As a South Floridian, nothing would thrill me more to see a JAL tsurumaru tail at Miami or Fort Lauderdale. But lets face it, with oil starting to creep back up, the economical benefits of starting such a route are starting to fade. Miami is already connected to East Asia through literally dozens of one stop connecting points around the globe. A non-stop flight at this point doesn’t make as much sense as it used to.


Bro, trust me, logical people like you are what makes a good forum. Domestic forums of such in China will often end up arguing and attacking each other just because they “debate” over cities (I.e. CSX&WUH)...
Regardless, that is what sealed the coffin.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:14 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I don't think enough people are willing to pay a premium for a nonstop to Asia when ATL is just 1.5 hours away or a stop on the west coast.


And speaking of ATL, how many TPAC flights does it have even though it's the busiest airport in the world? Yep, 4 total daily flights (2x ICN, 1x NRT, 1x PVG), with the largest Korean-American population in Southern US (Hence the 2 daily ICN flight), and the PVG flight had been on and off precisely b/c even DL with its large hub can't make it work.

Yes, JL is the prime candidate, and they did have some intent to serve MIA (Mainly b/c of Lat.Am. connection), but the math is most likely not adding up for them. There are wishes that CX fly HKG-MIA also (from people in HK no less), but again, that's an even longer flight and the premium is just not there for CX to fly plane that burn fuel to carry fuel.
 
B1168
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:31 am

Agree. HKG-MIA is nearly identical in length compared to PER-LHR! The only realistic possible candidate is NRT. Seemhow JL can make it out.
P.S. can PEK/ZBAD/PVG/ICN sort the thing out? This is a question I can’t help but wonder.
 
FSDan
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:08 am

JL has to be the best option of any on the table... If a JL MIA-NRT flight on the 789 wouldn't work, I'm not sure what MIA-East Asia flight would. I remember hearing a few years back that the largest local markets from MIA to East Asia are (in no particular order) TPE, HKG, and MNL. A MIA-NRT nonstop could serve all three of those markets well on a one-stop basis, as well as taking advantage of some Japan point of sale traffic to MIA, MCO, and Latin America. That said, I wonder if JL would need to have the aircraft remain overnight at MIA in order to connect to those markets in both directions? That's already the case with some of JL's other eastern U.S. markets (BOS, one of the JFK frequencies, the upcoming 2nd ORD frequency), but lower aircraft utilization could be a downside if JL isn't able to get the fare premiums they want. I'm guessing the MIA-TPE and MIA-MNL markets aren't very premium-heavy, even if MIA-HKG has some high value traffic.

MIA's geography is definitely not helpful for this type of flight. Sure, MIA has connections to significantly more markets in Latin America than any other U.S. airport, but the largest markets (GRU, LIM, MEX, etc.) are already well covered via DFW and/or LAX. I'm guessing there aren't that many East Asians bound for HAV, BGI, PTY, VVI, etc...
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:46 am

B1168 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Its hard to believe that Oneworld fortresses like PHX and MIA still dont have a nonstop to NRT. PHX is barely getting its largest carrier in to LHR.


Phoenix? Phoenix? Come on, Phoenix is used mainly as a domestic hub fo East&West traffic... you’re supposed to fly to LAX first unless a TPAC LLC disease (like HU, but no US state can pay subsidies like Chinese do) spread out like Norwegian.

Phoenix is the 5th largest city in the country and the largest without a nonstop to anywhere on the Asian continent. Population and a big business center alone should be enough to warrant 4x weekly on a 788, which is designed to bypass hubs like LAX. I mean if buttf*ck Charleston and Indy can have flights to London and Paris respectively, why can't PHX (larger than IND and CHS combined) and MIA (gateway to Brazil and Latin America on AA wayyyyy more so than DFW or any other US airport for any other US airline) have service to NRT especially if AA and JL have an immunized JV? And this is coming from a UA/IAH/*A fanboy.
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sonicruiser
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:50 am

FSDan wrote:
I remember hearing a few years back that the largest local markets from MIA to East Asia are (in no particular order) TPE, HKG, and MNL.


In that case, TPE-MIA might not be the most ridiculous idea ever.

