jplatts
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:49 pm

tphuang wrote:
if SMF can handle 3 carriers to HI, then SAN should easily be able to support it.


HA, AS, and DL all serve Hawaii nonstop from SEA, but DL has connecting feed from the Pacific Northwest and U.S. states east of the West Coast in addition to O&D on its SEA-Hawaii nonstops.

I agree that SAN should be easily able to support 3 carriers to Hawaii.

AS also already operates the 737-800 on nonstop routes longer than SAN-HNL such as ANC-HNL, PDX-HNL, and SEA-HNL. SAN is also 163 miles closer to HNL than ANC is.

WN likely has enough range to reach SAN nonstop from HNL on a 737-800 as AS operates the 737-800 on a few nonstop routes longer than SAN-HNL.
 
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Coronado990
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:12 pm

Wo ist Edelweiss? Has Edelweiss been cancelled again?. I do not see them in flightaware today Fri Aug 16. If so, that should pretty much tell you how things will go next year.
We're up.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:39 am

jplatts wrote:
tphuang wrote:
if SMF can handle 3 carriers to HI, then SAN should easily be able to support it.


HA, AS, and DL all serve Hawaii nonstop from SEA, but DL has connecting feed from the Pacific Northwest and U.S. states east of the West Coast in addition to O&D on its SEA-Hawaii nonstops.

I agree that SAN should be easily able to support 3 carriers to Hawaii.

AS also already operates the 737-800 on nonstop routes longer than SAN-HNL such as ANC-HNL, PDX-HNL, and SEA-HNL. SAN is also 163 miles closer to HNL than ANC is.

WN likely has enough range to reach SAN nonstop from HNL on a 737-800 as AS operates the 737-800 on a few nonstop routes longer than SAN-HNL.

AS 738s have less seats than WN 738s therefore they can fly furthur.

Hainan now flies twice a week from PEK to TIJ on the 787. When will SAN see China service?

When will Aeromexico launch Hawaii service from TIJ? Certainly the 73G has enough range.

Did British Airways ever fly nonstop from LGW to SAN with the 742 or did they wait for the 77E?
 
friendlyskies22
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:03 am

OK, re other airports...NKX is really the only feasible alternate. As SANAQV8R pointed out, North Island wouldn't work, due to access (3 lane bridge) and the size of the Navy operation.
Lets face it, any more work at SAN, including terminal rebuilds and rapid transit attempts, are strictly band-aids, and will never resolve the location, traffic, single runway issues.

1. Convince the Marines to move fixed wing flying to Lemoore and rotary wing flying to Pendleton and depart NKX

or, 2. Eliminate Marine aviation; move fixed wing flying to the Navy and AF, and rotary wing flying to the Army, and depart NKX.

or, 3. Merge the Marines into the Army.
Ok, I know #3 is controversial, but when thinking about it, there is a huge duplication of effort between the Army and Marines. The Marines were formed to utilize
invasions from sea. When is the last time a large scale sea invasion was seen? (1950-Korea?). As you can imagine, the cost savings would be substantial (one report
I read was a DoD savings estimate of $20 Billion...not sure if that was one time or annually.) (that would build a lot of wall...)

Anyway, the USMC has a proud history and #3 wouldn't change that.

Proud Veteran (Korea & VietNam)
 
SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:08 am

blacksoviet wrote:
When will Aeromexico launch Hawaii service from TIJ? Certainly the 73G has enough


If Aeromexico launches Hawaii it most likely would be from MEX and not TIJ. If AM launched Hawaii service from TIJ, they would be competing with SAN that has AS, HA, and hopefully WN.
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SANAV8R
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:58 am

This thread is becoming increasingly wild. Between the idea of moving domestic low-cost operations to a foreign airport or eliminating whole branches and reorganizing the U.S. military complex for a single domestic airport. I love my city, its contributions to commercial aviation and what the future holds but I need to make the following points and now it sounds rantish/off topic:

    - Tijuana is in Mexico. The thought of a U.S. carrier using a foreign airport to have passengers cross the border to fly "domestic" because of its location (when it really is international) seems like political, economic and air carrier/trade law fiasco.

    - The CBX is simply a land bridge to the airport which is conveniently located along the US/Mexico border and near the busiest land-border crossing in the world. It’s not solution to SAN’s issues. The CBX is a great unique thing for Tijuana's airport but to break it down CBX is essentially a tack on toll bridge that crosses the border and ends up at the airport. Passengers pay the toll to avoid using the land borders at Otay or San Ysidro. The bulk of CBX’s users are people traveling to and from Mexico’s interior.

