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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:37 pm

AAtakeMeAway wrote:
SANFan wrote:
It's as though T1 and then T2 (as it was called back in the day and is now known as T2E) everything seemed to resemble 'temporary'. And hey, that may have been partly because nobody actually expected the San Diego airport to remain at Lindbergh Field terribly long in the old days -- all eyes and minds were looking elsewhere for the place to build a REAL airport!

And here we are.

bb


When did East Terminal and West Terminal become T1 and T2 respectively, does anyone know?

Maybe next time I access my Port Logs (the monthly SDIA flight schedules listing that was published for years back in the '70s and '80s) I can find out when they started calling the various terminals what.

When they did open what is now T2E, in July 1979, I really don't remember if it was referred to as the West Terminal or Terminal 2. But yes, it was pretty minimal -- narrow, claustrophobic and with few seats or holding areas for the gates.

But remember, the big highlight of that terminal was the new, much-expanded Int'l Arrivals facility which was opened (or expanded) in March 2001 just in time for BA's brand new and first ever nonstop 777 service to/from Gatwick! Prior to that time, WA to Mexico City and an occasional AM route were about it for int'l flights at SAN! (And customs was originally a very small and cramped area down at Gate 1 at the far east end of T1!)

bb
Last edited by SANFan on Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:39 pm

They waited 16 years to build the second half of Terminal 2 West. That should have been built at the same time. What were the international gates in the 1980s?
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:51 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
They waited 16 years to build the second half of Terminal 2 West. That should have been built at the same time.

With the east terminal and the west offering 32 gates total, SAN didn't need more gates until the mid-'90s... and in 1998, 9 gates to the west of T2(E) were added. THEN we definitely had a T1, T2W and a T2E!

bb
 
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:56 pm

Tugger wrote:
Actually a big part of the problem when these were done was the airport was part of the Port Authority. The airport was their cash cow and so they would go on the cheap with builds and remodels as they didn't want to waste the cash they wanted to spend elsewhere. This is why the Port is trying like crazy to get the airport back under their control. They want the money. And if they succeed I bet things will change back to how it was: Crappy terminals designed for the lowest price with maximum cash extraction in mind.

Tugg

Good point Tugg'.

Maybe if the Port District would spend more effort and money getting our cruise industry put back together, they'd have another cash cow of their own. What a shame...

bb
 
AAtakeMeAway
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:05 pm

SANFan wrote:
Maybe next time I access my Port Logs (the monthly SDIA flight schedules listing that was published for years back in the '70s and '80s) I can find out when they started calling the various terminals what.

When they did open what is now T2E, in July 1979, I really don't remember if it was referred to as the West Terminal or Terminal 2. But yes, it was pretty minimal -- narrow, claustrophobic and with few seats or holding areas for the gates.



OMG are you referring to the "Flight Times and News of the Port"?! I used to collect those... God I wish I would have saved them.
It was definitely "West Terminal" prior to the expansion. I'm just curious if the renaming of the terminals happened when the expansion ("T2W") happened or some other time.
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:31 am

AAtakeMeAway wrote:
SANFan wrote:
Maybe next time I access my Port Logs (the monthly SDIA flight schedules listing that was published for years back in the '70s and '80s) I can find out when they started calling the various terminals what.

When they did open what is now T2E, in July 1979, I really don't remember if it was referred to as the West Terminal or Terminal 2. But yes, it was pretty minimal -- narrow, claustrophobic and with few seats or holding areas for the gates.


OMG are you referring to the "Flight Times and News of the Port"?! I used to collect those... God I wish I would have saved them.
It was definitely "West Terminal" prior to the expansion. I'm just curious if the renaming of the terminals happened when the expansion ("T2W") happened or some other time.

Yep, AA', that's them! In the early days they were known as the "Port Logs" and I continue to refer to them that way; the first ones were a big piece of white paper folded in quarters and printed in brown text. (They may have also included the passenger ship schedules for the month in those days; after all, it was a publication of the Port of SD.) As the flight offerings grew, they became multi-page booklets (with staples!) Eventually they did become the "Flight Times" and got a bit bigger -- and thicker -- with glossy covers. I think, thank goodness, I have pretty much all of them...

They contained mistakes and omissions. They were created AFAIK by Port employees and they did give a good feel for which cx offered what flights from (and to) SDIA.

bb
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:06 pm

SANFan wrote:
AAtakeMeAway wrote:
SANFan wrote:
Maybe next time I access my Port Logs (the monthly SDIA flight schedules listing that was published for years back in the '70s and '80s) I can find out when they started calling the various terminals what.

When they did open what is now T2E, in July 1979, I really don't remember if it was referred to as the West Terminal or Terminal 2. But yes, it was pretty minimal -- narrow, claustrophobic and with few seats or holding areas for the gates.


OMG are you referring to the "Flight Times and News of the Port"?! I used to collect those... God I wish I would have saved them.
It was definitely "West Terminal" prior to the expansion. I'm just curious if the renaming of the terminals happened when the expansion ("T2W") happened or some other time.