In any case, when you combine the most tepid big Asian airline, JAL, with the most tepid big American airline, AA, you get a recipe for absolutely nothing. No surprise that NRT-MIA is taking so long, what do you expect with the two airlines most afraid to launch new routes? I mean we are talking NASA levels of snail-like progress here.
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DGVT
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:59 am

Apart from having a lot of people, does PHX or MIA have any meaningful connection (business wise or possible VFR) to Asia? I don't really know anythibg about PHX. I know MIA is great for money laundering, but it mainly caters to LATAM.
 
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:40 am

jeffh747 wrote:
Bingo. This is by far the most realistic answer regarding Miami to East Asia in this thread. As a South Floridian, nothing would thrill me more to see a JAL tsurumaru tail at Miami or Fort Lauderdale. But lets face it, with oil starting to creep back up, the economical benefits of starting such a route are starting to fade. Miami is already connected to East Asia through literally dozens of one stop connecting points around the globe. A non-stop flight at this point doesn’t make as much sense as it used to.


Bravo to you for being realistic about your home market. Not a trait we see often from the South Florida crowd on a.net.

If MIA-East Asia didn't happen in the last few years - when we had the combination of low oil and new aircraft like the 787 making previously risky routes viable - we ain't gonna see it anytime soon. AA/JL might have been a long shot 8-10 years ago, but all the new Asia flying from DFW and LAX have made it really easy to route Asia-bound traffic ex-MIA over those hubs, instead. Throw in LAX-GRU and now LAX-EZE, and now you've got easy connections for ex-Asia passengers headed the other way to South America. Combine those factors and whatever case Miami had for an alliance-driven route basically isn't there.

Miami's best hope for Asia at this point is a prestige route from one of the Chinese carriers, for whom economics are far less important.
 
JustinJack
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:08 am

jfk777 wrote:
Miami wrote:
Another quarter, another MIA to Asia thread.

Over a year ago, it was said that MIA would have flights to Asia within 2 years. But so far, little to no progress has been made.

Chris Mangos, director of marketing at MIA, had this to say:
“[With] China, things have gotten a little more difficult,” he said. “There are terms meme for her of our [bilateral agreement] the US is claiming that China is not adhering to, and it has brought the two countries to an impasse. Until [those] accusations are straightened out, it’s highly doubtful we’re going to see any additional service into the United States by carriers.”


MIA continues to push for Taiwan flights (more in the article):
“China firmly controls the number of cities and people that travel through the Taiwan hub,” Mr. Mangos said.


What MIA is really hopeful for is a nonstop flight to Japan. Mr. Mangos is planning a meeting with both ANA and JAL next month and hoping to get some sort of commitment.
“My best guess – and we’re hoping to sit down with them in January, if all goes well – is we’ll probably get a commitment from them [the] second or third quarter of 2019 [for] service a year later – maybe [halfway] or two-quarters through 2020,” he said. “It would be a good catch for us.”


https://www.miamitodaynews.com/2018/12/ ... -in-works/


- Miami


The article mentions more then 17 hours from MIA to TPE is too long for a largely leisure sector. Tokyo being about 14 hours is much more viable with a bigger variety of planes, few planes can do 17 hours. Its the Japanese airlines are very conservative, a One World airline would be the obvious choice. JAL & AA seem to have net to no interest it it, AA is using a 787 from DFW to Anchorage, is that the best use for that airplane ? AA have some courage and bring Tokyo to MIA, please, with all the 777 AA uses in Miami one could fly to Japan or better yet a 787-9 on say Miami-NRT-LAX-NRT-MIA.


The bureau plans to use AirDNA, an independent website that scrapes Airbnb's listings, to track the performance of short-term rentals in the areas of Miami-Dade County where they operate legally. According to bureau analysis, Airbnb is not negatively impacting hotel performance, said Rolando Aedo, the GMCVB's chief operating officer, though the industry continues to grow.

"Airbnb is such a significant player, so we need to do a thorough job of tracking [its] performance," he said in an interview.
 
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:28 am

TWA772LR wrote:
Phoenix is the 5th largest city in the country and the largest without a nonstop to anywhere on the Asian continent.

So many things with this.

