ajlombardi2
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:59 pm

Hydrahawk wrote:
I was talking to a friend who works at the FBO at CLD, that the runway could be easily extended. El Camino Real, which is the street on the east of the airport, could have a runway built above it. Much the same way Spring Street runs under the main runway at LGB. The land to the east of El Camino Real is empty, contains only approach lights.


it's really too bad -- there were hardly any homes in close proximity (to the east at least) of the airport until the mid 2000s. Now the entire valley east of the runway is pretty dense housing (bressi ranch) - full of people who will oppose any increase in ops at CLD. I don't see anything significant ever happening at this point. This should have been taken care of back in the 90s.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:54 am

Is the runway at CLD long enough for a 737-200?
 
SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:47 am

blacksoviet wrote:
Is the runway at CLD long enough for a 737-200?


No. CLDs runway is not long enough for mainline jets.
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blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:57 am

Would a single-runway international airport at Camp Pendleton be a viable alternative to Lindbergh Field?
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:18 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
Would a single-runway international airport at Camp Pendleton be a viable alternative to Lindbergh Field?

Your question is irrelevant, 'Soviet. If Miramar and North Island -- both beautiful and fully developed airports in perfect locations -- are off the table as far as the military is concerned, what makes you think Pendleton is suddenly up for grabs?

Too bad SAN missed out on the selection of 2 new MUC routes to the US in the latest announcement by LH. I suppose the carrier is still working hard on developing their FRA route to where they would like to see it so another route is unlikely yet.

Speaking of the LH Group, I'm kind of worried about ZRH on Edelweiss and whether it will be back next year; I'd hate to lose an intl carrier at SAN, even if it's a small seasonal one. LH could decide to pull those 2 weekly WK flights as they might consider they are taking potential LH (connecting) customers. Sort of a competing-with-yourself scenario. But then most of the customers that would fly on WK are prolly looking for bargain fares on an LCC or ULCC carrier so they undoubtedly would not fly LH anyway.

I can report that currently, the WK timetable does show SAN service beginning in June 2020 and running at least into August! That would be their 4th season and the first without airport incentives! I call that good news although it's certainly not yet set in concrete either.

What I'd love to see is daily FRA service on LH -- showing increased pax in that market -- with continued seasonal and sub-daily service on Edelwiess

BTW I see on the WK website that today's ZRH-SAN flt is xld (along with yesterday's ZRH-DEN flight) due to a damaged a/c... I wonder how many times that's happened this season... and if that's the real reason the flights are xld?

bb
 
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Coronado990
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:03 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
Would a single-runway international airport at Camp Pendleton be a viable alternative to Lindbergh Field?


Now that Lindbergh has proven that you can fly 787's, 747's, A340's and 777's to other continents from it's sole runway, I don't think it is really necessary. It might be an alternative to CLD if it ever becomes popular enough to outgrow the tiny facility.

Just watched an E175 take-off from DCA (livestream) on RWY 15 which is 5200 feet long. At CLD, we're are not talking about an airport that needs to handle 737's, 320's, 757's or even 380's. With 5 gates, 35-40 regional jet flights a day would be max to the more popular near-by destinations and hubs. In ten years, it just might be too busy for the North County passengers to drive down to SAN just to catch a 60 minute flight. They still might do the drive to catch non-stops to east coast destinations, but by the time you get SD and make your way through to the busy downtown airport, you could have driven half way to SFO, LAS, or PHX.

I don't think the entrentched airlines are eager to have a split operation so they will wait until it is coming apart at the seams before they make a move. They will wait until the NIMBY's are even stronger. I would think it would be a good idea to get it going on a gradual basis to get people used to the idea but what do I know.
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blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:35 pm

SANFan wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
Would a single-runway international airport at Camp Pendleton be a viable alternative to Lindbergh Field?

Your question is irrelevant, 'Soviet. If Miramar and North Island -- both beautiful and fully developed airports in perfect locations -- are off the table as far as the military is concerned, what makes you think Pendleton is suddenly up for grabs?

Too bad SAN missed out on the selection of 2 new MUC routes to the US in the latest announcement by LH. I suppose the carrier is still working hard on developing their FRA route to where they would like to see it so another route is unlikely yet.

Speaking of the LH Group, I'm kind of worried about ZRH on Edelweiss and whether it will be back next year; I'd hate to lose an intl carrier at SAN, even if it's a small seasonal one. LH could decide to pull those 2 weekly WK flights as they might consider they are taking potential LH (connecting) customers. Sort of a competing-with-yourself scenario. But then most of the customers that would fly on WK are prolly looking for bargain fares on an LCC or ULCC carrier so they undoubtedly would not fly LH anyway.

I can report that currently, the WK timetable does show SAN service beginning in June 2020 and running at least into August! That would be their 4th season and the first without airport incentives! I call that good news although it's certainly not yet set in concrete either.

What I'd love to see is daily FRA service on LH -- showing increased pax in that market -- with continued seasonal and sub-daily service on Edelwiess

BTW I see on the WK website that today's ZRH-SAN flt is xld (along with yesterday's ZRH-DEN flight) due to a damaged a/c... I wonder how many times that's happened this season... and if that's the real reason the flights are xld?

bb

Miramar is off the table because the Marines gave up El Toro instead. The Navy would need to find a new aircraft carrier homeport if North Island were to be converted to civilian use. I think Camp Pendleton has a lot of land.
 
SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:36 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
Miramar is off the table because the Marines gave up El Toro instead. The Navy would need to find a new aircraft carrier homeport if North Island were to be converted to civilian use. I think Camp Pendleton has a lot of land.


