blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:55 pm

I would rather take a rideshare directly to the front curb of the new Terminal 1. Who wants to deal with a tram from downtown or Midway Dr? That would just be slower and more complicated.

If someone can afford the price of an airline ticket then they should be able to afford the cost of a rideshare to the airport. If not, then there is always bus 992.
 
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Coronado990
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:05 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
I would rather take a rideshare directly to the front curb of the new Terminal 1. Who wants to deal with a tram from downtown or Midway Dr? That would just be slower and more complicated.

If someone can afford the price of an airline ticket then they should be able to afford the cost of a rideshare to the airport. If not, then there is always bus 992.


Until you're stuck on N. Harbor Dr. and the tram wizzes right by you. The road can only handle a finite amount of car traffic.
We're up.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:17 pm

Coronado990 wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
I would rather take a rideshare directly to the front curb of the new Terminal 1. Who wants to deal with a tram from downtown or Midway Dr? That would just be slower and more complicated.

If someone can afford the price of an airline ticket then they should be able to afford the cost of a rideshare to the airport. If not, then there is always bus 992.


Until you're stuck on N. Harbor Dr. and the tram wizzes right by you. The road can only handle a finite amount of car traffic.


And the amount of traffic is only going to grow.

I agree that not everyone is going to want to take mass transit; however, not everyone can be handled in private automobiles. A combination of both forms is the best bet for the future, lest we end up like LAX in eternal gridlock.
 
tmiw
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:39 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Coronado990 wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
I would rather take a rideshare directly to the front curb of the new Terminal 1. Who wants to deal with a tram from downtown or Midway Dr? That would just be slower and more complicated.

If someone can afford the price of an airline ticket then they should be able to afford the cost of a rideshare to the airport. If not, then there is always bus 992.


Until you're stuck on N. Harbor Dr. and the tram wizzes right by you. The road can only handle a finite amount of car traffic.


And the amount of traffic is only going to grow.

I agree that not everyone is going to want to take mass transit; however, not everyone can be handled in private automobiles. A combination of both forms is the best bet for the future, lest we end up like LAX in eternal gridlock.


Plus, there's also the chance that SAN might consolidate Uber and Lyft at the future transit center, kinda like SFO and the top of the central parking garage. For better or worse, that would pretty much force you to use the tram just to get to and from your rideshare.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:52 pm

Is the tram going to use the same right-of-way as the rental car bus road?
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:59 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
Is the tram going to use the same right-of-way as the rental car bus road?


There are many proposals; however, none of them are actually on Harbor Drive. The focus is on connecting one of the trolley stops - either Washington Street, Middletown, or perhaps a new one - to the new terminals.

Somewhere on one of the multitude of pages is my rendering of the plan, which actually is fairly close to what was proposed. The whole reason the original plan WITHOUT a transit option was rejected was because of the desire to include mass transit as an alternative in the new terminal designs.

We went through losing out on a mass transit option many years ago - and I'm glad it was caught this time.
 
TravelbyAir
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:32 am

We all hate the delay; however, the public transit absolutely had to be done. It is utterly ludicrous to me that rail lines are literally right across the street from the airport, and for a second time, a decision was made to ignore it and focus solely on autos. At least this time public outcry forced the board to do the right thing and get people out of cars earlier than the front curb.

No one (aka very few if at all) is/are going to ride the trolley to get to the airport. It's a long enough PRE-trip to get there in a car, park, shuttle and fly. Add a few hours using rail lines.

Nope, the rail connections are a huge waste of money and time, just like all other "mass" transit throughout the county.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:30 am

On some nights the northbound Green Line trolley is packed (standing room only). I noticed the train is usually only two or three cars long. Imagine airline passengers (plus their bags) trying to share these trains with all the other commuters. For anybody coming from Downtown, I believe the Route 992 bus will still be much faster, as going north to Washington Street would require backtracking.

Is their some technical reason as to why these trolleys are so short?

If a tram from Washington Street does come to fruition I think it would only benefit people coming off the California High Speed Rail train from North County and Riverside County. I believe Washington Street is to be the southern terminus of the high speed train.
 
