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MIflyer12
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:42 pm

MAH4546 wrote:

Also oil prices are in record free fall. Do people just not read the news?


One might think that every sensible carrier's fuel price memory lasts longer than a week.
 
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jsnww81
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:01 pm

If I'm AA, JL, CX or any other non-subsidized, non-mainland-China carrier, what incentive is there for me to tie up 2-3 airframes on a very long thin route when I can just as effectively route that traffic directly over two key strategic hubs (DFW and LAX)? It's the same reason AA doesn't fly ORD to South America. There's some demand there, sure, but it be can routed easily over a hub that's essentially right on the way. That's the whole premise of having multiple hubs - being able to take advantage of geography and flow to maximize revenue.

The fare premium on MIA-East Asia would need to be massive to make it lucrative enough for an airline to take the risk. Not a great proposition when two-thirds of the plane would be filled with cruise line staff connecting onward to Manila. Whatever leftover high-paying traffic might be heading to HKG or TPE or wherever would just be traffic skimmed off the top of strategically-more-important flights from DFW and LAX, and I doubt AA/JL would be willing to undermine the performance of those routes.
 
727LOVER
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:13 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
It wasn't that long ago people were claiming Miami would never be connected to the Middle East. But here we are, with non-stops to Doha, Dubai and Tel Aviv


OW, Orlando got it first, despite a large market-no route for almost 10 years!

MAH4546 wrote:
It's the largest U.S.-Asia local market without a nonstop. Somebody will add it at some point, and it will anger a lot of people here, but so be it.


MIAMI GETTING A NONSTOP TO FAR EAST ??!?!??!!
Image
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
727LOVER
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:13 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
It wasn't that long ago people were claiming Miami would never be connected to the Middle East. But here we are, with non-stops to Doha, Dubai and Tel Aviv


OW, Orlando got it first, despite a large market-no route for almost 10 years!

MAH4546 wrote:
It's the largest U.S.-Asia local market without a nonstop. Somebody will add it at some point, and it will anger a lot of people here, but so be it.


MIAMI GETTING A NONSTOP TO FAR EAST ??!?!??!!
Image
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
chonetsao
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:53 pm

Does CX have the traffic right to do a HKG KIX MIA or HKG NRT MIA run?
 
Aeroflot001
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:18 pm

MIA-NRT AA, 789, that's the dream.
 
jbpdx
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:46 pm

I’d like to see someone put PDX-MIA/FLL in the works.
^
 
MAH4546
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:53 pm

727LOVER wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
It wasn't that long ago people were claiming Miami would never be connected to the Middle East. But here we are, with non-stops to Doha, Dubai and Tel Aviv


OW, Orlando got it first, despite a large market-no route for almost 10 years!


Miami got the Middle East first (QR/Doha), but yes, Orlando got Dubai first.
a.
 
MAH4546
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:59 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:

And I'm not even sure how much more "premium" HKG-MIA is compare to TYO-MIA. And not all beach traffic are low yield anyway (Or else you would not see both JL/NH dump that much money into Hawaii flights), especially since MIA is anything but a cheap beach destination.



Significantly more premium. Average fare in MIA-HKG market is $1,500+ one-way. Miami-Tokyo is sub-$800. Miami-Taipei and Miami-Singapore also have very high average fares, both Miami and Hong Kong play very similar roles as financial hubs for their regions, and a lot of premium traffic flows between them. Plus Swire Group has huge Miami operations.

Miami-Japan tourist traffic is usually tied with people who make it a side trip to an Orlando vacation (Japanese prefer Central Florida and its theme parks to Miami). Don't think many go out of the way to make Miami the primary purpose of their vacation.

jasoncrh wrote:
When did Miami get a flight to Dubai? Has Emirates announced something? Huh?

casablanca is in Africa.
[/quote]

I know where Casablanca is, thanks, that's why I didn't pair it up with Dubai/Doha/Tel Aviv.

Emirates has been flying Dubai-Fort Lauderdale for about two years now.
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LAXdude1023
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:11 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
It wasn't that long ago people were claiming Miami would never be connected to the Middle East. But here we are, with non-stops to Doha, Dubai and Tel Aviv, not to mention Istanbul and Casablanca.