1) You've been here long enough to know that airlines don't give squirt of runny dog-crap about "XXX largest city" anything, seeing as city-proper means nothing in terms of the demographics of who/where uses the airport.

2) Speaking of demographics, PHX is a primarily elderly Caucasian and Hispanic locale. There's hardly any Asians (people or businesses) based there, so why is it "surprising" that it lacks a nonstop to Asia... especially when *THE* Asian powerhouse gateway (at which AA is the largest single carrier) is only an hour by air away?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:11 am

LAX772LR wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Phoenix is the 5th largest city in the country and the largest without a nonstop to anywhere on the Asian continent.

So many things with this.

1) You've been here long enough to know that airlines don't give squirt of runny dog-crap about "XXX largest city" anything, seeing as city-proper means nothing in terms of the demographics of who/where uses the airport.

2) Speaking of demographics, PHX is a primarily elderly Caucasian and Hispanic locale. There's hardly any Asians (people or businesses) based there, so why is it "surprising" that it lacks a nonstop to Asia... especially when *THE* Asian powerhouse gateway (at which AA is the largest single carrier) is only an hour by air away?

Its not like we're talking about the 5th biggest city in China or Russia or India. We're talking about the 5th largest city in the richest country on Earth. I know you dont give a shit about what I have to say, but I've called IAH-SYD and ET flying to IAH (which theyve secured traffic rights) and skme other things. Coincidences, possibly. But ecen a broken clock is right twice a day and it's not like im one of the people saying an hourly DTW-Harare shuttle on PA A380s is going to work.
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jasoncrh
Posts: 778
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:21 pm

Charleston got a flight to London because wealthy English people go vacation there. Indianapolis got a Paris flight because local business leaders decided to subsidize one. What connections does Phoenix have to Asia? It’s a big city sure but what business links exactly does it have to Asia? How big is the ethnic Asian population in the Phoenix area that could also help a flight? Sorry- if it hadn’t happened during the frothy recent economic times, not gonna happen. In Phoenix it Miami.


quote="TWA772LR"]
B1168 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Its hard to believe that Oneworld fortresses like PHX and MIA still dont have a nonstop to NRT. PHX is barely getting its largest carrier in to LHR.


Phoenix? Phoenix? Come on, Phoenix is used mainly as a domestic hub fo East&West traffic... you’re supposed to fly to LAX first unless a TPAC LLC disease (like HU, but no US state can pay subsidies like Chinese do) spread out like Norwegian.

Phoenix is the 5th largest city in the country and the largest without a nonstop to anywhere on the Asian continent. Population and a big business center alone should be enough to warrant 4x weekly on a 788, which is designed to bypass hubs like LAX. I mean if buttf*ck Charleston and Indy can have flights to London and Paris respectively, why can't PHX (larger than IND and CHS combined) and MIA (gateway to Brazil and Latin America on AA wayyyyy more so than DFW or any other US airport for any other US airline) have service to NRT especially if AA and JL have an immunized JV? And this is coming from a UA/IAH/*A fanboy.[/quote]
 
B752OS
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:28 pm

Can a 788 or 789 fly NRT/HND-MIA-NRT/HND non-stop? Can it do so without too much of a payload restriction?

This is nothing more than an airport director doing their job trying to attract new service and a news outlet making it seem like flights are progressing even when the airport director himself is saying at best, a non-stop flight is still almost 2 years away.
 
RvA
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:31 pm

In terms of metropolitan areas doesn't Phoenix fall out of the top 10? I think when looking at airports and their catchment areas it may make more sense to look at that measure than city proper anyway.
As for Phoenix, having 2 daily flights to LHR you'd think that's probably already enough to get one stop flights into EMEA and western Asia and you can one stop connect via DFW/LAX/SFO/SEA when going westbound. Not sure why it would be an obvious thing for PHX to have more longhaul flights than it does already.
 
B1168
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:33 pm

B752OS wrote:
Can a 788 or 789 fly NRT/HND-MIA-NRT/HND non-stop? Can it do so without too much of a payload restriction?

This is nothing more than an airport director doing their job trying to attract new service and a news outlet making it seem like flights are progressing even when the airport director himself is saying at best, a non-stop flight is still almost 2 years away.