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Coronado990
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:50 pm

TravelbyAir wrote:
We all hate the delay; however, the public transit absolutely had to be done. It is utterly ludicrous to me that rail lines are literally right across the street from the airport, and for a second time, a decision was made to ignore it and focus solely on autos. At least this time public outcry forced the board to do the right thing and get people out of cars earlier than the front curb.

No one (aka very few if at all) is/are going to ride the trolley to get to the airport. It's a long enough PRE-trip to get there in a car, park, shuttle and fly. Add a few hours using rail lines.

Nope, the rail connections are a huge waste of money and time, just like all other "mass" transit throughout the county.


Isn't aviation "mass" transit? Most of on here want more than fast cars on clogged and beat up roads.
We're up.
 
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hawaiian717
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:05 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
On some nights the northbound Green Line trolley is packed (standing room only). I noticed the train is usually only two or three cars long. Imagine airline passengers (plus their bags) trying to share these trains with all the other commuters. For anybody coming from Downtown, I believe the Route 992 bus will still be much faster, as going north to Washington Street would require backtracking.

Is their some technical reason as to why these trolleys are so short?


I think it's a function of average ridership generally doesn't call for longer trains. During Padres games, ComicCon and other large events they have used longer trains (up to 4 cars).

I think as the network expands it becomes more useful. During university holidays for example, SDSU and UCSD students would be able to take the trolley to the airport; when I was a UCSD student they ran special airport shuttles for Thanksgiving and Spring Break, I don't know if they still do.
 
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DLSANMan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:08 pm

As a San Diegan, I wish we had better transit to our airport. I’m not sure how many of you live here, but as a 3x weekly flier I wish they had a link to downtown to keep the tourists moving. I fly mostly mornings, and the back up slows me down 10 minutes. The new departures ramp to T2 is constantly backed up. Impatient people, who cut people off causing the massive backup. I also HATE having to wait on people that lose their minds within a 3 mile radius of our airport. But I don’t think that is exclusive to SAN. We have a lot of once per year travelers coming to our beautiful city and I think we need to do a better job facilitating their ease of travel. Anything we can do to reduce the total number of cars on Harbor would be welcomed!
 
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hawaiian717
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:44 am

DLSANMan wrote:
I’m not sure how many of you live here, but as a 3x weekly flier I wish they had a link to downtown to keep the tourists moving.


Downtown is one of the few areas served well by transit to the airport thanks to the 992 bus. The problem though for tourists is that even if they're going to take the 992 to a downtown hotel, they may not want to rely on the bus and trolley to get around to whatever they want to see, so if they're going to rent a car anyway, they might as well just rent a car at the airport. Though considering the location of the rental car center, I'd think that tourist rental cars would have a bigger impact on Pacific Hwy traffic rather than Harbor Drive.
 
cheapflier
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:56 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
Is their some technical reason as to why these trolleys are so short?


I believe they have to fit within a city block, so four cars is the max. Generally Green Line runs with three cars during the day and two at night. If it were to become a booming option for travelers, it would likely be able to accommodate them even by simply adding the fourth car during peak service.

Let's not forget the Blue Line will also serve the same corridor starting in 2021 when the Mid-Coast Trolley expansion is complete.

hawaiian717 wrote:
Downtown is one of the few areas served well by transit to the airport thanks to the 992 bus. The problem though for tourists is that even if they're going to take the 992 to a downtown hotel, they may not want to rely on the bus and trolley to get around to whatever they want to see, so if they're going to rent a car anyway, they might as well just rent a car at the airport. Though considering the location of the rental car center, I'd think that tourist rental cars would have a bigger impact on Pacific Hwy traffic rather than Harbor Drive.


The 992 serves Downtown well during the day, but after 6pm it's terrible. It's unreasonable to think someone will get off a flight and be willing to wait 30 minutes for a bus.

I use the Trolley-Terminal connection (now Rental Car Shuttle) to Middletown when I have to use public transit, but the walk from the stop to station is enough to put off many tourists. I wouldn't mind seeing bus service extended to Old Town Transit Center. Between Downtown and OLT you would have enough transit connections to reasonably get places with only one transfer.
 
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lindy field
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:08 pm

Why not just make the downtown to airport trolley line part of a larger line from Pt. Loma to Balboa Park and Hillcrest, via the airport and the downtown transit hub? I tend to agree that a short spur just to the airport is a dubious proposition, but I don't see why the airport has to be the terminal stop.