    - Carlsbad is not a viable option. Between NIMBYs, the outlets, a theme park with nearly a million plus visitors every year, and a single access point from the freeway that is becoming increasingly congested, nobody is going to get any major service.

    - Marines are not moving. And they aren’t being broken up for San Diego to have a new airport. To repeat what Secretary of the Navy James Forrestal in the 1940s said after Iwo Jima [there will be] “a Marine Corps for the next five hundred years.” Marines are not going to move their aviation components to Lemoore, Yuma, Pendleton or give their components to the Navy, Army or whoever so we can have a new airport. And while the Marines "were formed to utilize invasions from the sea" they have both expeditionary and amphibious operations and yes at times have used the mobility of the Navy to provide timely intervention in foreign affairs on behalf of American interests, but have other duties as the President or Department of Defense may direct. That being said while Miramar is a desireable location, it just is not an option. San Diego lost that opportunity in 1954. Voters said no in 2006. Things may change, but for now they are not.

There are plenty of great posts on here that give great information about SAN’s future including the next steps for Terminal 1 and Terminal 2 East and future routes or service. Our airport is right sized. Would we all love widebodies around the world? Sure. But we have a great airport and we should be proud of that and focus on what's coming.
You're either gonna love me or hate me. There is no in between with me.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:18 am

I see two expansions possible:

#1 move the cargo operations on the north side of the field to Brown Field (SDM). The number of aircraft movements are minimal, and Fed Ex, UPS, Airborne/DHL, etc. all have sizeable existing operations near the border of Brown owing to the existence of the Otay cargo crossing. The runway at SDM is 8,000 feet so it has ample length. I recognize that there are mountains a few miles to the east of SDM, but that would not preclude some nuanced approaches to ensure a landing there or would not preclude downwind landings on 8L provided that the tailwind does not exceed limitations on the cargo jets there (mostly 767s and A300s). This would free up space northside for RON parking, a new terminal, or hardstands.

#2 more challenging, but should from an efficiency standpoint be more reasonable, close MCRD San Diego. The fact of the matter is that while the Marine Corps loves MCRD San Diego, its an ancient facility and its cramped/limited in operation. 1/2 of the training that Marine recruits undergo happen at Camp Pendleton anyhow. So, why not just shutter the Depot, move ALL recruit training to Pendleton, and convert -some- of the land aboard the Depot for use as a second runway. I am sure certain of the buildings at the Depot are registered historic landmarks, but there is enough parade ground and obstacle course land to build close spaced parallel or slightly offset runway. The fact of the matter is the Department of the Navy happily closed NTC San Diego and transferred recruit training to Great Lakes; they can do the same for MCRD.
Last edited by washingtonflyer on Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:26 am

Speaking of exotic....someone is spending a nice weekend in SAN: CC-AYB is en route non-stop to SAN from SCL. That's a long flight.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:34 am

Montgomery Executive Airport (MYF) has three runways. A 4 gate terminal can be built there allowing Allegiant, Jetblue, and Sun Country to shift all flights there. This will alllow for a smoother operation at SAN.

Runway 10L is 4598 ft long. This should be long enough for an A320 to depart to BOS.
 
SANAV8R
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:09 am

blacksoviet wrote:
Montgomery Executive Airport (MYF) has three runways. A 4 gate terminal can be built there allowing Allegiant, Jetblue, and Sun Country to shift all flights there. This will alllow for a smoother operation at SAN.

Runway 10L is 4598 ft long. This should be long enough for an A320 to depart to BOS.


You're joking right? :rotfl: It's Montgomery Field. Have you seen it?

The city had the fiasco with the Sunroad Building being a hazard for small planes. I don't think a fully loaded commerical jetliner will be welcomed by the residents of Clairemont/Tierrasanta/Serra Mesa.

washingtonflyer wrote:
#2 more challenging, but should from an efficiency standpoint be more reasonable, close MCRD San Diego. The fact of the matter is that while the Marine Corps loves MCRD San Diego, its an ancient facility and its cramped/limited in operation. 1/2 of the training that Marine recruits undergo happen at Camp Pendleton anyhow. So, why not just shutter the Depot, move ALL recruit training to Pendleton, and convert -some- of the land aboard the Depot for use as a second runway. I am sure certain of the buildings at the Depot are registered historic landmarks, but there is enough parade ground and obstacle course land to build close spaced parallel or slightly offset runway. The fact of the matter is the Department of the Navy happily closed NTC San Diego and transferred recruit training to Great Lakes; they can do the same for MCRD.


