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lavalampluva
Posts: 1433
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Re: MSP's regional air service partnership success

Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:21 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
rainaviation wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

To compare the corporate portfolio of MSP to SEA is quite unfair to Seattle:

https://www.businesstravelnews.com/Corp ... l-100/2018
The Seattle area is home to the major operations of 3 of the top 12 of the largest corporate travel spending companies in America

Microsoft alone, basically spends more on travel than all of those companies you mentioned combined, and that's without even including Boeing, Amazon, Starbucks, Costco, e.t.c.


I would like to see the numbers behind this... The Mayo Clinic brought in more than 1 million international patients alone last year; from 136 countries. Medtronic is the largest global medical device company. Minneapolis alone has 19 fortune 500 companies and all of Washington state only has 15. It is very fair to compare Minneapolis to Seattle.

Also, Minneapolis has a very large international population. The city has the largest concentration of Hmong peoples and Somali peoples outside of their respective countries...


1. The Mayo Clinic is in Rochester, so its unfair to include all of those visitors into the MSP numbers, definitely a lot fly through MSP but definitely not all

2. Fortune 500 companies do not all generate an equal amount in Travel Expenditures

2a. Microsoft alone spent $430 million on Air Travel in 2017, compared to 3M's $93.1 million + UnitedHealth Groups +$71 million + I'll even throw in Boston Scientific's + $50.6 million and Medtronic's $175 million, and all those companies combined still don't match Microsoft's Air Travel expenditures. This is without including Boeing's $227 million and Amazon's $200 million, plus the fact that Google, Facebook, Apple, e.t.c each have 1,000s of employees in Seattle. It really isn't even that close in terms of the Corporate Portfolio of both metros, despite Minneapolis having many Fortune 500 companies.

3. The Seattle Metro has a $356,572 million dollar GDP compared to the $260,106 million dollar GDP of Minneapolis, plus Seattle is one of the fastest growing economies in America therefore this gap will widen.

4. Washington's population is 14% immigrant compared to Minnesota which is 8%
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil. ... washington
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil. ... -minnesota

So, let's step away from comparing MSP and SEA

At least it’s not the MSP vs. DTW comparison. But yes imo this argument has run its course.

It’s a nice wish list, but I can’t see much coming from it. But 2019 is a new year. I suppose anything can happen.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
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compensateme
Posts: 3279
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Re: MSP's regional air service partnership success

Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:30 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
rainaviation wrote:

I would like to see the numbers behind this... The Mayo Clinic brought in more than 1 million international patients alone last year; from 136 countries. Medtronic is the largest global medical device company. Minneapolis alone has 19 fortune 500 companies and all of Washington state only has 15. It is very fair to compare Minneapolis to Seattle.

Also, Minneapolis has a very large international population. The city has the largest concentration of Hmong peoples and Somali peoples outside of their respective countries...


1. The Mayo Clinic is in Rochester, so its unfair to include all of those visitors into the MSP numbers, definitely a lot fly through MSP but definitely not all

2. Fortune 500 companies do not all generate an equal amount in Travel Expenditures

2a. Microsoft alone spent $430 million on Air Travel in 2017, compared to 3M's $93.1 million + UnitedHealth Groups +$71 million + I'll even throw in Boston Scientific's + $50.6 million and Medtronic's $175 million, and all those companies combined still don't match Microsoft's Air Travel expenditures. This is without including Boeing's $227 million and Amazon's $200 million, plus the fact that Google, Facebook, Apple, e.t.c each have 1,000s of employees in Seattle. It really isn't even that close in terms of the Corporate Portfolio of both metros, despite Minneapolis having many Fortune 500 companies.

3. The Seattle Metro has a $356,572 million dollar GDP compared to the $260,106 million dollar GDP of Minneapolis, plus Seattle is one of the fastest growing economies in America therefore this gap will widen.

4. Washington's population is 14% immigrant compared to Minnesota which is 8%
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil. ... washington
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil. ... -minnesota

So, let's step away from comparing MSP and SEA

At least it’s not the MSP vs. DTW comparison. But yes imo this argument has run its course.

It’s a nice wish list, but I can’t see much coming from it. But 2019 is a new year. I suppose anything can happen.


The MAC itself compared MSP to DTW in its annual reports, until the merger :).
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: MSP's regional air service partnership success

Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:28 pm

FSDan wrote:
Is SEA's TATL capacity truly twice that of MSP? I don't think so...