Traffic was terrible during my most recent visit to San Diego. More and better public transit certainly wouldn't hurt.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:02 am

TravelbyAir wrote:
We all hate the delay; however, the public transit absolutely had to be done. It is utterly ludicrous to me that rail lines are literally right across the street from the airport, and for a second time, a decision was made to ignore it and focus solely on autos. At least this time public outcry forced the board to do the right thing and get people out of cars earlier than the front curb.

No one (aka very few if at all) is/are going to ride the trolley to get to the airport. It's a long enough PRE-trip to get there in a car, park, shuttle and fly. Add a few hours using rail lines.

Nope, the rail connections are a huge waste of money and time, just like all other "mass" transit throughout the county.


Like LAX is now?

Going to disagree vehemently on the mass transit issue - it's not the only solution, but it's a necessary part of it.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:57 am

What if in the future they moved both terminals to the north side of the airport and moved the runway to where the current terminals are now? I am talking about fifty years down the road. This would give both terminals direct access to Blue Line/Green Line/Coaster/Amtrak. I think this is the best long term solution. The railroad has been there for 140 years and cannot be moved. It is easier to relocate the terminals and the runway. Brown Field could serve as a temporary airport while SAN is being rebuilt.
 
BML87
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:14 am

Swoop will no longer start San Diego
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:21 am

BML87 wrote:
Swoop will no longer start San Diego

I don't know what your source is -- I can't find the Swoop thread -- but I do see that SAN.org has removed the service announcement from their news page and Swoop has removed SAN from their home page and route map...

Nice. I think I remember that they also announced OAK and pulled that service before it began...

I guess when their route planners throw spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks, it must keep falling to the floor pretty quickly.

I have to say, Swoop (read: WestJet), you're not building a lot of respect amongst North America's airports. You're going to have trouble being taken seriously next time you announce a new city.... Assuming you are around long enough to worry about more expansion.

In any case, thanx for the heads up BML'.

bb
 
SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:22 am

BML87 wrote:
Swoop will no longer start San Diego


Swoop advertised SAN all over their website and now their not going to serve SAN as advertised? That doesn't look good for them! Does Swoop have any 737 MAX planes?
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hawaiian717
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:04 am

cheapflier wrote:
The 992 serves Downtown well during the day, but after 6pm it's terrible. It's unreasonable to think someone will get off a flight and be willing to wait 30 minutes for a bus.

I use the Trolley-Terminal connection (now Rental Car Shuttle) to Middletown when I have to use public transit, but the walk from the stop to station is enough to put off many tourists. I wouldn't mind seeing bus service extended to Old Town Transit Center. Between Downtown and OLT you would have enough transit connections to reasonably get places with only one transfer.


I didn't realize the schedule was so limited after 6pm for 992, I agree that's bad. I've also thought extending the 992 to loop back to Old Town would be nice, but after looking at a map and realizing the way things are laid out I can see why they stick to connecting the airport to transit via the east side; the airport may feel like it parallels I-5 but it really doesn't. Though my understanding is that the Grand Central Terminal proposal for the NAVWAR (SPAWAR) site adjacent to the existing Old Town trolley station would include an airport connection.
 
SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:36 pm

SANMAN66 wrote:
BML87 wrote:
Swoop will no longer start San Diego

Does Swoop have any 737 MAX planes?


I saw in another thread that Swoop only delayed starting SAN until Feb. 2020 because of those 737 MAX planes again!
PSA Gives you a lift!
 
tmiw
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:59 pm

I just noticed this permit pop up on the city's website for T1W: https://opendsd.sandiego.gov/Web/Projec ... ils/643255. Any idea what they're doing? I would have figured they'd only do the bare minimum until the new T1's built.
 
SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:32 pm

tmiw wrote:
I just noticed this permit pop up on the city's website for T1W: https://opendsd.sandiego.gov/Web/Projec ... ils/643255. Any idea what they're doing? I would have figured they'd only do the bare minimum until the new T1's built.


Probably remodelling T-1 again!
PSA Gives you a lift!
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:58 pm

tmiw wrote:
I just noticed this permit pop up on the city's website for T1W: https://opendsd.sandiego.gov/Web/Projec ... ils/643255. Any idea what they're doing? I would have figured they'd only do the bare minimum until the new T1's built.