It's the largest U.S.-Asia local market without a nonstop. Somebody will add it at some point, and it will anger a lot of people here, but so be it. Distance will always be this routing's enemy. Even Miami-Tokyo is a grueling 7,500 miles, and the premium traffic is going to the likes of HKG, TPE and SIN, not Tokyo which is just beach traffic. The likes of HKG and SIN just aren't viable with current aircraft. Although Cathay Pacific has made it clear numerous times it would love to fly to Miami non-stop with the right aircraft.

HKG would probably be the best market for Miami, distance ignored. The route is very premium heavy, the local market is decent and it's easy to connect to the largest, but junk yield, market, Manila.

Also oil prices are in record free fall. Do people just not read the news?


Mark youve been on here long enough to know that people have been crying wolf on a MIA-Asia route for over a decade at least. Meanwhile weve seen all kinds of long and thin routes launched in the interim.

Not saying its never going to happen, but talk of it happening is meaningless.
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MAH4546
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:17 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
It wasn't that long ago people were claiming Miami would never be connected to the Middle East. But here we are, with non-stops to Doha, Dubai and Tel Aviv, not to mention Istanbul and Casablanca.

It's the largest U.S.-Asia local market without a nonstop. Somebody will add it at some point, and it will anger a lot of people here, but so be it. Distance will always be this routing's enemy. Even Miami-Tokyo is a grueling 7,500 miles, and the premium traffic is going to the likes of HKG, TPE and SIN, not Tokyo which is just beach traffic. The likes of HKG and SIN just aren't viable with current aircraft. Although Cathay Pacific has made it clear numerous times it would love to fly to Miami non-stop with the right aircraft.

HKG would probably be the best market for Miami, distance ignored. The route is very premium heavy, the local market is decent and it's easy to connect to the largest, but junk yield, market, Manila.

Also oil prices are in record free fall. Do people just not read the news?


Mark youve been on here long enough to know that people have been crying wolf on a MIA-Asia route for over a decade at least. Meanwhile weve seen all kinds of long and thin routes launched in the interim.

Not saying its never going to happen, but talk of it happening is meaningless.


I agree. Plenty of long and thin routes have been launched, including dozens upon dozens from Miami. Somebody will launch it eventually, just like many other markets like Philadelphia and Phoenix will see their Asia routes launched.
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airbazar
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:34 pm

jsnww81 wrote:
If I'm AA, JL, CX or any other non-subsidized, non-mainland-China carrier, what incentive is there for me to tie up 2-3 airframes on a very long thin route when I can just as effectively route that traffic directly over two key strategic hubs (DFW and LAX)?

Easy answer, IMO:
1) Just a little over 5 years ago any BOS-East Asia route too was a long and thin route and the same exact comments were being made about any potential routes. Look at it today.
2) Right now there are a dozen-plus different one-stop routes which means that a lot of passengers don't necessarily fly with AA, JL, CX. A non-stop would pretty much guarantee that all premium traffic would use that route, plus the market stimulation that comes with it.
3) Connecting in TYO is a heck of a lot better than connecting in LAX or DFW :)
4) mia-nrt-sin sure beats mia-dfw-hkg-sin, and is shorter than mia-lhr-sin.
 
B1168
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:51 pm

airbazar wrote:
jsnww81 wrote:
If I'm AA, JL, CX or any other non-subsidized, non-mainland-China carrier, what incentive is there for me to tie up 2-3 airframes on a very long thin route when I can just as effectively route that traffic directly over two key strategic hubs (DFW and LAX)?

Easy answer, IMO:
1) Just a little over 5 years ago any BOS-East Asia route too was a long and thin route and the same exact comments were being made about any potential routes. Look at it today.
2) Right now there are a dozen-plus different one-stop routes which means that a lot of passengers don't necessarily fly with AA, JL, CX. A non-stop would pretty much guarantee that all premium traffic would use that route, plus the market stimulation that comes with it.
3) Connecting in TYO is a heck of a lot better than connecting in LAX or DFW :)
4) mia-nrt-sin sure beats mia-dfw-hkg-sin, and is shorter than mia-lhr-sin.