Again another oft posted idea.

    - The facility is on the U.S. National Register of Historic Places, and the parade deck is a tribute to veterans of numerous wars. The facility is protected. Over 21,000 recruits (enlisted male recruits living west of the Mississippi River) are trained each year at MCRD and the depot is home to the Marine Corps' Recruiter School and Western Recruiting Region's Drill Instructors School. Not exactly a limited facility.
    - However *if* MCRD did relocate the airport wouldn't gain too much. They would most likely get the area essentially south of the Parade Deck to the strip adjacent to the runway and cargo areas (i.e. the pool house, the PFT course, the PT fields, some sports fields, the O-Course) and the RV/Boat parking lots that lie at the edge of the runway. The main historic (or those "ancient" "cramped") facilities on the north side and the parkspace to the West which lie just on the edge or rather behind Corvette Diner at Liberty Station would easily be converted to shops, galleries, museums and dining.
    - Department of Defense did not recommend San Diego's closure because it would create a single point of failure in regard to Parris Island's vulnerability to hurricanes, among other threats. The payback on such closure would take over 100 years, due to the need for new construction at Parris Island and the need to relocate rather than eliminate personnel from San Diego. Parris Island is vulnerable to hurricanes. Recruits have been evacuated in recent years. MCRD San Diego’s natural vulnerabilities would be potentially be earthquake or air quality from a massive fire in the county.
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PacoMartin
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San Diego Aviation Operations ATADS

Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:07 am

SANAV8R wrote:
There are plenty of great posts on here that give great information about SAN’s future including the next steps for Terminal 1 and Terminal 2 East and future routes or service. Our airport is right sized. Would we all love widebodies around the world? Sure. But we have a great airport and we should be proud of that and focus on what's coming.


A blast from the past! The SDAA assured us that operations at the single-runway airport would be constrained at 260,000 operations per year, and at 300,000 no further growth would be possible.

Regional jets and turboprops peaked in 1995. After the vote in 2006 general aviation and military operations were severely reduced, and regional jets largely moved up to 70 and 76 seat jets.

Operations per year
1990 212,553
1991 206,487
1992 213,983
1993 208,506
1994 221,044
1995 245,280 - peak number of operations (regional operations at 69,174)
1996 224,466
1997 224,488
1998 223,257
1999 222,356
2000 207,916
2001 206,848
2002 206,605
2003 204,713
2004 215,211
2005 229,192
2006 230,798 --- County Vote on Airport
2007 237,574
2008 228,167
2009 199,612
2010 190,137
2011 185,143 ---- post vote minimum
2012 187,326
2013 187,981
2014 191,765
2015 193,712
2016 196,935
2017 209,563
2018 225,058

The years 2017 and 2018 have seen a dramatic uptick in operations.

As of the first 6 months in 2019 estimated load factor 85.0% or 125.7 passengers out of 148.0 seats per operation.

The analysis done in 2004 that predicted constrained operations as early as 2016 believed that capacity would never go above 100 passengers out of 130 seats per operation.

Gate Utilization Rate (Operations) First half of 2019 compared to 2018 and % change.
Terminal 1 East 9.7 9.4 4.0%
Terminal 1 West 2.2 5.5 -59.6%
Terminal 2 East 6.9 4.1 67.5%
Terminal 2 West 4.0 3.9 2.6%
Terminal 2 FIS 1.0 1.1 -13.2%
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:58 am

blacksoviet wrote:
Montgomery Executive Airport (MYF) has three runways. A 4 gate terminal can be built there allowing Allegiant, Jetblue, and Sun Country to shift all flights there. This will alllow for a smoother operation at SAN.

Runway 10L is 4598 ft long. This should be long enough for an A320 to depart to BOS.


Simply not going to happen. That airport is a general aviation zoo and the runways too short for anything of consequence.

Between this and the Coronado Bridge nonsense, you're spit balling.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:11 pm

SANAV8R wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
Montgomery Executive Airport (MYF) has three runways. A 4 gate terminal can be built there allowing Allegiant, Jetblue, and Sun Country to shift all flights there. This will alllow for a smoother operation at SAN.