The first words listed under "Scope" are "Airport Authority: Building,"... I think I remember seeing that SDIA is going to build a new SDCRAA/SDIA administration building since most of their offices are currently located in the old PSA hanger which will be removed at some point to make way for the new terminal. I don't know if that is what this is since the Scope also mentions "an existing two-story commercial building" along with the Project name being "Terminal 1 West TI". ??? That wouldn't be the new SDCRAA admin bldg.

It doesn't really make a whole lot of sense when all read together. (To the best of my knowledge, T1W -- if that's what they mean -- has no 2-story buildings unless they are referring to the west rotunda which does have a ground floor for ops, etc., plus the upper floor which is gates 11-18. I don't believe any of the lobby/ticket counter part of T1W is 2 story is it? (If so, maybe some remodeling for JetBlue's new digs?)

I'd hope maybe it was for a lounge out in the rotunda -- where the old UA Red Carpet Room used to be -- but that would surprise me. By whom? A generic club room like the one in T2E? I don't recall hearing anything related to any of this at the recent board meetings...

bb
 
tmiw
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:23 am

SANFan wrote:
tmiw wrote:
I just noticed this permit pop up on the city's website for T1W: https://opendsd.sandiego.gov/Web/Projec ... ils/643255. Any idea what they're doing? I would have figured they'd only do the bare minimum until the new T1's built.


The first words listed under "Scope" are "Airport Authority: Building,"... I think I remember seeing that SDIA is going to build a new SDCRAA/SDIA administration building since most of their offices are currently located in the old PSA hanger which will be removed at some point to make way for the new terminal. I don't know if that is what this is since the Scope also mentions "an existing two-story commercial building" along with the Project name being "Terminal 1 West TI". ??? That wouldn't be the new SDCRAA admin bldg.

It doesn't really make a whole lot of sense when all read together. (To the best of my knowledge, T1W -- if that's what they mean -- has no 2-story buildings unless they are referring to the west rotunda which does have a ground floor for ops, etc., plus the upper floor which is gates 11-18. I don't believe any of the lobby/ticket counter part of T1W is 2 story is it? (If so, maybe some remodeling for JetBlue's new digs?)

I'd hope maybe it was for a lounge out in the rotunda -- where the old UA Red Carpet Room used to be -- but that would surprise me. By whom? A generic club room like the one in T2E? I don't recall hearing anything related to any of this at the recent board meetings...

bb


Clicking around that project I found that they paid a fee corresponding to 1,747 square feet. How big is the old UA lounge space? Otherwise it seems more like it's space for a concession of some sort.
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:45 am

tmiw wrote:
Clicking around that project I found that they paid a fee corresponding to 1,747 square feet. How big is the old UA lounge space? Otherwise it seems more like it's space for a concession of some sort.

I also did some searching and found a map and picture, presumably the site of the project, that gave me NO clue as to what the location of the job is! It looked like weeds were on the ground (outdoors?) with a lot of major construction in the background... (Maybe it was an old picture.) The map did locate the project right where the terminals are.

I did see that mention of the size of the space but didn't really think about how big/little it is. (I have no idea what size the UA club space was -- and I was never in it.)

If you click on some of the links on that home page, you will probably stumble on the map and photo; I'd be very curious what your thinking is about that. (Sorry I don't have the link to the page with the pic but I'll go back in and find (and post) it.) Kind of a fun mystery, eh?

bb
 
tmiw
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:17 am

SANFan wrote:
tmiw wrote:
Clicking around that project I found that they paid a fee corresponding to 1,747 square feet. How big is the old UA lounge space? Otherwise it seems more like it's space for a concession of some sort.

I also did some searching and found a map and picture, presumably the site of the project, that gave me NO clue as to what the location of the job is! It looked like weeds were on the ground (outdoors?) with a lot of major construction in the background... (Maybe it was an old picture.) The map did locate the project right where the terminals are.

I did see that mention of the size of the space but didn't really think about how big/little it is. (I have no idea what size the UA club space was -- and I was never in it.)