Bro, you can do it like MIA-LAX/SFO-SIN.
Also, BOS is made possible mostly by 787, and the answer of “impossible” was drawn with 777/330 only. There are no secessions of 787, posing longer range and less seats with satisfactory efficiency.
 
jasoncrh
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:51 pm

Boston's local market demand to all of Asia is substantially larger than Miami's. That's the base necessity to make such a long thin route work. Miami simply doesnt have it, despite all the glorious Swire ties some people on here like to talk about.

airbazar wrote:
jsnww81 wrote:
If I'm AA, JL, CX or any other non-subsidized, non-mainland-China carrier, what incentive is there for me to tie up 2-3 airframes on a very long thin route when I can just as effectively route that traffic directly over two key strategic hubs (DFW and LAX)?

Easy answer, IMO:
1) Just a little over 5 years ago any BOS-East Asia route too was a long and thin route and the same exact comments were being made about any potential routes. Look at it today.
2) Right now there are a dozen-plus different one-stop routes which means that a lot of passengers don't necessarily fly with AA, JL, CX. A non-stop would pretty much guarantee that all premium traffic would use that route, plus the market stimulation that comes with it.
3) Connecting in TYO is a heck of a lot better than connecting in LAX or DFW :)
4) mia-nrt-sin sure beats mia-dfw-hkg-sin, and is shorter than mia-lhr-sin.
 
Fastphilly
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:32 pm

Latin/South America to Asia cultural and business ties have been historically weak. Sao Paulo is much higher on the global pecking order than Miami and GRU can only support one flight to PEK and that’s with a stopover in MAD. That’s the only flight to Asia from the entire South American continent. MIA is heavily skewed demographicly with Latin America, so I just have a hard time seeing any carrier operate such an expensive endeavor on this ULH route without a healthy premium O&D base. When JL launched DFW in the not so distant past it further diminishes MIA chance of a JL Tokyo flight.
 
dfwjim1
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:08 pm

jsnww81 wrote:
If I'm AA, JL, CX or any other non-subsidized, non-mainland-China carrier, what incentive is there for me to tie up 2-3 airframes on a very long thin route when I can just as effectively route that traffic directly over two key strategic hubs (DFW and LAX)? It's the same reason AA doesn't fly ORD to South America. There's some demand there, sure, but it be can routed easily over a hub that's essentially right on the way. That's the whole premise of having multiple hubs - being able to take advantage of geography and flow to maximize revenue.

The fare premium on MIA-East Asia would need to be massive to make it lucrative enough for an airline to take the risk. Not a great proposition when two-thirds of the plane would be filled with cruise line staff connecting onward to Manila. Whatever leftover high-paying traffic might be heading to HKG or TPE or wherever would just be traffic skimmed off the top of strategically-more-important flights from DFW and LAX, and I doubt AA/JL would be willing to undermine the performance of those routes.


Yes, you are exactly right! In addition to East Asian One World travelers connecting in DFW and LAX they can (I assume) also connect in SFO, ORD and JFK for onward flights to MIA. The argument for MIA getting a nonstop to Asia is akin to the one that pops up on Airliners.net that SFO will be getting a nonstop flight to Sao Paulo and/or Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. It is most likely not going to happen as there are just too many hubs on the way...ie LAX, DFW, IAH, MIA, MEX and even Panama City on COPA.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:10 am

TWA772LR wrote:
We're talking about the 5th largest city in the richest country on Earth.

But still a city ...which ...also ...doesn't ....generate ...significant ....demand ...to Asia.

What part of that isn't registering?

Country of origin + size of city, are meaningless, if that size doesn't include demographics favorable to such a service.
I mean, MIA and PHL have even larger catchments that serve a richer populace, but they too don't have nonstops to east Asia.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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c933103
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:25 am

OA412 wrote:
It seems to me that MIA-TPE would be a very long, thin route, but since it would be either BR or CI starting that route, maybe they'd go for it. It certainly wouldn't be AA starting that route. I'd say MIA-NRT is the best bet right now.