Yep, AA', that's them! In the early days they were known as the "Port Logs" and I continue to refer to them that way; the first ones were a big piece of white paper folded in quarters and printed in brown text. (They may have also included the passenger ship schedules for the month in those days; after all, it was a publication of the Port of SD.) As the flight offerings grew, they became multi-page booklets (with staples!) Eventually they did become the "Flight Times" and got a bit bigger -- and thicker -- with glossy covers. I think, thank goodness, I have pretty much all of them...

They contained mistakes and omissions. They were created AFAIK by Port employees and they did give a good feel for which cx offered what flights from (and to) SDIA.

bb


Oh, the things lost to history and my many moves...

In the late 1990's, I was still living in Bakersfield, but wanted to get a teaching job in San Diego. That was a lot tougher thing to do at that time, as San Diego State alone put out more new teachers in one year than all the districts combined needed! But in the fall of 1998, during the "Class Size Reduction Program", a multitude of openings came up, and I finagled a site-to-be-determined contract out of the district of my choice, and the rest is history!

But during my many visits to San Diego in the 1990's, I learned the layout of the city to be prepared for that eventual day when I would count myself as a resident. And of course, I would be living in a place with a REAL airport, so I needed to see what the terminals here were like. I also wanted to see what printed flight schedules were available here, as well as see if there was a definitive list of who flew where.

There was!! It was SO cool seeing the printed "Flight Times" - and I just scoured my files to see if I still have one, but alas, no. They've disappeared. I had hoped to scan one in and show it off, but drat the luck.

Thanks for the reminder and stroll down memory lane!
 
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:33 pm

I picked up my first "San Diego International Airport Flight Schedule" starting May 1967 when I flew to Germany for the summer and resumed the practise on a monthly basis from Oct 1967 to sometime in the late 1990's and still have that collection safely tucked away. I even wrote to every airport manger in the country to have them send their's but that collection has since dissapeared.
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blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:18 am

Does anybody remember what gate TWA was using back in 1985? I want to know which gate flight 847 would have used had it not been hijacked.

Alaska is still parking some planes at the Commuter Terminal. Would it help relieve congestion at Terminal 2 if Alaska boarded some flights at the Commuter Terminal using airstairs?
 
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:30 am

Was checking the Edelweiss timetable earlier and it appears that they will be returning in 2020, however, the flights will be starting in late June.
https://www.flyedelweiss.com/en/fly/fli ... diego.aspx
 
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:59 am

blacksoviet wrote:
Does anybody remember what gate TWA was using back in 1985? I want to know which gate flight 847 would have used had it not been hijacked.

Alaska is still parking some planes at the Commuter Terminal. Would it help relieve congestion at Terminal 2 if Alaska boarded some flights at the Commuter Terminal using airstairs?


Probably Terminal 1, some OAG guides from the 80s have them in gates 8, 9, 10. An OAG guide from Feb 1985 only has TW flights to MCI, STL, LAX but no gate information.

A search of the database doesn't show any shots of TW at the gates except one


Also, it wouldn't be feasible to board flights at the old Commuter terminal since the building has been decommissioned as a terminal. Alaska has just made a big move from T1 to T2 and trying to split operations across two buildings doesn't seem feasible.
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:13 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
They waited 16 years to build the second half of Terminal 2 West. That should have been built at the same time. What were the international gates in the 1980s?


Perhaps we should segway into capacity limits on the runway. If you can remember prior to 2006 the Airport Authority was insistent that constrained operations would begin at 260,000 operations per year (which could be reached as early as 2016) and no further growth would be possible at 300,000 operations. The limitations of the single runway meant that rebuilding the terminal would only be temporary as a second runway at the current location was impossible without buying and demolishing thousand homes and businesses.

The most obvious things have already been done, the elimination of local civil and military operations, the itinerant general aviation, civil and military operations have been reduced, and the average carrier plane size has increased.

But operations are headed back up towards 260,000

Year SAN operations (total)
1990 212,553
1991 206,487
1992 213,983
1993 208,506
1994 221,044
1995 245,280 maximum
1996 224,466
1997 224,488 Southwest added the Boeing 737-700 to its fleet on December 17, 1997 (143 seats)
1998 223,257
1999 222,356
2000 207,916
2001 206,848
2002 206,605
2003 204,713
2004 215,211
2005 229,192
2006 230,798 vote on new SAN airport, voters reject proposal to try and force military to share Miramar
2007 237,574 four years of increases in total operations comes to an end
2008 228,167
2009 199,612
2010 190,137
2011 185,143 minimum
2012 187,326 Southwest added the Boeing 737-800 to its fleet on April 11, 2012
2013 187,981
2014 191,765
2015 193,712
2016 196,935
2017 209,563
2018 225,058
Last edited by PacoMartin on Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:28 pm

How did 1995 spike to 245,000 when other years around it averaged in the 220,000's? I don't remember that year being that extraordinary. What I find interesting is that last year there were more flights, more non-stops, more pax then ever but it had the same number of operations as the 1990's. There must have been a lot more turboprops to LAX than I thought. Thanks for the info.
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:28 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
Does anybody remember what gate TWA was using back in 1985? I want to know which gate flight 847 would have used had it not been hijacked.


Apparently, TWA's one and only gate at SAN was gate 8, at least in 1991.

http://www.departedflights.com/SAN1091.html

Alaska is still parking some planes at the Commuter Terminal. Would it help relieve congestion at Terminal 2 if Alaska boarded some flights at the Commuter Terminal using airstairs?