Runway 10L is 4598 ft long. This should be long enough for an A320 to depart to BOS.


You're joking right? :rotfl: It's Montgomery Field. Have you seen it?

The city had the fiasco with the Sunroad Building being a hazard for small planes. I don't think a fully loaded commerical jetliner will be welcomed by the residents of Clairemont/Tierrasanta/Serra Mesa.

washingtonflyer wrote:
#2 more challenging, but should from an efficiency standpoint be more reasonable, close MCRD San Diego. The fact of the matter is that while the Marine Corps loves MCRD San Diego, its an ancient facility and its cramped/limited in operation. 1/2 of the training that Marine recruits undergo happen at Camp Pendleton anyhow. So, why not just shutter the Depot, move ALL recruit training to Pendleton, and convert -some- of the land aboard the Depot for use as a second runway. I am sure certain of the buildings at the Depot are registered historic landmarks, but there is enough parade ground and obstacle course land to build close spaced parallel or slightly offset runway. The fact of the matter is the Department of the Navy happily closed NTC San Diego and transferred recruit training to Great Lakes; they can do the same for MCRD.


Again another oft posted idea.

    - The facility is on the U.S. National Register of Historic Places, and the parade deck is a tribute to veterans of numerous wars. The facility is protected. Over 21,000 recruits (enlisted male recruits living west of the Mississippi River) are trained each year at MCRD and the depot is home to the Marine Corps' Recruiter School and Western Recruiting Region's Drill Instructors School. Not exactly a limited facility.
    - However *if* MCRD did relocate the airport wouldn't gain too much. They would most likely get the area essentially south of the Parade Deck to the strip adjacent to the runway and cargo areas (i.e. the pool house, the PFT course, the PT fields, some sports fields, the O-Course) and the RV/Boat parking lots that lie at the edge of the runway. The main historic (or those "ancient" "cramped") facilities on the north side and the parkspace to the West which lie just on the edge or rather behind Corvette Diner at Liberty Station would easily be converted to shops, galleries, museums and dining.
    - Department of Defense did not recommend San Diego's closure because it would create a single point of failure in regard to Parris Island's vulnerability to hurricanes, among other threats. The payback on such closure would take over 100 years, due to the need for new construction at Parris Island and the need to relocate rather than eliminate personnel from San Diego. Parris Island is vulnerable to hurricanes. Recruits have been evacuated in recent years. MCRD San Diego’s natural vulnerabilities would be potentially be earthquake or air quality from a massive fire in the county.


Thanks for the Wikipedia talking points. DoD recommendations were made based on the assumption that a replacement for MCRD was not accounted for (i.e., having one training base). That's rather silly given that 1) several weeks of training for recruits is done at Pendleton anyhow (weapons and field training) and there is more than ample space to develop additional facilities, and 2) other branch services seem able to train new recruits in a single location (Great Lakes for the Navy and San Antonio for the Air Force).

As to the historic nature, I indeed noted that as an impediment. However, the actual historic zone is confined to the strip of buildings north of the parade deck. The parade deck south to the airport fence is not protected. That is wide enough for airport use (including a runway. The cargo ops an the FBO would have to disappear or be relocated, but it does open up a swath of territory.

I get the cultural significance of the Depot. My father, uncle, and cousin all passed through there. But even my father thought the notion of doing COD and exercise runs at the Depot and then being bused out of town for four weeks was nuts.
 
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DLSANMan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:10 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:

TIJ is aimed solely for Mexicans and those from southern California starting a journey to Mexico from inside the country, thereby saving money. Anything from the U.S. would require significant demand on both sides of the markets, and from TIJ to the U.S., there isn't any. Not with SAN being just over the border and LAX a couple of hours away.



I used to fly from TIJ 2x per month. Why??? I could fly AM to just about anywhere I needed to go in LATAM and I would occasionally fly them to AMS, MAD and CDG.
The price difference from SAN to GRU would save me about $8-12k per trip. (Business fare). The price difference to AMS was consistently $5k less. I like the flight coming from Europe all night. I would get a full days work in on Friday and be home Saturday by 10 am.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:14 pm

SANMAN66 wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
Miramar is off the table because the Marines gave up El Toro instead. The Navy would need to find a new aircraft carrier homeport if North Island were to be converted to civilian use. I think Camp Pendleton has a lot of land.