If you’re talking about the earliest 788, yes, minor restrictions. If 789, they are just fine, but you don’t want an empty cabin.
 
RvA
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:33 pm

And as for Miami, with all the connections possible I'm not sure we'll see any Asian flights there any time soon. I cannot see how the economics would make sense. But would love to be proven wrong.
 
B1168
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:55 pm

RvA wrote:
In terms of metropolitan areas doesn't Phoenix fall out of the top 10? I think when looking at airports and their catchment areas it may make more sense to look at that measure than city proper anyway.
As for Phoenix, having 2 daily flights to LHR you'd think that's probably already enough to get one stop flights into EMEA and western Asia and you can one stop connect via DFW/LAX/SFO/SEA when going westbound. Not sure why it would be an obvious thing for PHX to have more longhaul flights than it does already.


Here it is. That is Phenix’s problem. In addition, LAX’s sudden influx(14 destinations to mainland China effective 01012019) of transpacific flights have eliminated any possibility of such.
 
babastud
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:03 pm

United which has the single largest US based hub to the pacific based in SFO cannot even support a one daily MIA-SFO flight! If there where that much demand onward's to Asia a flight like this would be full. This thread makes no sense!
 
jasoncrh
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:06 pm

onward does not need an ' to add an s. just add an s. it's not posessive.

Also, United didnt time its SFO - MIA - SFO flights to connect to Asia. They literally were not built to offer connectivity to Asia - they dont hit the Asia banks. The flights were designed for the SFO and MIA local markets. So saying Miami - Asia didnt work because United's MIA - SFO flight didnt work really doesnt work.


babastud wrote:
United which has the single largest US based hub to the pacific based in SFO cannot even support a one daily MIA-SFO flight! If there where that much demand onward's to Asia a flight like this would be full. This thread makes no sense!
 
upperdeckfan
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:06 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Its hard to believe that Oneworld fortresses like PHX and MIA still dont have a nonstop to NRT. PHX is barely getting its largest carrier in to LHR.


As said by many on this thread, MIA has no advantage over DFW to connect SouthAm-Asia, even from places such as SCL or LIM connecting in MIA means backtracking.

Besides a few tiny markets in the Caribean and CCS due to the current political environment, every major LatAm market is linked non-stop to DFW and/or LAX (Pacific coast cities).

If MIA-Asia finally happens I don't see either AA/JL doing it but a chinese carrier when they get an aircraft with enough legs. My 2 cents.
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luckyone
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:14 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Phoenix is the 5th largest city in the country and the largest without a nonstop to anywhere on the Asian continent.

So many things with this.

1) You've been here long enough to know that airlines don't give squirt of runny dog-crap about "XXX largest city" anything, seeing as city-proper means nothing in terms of the demographics of who/where uses the airport.

2) Speaking of demographics, PHX is a primarily elderly Caucasian and Hispanic locale. There's hardly any Asians (people or businesses) based there, so why is it "surprising" that it lacks a nonstop to Asia... especially when *THE* Asian powerhouse gateway (at which AA is the largest single carrier) is only an hour by air away?

Its not like we're talking about the 5th biggest city in China or Russia or India. We're talking about the 5th largest city in the richest country on Earth. I know you dont give a shit about what I have to say, but I've called IAH-SYD and ET flying to IAH (which theyve secured traffic rights) and skme other things. Coincidences, possibly. But ecen a broken clock is right twice a day and it's not like im one of the people saying an hourly DTW-Harare shuttle on PA A380s is going to work.

The fifth largest geographic city limits, the 11th largest CSA, sure. But in terms of per capita income the Phoenix area is number 59. Rank it GDP per capita and it ranks even lower (well outside of the top 100 according to the last data I can find, which is admittedly Wikipedia). Bottom line, nobody is leaving money on the table by not serving Phoenix beyond what they may already.
 