But why would, let say CI, run the route, when they can't even run NYC profitably because of the stage length
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clrd4t8koff
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:47 am

MAH4546 wrote:
727LOVER wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
It wasn't that long ago people were claiming Miami would never be connected to the Middle East. But here we are, with non-stops to Doha, Dubai and Tel Aviv


OW, Orlando got it first, despite a large market-no route for almost 10 years!


Miami got the Middle East first (QR/Doha), but yes, Orlando got Dubai first.


Orlando got the Middle East first with service from JED & RUH on SV back in the 90s.
 
airbazar
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:35 pm

B1168 wrote:
Bro, you can do it like MIA-LAX/SFO-SIN.


On UA/SQ with a crappy domestic F seat at best and thus not on AA/CX/JL? You just confirmed point #2.
It gets even worse when you realize that UA doesn't even fly MIA-LAX, and that their offering to SFO is only 1x daily.
Of course there's always the interlining possibility but it's also not ideal.

B1168 wrote:
Also, BOS is made possible mostly by 787, and the answer of “impossible” was drawn with 777/330 only.

And yet CX if flying it with a 77W and getting 90% LF, which even 5 years ago was "impossible". And they're hardly the only airline using a 777/A330 on routes that used to be "impossible" 5 years ago: LY, EK, TK.

The 789 has all the range it needs to fly TYO-MIA.
A CX A359 might be able to fly MIA-HKG. It's 500nm longer than SFO-SIN but it's a polar route which doesn't have to deal with the strong TPAC head winds. I suspect that the time aloft is pretty similar. It's about the same as PER-LHR. In the case of CX I don't think the problem is so much the distance as much as air traffic over China. A route like MIA-HKG would be at the absolute edge of the aircraft's range and China has the annoying bad habit of shutting down air space without warning.

jasoncrh wrote:
Boston's local market demand to all of Asia is substantially larger than Miami's.

Today it is but BOS's local market to Asia wasn't always what it is today. There was a lot of stimulation by all the new offerings to Asia.
Just like in the case of BOS, It will only take one airline to start flying the route for others to follow. Obviously I think the distance will limit service but a city and economy like Miami must be generating a good amount of traffic to Asia.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:12 pm

airbazar wrote:
B1168 wrote:


Today it is but BOS's local market to Asia wasn't always what it is today. There was a lot of stimulation by all the new offerings to Asia.
Just like in the case of BOS, It will only take one airline to start flying the route for others to follow. Obviously I think the distance will limit service but a city and economy like Miami must be generating a good amount of traffic to Asia.


MIA-Asia was never at any point in history anywhere near the size of BOS-Asia.
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B752OS
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:24 pm

B1168 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
jsnww81 wrote:
If I'm AA, JL, CX or any other non-subsidized, non-mainland-China carrier, what incentive is there for me to tie up 2-3 airframes on a very long thin route when I can just as effectively route that traffic directly over two key strategic hubs (DFW and LAX)?


Bro, you can do it like MIA-LAX/SFO-SIN.
Also, BOS is made possible mostly by 787, and the answer of “impossible” was drawn with 777/330 only. There are no secessions of 787, posing longer range and less seats with satisfactory efficiency.


Boeing's family of state of the art, long range planes have made numerous routes possible. It's been a great thing seeing so many airlines using Boeing's planes to open up new markets. Boston needed the 787 to allow carriers to see the potential and fly between Boston and Asia profitably. Now that the market has grown and matured a bit (JAL starting NRT-BOS almost 7 years ago), we've see a carrier like CX start HKG-BOS with a 77W and has seemingly had good results.


What about the possibility of say CX starting HKG-NRT-MIA? Or even HKG-YVR-MIA?
 
airbazar
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:39 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
B1168 wrote:


Today it is but BOS's local market to Asia wasn't always what it is today. There was a lot of stimulation by all the new offerings to Asia.
Just like in the case of BOS, It will only take one airline to start flying the route for others to follow. Obviously I think the distance will limit service but a city and economy like Miami must be generating a good amount of traffic to Asia.


MIA-Asia was never at any point in history anywhere near the size of BOS-Asia.