The Commuter Terminal is closed forever, and it is too far away from Terminal One to function as an overflow.
 
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:48 pm

Coronado990 wrote:
How did 1995 spike to 245,000 when other years around it averaged in the 220,000's? I don't remember that year being that extraordinary. What I find interesting is that last year there were more flights, more non-stops, more pax then ever but it had the same number of operations as the 1990's. There must have been a lot more turboprops to LAX than I thought. Thanks for the info.


I had a massive beef with the campaign to convince people that the runway was going to be dangerously overloaded if they didn't vote for a new airport. Around 1995 there was a huge increase in turboprops, but runway operations are also affected by general aviation and civil and military ops.

At the same time this campaign was going on they were lobbying to create a secondary fixed base operator so there was competition in servicing private jets. I said how can you argue that the single runway is severely overloaded and at the same time try to make it easier for private jets so they don't have to use an executive airport.

The studies that the Authority paid millions of dollars for at the time said that by the year 2030 load factors on civil carriers would never go above an average of 100 occupied seats out of 130 total seats. That proves my point that analysts are often no better than Tijuana street prostitutes, they are just more expensive. Needless to say the airport reached that level a few years after the vote failed.

For 2019 the airport averages 120 occupied seats out of 147.8 total seats per operation. Remember that a Southwest B737-700 has 143 seats and a Southwest B737-800 has 175 seats (as does a MAX-8).

Las Vegas, in contrast, has one of the highest load factors in the country and one of the biggest average size jets (by number of seats). Of course, JFK and LAX have the most widebodies as they are the preferred airports for foreign routes. I know they secured the property for a secondary airport at Ivanpah south of Las Vegas back in the year 2000 because government owned desert is not very expensive.
 
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:37 pm

Coronado990 wrote:
I'm surprised COPA hasn't started service to TIJ to initially introduce service to the region. TIJ is probably less expensive to operate out of and being Latin America, they share a similar culture and the same language. Scheduling wise, they could do a quick 60 minute midnight turn around, something that cannot be done at SAN because of the curfew. Eventually, they should serve both SAN & TIJ. That's a combined metro area of 5 million people that is missing from their route map. Seems strange they haven't jumped on it yet.


TJ has two international routes, and both exist because MEX is so high and dry that the jets can't lift off with a full fuel load and need to refuel before flying to Asia.
Aeroméxico - Shanghai–Pudong
Hainan Airlines - Beijing–Capital

Volaris cited the cross-border bridge (CBX) as a key reason for its decision to begin flights in November 2017 from Tijuana to Guatemala City and San Salvador, however both these flights have now been cancelled. As I understand it, the CBX is primarily used by Mexican Americans living in San Diego county, and has failed to attract a large number of non-Latinos looking for Mexican vacations, or looking for inexpensive international flights.

At the time when CBX was built, there were no nonstops from San Diego to Asia. Now, of course, there is Japan Airlines from SAN to Tokyo–Narita. But I think that most San Diegans are still transferring at LAX or SFO when flying to China. They may be more interested in frequent flyer miles, as they do are less likely to have membership in Aeroméxico or Hainan Airlines. I would think crossing the CBX is much easier than transferring at LAX.

I think you overestimate the value of a common language. Albuquerque International Sunport, handling 5,467,693 passengers in 2018, only recently got it's first flights to Mexico on Volaris to Chihuahua and Guadalajara. Albuquerque is roughly 50% Latino.
 
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:47 am

Coronado990 wrote:
There must have been a lot more turboprops to LAX than I thought.


There certainly more SAN-LAX frequencies then there are now. When I started flying the route in 1998, there were four carriers in the market:
  • American Eagle Saab 340
  • SkyWest/Delta Connection EMB-120
  • SkyWest/United Express EMB-120
  • Trans States/US Airways Express Jetstream 32

Smaller planes and multiple competing airlines meant lots of frequencies. Nowadays, it's mostly E-175s, bigger planes and the frequencies are less.
 
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:08 am

hawaiian717 wrote:
Coronado990 wrote:
There must have been a lot more turboprops to LAX than I thought.


There certainly more SAN-LAX frequencies then there are now. When I started flying the route in 1998, there were four carriers in the market:
  • American Eagle Saab 340
  • SkyWest/Delta Connection EMB-120
  • SkyWest/United Express EMB-120
  • Trans States/US Airways Express Jetstream 32

Smaller planes and multiple competing airlines meant lots of frequencies. Nowadays, it's mostly E-175s, bigger planes and the frequencies are less.

Did the Jetstream 32 with its pressurized cabin offer more passenger comfort than the Embraer or the Saab?
 
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:32 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
hawaiian717 wrote:
Coronado990 wrote:
There must have been a lot more turboprops to LAX than I thought.


There certainly more SAN-LAX frequencies then there are now. When I started flying the route in 1998, there were four carriers in the market:
  • American Eagle Saab 340
  • SkyWest/Delta Connection EMB-120
  • SkyWest/United Express EMB-120
  • Trans States/US Airways Express Jetstream 32

Smaller planes and multiple competing airlines meant lots of frequencies. Nowadays, it's mostly E-175s, bigger planes and the frequencies are less.