The Marines nearly had a cow when it was proposed that Miramar could be shared with a civilian airport! (The Air Force does it all the time), The Marines were adamant about not sharing Miramar with a civilian airport. You also have to figure in the NIMBYs living near that area also. If the Marines refuse to share Miramar, then they would never be open to sharing Camp Pendleton either.
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SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:53 pm

SANFan wrote:
I'm kind of worried about ZRH on Edelweiss and whether it will be back next year; I'd hate to lose an intl carrier at SAN, even if it's a small seasonal one. LH could decide to pull those 2 weekly WK flights as they might consider they are taking potential LH (connecting) customers. Sort of a competing-with-yourself scenario. But then most of the customers that would fly on WK are prolly looking for bargain fares on an LCC or ULCC carrier so they undoubtedly would not fly LH anyway.

I can report that currently, the WK timetable does show SAN service beginning in June 2020 and running at least into August! That would be their 4th season and the first without airport incentives! I call that good news although it's certainly not yet set in concrete either.

What I'd love to see is daily FRA service on LH -- showing increased pax in that market -- with continued seasonal and sub-daily service on Edelwiess

BTW I see on the WK website that today's ZRH-SAN flt is xld (along with yesterday's ZRH-DEN flight) due to a damaged a/c... I wonder how many times that's happened this season... and if that's the real reason the flights are xld?
bb

I was wondering, Eurowings just announced seasonal service next year PHX-FRA. I was wondering if SAN could get Eurowings also? Maybe Eurowings might announce SAN if Edelweiss leaves town. Although, Eurowings announcing PHX-FRA may cause Condor to fly the coop! Is Eurowings part of the LH group? Maybe they could do SAN-FRA on LH's two off days?
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blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:06 pm

Has Edelweiss ever flown the A330 to SAN as a sub? Does the A330 even have enough range?
 
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LindyFlight
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:36 am

Speaking of Edelweiss, I've noticed no that there was no flight on Friday (8/9/18), and today (8/13/19). I do know that one of their four A343s suffered damage near the tail at YVR (HB-JMF) recently so that might be why.
 
SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:25 am

blacksoviet wrote:
Has Edelweiss ever flown the A330 to SAN as a sub? Does the A330 even have enough range?


I don't think Edelweiss has ever flown a A330 into SAN (do they even have A330s?) Lufthansa has flown the A330 here on several occasions as a sub. Yes, the A330 has the range.
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Coronado990
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:12 pm

Maybe Swiss will take over the ZRH-SAN route. That would be my hope.
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PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:09 pm

To put all the concepts to rest, the military in San Diego county will NEVER share an inch of space with a civilian airport. It's not even the military that throws a hissy fit, it's the civilians nearby.

As one of the NIMBY's actually described it to me, "you don't want all those planes flying overhead day and night, now, do you? DO YOU?" (yes, those were his words AND tone).

Then I pointed out, "well, what about all that military traffic? That's even louder, lower, and more dangerous - we've had a couple of crashes into homes!"

You could see the cognitive dissonance taking over as his eyes spun around, and his training in how to respond was trying to assert itself: "that's the sound of freedom!"

It was at that point I fully realized that no military land would ever be used for a civilian airport, period. Even if the military considered it, other locals wouldn't let it happen.

C'est la vie.

In regards to the LH group, I think before we worry about Edelweiss Air's return - or not - we should look at their financial situation. If they are having financial difficulties, and profits aren't at the level needed to sustain the airline, then worrying about their return is a moot point. Personally, I'd LOVE to see the two days per week go to either Swiss to ZRH or Lufthansa's new A350 to MUC. Or even daily to FRA. I believe, however, they will look at their numbers carefully before making any long-term decisions.

My two cents.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:11 pm

I would like to see Lufthansa fly the 747-400 to FRA 3x weekly.
 
SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:19 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
I would like to see Lufthansa fly the 747-400 to FRA 3x weekly.


Me too! It would be a magnificent sight having both the BA 744 and an LH 744 serving SAN!
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Coronado990
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:38 pm

It's because of the military that we are where we are today. If the Navy hadn't built out Lindbergh to it's present configuration in 1944-45 with it's sturdy and wide 8700 foot runway where all we had was a 4000 ish foot runway barely big enough for Dc-3's, then the city would have certainly bought Miramar in the 1950's (I think it was for sale for a $1.00).

The city did take over Brown Field from the military and that's what they got to work with as a reliever today so they should use it. I've seen 727's do touch-and-go back in the PSA day's. I've seen Concorde there during the 1988 air show and, more recently, I've seen cargo jets fly in and out on a not-so-regular basis. Seems to me it would be a cheap to operate out of and maybe appeal to the handful of ULCC airlines. Much like what BLI does for Vancouver, the proximity to Tijuana and offering cheap flights without all those nasty user fees would help boost those numbers. The airport is close to the Otay Mesa boarder crossing and it could even tie in with the CBX. Is there at least 1 million passengers per year travelling from the Tijuana region and using SAN?. Maybe not, but I bet there are more then a few. And it will only grow in the future at an airport that really can't handle it. The next ten years will be interesting.
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SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:34 pm

Coronado990 wrote:
It's because of the military that we are where we are today. If the Navy hadn't built out Lindbergh to it's present configuration in 1944-45 with it's sturdy and wide 8700 foot runway where all we had was a 4000 ish foot runway barely big enough for Dc-3's, then the city would have certainly bought Miramar in the 1950's (I think it was for sale for a $1.00).