IAHWorldflyer
Posts: 875
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:24 pm

MIA=TYO overflys ATL/ORD/DTW/MSP and with little detour IAD/JFK/EWR/DFW/IAH/SEA. When airlines have spare 787 frames sitting around looking for a mission, they may put one on MIA-Japan. Otherwise, MIA should be proud to have extensive European/Middle East/Caribbean and Latin American connectivity.
 
airbazar
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:41 pm

jsnww81 wrote:
If MIA-East Asia didn't happen in the last few years - when we had the combination of low oil and new aircraft like the 787 making previously risky routes viable

The problem is a few years ago the most logical airlines to start such a route (CX, JL, AA), did not yet have enough of the required aircraft in their fleets.
IMO for this route to be viable it needs a 789 or A359. I think TYO-MIA has a JL A359 written all over it.
HU was at one point one of my guesses but now that China has all but eliminated the "one airline one route" policy I see no chance of that happening. My theory was that they were starting a lot of questionable routes just so they could be the one airline on it and were willing to live with the losses in the hope that the route would eventually mature into something.
 
MAH4546
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:51 pm

It wasn't that long ago people were claiming Miami would never be connected to the Middle East. But here we are, with non-stops to Doha, Dubai and Tel Aviv, not to mention Istanbul and Casablanca.

It's the largest U.S.-Asia local market without a nonstop. Somebody will add it at some point, and it will anger a lot of people here, but so be it. Distance will always be this routing's enemy. Even Miami-Tokyo is a grueling 7,500 miles, and the premium traffic is going to the likes of HKG, TPE and SIN, not Tokyo which is just beach traffic. The likes of HKG and SIN just aren't viable with current aircraft. Although Cathay Pacific has made it clear numerous times it would love to fly to Miami non-stop with the right aircraft.

HKG would probably be the best market for Miami, distance ignored. The route is very premium heavy, the local market is decent and it's easy to connect to the largest, but junk yield, market, Manila.

Also oil prices are in record free fall. Do people just not read the news?
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jasoncrh
Posts: 778
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:12 pm

When did Miami get a flight to Dubai? Has Emirates announced something? Huh?

casablanca is in Africa.

MAH4546 wrote:
It wasn't that long ago people were claiming Miami would never be connected to the Middle East. But here we are, with non-stops to Doha, Dubai and Tel Aviv, not to mention Istanbul and Casablanca.

It's the largest U.S.-Asia local market without a nonstop. Somebody will add it at some point, and it will anger a lot of people here, but so be it. Distance will always be this routing's enemy. Even Miami-Tokyo is a grueling 7,500 miles, and the premium traffic is going to the likes of HKG, TPE and SIN, not Tokyo which is just beach traffic. The likes of HKG and SIN just aren't viable with current aircraft. Although Cathay Pacific has made it clear numerous times it would love to fly to Miami non-stop with the right aircraft.

HKG would probably be the best market for Miami, distance ignored. The route is very premium heavy, the local market is decent and it's easy to connect to the largest, but junk yield, market, Manila.

Also oil prices are in record free fall. Do people just not read the news?
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:20 pm

airbazar wrote:
HU was at one point one of my guesses but now that China has all but eliminated the "one airline one route" policy I see no chance of that happening. My theory was that they were starting a lot of questionable routes just so they could be the one airline on it and were willing to live with the losses in the hope that the route would eventually mature into something.

adamh8297 wrote:
This thread wouldn't exist if US-PRC was openskies. I think one of the Chinese Carriers, especially HU, would have bit on MIA-PEK if frequencies were available.


Umm...not like HU really have money right now. Plus the trend is (random 2nd/3rd tier Chinese cities)-LAX anyway.

MAH4546 wrote:
Although Cathay Pacific has made it clear numerous times it would love to fly to Miami non-stop with the right aircraft.

"Right aircraft" is the problem. There's simply nothing on the horizon that fits that criteria (I mean, A359? That's about the only thing that CX is getting right now. After that it'll be 777-9X, which is simply too big of a plane, at least initially).

MAH4546 wrote:
HKG would probably be the best market for Miami, distance ignored. The route is very premium heavy, the local market is decent and it's easy to connect to the largest, but junk yield, market, Manila.


And I'm not even sure how much more "premium" HKG-MIA is compare to TYO-MIA. And not all beach traffic are low yield anyway (Or else you would not see both JL/NH dump that much money into Hawaii flights), especially since MIA is anything but a cheap beach destination.

BTW MNL connects to TYO just as good also, although, yes, it's junk yield.