Did the Jetstream 32 with its pressurized cabin offer more passenger comfort than the Embraer or the Saab?


The Embraers were referred to as "the bumblebees" because of their vibrations. I flew many of them, as well as many SF340's, and they were both about equal - one hour was the approximate comfort level passengers had before their fillings started to rattle out.

I only flew one Jetstream J31, BFL-LAX - same as the others: good for short flights, but hopefully no longer.
 
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DL717
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:54 pm

PacoMartin wrote:
Coronado990 wrote:
How did 1995 spike to 245,000 when other years around it averaged in the 220,000's? I don't remember that year being that extraordinary. What I find interesting is that last year there were more flights, more non-stops, more pax then ever but it had the same number of operations as the 1990's. There must have been a lot more turboprops to LAX than I thought. Thanks for the info.


I had a massive beef with the campaign to convince people that the runway was going to be dangerously overloaded if they didn't vote for a new airport. Around 1995 there was a huge increase in turboprops, but runway operations are also affected by general aviation and civil and military ops.

At the same time this campaign was going on they were lobbying to create a secondary fixed base operator so there was competition in servicing private jets. I said how can you argue that the single runway is severely overloaded and at the same time try to make it easier for private jets so they don't have to use an executive airport.

The studies that the Authority paid millions of dollars for at the time said that by the year 2030 load factors on civil carriers would never go above an average of 100 occupied seats out of 130 total seats. That proves my point that analysts are often no better than Tijuana street prostitutes, they are just more expensive. Needless to say the airport reached that level a few years after the vote failed.

For 2019 the airport averages 120 occupied seats out of 147.8 total seats per operation. Remember that a Southwest B737-700 has 143 seats and a Southwest B737-800 has 175 seats (as does a MAX-8).

Las Vegas, in contrast, has one of the highest load factors in the country and one of the biggest average size jets (by number of seats). Of course, JFK and LAX have the most widebodies as they are the preferred airports for foreign routes. I know they secured the property for a secondary airport at Ivanpah south of Las Vegas back in the year 2000 because government owned desert is not very expensive.


Couple issues with this “Paco” as I’ve followed the issue for many years:

1. A capacity constrained airport is not unsafe. It simply gets metered during peak periods. Do your consider LGA and DCA unsafe? Because no one working in the industry does. They are (SAN) proposing a new terminal that will actually enhance efficient flow, and as it be, provide gates where you can sit during delay rather than out on a ramp somewhere or have ramp boarding. The later such a wonderful experience.

2. You may have had a beef with their forecast and Tijuana Hookers apparently, but their forecast was spot on for 2030 (actually they underestimated a bit) regardless the estimated seat capacity per departure, making your “beef” opinion on the matter pretty much irrelevant.

It was people like you that claimed international service wasn’t viable either. Wrong. Your opposition in the past, also wrong. Just wrong, wrong, wrong. Then you come in here pontificating?

LOL

Signed,

In defense of SAN from the nay sayers and the ignorant statements of the uninformed.

No, I’m not calling you ignorant, but there have been people that have made colossally ignorant statements about that airport over the years. That and San Diego’s need in general for a new airport. People will figure out when it costs a small fortune to fly out of there as seat supply evaporates.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
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hawaiian717
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:21 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
Did the Jetstream 32 with its pressurized cabin offer more passenger comfort than the Embraer or the Saab?


Both the EMB-120 and Saab 340 were pressured too. The EMB-110 was not but I don't know if those ever served the SAN-LAX route.

The Jetstream 32 was fine, pretty similar in overall comfort. No flight attendant on board though, so no drink/snack service which SkyWest and Eagle did in those days.
 
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Coronado990
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:50 pm

hawaiian717 wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
Did the Jetstream 32 with its pressurized cabin offer more passenger comfort than the Embraer or the Saab?


Both the EMB-120 and Saab 340 were pressured too. The EMB-110 was not but I don't know if those ever served the SAN-LAX route.

The Jetstream 32 was fine, pretty similar in overall comfort. No flight attendant on board though, so no drink/snack service which SkyWest and Eagle did in those days.



Didn't Imperial fly the EMB-110's?
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SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:04 pm

Coronado990 wrote:

Didn't Imperial fly the EMB-110's?


They most certainly did. I think they called them EMB-110 Bandeirantes. For a short while, United Express flew them here also. Unpressurized, no Flight attendants, and no lavatories.
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blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:18 am

Does United Express still serve Imperial?
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:28 am

blacksoviet wrote:
Does United Express still serve Imperial?

There's a great thing called the internet that would probably answer that question in seconds.

bb
 
blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:42 am

PacoMartin wrote:
Coronado990 wrote:
I'm surprised COPA hasn't started service to TIJ to initially introduce service to the region. TIJ is probably less expensive to operate out of and being Latin America, they share a similar culture and the same language. Scheduling wise, they could do a quick 60 minute midnight turn around, something that cannot be done at SAN because of the curfew. Eventually, they should serve both SAN & TIJ. That's a combined metro area of 5 million people that is missing from their route map. Seems strange they haven't jumped on it yet.