I never said that. I simply stated that the huge numbers we have today were not always like that.
I have no idea what the numbers from each city were 5+ years ago but you can go back on these forums and read the comments regarding BOS-Asia and they are almost identical word for word to the comments we see regarding MIA-Asia.
Here's a better question: Was the size of BOS-Asia 5 years ago larger than MIA-Asia today? I think that would be interesting to know.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:46 pm

airbazar wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
airbazar wrote:


MIA-Asia was never at any point in history anywhere near the size of BOS-Asia.

I never said that. I simply stated that the huge numbers we have today were not always like that.
I have no idea what the numbers from each city were 5+ years ago but you can go back on these forums and read the comments regarding BOS-Asia and they are almost identical word for word to the comments we see regarding MIA-Asia.
Here's a better question: Was the size of BOS-Asia 5 years ago larger than MIA-Asia today? I think that would be interesting to know.


In 2012, BOS-Asia was between 850-900 PDEW. MIA-Asia is about 450 PDEW. Those numbers include India and Australia/New Zealand.

What people say on a.net about one market doesnt make it like another market. BOS-Asia and MIA-Asia are not comparable at all. They never were and still are not.
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winginit
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:57 pm

I feel like we're just running around in circles at this point. Here's a concrete question:

Is there anyone who thinks there is a very good (we'll say more than 80% chance) chance that nonstop service between MIA and the Far East (HKG, TYO, etc) is launched in the next two years?
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:14 pm

airbazar wrote:
I have no idea what the numbers from each city were 5+ years ago but you can go back on these forums and read the comments regarding BOS-Asia and they are almost identical word for word to the comments we see regarding MIA-Asia.


Doing random search on this, yes, there were certainly doubters, 13 years ago, that is. And most comments referred to the fact that BOS had no space (back then) rather than there are no demands (Terminal E, the current int'l terminal, didn't finish its expansion until 2008). Other doubters think that such student-only flights (i.e. Harvard and MIT) are not sustainable. Then there's the fact that East Asian (especially Chinese) population in Boston probably grew quite a bit from 13 years ago also.

Oh, and threads 17 years ago already talk about MIA-NRT. 17 years later? Still no MIA-NRT.
 
RemoFlyer
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:41 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
airbazar wrote:
I have no idea what the numbers from each city were 5+ years ago but you can go back on these forums and read the comments regarding BOS-Asia and they are almost identical word for word to the comments we see regarding MIA-Asia.


Doing random search on this, yes, there were certainly doubters, 13 years ago, that is. And most comments referred to the fact that BOS had no space (back then) rather than there are no demands (Terminal E, the current int'l terminal, didn't finish its expansion until 2008). Other doubters think that such student-only flights (i.e. Harvard and MIT) are not sustainable. Then there's the fact that East Asian (especially Chinese) population in Boston probably grew quite a bit from 13 years ago also.

Oh, and threads 17 years ago already talk about MIA-NRT. 17 years later? Still no MIA-NRT.


LOL - get with the program. It is happening soon, didnt you hear!!! Right around the corner :lol:

Sometimes I wonder about the mental health of all these MIA boosters, given their comments.
 
bzcat
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:45 pm

FSDan wrote:
I remember hearing a few years back that the largest local markets from MIA to East Asia are (in no particular order) TPE, HKG, and MNL. A MIA-NRT nonstop could serve all three of those markets well on a one-stop basis, as well as taking advantage of some Japan point of sale traffic to MIA, MCO, and Latin America.


Someone did post the DOT stats in another thread from a while ago and MNL leads all East Asia traffic ex-MIA follow by TPE and HKG.

MNL is split between VFR that are likely low yield and low-paid cruise ship or container ship contract employees that fly coach so yield maybe somewhat problematic.

I think if Taiwanese carriers have 5th freedom ex-Canada, they might give one-stop TPE-YYC-MIA or TPE-YVR-MIA a shot. But they don't have 5th freedom. Non-stop flight will likely require unique configuration like SQ's special A350 sub-fleet for ULH and neither BR nor CI is interested enough to do that.

Hong Kong carriers have 5th freedom ex-Canada so CX is a candidate. But I think they are using those rights on the YVR-JFK flight. Probably make more money there.

Japan is closer but there is a question on what time the MIA-NRT flight will have to depart to hook up with transit flights going to Southeast Asia and vice versa.