The city did take over Brown Field from the military and that's what they got to work with as a reliever today so they should use it. I've seen 727's do touch-and-go back in the PSA day's. I've seen Concorde there during the 1988 air show and, more recently, I've seen cargo jets fly in and out on a not-so-regular basis. Seems to me it would be a cheap to operate out of and maybe appeal to the handful of ULCC airlines. Much like what BLI does for Vancouver, the proximity to Tijuana and offering cheap flights without all those nasty user fees would help boost those numbers. The airport is close to the Otay Mesa boarder crossing and it could even tie in with the CBX. Is there at least 1 million passengers per year travelling from the Tijuana region and using SAN?. Maybe not, but I bet there are more then a few. And it will only grow in the future at an airport that really can't handle it. The next ten years will be interesting.


The major underlying problem is that the local San Diego govt is too shortsighted. As for an airport at Brown Field, it could possibly work if they built a North/South runway used mostly for landings. Takeoffs on that runway would interfere with operations with TIJ. All takeoffs would be
to the West. But the other problem with this
idea, is how to appease the NIMBYs?
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blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:41 pm

What if the Navy moved the aircraft carriers to Washington and Hawaii? North Island could be a huge airport and could become the main airport for San Diego. The bridge could easily handle all the traffic and the ferry could be reintroduced from Downtown.

Intercontinental flights should benefit because North Island (NZY) doesn't have the terrain issues that SAN has. The widebodies should be able to take off with more fuel and more bags. You could even see service to Australia.
 
SANAV8R
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:09 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
What if the Navy moved the aircraft carriers to Washington and Hawaii? North Island could be a huge airport and could become the main airport for San Diego. The bridge could easily handle all the traffic and the ferry could be reintroduced from Downtown.

Intercontinental flights should benefit because North Island (NZY) doesn't have the terrain issues that SAN has. The widebodies should be able to take off with more fuel and more bags. You could even see service to Australia.


Somebody posted in the 2018 the same suggestion and I will repeat what I wrote there

"North Island is sorry to say an absurd suggestion. Coronado is divided between some of the most expensive properties in the county and the base. No Coronado resident is going to agree to have the Navy leave only to have in its place an international airport with traffic.The bridge and strand are currently the only way from traffic to reach the base. No viable tunnel or other bridge could be built without a major disruption to the bay which is important for shipping and ship-related portion of the county's economy. Not to mention it would be unable to connect with the 5 without major construction disrupting any neighborhood.

North Island is an important component to the Navy. It hosts nearly all of the Pacific Fleet's helicopter squadrons, several fixed-wing squadrons, multiple Naval Air Reserve activities and is home to the both Fleet Readiness Center Southwest and the headquarters for Commander, Naval Air Forces. Thousands of jobs directly on the base and tens of thousands of other jobs rely on the base. The traffic and logistical nightmare of moving SAN across the bay would be a sure fire way to start a riot. Plus nobody wants to move to Lemoore or El Centro."


Relocating aircraft carriers to Washington and Hawaii would not be a smart or wise idea. NAS North Island itself is host to 23 aviation squadrons and 80 additional tenant commands and activities, one of which, the Fleet Readiness Center Southwest, is the largest aerospace employer in San Diego. Where do you propose you place all those aircraft, aircraft maintenance and support and personnel? There are tens of thousands of jobs that rely on North Island.

Besides, if North Island ever closed...property developers and the Coastal Commision would be foaming at the mouth.

I suggest that those ideas of Camp Pendelton, Miramar and North Island being the next location of SAN be laid to rest. For every post about them, there's a response with multiple facts and truths about why it's not possible.
 
tmiw
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:53 pm

Speaking of the military not allowing civilian operations, I recently found out that March ARB has Prime Air flights. Granted, there's only like 3 destinations from there (and doesn't guarantee that the military would even entertain sharing any of their SD County bases), but still.
 
SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:28 am

tmiw wrote:
Speaking of the military not allowing civilian operations, I recently found out that March ARB has Prime Air flights. Granted, there's only like 3 destinations from there (and doesn't guarantee that the military would even entertain sharing any of their SD County bases), but still.


Everyone here who says "military" means the Navy and Marines. The Air Force seems to have no problem with sharing with civilian facilities. There are many airports around the country that is shared with the USAF. I am specific of what branch of military I am referring to because each branch is different. The Navy and Marines may not want to share their facilities, but the Air Force is more open to it. I don't know about the Army though.
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blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:48 am

What about Campo? Weren't they talking about buying land in Campo to build an intercontinental airport?

I think it would make more sense to expand TIJ. I think any new international routes should take advantage of TIJ and the Cross Border Express. I would also like to see more domestic US flights operated out of TIJ. This will eliminate the problem of SAN being constrained by only one runway.

Driving to the Cross Border Express Terminal (CBX) is not that much longer than driving to Brown Field. I think the drive is four minutes longer. The CBX is right down the street from Brown Field. There is also plenty of land available to expand the CBX.

I would like to see Allegiant, Frontier, Spirit, Alaska, Sun Country, and Jetblue all shift some flights to TIJ. I can see TIJ-DEN, TIJ-DFW, and TIJ-SJC all being money makers.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:55 am

blacksoviet wrote:
What about Campo? Weren't they talking about buying land in Campo to build an intercontinental airport?


Yes, it was discussed, and almost immediately dismissed. Too far away on the wrong side of the mountains would have meant an hour's drive minimum from downtown San Diego. No rail line would be built over the mountains and hills without billions of dollars of engineering. The idea was rightfully shelved.