TJ has two international routes, and both exist because MEX is so high and dry that the jets can't lift off with a full fuel load and need to refuel before flying to Asia.
Aeroméxico - Shanghai–Pudong
Hainan Airlines - Beijing–Capital

Volaris cited the cross-border bridge (CBX) as a key reason for its decision to begin flights in November 2017 from Tijuana to Guatemala City and San Salvador, however both these flights have now been cancelled. As I understand it, the CBX is primarily used by Mexican Americans living in San Diego county, and has failed to attract a large number of non-Latinos looking for Mexican vacations, or looking for inexpensive international flights.

At the time when CBX was built, there were no nonstops from San Diego to Asia. Now, of course, there is Japan Airlines from SAN to Tokyo–Narita. But I think that most San Diegans are still transferring at LAX or SFO when flying to China. They may be more interested in frequent flyer miles, as they do are less likely to have membership in Aeroméxico or Hainan Airlines. I would think crossing the CBX is much easier than transferring at LAX.

I think you overestimate the value of a common language. Albuquerque International Sunport, handling 5,467,693 passengers in 2018, only recently got it's first flights to Mexico on Volaris to Chihuahua and Guadalajara. Albuquerque is roughly 50% Latino.

If Aeromexico orders the 777-8 will they be able to bypass the fuel stop in Tijuana?
 
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:06 pm

PacoMartin wrote:
Coronado990 wrote:
I'm surprised COPA hasn't started service to TIJ to initially introduce service to the region. TIJ is probably less expensive to operate out of and being Latin America, they share a similar culture and the same language. Scheduling wise, they could do a quick 60 minute midnight turn around, something that cannot be done at SAN because of the curfew. Eventually, they should serve both SAN & TIJ. That's a combined metro area of 5 million people that is missing from their route map. Seems strange they haven't jumped on it yet.


TJ has two international routes, and both exist because MEX is so high and dry that the jets can't lift off with a full fuel load and need to refuel before flying to Asia.
Aeroméxico - Shanghai–Pudong
Hainan Airlines - Beijing–Capital

Volaris cited the cross-border bridge (CBX) as a key reason for its decision to begin flights in November 2017 from Tijuana to Guatemala City and San Salvador, however both these flights have now been cancelled. As I understand it, the CBX is primarily used by Mexican Americans living in San Diego county, and has failed to attract a large number of non-Latinos looking for Mexican vacations, or looking for inexpensive international flights.

At the time when CBX was built, there were no nonstops from San Diego to Asia. Now, of course, there is Japan Airlines from SAN to Tokyo–Narita. But I think that most San Diegans are still transferring at LAX or SFO when flying to China. They may be more interested in frequent flyer miles, as they do are less likely to have membership in Aeroméxico or Hainan Airlines. I would think crossing the CBX is much easier than transferring at LAX.

I think you overestimate the value of a common language. Albuquerque International Sunport, handling 5,467,693 passengers in 2018, only recently got it's first flights to Mexico on Volaris to Chihuahua and Guadalajara. Albuquerque is roughly 50% Latino.


Upon completion of CBX, I had hoped that Copa Panama would look at TIJ as an alternative to SAN, given that it would probably generate the most traffic on a red-eye to PTY. Since TIJ is unrestricted for departures, this would have allowed the airline to capture the San Diego region's passengers while generating maximum yield. However, this never materialized nor was it ever mentioned anywhere.

I am hopeful that CM can obtain a time slot of their choice for an international arrival into SAN. The issue is not a conflict with any other airline's arrival time, obviously; it's just a matter of getting the facilities to stay open for this additional flight. That can always be negotiated.
 
flyfresno
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:32 pm

SANFan wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
Does United Express still serve Imperial?

There's a great thing called the internet that would probably answer that question in seconds.

bb


Isn’t this technically the internet? :lol:
 
SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:20 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
PacoMartin wrote:
Coronado990 wrote:
I'm surprised COPA hasn't started service to TIJ to initially introduce service to the region. TIJ is probably less expensive to operate out of and being Latin America, they share a similar culture and the same language. Scheduling wise, they could do a quick 60 minute midnight turn around, something that cannot be done at SAN because of the curfew. Eventually, they should serve both SAN & TIJ. That's a combined metro area of 5 million people that is missing from their route map. Seems strange they haven't jumped on it yet.


TJ has two international routes, and both exist because MEX is so high and dry that the jets can't lift off with a full fuel load and need to refuel before flying to Asia.
Aeroméxico - Shanghai–Pudong
Hainan Airlines - Beijing–Capital

Volaris cited the cross-border bridge (CBX) as a key reason for its decision to begin flights in November 2017 from Tijuana to Guatemala City and San Salvador, however both these flights have now been cancelled. As I understand it, the CBX is primarily used by Mexican Americans living in San Diego county, and has failed to attract a large number of non-Latinos looking for Mexican vacations, or looking for inexpensive international flights.

At the time when CBX was built, there were no nonstops from San Diego to Asia. Now, of course, there is Japan Airlines from SAN to Tokyo–Narita. But I think that most San Diegans are still transferring at LAX or SFO when flying to China. They may be more interested in frequent flyer miles, as they do are less likely to have membership in Aeroméxico or Hainan Airlines. I would think crossing the CBX is much easier than transferring at LAX.