For sure, this is not an easy nut to crack.
 
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Geminijets101
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:20 am

Ok, Far East routes MAY not happen any time soon, but Jeez a lot of you are treating Miami like it’s a small market for Asia. If you hate “Miami Boosters” so much, why do you still come to Miami Asia threads?
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jfk777
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:30 am

Taipei and Hong Kong sound great but those extra two or three hours make a difference when having to fly all the way from MIA. Tokyo is really the only viable Asian city currently from MIA. Many comparisons have been made to Boston, flying times from from there are very similar to Toronto and JFK. JAL's 787-9 or soon to arrive A350-900 would look great at MIA though. ITs Tokyo Tokyo or Tokyo.
 
airbazar
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:43 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

MIA-Asia was never at any point in history anywhere near the size of BOS-Asia.

I never said that. I simply stated that the huge numbers we have today were not always like that.
I have no idea what the numbers from each city were 5+ years ago but you can go back on these forums and read the comments regarding BOS-Asia and they are almost identical word for word to the comments we see regarding MIA-Asia.
Here's a better question: Was the size of BOS-Asia 5 years ago larger than MIA-Asia today? I think that would be interesting to know.


In 2012, BOS-Asia was between 850-900 PDEW. MIA-Asia is about 450 PDEW. Those numbers include India and Australia/New Zealand.

What people say on a.net about one market doesnt make it like another market. BOS-Asia and MIA-Asia are not comparable at all. They never were and still are not.

I know that and I also know that those numbers mean nothing if it includes India. We know that the BOS-India market was large long before EK/QR started service to BOS. I also know that when JL started NRT-BOS almost 6 years ago BOS-TYO was the largest East Asia market from BOS at 70,000 annual passengers. I'm curious how that compares to MIA-TYO or MIA-HKG today?

zakuivcustom wrote:
Doing random search on this, yes, there were certainly doubters, 13 years ago, that is. And most comments referred to the fact that BOS had no space (back then) rather than there are no demands (Terminal E, the current int'l terminal, didn't finish its expansion until 2008). Other doubters think that such student-only flights (i.e. Harvard and MIT) are not sustainable. Then there's the fact that East Asian (especially Chinese) population in Boston probably grew quite a bit from 13 years ago also.

All true but the irony is that 17 years ago BOS did have service to East Asia. KE used to fly a triangle route via JFK or IAD, to Seoul. Can't remember the exact routing anymore.

By the way, looking back it looks crazy that BOS-Asia was nearly 1000PDEW without a single non-stop connection and plenty of people still believed it couldn't be done. No surprise that MIA doesn't have it yet.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6193
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:55 pm

airbazar wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
I never said that. I simply stated that the huge numbers we have today were not always like that.
I have no idea what the numbers from each city were 5+ years ago but you can go back on these forums and read the comments regarding BOS-Asia and they are almost identical word for word to the comments we see regarding MIA-Asia.
Here's a better question: Was the size of BOS-Asia 5 years ago larger than MIA-Asia today? I think that would be interesting to know.


In 2012, BOS-Asia was between 850-900 PDEW. MIA-Asia is about 450 PDEW. Those numbers include India and Australia/New Zealand.

What people say on a.net about one market doesnt make it like another market. BOS-Asia and MIA-Asia are not comparable at all. They never were and still are not.

I know that and I also know that those numbers mean nothing if it includes India. We know that the BOS-India market was large long before EK/QR started service to BOS. I also know that when JL started NRT-BOS almost 6 years ago BOS-TYO was the largest East Asia market from BOS at 70,000 annual passengers. I'm curious how that compares to MIA-TYO or MIA-HKG today?

zakuivcustom wrote:
Doing random search on this, yes, there were certainly doubters, 13 years ago, that is. And most comments referred to the fact that BOS had no space (back then) rather than there are no demands (Terminal E, the current int'l terminal, didn't finish its expansion until 2008). Other doubters think that such student-only flights (i.e. Harvard and MIT) are not sustainable. Then there's the fact that East Asian (especially Chinese) population in Boston probably grew quite a bit from 13 years ago also.