If you click on some of the links on that home page, you will probably stumble on the map and photo; I'd be very curious what your thinking is about that. (Sorry I don't have the link to the page with the pic but I'll go back in and find (and post) it.) Kind of a fun mystery, eh?

bb


The photo looks like Google Street View for that address, which appears to have been taken from the ground level roadway at T2. I'm not sure I'd put too much faith in that, honestly.

Though...is it possible that it's mistyped and they actually meant T2W? There is supposedly a lounge that's going in there (albeit much larger than ~1700sqft from what I remember reading).
 
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Coronado990
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:02 pm

I'd like to talk about our two potential reliever airports once Lindbergh reaches saturation. Carlsbad-Palomar really has a hard time gaining traction and at the same time it is sandwiched between two tiny airports, Orange County-John Wayne and Lindbergh Field in central San Diego. SNA is artificially capped and SAN has it's one runway downtown capacity limits. I know CLD has severe runway limitations but it has had bad luck ever since the terminal was built it seems.

Another airport with severe runway limitations is Brown Field on Otay Mesa near TIJ. However it is not the short runway that is the case at Carlsbad-Palomar, but a huge mountain called Otay that make approaches difficult. It has no ILS. But perhaps a ULCC airport might work there. It would not necessarily cater to the San Diego population but for both US passengers and over-the-border pax from the Tijuana region flying to popular destinations around the west. I understand that with extra custom user fees and taxes, a direct non-stop from TIJ to destinations in the US such as SFO, LAS, PHX and DEN would be too expensive compaired to flights from SAN. Does anybody have any numbers on how many pax from Tjuana use the San Dieo airport?

It seems to me that Brown Field could at the very least accommodate daytime only flights on a limited basis to OAK/LAS/IWA on Allegiant or to SFO/LAS/PHX/DEN on Frontier. It could be advertised as the Chula Vista/Tijuana Regional Airport at San Diego. As a side note, I wouldn't schedule any flights to come in at night, or summer during June gloom mornings for that matter. A least until an ILS from the west can be installed.

As for Carlsbad-Palomar, I would have thought with the plithora of E-175's out there, the big three and Alaska would have started some sort of service. However, with the MAX groundings, maybe the timing would have been not so good at this time. If the grounded birds do come to life, then I would think some kind of growth would follow and with the new A220 being able to offer more range out of CLD, the future might have something in store for the neglected North County airport. For starters, I'd like to see DL stun everyone by adding flights to SJC and AUS, two of their new so called focus cities along with SLC and LAS. My question is, can the A220 do CLD-ATL out of CLD's short 4900 foot runway or is it range limited as well?

UA could return with E-175 flights to their SFO and DEN hubs. ORD and IAH would probably come with a runway extention needed at some point. As for AA, PHX would be served but I think LAX would be too short of a flight. Again, a runway extention would be necessary to serve DFW.

AS could serve a gambit of destinations including SFO, SJC, OAK, SMF and RNO all of which could provide one-stop flight options to PDX and SEA. A runway extention would be needed to serve the Pacific Northwest non-stop (an advatage DL might have with their new A220). SJD might be an option for AS. Also in the mix you have F9, B6 and Moxy. Aren't they getting the A220 as well? It seems like so much potential. It really is too bad the California Pacific management was such a train wreck and couldn't get this market going but I think CLD will have it's day..

Anyway, just looking at how to deal with the next decade of growth.
We're up.
 
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Tugger
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:08 pm

So the Points Guy just put out a ranking of the 50 major US airports and SAN is tops! Wow, color me suprised (but pleased) :bigthumbsup:
https://thepointsguy.com/news/tpg-best- ... s-of-2019/

The local paper wrote an article on it.
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/bu ... n-location

Tugg
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blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:51 am

Coronado990 wrote:
I'd like to talk about our two potential reliever airports once Lindbergh reaches saturation. Carlsbad-Palomar really has a hard time gaining traction and at the same time it is sandwiched between two tiny airports, Orange County-John Wayne and Lindbergh Field in central San Diego. SNA is artificially capped and SAN has it's one runway downtown capacity limits. I know CLD has severe runway limitations but it has had bad luck ever since the terminal was built it seems.