I think you overestimate the value of a common language. Albuquerque International Sunport, handling 5,467,693 passengers in 2018, only recently got it's first flights to Mexico on Volaris to Chihuahua and Guadalajara. Albuquerque is roughly 50% Latino.


Upon completion of CBX, I had hoped that Copa Panama would look at TIJ as an alternative to SAN, given that it would probably generate the most traffic on a red-eye to PTY. Since TIJ is unrestricted for departures, this would have allowed the airline to capture the San Diego region's passengers while generating maximum yield. However, this never materialized nor was it ever mentioned anywhere.
.


I think one of main reasons why we haven't heard anything else from COPA is because of the 737 MAX groundings. About a year ago, COPA released routes that would be covered by the 737 MAX planes, which would likely have freed up existing planes to start SAN or new service elsewhere.
PSA Gives you a lift!
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:40 pm

SANMAN66 wrote:
I think one of main reasons why we haven't heard anything else from COPA is because of the 737 MAX groundings. About a year ago, COPA released routes that would be covered by the 737 MAX planes, which would likely have freed up existing planes to start SAN or new service elsewhere.


Yeah, it's really beginning to hit me how much expansion at SAN can't really happen anymore until the MAX gets back in the air. I just read the OAG updates eniliria posts weekly, and nothing for SAN except a UA trimming ORD-SAN from x5 to x4.

Ironic, given how happy I have been to see BFL-DFW go from x1 to x2 fairly soon - that doesn't happen unless yields are more than just "good"! A significant victory for America's most pulled-out-from airport! But expansion anywhere isn't going to happen at most U.S. airports until the MAX is back flying.
 
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LindyFlight
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:32 pm

WestJet's ultra low-cost carrier Swoop is starting service from Abbotsford (YXX) and Edmonton (YEG) to San Diego beginning October 4th.
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 78845.html
 
Dominion301
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:32 pm

LindyFlight wrote:
WestJet's ultra low-cost carrier Swoop is starting service from Abbotsford (YXX) and Edmonton (YEG) to San Diego beginning October 4th.
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 78845.html


Hopefully these don't get cancelled before they launch as happened with OAK.
 
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gollumSD
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:35 pm

I don't think they will, I checked out the website and SD is all over the place in their advertising campaign, in fact the pretty SD skyline is all you see when you open the website.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:37 pm

LindyFlight wrote:
WestJet's ultra low-cost carrier Swoop is starting service from Abbotsford (YXX) and Edmonton (YEG) to San Diego beginning October 4th.
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 78845.html

Nice catch Lindy'. I just posted on the dedicated thread of the news.

The Swoop route map shows the 2 flights as year-round although their skeds are only open thru late April of 2020. Both routes will fly on the same 3 days of the week, Tu, Fr and Su but I haven't yet compared the sked to WS whom I assume will be handling the new service for Swoop. Maybe YYC will see service on the same 3 days this winter. (YVR is still only summer-seasonal with WS.)

I didn't know if we'd see a new airline arrive in SAN in 2019. This strikes me as a nice add and gets our Canadian portfolio up to 5 destinations! Excellent!

bb

PS: I just now realized that SAN is the first city in CA on Swoop's route map! (Take THAT LA and San Fran!)
Last edited by SANFan on Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:39 pm

Only I would think about this, I'm sure...

Edmonton, AB, will be SAN's most northerly destination, at 53.3 degrees north latitude. This beats out a near-tie between LHR (51.4 degrees N) and YYC (51.1 degrees N) for the previous title holder.

Both east (ZRH) and west (NRT) are quite easy to figure out; however, the title for southernmost might eventually change as well: the current southernmost airport served from SAN is Kona, Hawai'i (KOA), at 19.736 degrees north latitude, measured from an approximate midpoint of the airport. If service begins from Hilo, Hawai'i (ITO), it will take the title away at a latitude of 19.715 degrees north.
 
ibthebigd
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:44 pm

Has SAN ever had a flight to ANC?

if not what is the O/D

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:47 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Only I would think about this, I'm sure...

Edmonton, AB, will be SAN's most northerly destination, at 53.3 degrees north latitude. This beats out a near-tie between LHR (51.4 degrees N) and YYC (51.1 degrees N) for the previous title holder.

Both east (ZRH) and west (NRT) are quite easy to figure out; however, the title for southernmost might eventually change as well: the current southernmost airport served from SAN is Kona, Hawai'i (KOA), at 19.736 degrees north latitude, measured from an approximate midpoint of the airport. If service begins from Hilo, Hawai'i (ITO), it will take the title away at a latitude of 19.715 degrees north.

Yeah, those Edmontonians sure might like a trip to SAN in January, eh? Oh and I just saw a figure on AS's website that SAN has over 100 breweries so those from Edmonton who like a cold brewski should be very happy here! (Link: https://blog.alaskaair.com/destinations ... er-lovers/ )

bb
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:05 am

ibthebigd wrote:
Has SAN ever had a flight to ANC?

if not what is the O/D

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


California-ANC non-stops have, historically, been very seasonal. Given that PDX and more-so SEA have so many connections to Alaska, the majority of service has been mostly one-stops.