I think it would make more sense to expand TIJ. I think any new international routes should take advantage of TIJ and the Cross Border Express. I would also like to see more domestic US flights operated out of TIJ. This will eliminate the problem of SAN being constrained by only one runway.

Driving to the Cross Border Express Terminal (CBX) is not that much longer than driving to Brown Field. I think the drive is four minutes longer. The CBX is right down the street from Brown Field. There is also plenty of land available to expand the CBX.

I would like to see Allegiant, Frontier, Spirit, Alaska, Sun Country, and Jetblue all shift some flights to TIJ. I can see TIJ-DEN, TIJ-DFW, and TIJ-SJC all being money makers.


Never going to happen. Any flight from TIJ will have to pay international fees, and no one who is San Diego bound really wants to pay for either a taxi to the portals of Hades (San Ysidro or Otay Mesa) or an extra +/- $35 per person to cross back INTO the U.S. merely to save a few bucks over Lindbergh Field.

TIJ is aimed solely for Mexicans and those from southern California starting a journey to Mexico from inside the country, thereby saving money. Anything from the U.S. would require significant demand on both sides of the markets, and from TIJ to the U.S., there isn't any. Not with SAN being just over the border and LAX a couple of hours away.
 
cheapflier
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:29 am

Personally, if we're dreaming, I'd wonder if it were possible to land civilian planes at North Island and ferry passengers over from SAN (where check in would be located). Something similar to YTZ, but as a sterile ferry. Obviously it would have to be with O&D pax and not connections, but just a thought since we're spit-balling.

In any case, I don't think we'll see anything happen in the near future or even the next 20 years. The government (local, federal, military, etc.) has repeatedly shown there's no appetite to do anything. History has shown when airports actually near capacity, the FAA makes them slot-controlled. Inevitably, this would require airlines to fly larger aircraft to meet demand and/or force them to look elsewhere (such as moving RJs to CLD or SDM).

As congestion increases, I think it's natural we see some RJs to CLD first. There are higher incomes and more demand in the region. Plus, TIJ would naturally take away some traffic. As others have posted, it's more likely we see near destinations. I'd guess SFO/OAK/SJC, SEA, PHX, SLC, DEN and maybe even DFW to follow since American seems like it'll never run out of room there.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:29 am

Why did Delta stop flying the MD-90 to MSP?
 
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hawaiian717
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:56 pm

Southwest's latest Hawaii expansion adds Sacramento, but not San Diego. However they did have this to say:

The start of the carrier’s long-anticipated service between Hawaii and San Diego will probably come in the first half of next year once Southwest has a better handle on what its post-grounding fleet looks like, he said.


https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/08/ ... n-january/
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:47 pm

hawaiian717 wrote:
Southwest's latest Hawaii expansion adds Sacramento, but not San Diego. However they did have this to say:

The start of the carrier’s long-anticipated service between Hawaii and San Diego will probably come in the first half of next year once Southwest has a better handle on what its post-grounding fleet looks like, he said.

https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/08/ ... n-january/

Thanx for finding and sharing this link HA'. I've been over on the WN thread discussing the sked release and doing some venting too. I honestly hold little hope that it'll ever happen (SAN-HI) as I've been saying for well over 6 months now; this schedule pretty much confirmed my major doubts. WN made the decision to start SMF-HNL plus 4 other new mainland-Hawaii routes in January, keeping all their HI service clumped in the (extended) Bay Area. The issue of distance, in the winter, of w/b flights from the mainland, and the performance of the WN 738 fleet was brought up to me as a possible reason that WN is waiting for the MAX to arrive in-house to begin SAN-HI flying. (IF they ever fly... my comment.)

All I will say is SAN-HNL is right at ~150 miles longer than SMF-HNL or SJC-LIH -- both new WN routes starting in January -- which I suppose could be significant, but AS sure doesn't seem to have any major issues flying their 738s (exclusively) from SAN west to all 4 Islands year-round. WN's priorities are what they are so I'll just accept that WN has SAN-HI on indefinite hold and leave it at that. (I do make a solemn vow that I will never fly WN to Hawaii which I realize will not impact WN at all but, hey, if they ever ask me why, I'll be happy to 'splain!)

Regarding the rest of this sked extension by WN, apparently no SAN-routes have been cut permanently. There are frequency reductions on a few existing routes, which are prolly just normal seasonality but I wanted to mention SAN-MCO. It looks like WN is going to serve this almost-transcon on Sundays only from Jan to Mar. (It's been re-instated as daily as of this November and December (as of now anyway.)

My comment about this route is that all summer and fall -- since early June and thru October at least, WN has cut their daily service entirely. I just wonder why AS didn't jump in and at least make their flight daily instead of leaving it X23 as it's been since the route began 7 years ago? F9 did start up their seasonal service in the market for the summer which they haven't offered for a year a two. I can't believe that AS couldn't have filled one flight a day for the summer season with WN completely out of the market and the only competition being a red-eye FL that may or may not operate daily. Seems like a lapse on the part of AS Route Planners to not be monitoring competitive routes very well and making adjustments along the way.