The Marines nearly had a cow when it was proposed that Miramar could be shared with a civilian airport! (The Air Force does it all the time), The Marines were adamant about not sharing Miramar with a civilian airport. You also have to figure in the NIMBYs living near that area also. If the Marines refuse to share Miramar, then they would never be open to sharing Camp Pendleton either.


What Air Combat Command base shares operations with a -major- international airport. Minot doesn't count. In other words, what Air Force ACC base shares a runway with an airport that has 500+ commercial movements a day?

I
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:33 pm

In 2006 the committee started with 30 possibilities. They are listed in alphabetical order. Anything that can be dreamed up on this forum was in the list

Brown Field/Otay Mesa Study Area
Borrego Springs Campo/Boulevard Site
Camp Callan-Torrey Pines
Carmel Valley-Gonzales Canyon
El Toro
Corte Madera Valley Area
French Valley/Temecula
East Miramar
Gillespie Field
Imperial County Desert Site
March Air Reserve Base
Marine Corps Air Station (MCAS)
Miramar Site
McClellan-Palomar Airport Area
Mission Bay - Dredge-Fill
Mission Bay-San Diego River
Naval Air Station (NAS) North Island/SDIA Site
Montgomery Field
National City Bayfront Area Oceanside Area
Off-Shore Floating Airport --------------------------------------Very Japanese solution
Otay Mesa Area Rincon Indian Reservation
Ramona Area
Salt Marsh Naval Communications Station Area
San Diego International Airport
Silver Strand Area
Tijuana Rodriguez International Airport
Tijuana River Valley West
Ramona-Highland Valley
Warner Springs Area
West Ramona-Highland Valley
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:32 pm

DLSANMan wrote:
I used to fly from TIJ 2x per month. Why??? I could fly AM to just about anywhere I needed to go in LATAM and I would occasionally fly them to AMS, MAD and CDG.
The price difference from SAN to GRU would save me about $8-12k per trip. (Business fare). The price difference to AMS was consistently $5k less. I like the flight coming from Europe all night. I would get a full days work in on Friday and be home Saturday by 10 am.


Volaris has 5 Airbus A321neo and 35 more on order. With that range they could fly from TIJ to Canada, the Caribbean, Central America, and northern countries in South America (even without the long range version.

I like the TJ airport (and I used to fly from there before they built the CBX).
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:55 pm

DLSANMan wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:

TIJ is aimed solely for Mexicans and those from southern California starting a journey to Mexico from inside the country, thereby saving money. Anything from the U.S. would require significant demand on both sides of the markets, and from TIJ to the U.S., there isn't any. Not with SAN being just over the border and LAX a couple of hours away.



I used to fly from TIJ 2x per month. Why??? I could fly AM to just about anywhere I needed to go in LATAM and I would occasionally fly them to AMS, MAD and CDG.
The price difference from SAN to GRU would save me about $8-12k per trip. (Business fare). The price difference to AMS was consistently $5k less. I like the flight coming from Europe all night. I would get a full days work in on Friday and be home Saturday by 10 am.


I have priced flights to Latin America (not that I can afford it or take the time to go, sadly, but I still dream!), and every time I do, TIJ-MEX-Whatever destination I am searching for comes up less expensive than UA, DL, or AA, period. Even including the CBX fees to avoid San Ysidro or Otay Mesa, it's still cheaper. I don't think SAN is ever going to be competitive with TIJ until COPA arrives.

And I know it's heresy, but maybe COPA would do well at TIJ instead of SAN: (a) proximity to San Diego & easy access via Cross-Border Xpress, (b) an unrestricted airport that allows for late-night departures, (c) possible lower fees from TIJ. Yes, I'd prefer to see the beautiful COPA plane landing at Lindbergh Field, but CM wouldn't be competing too much with AM at TIJ, given that most of TIJ's pax are Mexico-bound.
 
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DLSANMan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:52 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
DLSANMan wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:

TIJ is aimed solely for Mexicans and those from southern California starting a journey to Mexico from inside the country, thereby saving money. Anything from the U.S. would require significant demand on both sides of the markets, and from TIJ to the U.S., there isn't any. Not with SAN being just over the border and LAX a couple of hours away.



I used to fly from TIJ 2x per month. Why??? I could fly AM to just about anywhere I needed to go in LATAM and I would occasionally fly them to AMS, MAD and CDG.
The price difference from SAN to GRU would save me about $8-12k per trip. (Business fare). The price difference to AMS was consistently $5k less. I like the flight coming from Europe all night. I would get a full days work in on Friday and be home Saturday by 10 am.