To my knowledge, ANC has never had a non-stop to SAN, but they have had SFO and LAX flights.

No idea about the O&D.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:06 pm

So this was in my e-mail inbox this morning from Kimberly Becker at san.org:

Dear Friends,

I’m writing to you today to share some exciting news! Below is a slightly abridged version of our remarks made at a press conference this morning.

The Airport Authority has reached a new 10-year agreement with its airline partners that will give the Airport Authority the ability to contribute over a half-billion dollars to help reduce traffic congestion and make it easier for everyone to access San Diego International Airport.

The agreement allows us to effectively partner with other regional agencies to improve access to the airport through transportation and transit projects. The Airport Authority believes a strong connection to the region’s transportation system is extremely important for our passengers. We recognize that planning and paying for transportation improvements is a complex process requiring collaboration and coordination among numerous public agencies.

We know that no single agency can tackle this issue alone. We are pleased and proud to be working with our regional partners, including SANDAG, the City of San Diego, Port of San Diego, the Military, Caltrans and MTS, on potential transportation and transit connection improvements to the airport. In that regard, over the last several months, we’ve made great strides towards collaboration with our regional partners, as well as the airlines that fly out of San Diego International Airport.

I’ll talk more about the details regarding the half-billion-dollar investment in just a minute. But first I want to stress that airline pre-approval for spending of this nature and magnitude demonstrates our airline partners’ understanding of the importance of these transportation and transit enhancements to the community. It also demonstrates their commitment to the entire region.

This 10-year agreement defines the relationship between the Airport Authority and our partner airlines. It covers rights and obligations of the parties as well as rates and charges the airlines pay to use the airport’s facilities. The airlines are our tenants and partners, and are a major source of income for the airport. The Airport Authority does not levy taxes. Airport revenue comes from rates and fees charged to airport tenants; from fees charged to businesses that use the airport property; and a small amount from federal grants.

This agreement addresses the unprecedented air passenger growth that has flowed through San Diego International Airport in the past five years, and the significant air passenger growth that is forecasted to continue. It’s important to note that air passenger growth will occur regardless of whether Terminal 1 is replaced. It is somewhat counter-intuitive, but a terminal replacement does not create more capacity for aircraft operations.

We have just one runway. The FAA establishes the operating requirement for traffic in the skies and with just one runway there are limitations to the amount of traffic the runway can accept.

To be clear, the terminal does not create additional capacity. A new terminal allows visitors to and from San Diego to have the kind of customer experience we want for them.

The funding made available through the new agreement with the airlines will help fund transportation and transit solutions that are ultimately agreed upon with our regional partners. However, the ADP must proceed in order for those contributions to be used towards infrastructure.

While the specific improvements are being studied and not yet approved, the agreement ensures there will be substantial funding for those improvements should the Airport Authority and partner agencies decide to go forward with them. The contribution of over a half-billion dollars could help fund the following projects if approved:

o $350 million for on- and potential off-airport public transportation projects in conjunction with regional partner agencies. We’ve all agreed that no one can do this alone, so this agreement allows the Airport Authority to contribute up to this amount when third-parties - such as regional partner agencies - contribute funds for off-airport transportation and transit projects.

o As you are aware, space for a transit station is included in the current Airport Development Plan. This funding could also help pay for a new transit station on airport property that could connect to the regional system.

o An additional $165 million – funded 100 percent by the Airport Authority and the Airlines - could be used for multimodal mobility corridor improvements also contemplated in the Airport Development Plan and, if approved, might include an inbound, on-airport access roadway adjacent to Harbor Drive and a bicycle path.

o If approved, the roadway would connect Laurel Street directly to the airport, with no traffic lights. This would remove an estimated 45,000 cars per day from Harbor Drive. It also includes a right-of-way for future outbound lanes.

o Additionally, the multimodal mobility corridor improvements could free up space on Harbor Drive for potential Rapid Bus or light rail transit opportunities that could serve not only the airport, but also Harbor Island redevelopment projects being considered by the Port of San Diego.

The Airport Development Plan includes projects that provide better connections for transit users, bicyclists and pedestrians, including:

o New all-electric shuttle service to and from the Old Town Transit Center

o Upgraded transit amenities at the new Terminal 1 curbfront, such as bus shelters, info kiosks, and electronic next-arrival signs

o A new multi-use walking and biking path along North Harbor Drive

When needed, the Airport Authority will seek FAA approval for possible off-airport transportation and transit projects, similar to previous and current off-airport projects undertaken by the Airport Authority to improve Harbor Drive and Sassafras Street.

With this new agreement, we have a platform to move forward on two fronts: One, to provide a first-class passenger experience in the terminals, including a new Terminal 1, and two, an efficient and accessible transportation solution that relieves congestion and makes getting to the airport easier for everyone.

Thank you for your continued support and interest.

Sincerely,

Kimberly J. Becker

President / CEO


Glad they are putting transportation needs at the forefront! Your thoughts?
 
Chugach
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:02 pm

ibthebigd wrote:
Has SAN ever had a flight to ANC?

if not what is the O/D

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Not enough to justify overflying four possible hub connecting points.
 