Looking at next July:
SEA - 2x daily KEF, 5x weekly DUB, 3x weekly MAN, 3x daily LHR, 4x weekly LGW, 2x daily CDG, 2x daily AMS, 2x daily FRA
MSP - 2x daily + 3x weekly KEF, 1x daily DUB, 1x daily LHR, 2x daily CDG, 3x daily + 4x weekly AMS, 4x weekly FRA


I wasn't stating capacity, I was stating each airport's traffic figures. SEA has been double the size to Europe. Your list isn't including the fact that SEA also sees a larger gauge on average.

Take right now for another example:
KEF: SEA - daily 752/763; MSP - 4x weekly 78M
AMS: SEA - daily A333; MSP - 2x daily A333/763, 4x weekly 789 (the one route MSP is always larger)
CDG: SEA - daily 763, 3x weekly A332; MSP - daily 772
LHR: SEA - daily 772, daily 789, 3x weekly 772; MSP - daily 763
FRA: SEA - daily A333, 1x weekly 763; MSP - nothing (DE is seasonal only)
DUB: SEA - 3x weekly A332; MSP - EI hasn't started yet (won't be A332)

And of course although it isn't in Europe, it affects European carrier's traffic flow, so we can't forget that SEA has a daily EK 77W as well.

Amazing what competition does when you trust your local economy to drive traffic instead of obeying a hub carrier's wishes for a monopoly.

Midwestindy wrote:
To compare the corporate portfolio of MSP to SEA is quite unfair to Seattle:

https://www.businesstravelnews.com/Corp ... l-100/2018
The Seattle area is home to the major operations of 3 of the top 12 of the largest corporate travel spending companies in America

Microsoft alone, basically spends more on travel than all of those companies you mentioned combined, and that's without even including Boeing, Amazon, Starbucks, Costco, e.t.c.

Plus, Mall of America is very much a regional draw

This isn't even factoring in the huge international population of SEA, so I think it is much better to compare MSP and CLT than MSP and SEA.


Why should we compare MSP to a city a third smaller with less GDP per capita and a much smaller business profile? To not compare MSP to SEA would be very unfair to MSP.

The irony is that CLT also more than one of the big 3 TATL alliances, unlike MSP. More evidence of the MAC's incompetency going back decades.

Also, and this is a couple years old, the Mall of America alone saw 3 million international visitors annually

Although it's fine to mention that Microsoft, Boeing, and Amazon spend on travel, we don't know where that travel is. Is it Europe? That's what is important to know.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8250
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Re: MSP's regional air service partnership success

Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:40 pm

I can't believe there is a dick measuring contest between MSP & SEA. This may be an a.net first.
Frankly is a pretty ludicrous argument.
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 1923
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

Re: MSP's regional air service partnership success

Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:47 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I can't believe there is a dick measuring contest between MSP & SEA. This may be an a.net first.
Frankly is a pretty ludicrous argument.


This is the truest statement in this entire thread. VERY well said....and LMFAO funny!
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: MSP's regional air service partnership success

Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:53 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
To compare the corporate portfolio of MSP to SEA is quite unfair to Seattle:

https://www.businesstravelnews.com/Corp ... l-100/2018
The Seattle area is home to the major operations of 3 of the top 12 of the largest corporate travel spending companies in America

Microsoft alone, basically spends more on travel than all of those companies you mentioned combined, and that's without even including Boeing, Amazon, Starbucks, Costco, e.t.c.

Plus, Mall of America is very much a regional draw

This isn't even factoring in the huge international population of SEA, so I think it is much better to compare MSP and CLT than MSP and SEA.


Why should we compare MSP to a city a third smaller with less GDP per capita and a much smaller business profile? To not compare MSP to SEA would be very unfair to MSP.

The irony is that CLT also more than one of the big 3 TATL alliances, unlike MSP. More evidence of the MAC's incompetency going back decades.

Also, and this is a couple years old, the Mall of America alone saw 3 million international visitors annually

Although it's fine to mention that Microsoft, Boeing, and Amazon spend on travel, we don't know where that travel is. Is it Europe? That's what is important to know.


You can't be serious at this point

and Mall of America having 3 million international visitors.....c'mon now
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
blockski
Posts: 690
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:30 pm

Re: MSP's regional air service partnership success

Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:02 pm

I grew up in Minneapolis. Lovely city, lovely airport. Very nice all around.

As nice as it is, it's not a particularly diverse place. And while the Twin Cities are far more diverse than the rest of Minnesota, it's not nearly as diverse as other similarly sized Metro areas. The SEA region has about twice the number of foreign born individuals compared to the MSP region.

The differences in the business markets are also interesting; it makes sense to me that Seattle corporations would travel more than Minneapolis ones, but that seems somewhat harder to quantify.