I have priced flights to Latin America (not that I can afford it or take the time to go, sadly, but I still dream!), and every time I do, TIJ-MEX-Whatever destination I am searching for comes up less expensive than UA, DL, or AA, period. Even including the CBX fees to avoid San Ysidro or Otay Mesa, it's still cheaper. I don't think SAN is ever going to be competitive with TIJ until COPA arrives.

And I know it's heresy, but maybe COPA would do well at TIJ instead of SAN: (a) proximity to San Diego & easy access via Cross-Border Xpress, (b) an unrestricted airport that allows for late-night departures, (c) possible lower fees from TIJ. Yes, I'd prefer to see the beautiful COPA plane landing at Lindbergh Field, but CM wouldn't be competing too much with AM at TIJ, given that most of TIJ's pax are Mexico-bound.




The challenge with Copa is they have a code share with AM. So technically they are already flying TIJ MeX. which I consider the SAN greater area. I doubt they will come to SAN anytime soon.
With HU to PEK it makes it challenging for anyone to start service from SAN to China. The sooner we could just partner, I think it would be better.
 
SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:01 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
Speaking of exotic....someone is spending a nice weekend in SAN: CC-AYB is en route non-stop to SAN from SCL. That's a long flight.


Is that an airline? What kind of plane is it?
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Coronado990
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:14 pm

Hey SANAV8R, I agree with all your points except CLD. You said...

"- Carlsbad is not a viable option. Between NIMBYs, the outlets, a theme park with nearly a million plus visitors every year, and a single access point from the freeway that is becoming increasingly congested, nobody is going to get any major service."

NIMBY's are going to be a factor at every airport so that will always have to be dealt with. I am not sure what you mean about "outlets" or why that should matter. Are they near the flight path? Seems like a Theme Park that attracts millions would seem like a pretty good reason for CLD to atually get "major" service. And lastly..the single access point freeway argument can be switched around. Why subject one third of the county to commute south on a single access freeway to the most congested part of town just to fly on a one hour commute?
We're up.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:47 pm

DLSANMan wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
DLSANMan wrote:


I used to fly from TIJ 2x per month. Why??? I could fly AM to just about anywhere I needed to go in LATAM and I would occasionally fly them to AMS, MAD and CDG.
The price difference from SAN to GRU would save me about $8-12k per trip. (Business fare). The price difference to AMS was consistently $5k less. I like the flight coming from Europe all night. I would get a full days work in on Friday and be home Saturday by 10 am.


I have priced flights to Latin America (not that I can afford it or take the time to go, sadly, but I still dream!), and every time I do, TIJ-MEX-Whatever destination I am searching for comes up less expensive than UA, DL, or AA, period. Even including the CBX fees to avoid San Ysidro or Otay Mesa, it's still cheaper. I don't think SAN is ever going to be competitive with TIJ until COPA arrives.

And I know it's heresy, but maybe COPA would do well at TIJ instead of SAN: (a) proximity to San Diego & easy access via Cross-Border Xpress, (b) an unrestricted airport that allows for late-night departures, (c) possible lower fees from TIJ. Yes, I'd prefer to see the beautiful COPA plane landing at Lindbergh Field, but CM wouldn't be competing too much with AM at TIJ, given that most of TIJ's pax are Mexico-bound.




The challenge with Copa is they have a code share with AM. So technically they are already flying TIJ MeX. which I consider the SAN greater area. I doubt they will come to SAN anytime soon.
With HU to PEK it makes it challenging for anyone to start service from SAN to China. The sooner we could just partner, I think it would be better.


Actually, Copa has been in talks with SAN; however, both the lack of a suitable FIS/Customs window and now the MAX groundings have led them to postpone SAN for now.

In the code share with AM, however, Copa would be competing with AM in TIJ-Latin America routes, but not internal TIJ-Mexico routes. In fact, Copa would only be TIJ-PTY-South America, whereas AM can do TIJ-MEX-Central & South America.

The arrival time for the HU PEK-TIJ flight is in the afternoon, I have seen it fly directly over National City where I work on its way to TIJ. The departure time, on the other hand, is an atrocious 3:45 AM, but that is a non-stop. Anyone have any numbers on the SAN-side of the TIJ-PEK traffic?
 
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hawaiian717
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:48 pm

SANMAN66 wrote:
washingtonflyer wrote:
Speaking of exotic....someone is spending a nice weekend in SAN: CC-AYB is en route non-stop to SAN from SCL. That's a long flight.