WN, in January, will still offer 120 flights to 31 destinations which is 10 more than Jan of 2019 but less than their all-time high count of 128. By my count they are now using 12 gates -- I think that's correct isn't it? Thank goodness they don't have to be worrying about where to handle a bunch of Hawaii flights....

bb
 
Silver1SWA
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:24 pm

SANFan wrote:
hawaiian717 wrote:
Southwest's latest Hawaii expansion adds Sacramento, but not San Diego. However they did have this to say:

The start of the carrier’s long-anticipated service between Hawaii and San Diego will probably come in the first half of next year once Southwest has a better handle on what its post-grounding fleet looks like, he said.

https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/08/ ... n-january/

Thanx for finding and sharing this link HA'. I've been over on the WN thread discussing the sked release and doing some venting too. I honestly hold little hope that it'll ever happen (SAN-HI) as I've been saying for well over 6 months now; this schedule pretty much confirmed my major doubts. WN made the decision to start SMF-HNL plus 4 other new mainland-Hawaii routes in January, keeping all their HI service clumped in the (extended) Bay Area. The issue of distance, in the winter, of w/b flights from the mainland, and the performance of the WN 738 fleet was brought up to me as a possible reason that WN is waiting for the MAX to arrive in-house to begin SAN-HI flying. (IF they ever fly... my comment.)

All I will say is SAN-HNL is right at ~150 miles longer than SMF-HNL or SJC-LIH -- both new WN routes starting in January -- which I suppose could be significant, but AS sure doesn't seem to have any major issues flying their 738s (exclusively) from SAN west to all 4 Islands year-round. WN's priorities are what they are so I'll just accept that WN has SAN-HI on indefinite hold and leave it at that. (I do make a solemn vow that I will never fly WN to Hawaii which I realize will not impact WN at all but, hey, if they ever ask me why, I'll be happy to 'splain!)

bb


Some things to consider about WN’s 738 ETOPS fleet...

-They’re heavier due to the single class configuration.

-Flights from California already take a weight penalty and bookings are capped at 160 with the rest released only if they can take the weight. So while SAN isn’t that much longer, the fleet is already pushed to the limits on current west bound flights.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:37 pm

Does Alaska carry any cargo to Hawaii?
 
SANMAN66
Posts: 859
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:37 pm

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:05 am

SANFan wrote:
the performance of the WN 738 fleet was brought up to me as a possible reason that WN is waiting for the MAX to arrive in-house to begin SAN-HI flying.

bb


The 737 MAX groundings is turning me into a pessimist! Too many airlines are using that same stock excuse to not start up new services, or cut flights altogether. I think of that saying: "Let your no be no, and let your yes be yes!" Instead of blaming everything on the MAX groundings. It makes me wonder what the airlines did before there was a such thing as a "737 MAX?" It seems as if this problem didn't exist when they grounded the 787. As with SAN, JAL simply used a 777 about three times a week until the groundings were lifted.
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Silver1SWA
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:45 am

SANMAN66 wrote:
SANFan wrote:
the performance of the WN 738 fleet was brought up to me as a possible reason that WN is waiting for the MAX to arrive in-house to begin SAN-HI flying.

bb


The 737 MAX groundings is turning me into a pessimist! Too many airlines are using that same stock excuse to not start up new services, or cut flights altogether. I think of that saying: "Let your no be no, and let your yes be yes!" Instead of blaming everything on the MAX groundings. It makes me wonder what the airlines did before there was a such thing as a "737 MAX?" It seems as if this problem didn't exist when they grounded the 787. As with SAN, JAL simply used a 777 about three times a week until the groundings were lifted.


Personally I don’t see why there needs to be some bigger conspiracy. It makes sense to me. By year end they’ll be 75 planes short of where they were supposed to be, and future plans were made based on the performance of these planes. Hawaii is intended to be served entirely by the MaX fleet and before the groundings the 738s were only going to be used to initiate service until the MAXs were ETOPS approved.

And the 738 performance being the problem with SAN is just a guess on my part. I’m hearing SAN could come shortly after SMF. I am confident SAN will see Hawaii flights. They turned that station into a maintenance base specifically for it.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:00 pm

Silver1SWA wrote:
Personally I don’t see why there needs to be some bigger conspiracy. It makes sense to me. By year end they’ll be 75 planes short of where they were supposed to be, and future plans were made based on the performance of these planes. Hawaii is intended to be served entirely by the MaX fleet and before the groundings the 738s were only going to be used to initiate service until the MAXs were ETOPS approved.

And the 738 performance being the problem with SAN is just a guess on my part. I’m hearing SAN could come shortly after SMF. I am confident SAN will see Hawaii flights. They turned that station into a maintenance base specifically for it.

Hey Silver1', I want to make sure you know that I'm in no way upset with you for your help in trying to discuss the situation re: WN from SAN to the west. I respect you and your knowledge about WN, SAN and now HI too much and I do appreciate your getting involved in this mess. I apologize if I've come on strong in your direction.

I'm just pissed off about the situation and, as usual, have a low patience level for airline issues that affect my airport. Thru the history of San Diego Airport, in my opinion, we've gotten the shaft when issues arise concerning equipment, weather, new route choices, etc. It still seems to happen occasionally, such as in this case, and I get angry very fast. I have no right to question a major air carrier's decisions but isn't that what A.net is for? Guilty as charged!

When WN, in late 2017, announced the 4 cities that they selected as their mainland gateways to Hawaii, I was excited. (I didn't elect to include SAN, WN did.) Fast forward to 2 years later, and 3 of their announced gateways have service operating to at least 1 island, some to all 4, in place, or it's been announced. SAN? "No clue but hey, how about maybe NEXT year?... So here we are.

As I've posted earlier in the day, I simply have no more expectations of WN ever reaching the point where they will fly between SAN and Hawaii -- be it due to any of an apparently nice l-o-n-g list of reasons why they just can't seem to make SAN work. If and when I next fly to the Islands, I have 2 wonderful nonstop choices from here on 2 of my favorite airlines - AS and HA!