All true but the irony is that 17 years ago BOS did have service to East Asia. KE used to fly a triangle route via JFK or IAD, to Seoul. Can't remember the exact routing anymore.

By the way, looking back it looks crazy that BOS-Asia was nearly 1000PDEW without a single non-stop connection and plenty of people still believed it couldn't be done. No surprise that MIA doesn't have it yet.


BOS-India was about 180 of that number and MIA-India was about 100 of that number. Sorry, my point still stands.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
B1168
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:15 pm

One moment, what about New Delhi?
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:02 pm

airbazar wrote:
All true but the irony is that 17 years ago BOS did have service to East Asia. KE used to fly a triangle route via JFK or IAD, to Seoul. Can't remember the exact routing anymore.


It's definitely ironic. KE were the first one in BOS, and they're only now returning.

It's ICN-BOS-IAD-ICN BTW:
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... l-network/

But either way, it's almost unfair for MIA to even be compared to BOS in the first place. BOS has a much larger VFR base to begin with, and is 1000mi shorter flight to/from East Asia. A East Asia - BOS flight also doesn't overfly many North American hubs.
 
airbazar
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:03 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
BOS-India was about 180 of that number and MIA-India was about 100 of that number. Sorry, my point still stands.

I'm not sure your point is different than mine :)
Yes BOS is a much larger market to Asia than MIA. But MIA is not zero.
My argument is that I find it hard to believe that an economy and city the size of Miami doesn't generate enough traffic to support an East Asia non-stop route.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:12 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
It's ICN-BOS-IAD-ICN BTW:

Slight correction:
SEL-BOS-IAD-SEL

The flight was from Kimpo (Gimpo) airport; not Incheon, which didn't open until right around the time BOS was dropped.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2252
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:19 pm

True, that. Pre-GMP and pre-ICN.
 
Cunard
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:27 pm

B1168 wrote:
One moment, what about New Delhi?


FYI

Although colloquially Delhi and New Delhi are used interchangeably to refer to the National Capital Territory of Delhi (NCT) these are two distinct entities with New Delhi forming a very small part of Delhi.

The National Capital Region of Delhi is a much larger entity comprising the entire NCT along with adjoining districts in neighbouring states.

Delhi is the official name used for the capital city of the Republic of India.

Those of a certain age often still refer to the Capital city of India in it's original name of New Delhi.

Unless your of a certain age or someone who doesn't grasp geography outside of the USA it's Delhi ;-)
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
aviationaware
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:50 pm

adamh8297 wrote:
This thread wouldn't exist if US-PRC was openskies. I think one of the Chinese Carriers, especially HU, would have bit on MIA-PEK if frequencies were available.


Why would you do an open skies agreement with a country you know subsidizes its carriers? That would be pretty stupid, so I am surprised Obama didn't do it. No chance until 2024, thank god.
 
Cunard
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:55 pm

God (who ever he or she is and that's if your a believer) has absolutely nothing to do with it especially in regards to Aviation ;-)
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
clrd4t8koff
Posts: 1667
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:23 pm

Geminijets101 wrote:
Ok, Far East routes MAY not happen any time soon, but Jeez a lot of you are treating Miami like it’s a small market for Asia. If you hate “Miami Boosters” so much, why do you still come to Miami Asia threads?


Hate is a strong word. Nobody hates anyone. But at this point it’s become comical at how frequently these posts pop up that “MIA-East Asia is imminent”.......”MIA to TYO will be in place by year end” (I’m paraphrasing that last one, but you get the point). All JAL has to do is sneeze and a certain MIA fanboy has a new thread up that MIA will be getting flights to E Asia tomorrow. It’s been going on for years and rather absurd at this point.

And for the record - MIA to E. Asia is a small market. It’s the definition of long and thin. What more do you want - for people to lie and say it’s this huge market but nobody understands why JL, CX, PR won’t open it when they have aircraft that can fly it today?! It’s a small market. Could it be stimulated - possibly. But let’s just call a spade a spade here.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:25 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Why would you do an open skies agreement with a country you know subsidizes its carriers? That would be pretty stupid, so I am surprised Obama didn't do it. No chance until 2024, thank god.


Great, someone bringing politics into fold for no reason.