Is that an airline? What kind of plane is it?


Gulfstream G550

 
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hawaiian717
Posts: 3352
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:53 pm

Coronado990 wrote:
Hey SANAV8R, I agree with all your points except CLD. You said...

"- Carlsbad is not a viable option. Between NIMBYs, the outlets, a theme park with nearly a million plus visitors every year, and a single access point from the freeway that is becoming increasingly congested, nobody is going to get any major service."

NIMBY's are going to be a factor at every airport so that will always have to be dealt with. I am not sure what you mean about "outlets" or why that should matter. Are they near the flight path? Seems like a Theme Park that attracts millions would seem like a pretty good reason for CLD to atually get "major" service. And lastly..the single access point freeway argument can be switched around. Why subject one third of the county to commute south on a single access freeway to the most congested part of town just to fly on a one hour commute?


Legoland and the outlet mall are due west of the airport. Eyeballing it on a map it looks like departures off 24 cross over the Legoland parking lot but would be just a little south of the outlets (probably more over the flower fields). Assuming a straight out departure.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:51 pm

How long is the runway at the Imperial Beach Naval Auxilary Landing Field? Can it handle an A319? Maybe some commuter flights can be moved there in the future?

In 60 years, could Lindbergh Field become slot-controlled? They will have to start thinking outside the box.
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:45 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Actually, Copa has been in talks with SAN; however, both the lack of a suitable FIS/Customs window and now the MAX groundings have led them to postpone SAN for now.

Maybe you're more up-to-date on the COPA situation than I am, PSA'. A couple of questions for you.

I was under the impression that the availability of FIS facilities at off-hours at SDIA was taken care of after Hampton's appeal to the SDCRAA board about securing funding for extended overtime compensation -- i.e., COPA could now land in SAN at midnight and their arrival would be handled by FIS. Is that still an issue?

As I reported somewhere up-thread, Kim Becker and Hampton (and others on the Route Planning team from SDIA) met with COPA Execs/Route Planners for a breakfast meeting; I don't know if that's what you're referring to by "COPA has been in talks with SAN" but whatever that breakfast was about, it was fairly recent. (I do know that the carrier and SAN have talked in the past and were very close to seeing COPA becoming a tenant at SDIA.)

Most importantly, you say the "MAX groundings have led them to postpone SAN for now". That implies that they were ready to announce and start the service SAN-PTY except for the MAXs being grounded which delayed the inaugural. Is that correct? Have you a source for that information?

bb
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 pm

Hi Bob! No, this is all stuff we have been discussing this year, and this is simply what I have heard throughout the year. I have no source other than a.net.

I'm only making an assumption that Copa had SAN in mind for expansion, not replacement, so whatever plane was going to be used is not available over an established route. Just my guess until such time as the MAX flies again, and airlines can't use that as a valid excuse or valid reason to halt expansion.

But I only know what you know.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:18 am

When will AA launch MIA-SAN? Does the A319 have enough range?

Are they waiting for the MAX issue to be resolved? Obviously the 738 is too big or else they would have launched the route a long time ago.
 
77H
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:29 am

washingtonflyer wrote:
SANMAN66 wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
Miramar is off the table because the Marines gave up El Toro instead. The Navy would need to find a new aircraft carrier homeport if North Island were to be converted to civilian use. I think Camp Pendleton has a lot of land.


The Marines nearly had a cow when it was proposed that Miramar could be shared with a civilian airport! (The Air Force does it all the time), The Marines were adamant about not sharing Miramar with a civilian airport. You also have to figure in the NIMBYs living near that area also. If the Marines refuse to share Miramar, then they would never be open to sharing Camp Pendleton either.


What Air Combat Command base shares operations with a -major- international airport. Minot doesn't count. In other words, what Air Force ACC base shares a runway with an airport that has 500+ commercial movements a day?

I


HNL immediately comes to mind. It shares facility’s with HIK (Hickam AFB) which in turn is part of Joint Base Pearl Harbor-Hickam. HNL is one of the busiest commercial airports in the country and Hickam AFB is one of the largest AFBs.

77H
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:12 am

blacksoviet wrote:
When will AA launch MIA-SAN? Does the A319 have enough range?
Are they waiting for the MAX issue to be resolved? Obviously the 738 is too big or else they would have launched the route a long time ago.