Thanks for your input, everyone, and especially you, Silver1'. And I hope you're enjoying your life in Paradise!

Aloha,

bb
 
SANMAN66
Posts: 859
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:37 pm

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:51 pm

SANFan wrote:
Silver1SWA wrote:
Personally I don’t see why there needs to be some bigger conspiracy. It makes sense to me. By year end they’ll be 75 planes short of where they were supposed to be, and future plans were made based on the performance of these planes. Hawaii is intended to be served entirely by the MaX fleet and before the groundings the 738s were only going to be used to initiate service until the MAXs were ETOPS approved.

And the 738 performance being the problem with SAN is just a guess on my part. I’m hearing SAN could come shortly after SMF. I am confident SAN will see Hawaii flights. They turned that station into a maintenance base specifically for it.

Hey Silver1', I want to make sure you know that I'm in no way upset with you for your help in trying to discuss the situation re: WN from SAN to the west. I respect you and your knowledge about WN, SAN and now HI too much and I do appreciate your getting involved in this mess. I apologize if I've come on strong in your direction.

I'm just pissed off about the situation and, as usual, have a low patience level for airline issues that affect my airport. Thru the history of San Diego Airport, in my opinion, we've gotten the shaft when issues arise concerning equipment, weather, new route choices, etc. It still seems to happen occasionally, such as in this case, and I get angry very fast. I have no right to question a major air carrier's decisions but isn't that what A.net is for? Guilty as charged!

When WN, in late 2017, announced the 4 cities that they selected as their mainland gateways to Hawaii, I was excited. (I didn't elect to include SAN, WN did.) Fast forward to 2 years later, and 3 of their announced gateways have service operating to at least 1 island, some to all 4, in place, or it's been announced. SAN? "No clue but hey, how about maybe NEXT year?... So here we are.

As I've posted earlier in the day, I simply have no more expectations of WN ever reaching the point where they will fly between SAN and Hawaii -- be it due to any of an apparently nice l-o-n-g list of reasons why they just can't seem to make SAN work. If and when I next fly to the Islands, I have 2 wonderful nonstop choices from here on 2 of my favorite airlines - AS and HA!

Thanks for your input, everyone, and especially you, Silver1'. And I hope you're enjoying your life in Paradise!

Aloha,

bb


Same here! I'm not upset with you "SWA" I agree with SanFan, it always seems as if SAN is at the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to new flights. I included WN in the list of the many airlines that are using the MAX grounding as an excuse. I'm glad you explained it to me, I've sort of given up on WN serving Hawaii from SAN, we have AS and HA. In my opinion, that's more than enough flights to Hawaii. More flights to Hawaii from SAN would be overkill.
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blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:36 pm

Has WN finished construction on the new conveyor belt in the bag room? Can Gate 2 still be used for regional jets or turboprops?
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:24 pm

I think I promised to shut up about WN, SAN and HI but I just wanted to prove that a couple of us here on A.net are not the only ones who've noticed the latest news!

Here's the headline from an article I saw yesterday morning in the online Union/Trib:
Southwest announces more nonstop service to Hawaii ⁠— but not from San Diego

and here are the first 2 paragraphs:
The wait for a nonstop flight between San Diego and Hawaii aboard Southwest Airlines just got a little longer as the airline announced Thursday that its newest service will be out of Sacramento, starting in January.

Southwest, which launched its first ever nonstop service to Hawaii in March — beginning with Oakland — said it still intends to offer flights out of San Diego starting next year but cannot say precisely when. That all depends on when the grounded Boeing 737 Max planes are cleared for service by the Federal Aviation Administration.

And here's the link to the good article written by Lori Weisberg: https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/bu ... 019-08-14/

Unfortunately there's really no new info included but the remarks made by Andrew Watterson, WN's Exec Veep-of-something-or-other are included: 'SAN-Hawaii should probably come in the first half of 2020'! (From the horse's mouth -- and about as specific as ever.)

Oh, and don't forget, it's pointed out that those who want to fly WN between SAN and the Islands can always change planes in SJC, OAK or SMF! Wow, isn't that nice?

bb
 
WN732
Posts: 530
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:46 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
What if the Navy moved the aircraft carriers to Washington and Hawaii? North Island could be a huge airport and could become the main airport for San Diego. The bridge could easily handle all the traffic and the ferry could be reintroduced from Downtown.

Intercontinental flights should benefit because North Island (NZY) doesn't have the terrain issues that SAN has. The widebodies should be able to take off with more fuel and more bags. You could even see service to Australia.


All of the runways at NZY are 8000' or less. That is a significant difference from SAN. And wouldn't RWY 29 suffer from the same issues as terrain from Point Loma? There would be no restrictions from runway 11 but it really wouldn't solve much. Miramar is the best solution. It has less NIMBY's on the east end and aircraft would be pretty high before they reached La Jolla.
 
SANMAN66
Posts: 859
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:37 pm

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:11 pm

SANFan wrote:

Oh, and don't forget, it's pointed out that those who want to fly WN between SAN and the Islands can always change planes in SJC, OAK or SMF! Wow, isn't that nice?

bb


I don't pretend that I know everything about the airline businesss, I just question what I see is happening. Who would want to change planes in SJC, SMF, or OAK when you can fly nonstop from SAN on AS and HA? Also IF the 737 MAX flies again, not many people will want to fly on the MAX due to the safety record. However, the DC-10 had several fatal crashes, but they corrected the problems and the DC-10 still flies to this day albeit cargo versions. (The DC-10 is one of my favorite aircraft). The longer the MAX is grounded, the more pax's confidence in the 737 MAX is diminished.
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hawaiian717
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:24 pm

SANMAN66 wrote:
It seems as if this problem didn't exist when they grounded the 787. As with SAN, JAL simply used a 777 about three times a week until the groundings were lifted.