But ultimately, this sums it up:
MAH4546 wrote:
Distance will always be this routing's enemy.


MIA is simply way too way south and east.

EDIT:
jasoncrh wrote:
When did Miami get a flight to Dubai? Has Emirates announced something? Huh?

casablanca is in Africa.


Ok, it's DXB-FLL, same market ultimately (Southern Florida).

As for CMN - the better term is probably "MENA (Middle East + Northern Africa)". But now that RAM joined OW, the route is even less surprising.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3620
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:34 pm

YouGeeElWhy wrote:
Not to be pedantic, but MIA already has flights to Asia via DOH and TLV.

Sooner787 wrote:
JAL would be a natural with their Oneworld membership.

They also have 788's , which would be perfect plane to start such service.

I assume an loaded 788 could do MIA-NRT nonstop :)
Not sure that the 787 has the legs. That being said you would think if it does not happen for the 2020 Olympics then it will not happen. Japan is the best bet for EAST Asia to MIA.


If the 789 can so SFO-SIN then yeas NRT-MIA is a much shorter flight
 
rbavfan
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:02 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Miami wrote:
Another quarter, another MIA to Asia thread.

Over a year ago, it was said that MIA would have flights to Asia within 2 years. But so far, little to no progress has been made.

Chris Mangos, director of marketing at MIA, had this to say:
“[With] China, things have gotten a little more difficult,” he said. “There are terms of our [bilateral agreement] the US is claiming that China is not adhering to, and it has brought the two countries to an impasse. Until [those] accusations are straightened out, it’s highly doubtful we’re going to see any additional service into the United States by carriers.”


MIA continues to push for Taiwan flights (more in the article):
“China firmly controls the number of cities and people that travel through the Taiwan hub,” Mr. Mangos said.


What MIA is really hopeful for is a nonstop flight to Japan. Mr. Mangos is planning a meeting with both ANA and JAL next month and hoping to get some sort of commitment.
“My best guess – and we’re hoping to sit down with them in January, if all goes well – is we’ll probably get a commitment from them [the] second or third quarter of 2019 [for] service a year later – maybe [halfway] or two-quarters through 2020,” he said. “It would be a good catch for us.”


https://www.miamitodaynews.com/2018/12/ ... -in-works/


- Miami


The article mentions more then 17 hours from MIA to TPE is too long for a largely leisure sector. Tokyo being about 14 hours is much more viable with a bigger variety of planes, few planes can do 17 hours. Its the Japanese airlines are very conservative, a One World airline would be the obvious choice. JAL & AA seem to have net to no interest it it, AA is using a 787 from DFW to Anchorage, is that the best use for that airplane ? AA have some courage and bring Tokyo to MIA, please, with all the 777 AA uses in Miami one could fly to Japan or better yet a 787-9 on say Miami-NRT-LAX-NRT-MIA.


If AA is doing DFW-ANC on a regular schedule for winter then they must have the capacity need in pass or cargo to support it. Also based on winds it would have to be NRT-MIA-LAX-NRT. the other direction would be into the wind on the MIA-NRT segment and loose passengers or cargo to meet fuel requirements.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3620
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:16 pm

RemoFlyer wrote:
jsnww81 wrote:
B1168 wrote:
It is pretty hard to see its purpose... Miami isn’t such a premium heavy city


Oh boy, now you've done it. That statement is as close to a.net sacrilege as you can come. The refrain we always hear is that Miami oozes premium demand to every market on earth, all year long, with absolutely no stimulation necessary.

I've been reading about how Miami-Asia flights are "just around the corner" for the entire 17 years I've been a member on this site.


One of our esteemed Miami boosters on this site (and there are a few) had a flyertalk post from 10-15(?) years back promising a 1-stop Miami to East Asia flight within a year. Every subsequent year it has probably always been "within a year", that way one day they will be correct!


If every year the same person promisses "within a year" and it happens 12 years down the road. They will never be correct as it was repeated for years.
 
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OA940
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:35 pm

TYO would be the best chance they have. It's the closest to MIA (doable with a 788 with a standard payload) and JAL/AA would do wonders together. Plus AA's Latin American connections would attract even more passengers. I could see it happening in the next few years tbh.
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