When comparing the airports, it's worth remembering the completely different geography. MSP is a mid-continent hub, SEA is a coastal gateway. There's a reason MSP has a much stronger hub carrier presence; it's due to geography. SEA has more competition, yes, but that's part and parcel to the kind of market it is, not to any particular policy of the airport operator.

Airports with a similar profile to MSP are going to be more like mid-continent hubs serving markets with strong air travel demand, but not so strong as to invite major competition.

Anyway, as the metro area continues to grow, I would think both the MAC and the MSP business community would want to try to lure in more competition to Delta (and could make the business case for doing so). EI to DUB is a good addition, I would think LH to FRA/MUC would be a good target - Condor serves such a different market segment, inviting a new alliance player and a new international route would be a big plus - also, the UA/LH JV seems to be branching out into newer markets these days...

I'd also say BA to LHR, though that would be head to head with Delta.
 
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SteveXC500
Posts: 600
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Re: MSP's regional air service partnership success

Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:05 pm

I would stop focusing on Corporations and Fortune 500 ones at that (Cargill is not F500 because they are private). What about smaller companies with International presence? What about the Midwest region as a whole? It's not just the Twin Cities - Duluth, Fargo, Madison, Rochester, Des Moines, Rapid City...and on and on. I work for a Fortune 500 company and we have thousands of employees and we are in double-digit numbers of countries. Do we make a dent in travel? Not likely.
But, where these companies are matters when it comes to the amount of money paid to employees who will also travel, domestically and internationally. The region of MSP is the only reason planes are full, too.
 
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SteveXC500
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Re: MSP's regional air service partnership success

Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:13 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
To compare the corporate portfolio of MSP to SEA is quite unfair to Seattle:

https://www.businesstravelnews.com/Corp ... l-100/2018
The Seattle area is home to the major operations of 3 of the top 12 of the largest corporate travel spending companies in America

Microsoft alone, basically spends more on travel than all of those companies you mentioned combined, and that's without even including Boeing, Amazon, Starbucks, Costco, e.t.c.

Plus, Mall of America is very much a regional draw

This isn't even factoring in the huge international population of SEA, so I think it is much better to compare MSP and CLT than MSP and SEA.


Why should we compare MSP to a city a third smaller with less GDP per capita and a much smaller business profile? To not compare MSP to SEA would be very unfair to MSP.

The irony is that CLT also more than one of the big 3 TATL alliances, unlike MSP. More evidence of the MAC's incompetency going back decades.

Also, and this is a couple years old, the Mall of America alone saw 3 million international visitors annually

Although it's fine to mention that Microsoft, Boeing, and Amazon spend on travel, we don't know where that travel is. Is it Europe? That's what is important to know.


You can't be serious at this point

and Mall of America having 3 million international visitors.....c'mon now



3 million may be high, but according to this article, (http://tcbmag.com/news/articles/2017/se ... l-visitors) in 2015 it was 1.8 million.
 
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Midwestindy
Posts: 5435
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: MSP's regional air service partnership success

Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:23 pm

SteveXC500 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:


Why should we compare MSP to a city a third smaller with less GDP per capita and a much smaller business profile? To not compare MSP to SEA would be very unfair to MSP.

The irony is that CLT also more than one of the big 3 TATL alliances, unlike MSP. More evidence of the MAC's incompetency going back decades.

Also, and this is a couple years old, the Mall of America alone saw 3 million international visitors annually

Although it's fine to mention that Microsoft, Boeing, and Amazon spend on travel, we don't know where that travel is. Is it Europe? That's what is important to know.


You can't be serious at this point

and Mall of America having 3 million international visitors.....c'mon now


3 million may be high, but according to this article, (http://tcbmag.com/news/articles/2017/se ... l-visitors) in 2015 it was 1.8 million.


"According to the U.S. Department of Commerce’s Survey of International Air Travelers, 311,000 international travelers visited the state in 2015 (excluding Canadians), if half of Minnesota’s international visitors go to MOA, they would need to visit between 11 and 12 times to reach 1.8 million visits"

The article you are referencing is poking fun at that 1.8 million number
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FSDan
Posts: 3340
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: MSP's regional air service partnership success

Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:59 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
FSDan wrote:
Is SEA's TATL capacity truly twice that of MSP? I don't think so...

Looking at next July:
SEA - 2x daily KEF, 5x weekly DUB, 3x weekly MAN, 3x daily LHR, 4x weekly LGW, 2x daily CDG, 2x daily AMS, 2x daily FRA
MSP - 2x daily + 3x weekly KEF, 1x daily DUB, 1x daily LHR, 2x daily CDG, 3x daily + 4x weekly AMS, 4x weekly FRA


I wasn't stating capacity, I was stating each airport's traffic figures. SEA has been double the size to Europe. Your list isn't including the fact that SEA also sees a larger gauge on average.