There are some notable differences between the 787 and 737 MAX groundings.

It only lasted about three months, with JAL and ANA voluntarily grounding their fleets on January 16, 2013, with the FAA ordering the US 787 fleet grounded later the same day. Return to service requirements were decided on April 19 by FAA and Japanese authorities. The MAX was grounded between March 10-13, 2019. So we’re now just past 5 months in with no end in sight and more problems have been found since the initial grounding.

There are more aircraft involved. When the 787 was grounded, 50 aircraft had been delivered, with 24 of them at JAL and ANA. 387 aircraft were pulled from service when the MAX was grounded. Plus the 737’s higher production rate means there are more aircraft that aren’t being delivered, thus more lines of flying that were planned for those undelivered aircraft that have to be rethought.

Finally, I think we got a bit lucky in that JAL decided to sub the 777 for the grounded 787. SJC for example didn’t fare as well; their flight to NRT on ANA was cancelled outright for the duration of the grounding.
 
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hawaiian717
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:27 pm

SANMAN66 wrote:
I'm glad you explained it to me, I've sort of given up on WN serving Hawaii from SAN, we have AS and HA. In my opinion, that's more than enough flights to Hawaii. More flights to Hawaii from SAN would be overkill.


Don’t forget we’re getting a capacity cut in January when Hawaiian downgrades the HNL flight from the A330 to the A321neo. So when Southwest starts SAN-Hawaii, overall capacity will be starting from a lower point.
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1465
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:33 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
What if the Navy moved the aircraft carriers to Washington and Hawaii? North Island could be a huge airport and could become the main airport for San Diego. The bridge could easily handle all the traffic and the ferry could be reintroduced from Downtown.

Intercontinental flights should benefit because North Island (NZY) doesn't have the terrain issues that SAN has. The widebodies should be able to take off with more fuel and more bags. You could even see service to Australia.


Yeah, 50,000 passengers a day over the Coronado Bridge. That is going to work just finnnneeeee.......
 
SANMAN66
Posts: 859
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:37 pm

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:34 pm

hawaiian717 wrote:
SANMAN66 wrote:
It seems as if this problem didn't exist when they grounded the 787. As with SAN, JAL simply used a 777 about three times a week until the groundings were lifted.


There are some notable differences between the 787 and 737 MAX groundings.

It only lasted about three months, with JAL and ANA voluntarily grounding their fleets on January 16, 2013, with the FAA ordering the US 787 fleet grounded later the same day. Return to service requirements were decided on April 19 by FAA and Japanese authorities. The MAX was grounded between March 10-13, 2019. So we’re now just past 5 months in with no end in sight and more problems have been found since the initial grounding.


Thanx for the info! I thought that it was the MCAS system that was only problem. I wonder what other problems they found in the MAX? Now it starting to make sense to me.
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washingtonflyer
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:40 pm

WN732 wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
What if the Navy moved the aircraft carriers to Washington and Hawaii? North Island could be a huge airport and could become the main airport for San Diego. The bridge could easily handle all the traffic and the ferry could be reintroduced from Downtown.

Intercontinental flights should benefit because North Island (NZY) doesn't have the terrain issues that SAN has. The widebodies should be able to take off with more fuel and more bags. You could even see service to Australia.


All of the runways at NZY are 8000' or less. That is a significant difference from SAN. And wouldn't RWY 29 suffer from the same issues as terrain from Point Loma? There would be no restrictions from runway 11 but it really wouldn't solve much. Miramar is the best solution. It has less NIMBY's on the east end and aircraft would be pretty high before they reached La Jolla.



Rwy 29 probably has greater takeoff angle restrictions than does Rwy 27 at SAN. The hill to the west of SAN is not very tall. The hill to the west of Shelter Island (the path of Rwy 29) is significantly steeper.

That being said, I've seen C17s and C5s land at NZY - always on Rwy 18.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:07 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
What if the Navy moved the aircraft carriers to Washington and Hawaii? North Island could be a huge airport and could become the main airport for San Diego. The bridge could easily handle all the traffic and the ferry could be reintroduced from Downtown.

Intercontinental flights should benefit because North Island (NZY) doesn't have the terrain issues that SAN has. The widebodies should be able to take off with more fuel and more bags. You could even see service to Australia.


Yeah, 50,000 passengers a day over the Coronado Bridge. That is going to work just finnnneeeee.......

How many Navy base employees currently cross the bridge each day?
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1465
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:22 pm

Not 50,000. And a good chunk of them live in South Bay which means they come up Silver Strand. According to Wiki, between 10,000 and 15,000 work for the Navy. That would include all commands on Coronado (including the Naval amphibious base, etc.).

And any offset in loss of navy employees (civilian or uniformed) would be more than offset by gate agents, flight attendants, flight deck crew, fuelers, TSA agents, etc. According to the Airport Authority, 8,500 people are directly employed by airport tenants.
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:15 pm

hawaiian717 wrote:
SANMAN66 wrote:
I'm glad you explained it to me, I've sort of given up on WN serving Hawaii from SAN, we have AS and HA. In my opinion, that's more than enough flights to Hawaii. More flights to Hawaii from SAN would be overkill.

Don’t forget we’re getting a capacity cut in January when Hawaiian downgrades the HNL flight from the A330 to the A321neo. So when Southwest starts SAN-Hawaii, overall capacity will be starting from a lower point.