Another airport with severe runway limitations is Brown Field on Otay Mesa near TIJ. However it is not the short runway that is the case at Carlsbad-Palomar, but a huge mountain called Otay that make approaches difficult. It has no ILS. But perhaps a ULCC airport might work there. It would not necessarily cater to the San Diego population but for both US passengers and over-the-border pax from the Tijuana region flying to popular destinations around the west. I understand that with extra custom user fees and taxes, a direct non-stop from TIJ to destinations in the US such as SFO, LAS, PHX and DEN would be too expensive compaired to flights from SAN. Does anybody have any numbers on how many pax from Tjuana use the San Dieo airport?

It seems to me that Brown Field could at the very least accommodate daytime only flights on a limited basis to OAK/LAS/IWA on Allegiant or to SFO/LAS/PHX/DEN on Frontier. It could be advertised as the Chula Vista/Tijuana Regional Airport at San Diego. As a side note, I wouldn't schedule any flights to come in at night, or summer during June gloom mornings for that matter. A least until an ILS from the west can be installed.

As for Carlsbad-Palomar, I would have thought with the plithora of E-175's out there, the big three and Alaska would have started some sort of service. However, with the MAX groundings, maybe the timing would have been not so good at this time. If the grounded birds do come to life, then I would think some kind of growth would follow and with the new A220 being able to offer more range out of CLD, the future might have something in store for the neglected North County airport. For starters, I'd like to see DL stun everyone by adding flights to SJC and AUS, two of their new so called focus cities along with SLC and LAS. My question is, can the A220 do CLD-ATL out of CLD's short 4900 foot runway or is it range limited as well?

UA could return with E-175 flights to their SFO and DEN hubs. ORD and IAH would probably come with a runway extention needed at some point. As for AA, PHX would be served but I think LAX would be too short of a flight. Again, a runway extention would be necessary to serve DFW.

AS could serve a gambit of destinations including SFO, SJC, OAK, SMF and RNO all of which could provide one-stop flight options to PDX and SEA. A runway extention would be needed to serve the Pacific Northwest non-stop (an advatage DL might have with their new A220). SJD might be an option for AS. Also in the mix you have F9, B6 and Moxy. Aren't they getting the A220 as well? It seems like so much potential. It really is too bad the California Pacific management was such a train wreck and couldn't get this market going but I think CLD will have it's day..

Anyway, just looking at how to deal with the next decade of growth.

Will CLD ever see 757 service?
 
SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:41 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
Will CLD ever see 757 service?


The runway is too short. CLD can barely handle regional jets.
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Coronado990
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:45 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
Will CLD ever see 757 service?


Are you confusing an E-175 with a 757. They both have a "75" in it. One is a bit smaller. And newer for that matter, although I bet the 757 could do it if it had too. Great plane.
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blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:57 pm

I'm wondering if there is enough land available at CLD to make the runway long enough for transcon flights?
 
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Coronado990
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:42 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
I'm wondering if there is enough land available at CLD to make the runway long enough for transcon flights?


I was wondering the same thing. Could a A220 fly from a 4900 foot runway to somewhere like ATL, JFK or even BOS with a full load? If not, how long of a runway does it need? Looks like it could get a similar length runway as John Wayne Airport when expanded...around 5700 feet.
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SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:15 pm

Coronado990 wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
I'm wondering if there is enough land available at CLD to make the runway long enough for transcon flights?


I was wondering the same thing. Could a A220 fly from a 4900 foot runway to somewhere like ATL, JFK or even BOS with a full load? If not, how long of a runway does it need? Looks like it could get a similar length runway as John Wayne Airport when expanded...around 5700 feet.


If CLD's runway was expanded to 5,700 it could handle aircraft such as 757s or 737s like SNA. In fact, SNA can handle A300s. The key thing is demand, what would want people to use CLD instead of SNA or SAN? CLD officials must come up with ways to drum up demand for North County residents who will continue to drive to SAN and SNA where there is a large selection of flights from Southwest or Alaska.
Convenience is not enough to drum up demand. California Pacific found out the hard way.
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ajlombardi2
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:33 pm

SANMAN66 wrote:
Coronado990 wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
I'm wondering if there is enough land available at CLD to make the runway long enough for transcon flights?