Take right now for another example:
KEF: SEA - daily 752/763; MSP - 4x weekly 78M
AMS: SEA - daily A333; MSP - 2x daily A333/763, 4x weekly 789 (the one route MSP is always larger)
CDG: SEA - daily 763, 3x weekly A332; MSP - daily 772
LHR: SEA - daily 772, daily 789, 3x weekly 772; MSP - daily 763
FRA: SEA - daily A333, 1x weekly 763; MSP - nothing (DE is seasonal only)
DUB: SEA - 3x weekly A332; MSP - EI hasn't started yet (won't be A332)


That's certainly a fair point - I was looking at an upcoming seasonal peak and focusing on capacity while you were looking at historical passenger numbers. The fact remains that as of next July, MSP and SEA will have pretty comparable capacity to most European markets, with the notable exceptions being the UK (where SEA has the largest lead on MSP), FRA (which SEA also handily wins), and AMS (where MSP handily beats SEA). The FRA vs AMS capacity differences are basically a wash between the two airports, so that leaves the UK as really the only transatlantic market where SEA is beating MSP. I still don't feel like the differences in capacity are disproportionate to the metro areas...

MSPNWA wrote:
And of course although it isn't in Europe, it affects European carrier's traffic flow, so we can't forget that SEA has a daily EK 77W as well.


I did mention that one in my comparison. If you compare the South Asian population of Seattle to the South Asian population of Minneapolis, it makes complete sense that SEA is ahead of MSP in this regard.

MSPNWA wrote:
Amazing what competition does when you trust your local economy to drive traffic instead of obeying a hub carrier's wishes for a monopoly.


So the MAC has been turning away suitors such as BA and LH in order to preserve NW's and now DL's dominance? I've never heard of an airport authority that doesn't want more international tails... It seems that despite their best efforts, FI, DE, and now EI have come to town.

MSPNWA wrote:
Also, and this is a couple years old, the Mall of America alone saw 3 million international visitors annually

Although it's fine to mention that Microsoft, Boeing, and Amazon spend on travel, we don't know where that travel is. Is it Europe? That's what is important to know.


You could ask the same about the Mall of America. How many of those visitors are from Europe? I'd guess not too many...

I don't know how much international travel Amazon stimulates, but I'd be willing to bet that Microsoft and Boeing are both significant drivers of international traffic in and out of SEA.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: MSP's regional air service partnership success

Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:23 pm

Why not give both cities their due, MSP has had a long record of success and continues to do well. SEA has several globe-smashing juggernaut companies of near unlimited value, the richest men in the world, colossal tech wealth and importance, colossal expat community from unlimited wealth China... zillions of young people coming in... appealing natural scenery with mountains, ocean, islands... I wouldn't be surprised if, all else being similar, SEA has 2x the net worth of MSP area. And MSP is great. Best of breed, probably, within its category. SEA is one of the first tier tech cities, and tech is, for lack of a better word, everything. MSP once was a first tier tech city - as was Detroit. They are still cool places, but don't saddle them with unrealistic expectations
 
rainaviation
Posts: 188
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:28 pm

Re: MSP's regional air service partnership success

Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:50 am

Let's all calm down... Both airports/cities have their purpose, both airports/cities have very different but important purposes!

MSP has 163 nonstop markets. 27 of those being international. With 16 airlines servicing the airport. MSP has roughly 128 gates. MSP was voted as best airport for 25-40 million passengers in 2016 and 2017. Only DEN and ATL serve more markets per capita. MSP serves as a very important connecting hub for the Midwest and winter flights to the Caribbean and Mexico. DL is expanding slowly in MSP, as they already serve over 50% of the market in MSP.

SEA has 34 airlines that serve 119 nonstop markets. 28 of those international. Traffic at SEA has increased by over 10 million in the last 5 years. SEA serves as a very important connecting hub for flights to Asia and for Alaska Airlines. DL continues to expand rapidly in SEA.

As you can see, MSP and SEA actually have almost the same international destinations in terms of numbers. With the addition of ICN and MEX and DUB, MSP will actually surpass SEA. HOWEVER, many of those international from MSP are seasonal winter flights that operate once or twice a week to places like MZT, AUA, MBJ or HUX. Most of SEA's international destinations are daily or daily seasonal.

To say one is better than the other is ludicrous as they both serve very important roles in the domestic AND international airline industry for their respective hub airlines.

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