BTW, you realized that it was PRC that actually rejected open skies back in around 2006 or so, right? Yes, they probably regretted that (Back then US carriers still dominate US-China flights). Oh, and that was under W.

Doesn't matter though, not like a certain person will even have a remote chance of staying until 2024 anyway. :stirthepot:

BTW, Chinese carrier actually turn a profit, and is far from totally mismanaged carrier like AI or AZ or for that matter, numerous US carriers that only survived b/c the relatively lenient bankruptcies law (oh, and a gov't bailout) in US.

airbazar wrote:
My argument is that I find it hard to believe that an economy and city the size of Miami doesn't generate enough traffic to support an East Asia non-stop route.


It's BOTH demand and geography that's working against MIA. It's hard enough to overcome one barrier, overcoming two is, well, twice as hard.

And quite frankly, if MIA really has that much demand, you would have seen at least some one-stops from any of the Asian carriers back when those were still popular (i.e. something like NRT-JFK-MIA). Nope, not even one East Asian carriers even bother.

LAX772LR wrote:
The flight was from Kimpo (Gimpo) airport; not Incheon, which didn't open until right around the time BOS was dropped.


Oops...forgot that ICN was probably still a bunch of sand back then.
 
jfk777
Posts: 7369
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:00 pm

Korean Air is brave enough to do MIA to ICN, a 787-9 would be great. Its time some airline have some ambition to Miami from Asia, KAL flies to very other corner of the USA except Florida.
 
B1168
Posts: 507
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:26 pm

Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:17 pm

Cunard wrote:
B1168 wrote:
One moment, what about New Delhi?


FYI

Although colloquially Delhi and New Delhi are used interchangeably to refer to the National Capital Territory of Delhi (NCT) these are two distinct entities with New Delhi forming a very small part of Delhi.

The National Capital Region of Delhi is a much larger entity comprising the entire NCT along with adjoining districts in neighbouring states.

Delhi is the official name used for the capital city of the Republic of India.

Those of a certain age often still refer to the Capital city of India in it's original name of New Delhi.

Unless your of a certain age or someone who doesn't grasp geography outside of the USA it's Delhi ;-)


Appreciate it. I am going with DEL.
So, after all, is there any tourism or business communication between Delhi and Miami? If so, can they sustain 3 weekly 789, minimum?
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13278
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:51 am

jfk777 wrote:
Korean Air is brave enough to do MIA to ICN

Ya mean the airline that got beat by typically-conservative Japanese airlines into emerging markets like SAN, SJC, and (sustained) BOS?

....nothing too "brave" about them, relative to their competitors, over the last decade or so.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Cunard
Posts: 2510
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:53 am

B1168

I'm pleased to know that you accept it as Delhi ;-)

Regarding your last question the answer is probably not!
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
B1168
Posts: 507
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:26 pm

Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:10 am

[threeid][/threeid]
Cunard wrote:
B1168

I'm pleased to know that you accept it as Delhi ;-)

Regarding your last question the answer is probably not!


You’re welcome. So... that’s it. Miami... that is still a problem.
Korean Air? Doubt it. Miami is a genuine Oneworld hub, with minimal Skyteam influence. Transfer is surely complicated, in this case.
 
mikejepp
Posts: 219
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:47 pm

Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:13 am

How about a one-stop to NRT via ANC with an AA A321neo? Would allow them to serve the market and also the additional MIA-ANC and ANC-NRT markets.
 
Cunard
Posts: 2510
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:36 am

mikejepp wrote:
How about a one-stop to NRT via ANC with an AA A321neo? Would allow them to serve the market and also the additional MIA-ANC and ANC-NRT markets.


Really come on get real and be serious do you honestly think that would happen!
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
User avatar
FA9295
Posts: 1770
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:44 pm

Re: Miami to Asia still in the works

Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:47 am

mikejepp wrote:
How about a one-stop to NRT via ANC with an AA A321neo? Would allow them to serve the market and also the additional MIA-ANC and ANC-NRT markets.

Both MIA-ANC and MIA-NRT are easily transferable at DFW.

Of course, since this thread is about Miami to Asia, then a MIA-NRT flight could be realistic on an aircraft with range without having to stop at ANC.

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