I was wondering the same thing. Could a A220 fly from a 4900 foot runway to somewhere like ATL, JFK or even BOS with a full load? If not, how long of a runway does it need? Looks like it could get a similar length runway as John Wayne Airport when expanded...around 5700 feet.


If CLD's runway was expanded to 5,700 it could handle aircraft such as 757s or 737s like SNA. In fact, SNA can handle A300s. The key thing is demand, what would want people to use CLD instead of SNA or SAN? CLD officials must come up with ways to drum up demand for North County residents who will continue to drive to SAN and SNA where there is a large selection of flights from Southwest or Alaska.
Convenience is not enough to drum up demand. California Pacific found out the hard way.


having a carrier that connects to a real network from CLD is a lot different though than Cal Pacific. I always thought united should have had a CLD-SFO flight rather than CLD-LAX. There is O&D demand (doubt many people were commuting to LAX by plane?) and you can still funnel the international connections thru SFO rather than LAX.
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:19 pm

I believe the NIMBYs have made it quite clear that not a foot is to be added to the CLD runway; they've not been real happy with any recent air service involving jets (including the building of the nice new terminal a few years ago) and I doubt they are going to sit quietly by if the bulldozers show up to add a thousand feet to the current runway! (And I don't believe there's that much real estate to extend the strip anyway.)

bb
 
tootallsd
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:29 pm

Without any clear market, cost seems prohibitive. The airport is on a bit of a Mesa. Extending to the west would require considerable fill, business relocation, intrude on a golf course etc. in the craziest scenario part of Palomar Airport Rd may need realignment into more businesses. Not a simple question of laying down some more paving on relatively flat ground.
 
SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:26 am

SANFan wrote:
I believe the NIMBYs have made it quite clear that not a foot is to be added to the CLD runway; they've not been real happy with any recent air service involving jets (including the building of the nice new terminal a few years ago) and I doubt they are going to sit quietly by if the bulldozers show up to add a thousand feet to the current runway! (And I don't believe there's that much real estate to extend the strip anyway.)

bb


You're right, the NIMBYs will be a big problem for expanding the runway at CLD. I'll bet Carlsbad residents are afraid that CLD will get A380 service if the runway's expanded! (Lol)! :lol:
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hawaiian717
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:55 am

A Swoop spokesperson confirmed to The Points Guy that San Diego flights were delayed due to the grounding of the 737MAX at parent WestJet and they now plan to begin serving SAN in summer 2020.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/why-swoop ... grounding/
 
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Coronado990
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:11 pm

Image

It's about 1400 feet from the end of RWY 24 at CLD to the road. At least 400 feet could be extended to the east and still have your 1000 feet of clear zone. The main problem I see is the taxiway extention. Anything beyond a 400 foot extention would require the taxiway to be on the north side of the field.
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blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:36 pm

I would like to see an international terminal built at CLD.
 
tootallsd
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:12 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
I would like to see an international terminal built at CLD.


Why? It would be a tremendous waste of money. There is no commercial service at this airport! Why would international capabilities change this?
 
SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:39 pm

Coronado990 wrote:
Image

It's about 1400 feet from the end of RWY 24 at CLD to the road. At least 400 feet could be extended to the east and still have your 1000 feet of clear zone. The main problem I see is the taxiway extention. Anything beyond a 400 foot extention would require the taxiway to be on the north side of the field.


It looks as if aircraft wanting to use the extra 400ft of runway would have to loop around to the North taxiway .
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SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:45 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
I would like to see an international terminal built at CLD.


The first thing is to get some sort of commercial service at CLD period. As I mentioned in a previous post, demand has got to warrant Int'l flights. CLD is having trouble getting domestic flights, first things first!
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SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:54 pm

hawaiian717 wrote:
A Swoop spokesperson confirmed to The Points Guy that San Diego flights were delayed due to the grounding of the 737MAX at parent WestJet and they now plan to begin serving SAN in summer 2020.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/why-swoop ... grounding/


It seems as if many airlines are using the same excuse: the 737 MAX groundings. The way I've read the article, Swoop doesn't have any MAX planes, but it's parent company Westjet has them. Does Swoop use Westjet planes as subs?
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Coronado990
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:16 pm

SANMAN66 wrote:
Coronado990 wrote:
Image

It's about 1400 feet from the end of RWY 24 at CLD to the road. At least 400 feet could be extended to the east and still have your 1000 feet of clear zone. The main problem I see is the taxiway extention. Anything beyond a 400 foot extention would require the taxiway to be on the north side of the field.