Chugach
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:09 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
ibthebigd wrote:
Has SAN ever had a flight to ANC?

if not what is the O/D

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


California-ANC non-stops have, historically, been very seasonal. Given that PDX and more-so SEA have so many connections to Alaska, the majority of service has been mostly one-stops.

To my knowledge, ANC has never had a non-stop to SAN, but they have had SFO and LAX flights.

No idea about the O&D.


ANC-LAX is a year-round route on AS, seasonal on AA. DL has done it in the past, and B6 also did LGB-ANC for several years before throwing in the towel on the west coast.

UA runs SFO-ANC in summer and during peak winter travel periods (basically Christmas break and spring break). AS has done SFO-ANC historically, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see it return eventually given their expanded presence at SFO.

There’s also the new SFO-FAI route on UA.
 
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LindyFlight
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:44 am

Looks like there was a breakfast meeting between SAN Authority Board members (Kim Becker and Hampton Brown among them), and Copa Airlines executives back on 6/12/19, as well as a dinner organized by Mr. Brown. Found these details in the meeting materials for the upcoming Authority Board meeting on July 11th.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:55 pm

LindyFlight wrote:
Looks like there was a breakfast meeting between SAN Authority Board members (Kim Becker and Hampton Brown among them), and Copa Airlines executives back on 6/12/19, as well as a dinner organized by Mr. Brown. Found these details in the meeting materials for the upcoming Authority Board meeting on July 11th.


Where's the "Love" button for this? :D

Could it be that there's a deal with FIS to operate later hours for Copa? And has the airline found a work-around for the delays in MAX deliveries?

To most people, they would only see what appears to be yet another 737-800 of United Airlines. To me, however, this will be the most beautiful 738 at SAN ever.

Here's a wild question: What would the chances ever be of U.S. pre-clearance in PTY?
 
ajlombardi2
Posts: 20
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:06 am

Question... UA had the turboprop service for years to LAX from carlsbad, was there ever service to SFO on UA?

I know the history and runway limitations, but I really wish we could get a mainline carrier back at CLD
 
DesertAir
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:48 pm

A while back there were rumores floating around the COPA would start service to TJ but all has been quiet lately. Volaris tried SAN-GDL and MEX service without much success. AM had service to Los Cabos but also discontinued it. Crossing the international boarder adds alot of tax to the flights so it much less expensive to take Mexican destination flights from TJ. TJ as well as Mexicali have large Asian populations, and many Asian owned factories, so the tec stop may also help passenger loads.
 
nicksair
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:18 pm

ajlombardi2 wrote:
Question... UA had the turboprop service for years to LAX from carlsbad, was there ever service to SFO on UA?

I know the history and runway limitations, but I really wish we could get a mainline carrier back at CLD



No service ever to SFO during the time UA/SKW operated it.

I do know Palomar has gone through a Master Plan process and i do recall one of the original components of it was to extend the runway only several hundred feet to allow for RJ's to safely operate in/out of there. I havent heard much since its been finalized if that has stuck or not.

Also, 2nd generation San Diegan here who rarely ever posts on A.net anymore.

Will try and provide my input here on occasion.

-NWR
Nicholas William Reed KSAN/KSFO/KBOS/KPDX
 
Kilgen
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:10 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Here's a wild question: What would the chances ever be of U.S. pre-clearance in PTY?


For now, it would be zero to none. CM's CEO is strongly against it as it would add at least an extra 2 hours for connections, vs the 45 minutes needed currently. Also, for it to happen, they may need to find a secluded area in PTY to put the pre-clearance area (maybe the north pier at the T1?). Until technology allows pre-clearance to be done very quickly, I don't see it in PTY in the short term. Also the biggest beneficiaries would be US based airlines than CM, so I don't see a big push from the Panamanian government to put it in place.
-
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:38 pm

Kilgen wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Here's a wild question: What would the chances ever be of U.S. pre-clearance in PTY?


For now, it would be zero to none. CM's CEO is strongly against it as it would add at least an extra 2 hours for connections, vs the 45 minutes needed currently. Also, for it to happen, they may need to find a secluded area in PTY to put the pre-clearance area (maybe the north pier at the T1?). Until technology allows pre-clearance to be done very quickly, I don't see it in PTY in the short term. Also the biggest beneficiaries would be US based airlines than CM, so I don't see a big push from the Panamanian government to put it in place.
-


All things I didn't know. Thank you for the excellent points!!
 
futuresdpdcop
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:35 pm

Anyone know the reason Gate 2 is closed? I’ve noticed baggage carts and tugs parked over the empty space. Been like that since I parked at gate 1 on 6/23 and also 7/7.
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:18 pm

futuresdpdcop wrote:
Anyone know the reason Gate 2 is closed? I’ve noticed baggage carts and tugs parked over the empty space. Been like that since I parked at gate 1 on 6/23 and also 7/7.

Is the jetway still there, at gate 2? Maybe that has to be replaced.

WN has been using 2-3 gates in T1W for a few months now so maybe they've closed gate 2 (temporarily?) for some rehab work -- maybe the jetway? -- or something else. Also this summer has seen a cut in WN flights due to the MAX grounding so perhaps they ended up with an extended period to do required or desired work.

Perhaps someone in the know will chime in if none of what I said is correct.

bb

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