I haven't seen the Hawaiian Tourism Dept stats for a few years but the last time I saw them, SAN was either 4th or 5th on the list of the most popular U.S. origin cities sending travelers to the Islands. The order was LA, SF, SEA and I believe we were next, followed by PDX and NYC. Things may have changed some recently but I feel it safe to say that SAN is among the Top 5 originators in the U.S.of Hawaii-bound flyers.

That being said, I've always been a bit underwhelmed by the number of cx and seats SAN sees to the Islands. When considering how many flights a day there are from LA, SFO and SEA across the Pacific, there seems to be quite a step down to where we (and PDX) are with capacity. Which is maybe just the way it is, and that's fine. Heck, until just last year, we only had a single flight/carrier to Maui; finally HA got it going as well. And will HA ever start service to LIH & KOA from here? Who knows. One way to view it is if they are going to cut the number of seats to HNL starting in January (due to the equipment d/g mentioned by HA') perhaps their plan is to add nonstop to those 2 other outer-islands in 2020!!! I can't see them forever just letting AS serve all 4 islands, plus maybe even WN...

What I guess I'm saying is I think SAN can very well handle another carrier serving HI from here, especially if it is carrying a number of connecting pax as well as local traffic. I'm not worried that if WN actually begins flying west from here at some point that there will be over-capacity. I'm sure there are UA, DL & AA flyers who probably do connect in LA or SF to get to HI from here (or those hearty souls who drive up to LA to catch their flights...) and perhaps, if we see more capacity, more choices from our own airport, more folks will find a nonstop from here to their liking.

But who knows; by thinking anything is possible, maybe one of the Big 3 I mentioned, or else SY or B6, or ?? might be the next carrier to begin flying from here to there. Whomever it is, I certainly think SAN should be able to handle at least 3 Hawaiian-bound cx.

bb
 
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Coronado990
Posts: 1425
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:25 pm

According to the City of Coronado, a weekday averages 87,300 vehicles on the Coronado Bridge and the weekend average is 63,300 vehicles per day. 2016 figuers.
We're up.
 
tphuang
Posts: 3001
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:20 pm

SANFan wrote:
hawaiian717 wrote:
SANMAN66 wrote:
I'm glad you explained it to me, I've sort of given up on WN serving Hawaii from SAN, we have AS and HA. In my opinion, that's more than enough flights to Hawaii. More flights to Hawaii from SAN would be overkill.

Don’t forget we’re getting a capacity cut in January when Hawaiian downgrades the HNL flight from the A330 to the A321neo. So when Southwest starts SAN-Hawaii, overall capacity will be starting from a lower point.

I haven't seen the Hawaiian Tourism Dept stats for a few years but the last time I saw them, SAN was either 4th or 5th on the list of the most popular U.S. origin cities sending travelers to the Islands. The order was LA, SF, SEA and I believe we were next, followed by PDX and NYC. Things may have changed some recently but I feel it safe to say that SAN is among the Top 5 originators in the U.S.of Hawaii-bound flyers.

That being said, I've always been a bit underwhelmed by the number of cx and seats SAN sees to the Islands. When considering how many flights a day there are from LA, SFO and SEA across the Pacific, there seems to be quite a step down to where we (and PDX) are with capacity. Which is maybe just the way it is, and that's fine. Heck, until just last year, we only had a single flight/carrier to Maui; finally HA got it going as well. And will HA ever start service to LIH & KOA from here? Who knows. One way to view it is if they are going to cut the number of seats to HNL starting in January (due to the equipment d/g mentioned by HA') perhaps their plan is to add nonstop to those 2 other outer-islands in 2020!!! I can't see them forever just letting AS serve all 4 islands, plus maybe even WN...

What I guess I'm saying is I think SAN can very well handle another carrier serving HI from here, especially if it is carrying a number of connecting pax as well as local traffic. I'm not worried that if WN actually begins flying west from here at some point that there will be over-capacity. I'm sure there are UA, DL & AA flyers who probably do connect in LA or SF to get to HI from here (or those hearty souls who drive up to LA to catch their flights...) and perhaps, if we see more capacity, more choices from our own airport, more folks will find a nonstop from here to their liking.

But who knows; by thinking anything is possible, maybe one of the Big 3 I mentioned, or else SY or B6, or ?? might be the next carrier to begin flying from here to there. Whomever it is, I certainly think SAN should be able to handle at least 3 Hawaiian-bound cx.

bb

if SMF can handle 3 carriers to HI, then SAN should easily be able to support it.
 
jplatts
Posts: 2684
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:49 pm

tphuang wrote:
if SMF can handle 3 carriers to HI, then SAN should easily be able to support it.


HA, AS, and DL all serve Hawaii nonstop from SEA, but DL has connecting feed from the Pacific Northwest and U.S. states east of the West Coast in addition to O&D on its SEA-Hawaii nonstops.

I agree that SAN should be easily able to support 3 carriers to Hawaii.

AS also already operates the 737-800 on nonstop routes longer than SAN-HNL such as ANC-HNL, PDX-HNL, and SEA-HNL. SAN is also 163 miles closer to HNL than ANC is.

WN likely has enough range to reach SAN nonstop from HNL on a 737-800 as AS operates the 737-800 on a few nonstop routes longer than SAN-HNL.
 
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Coronado990
Posts: 1425
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:12 pm

Wo ist Edelweiss? Has Edelweiss been cancelled again?. I do not see them in flightaware today Fri Aug 16. If so, that should pretty much tell you how things will go next year.
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