It looks as if aircraft wanting to use the extra 400ft of runway would have to loop around to the North taxiway .


I was thinking the taxiway could angle towards the runway in a similar fashion as Lindbergh Field in a 45 degree angle or so..
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PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:20 pm

Coronado990 wrote:
I'd like to talk about our two potential reliever airports once Lindbergh reaches saturation. Carlsbad-Palomar really has a hard time gaining traction and at the same time it is sandwiched between two tiny airports, Orange County-John Wayne and Lindbergh Field in central San Diego. SNA is artificially capped and SAN has it's one runway downtown capacity limits. I know CLD has severe runway limitations but it has had bad luck ever since the terminal was built it seems.


The most likely possible addition to San Diego county's airports with commercial service; however, as others have pointed out, expansion would be extraordinarily difficult.

Another airport with severe runway limitations is Brown Field on Otay Mesa near TIJ. However it is not the short runway that is the case at Carlsbad-Palomar, but a huge mountain called Otay that make approaches difficult. It has no ILS. But perhaps a ULCC airport might work there. It would not necessarily cater to the San Diego population but for both US passengers and over-the-border pax from the Tijuana region flying to popular destinations around the west. I understand that with extra custom user fees and taxes, a direct non-stop from TIJ to destinations in the US such as SFO, LAS, PHX and DEN would be too expensive compaired to flights from SAN. Does anybody have any numbers on how many pax from Tjuana use the San Dieo airport?

It seems to me that Brown Field could at the very least accommodate daytime only flights on a limited basis to OAK/LAS/IWA on Allegiant or to SFO/LAS/PHX/DEN on Frontier. It could be advertised as the Chula Vista/Tijuana Regional Airport at San Diego. As a side note, I wouldn't schedule any flights to come in at night, or summer during June gloom mornings for that matter. A least until an ILS from the west can be installed.


Well, it hasn't been mentioned yet, but NIMBY's in the south bay area of Chula Vista effectively killed a proposed cargo airport facility at Brown Field, because of an elementary school located near the take-off end of the runway. I'll bet they have those same picket signs still ready to go at a moment's notice.

However, given that (a) Brown Field is not convenient for ANYONE except Chula Vista, and (b) the costs of having passenger facilities built would necessitate higher landing fees that or course must be passed on to the consumer. This would completely negate any savings from an ULCC's service there. NIMBY's aside, I'd be hard pressed to see any presentation that would make people believe this was a viable alternative based on those reasons alone.

I don't have the answers, and I applaud the out-of-the-box thinking, but San Diego is like a West Berlin-style city: very clear and definite boundaries that can NOT be moved at all. The ocean, the mountains, Camp Pendleton, and Mexico limit our choices.
 
SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:23 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:

Well, it hasn't been mentioned yet, but NIMBY's in the south bay area of Chula Vista effectively killed a proposed cargo airport facility at Brown Field, because of an elementary school located near the take-off end of the runway. I'll bet they have those same picket signs still ready to go at a moment's notice.


Another airport proposal they had during the early 90s: TwinPorts. It was a binational airport straddling the border. It would have included terminals and a 12,000ft runway on the US side, connecting TIJ's terminal and runway via taxiway. Chula Vista and former mayor and congressman, Bob Filner killed that idea. I thought it was a really good idea at the time. They even persuaded Mexico to say no to the idea. They had silly acronyms such as CRASH: Citizens Rejecting Airport Siting Hype. I wonder now how TwinPorts would have fared after 9-11, had it gotten built?
Last edited by SANMAN66 on Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Coronado990
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:47 pm

The Brown Field ULCC concept was to attrack Tijuana passengers who would normally use SAN. Flights to the Bay Area, LAS, PHX and DEN at the most. Again I would like to ask if anyone knows how many passengers from Tijuana uses the San Diego Airport. I am going to guess a million annually.

The cargo airport concept at Brown Field was going to utilize an opposing traffic layout to avoid Otay Mountain because 747's were going to be used. I already knew that wasn't going to fly the first time I heard it.
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