I'm sorry 'soviet, I usually ignore these questions of yours but once in a while...

Do you even know how to look up airline schedules? Tell you what, here's a link to AA.com: https://www.aa.com/travelInformation/flights/schedule
Try it out and see what you can find out.

(BTW, AA has been flying SAN-MIA nonstop for 6 years now... Currently they are using a 321 on the route.)

Please try a little harder my friend.

Sincerely,
bb
 
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Coronado990
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:14 am

blacksoviet wrote:
When will AA launch MIA-SAN? Does the A319 have enough range?

Are they waiting for the MAX issue to be resolved? Obviously the 738 is too big or else they would have launched the route a long time ago.


The A321 does and that is what AA is using on that route tonight.
We're up.
 
drmlnr1
Posts: 136
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:35 am

PacoMartin wrote:
In 2006 the committee started with 30 possibilities. They are listed in alphabetical order. Anything that can be dreamed up on this forum was in the list

Brown Field/Otay Mesa Study Area
Borrego Springs Campo/Boulevard Site
Camp Callan-Torrey Pines
Carmel Valley-Gonzales Canyon
El Toro
Corte Madera Valley Area
French Valley/Temecula
East Miramar
Gillespie Field
Imperial County Desert Site
March Air Reserve Base
Marine Corps Air Station (MCAS)
Miramar Site
McClellan-Palomar Airport Area
Mission Bay - Dredge-Fill
Mission Bay-San Diego River
Naval Air Station (NAS) North Island/SDIA Site
Montgomery Field
National City Bayfront Area Oceanside Area
Off-Shore Floating Airport --------------------------------------Very Japanese solution
Otay Mesa Area Rincon Indian Reservation
Ramona Area
Salt Marsh Naval Communications Station Area
San Diego International Airport
Silver Strand Area
Tijuana Rodriguez International Airport
Tijuana River Valley West
Ramona-Highland Valley
Warner Springs Area
West Ramona-Highland Valley


I would vote for a floating airport or east Miramar.
Flying is relaxing!
 
blacksoviet
Posts: 1207
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:32 am

SANFan wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
When will AA launch MIA-SAN? Does the A319 have enough range?
Are they waiting for the MAX issue to be resolved? Obviously the 738 is too big or else they would have launched the route a long time ago.

I'm sorry 'soviet, I usually ignore these questions of yours but once in a while...

Do you even know how to look up airline schedules? Tell you what, here's a link to AA.com: https://www.aa.com/travelInformation/flights/schedule
Try it out and see what you can find out.

(BTW, AA has been flying SAN-MIA nonstop for 6 years now... Currently they are using a 321 on the route.)

Please try a little harder my friend.

Sincerely,
bb

Wow. I never would have imagined that they could fill an A321 on that route. The A321 is turning into a real workhorse. How many passengers on that flight connect on to GIG/BSB/GRU?
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:14 am

77H wrote:
washingtonflyer wrote:
SANMAN66 wrote:

The Marines nearly had a cow when it was proposed that Miramar could be shared with a civilian airport! (The Air Force does it all the time), The Marines were adamant about not sharing Miramar with a civilian airport. You also have to figure in the NIMBYs living near that area also. If the Marines refuse to share Miramar, then they would never be open to sharing Camp Pendleton either.


What Air Combat Command base shares operations with a -major- international airport. Minot doesn't count. In other words, what Air Force ACC base shares a runway with an airport that has 500+ commercial movements a day?

I


HNL immediately comes to mind. It shares facility’s with HIK (Hickam AFB) which in turn is part of Joint Base Pearl Harbor-Hickam. HNL is one of the busiest commercial airports in the country and Hickam AFB is one of the largest AFBs.

77H


Not an Air Combat Command base.
 
redrooster3
Posts: 353
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:01 am

blacksoviet wrote:
Montgomery Executive Airport (MYF) has three runways. A 4 gate terminal can be built there allowing Allegiant, Jetblue, and Sun Country to shift all flights there. This will alllow for a smoother operation at SAN.

Runway 10L is 4598 ft long. This should be long enough for an A320 to depart to BOS.


Stop posting so much...I consider a post like this spam/troll.
Marry one of us, and you'll fly for free!
 
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Coronado990
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:39 pm

Eventually I think Miramar will be the winner. Maybe in 30-50 years from now, but eventually. Let's just thank the Marines for holding on to this precious piece of flat land because we all know it would be a sprawling suburban mess with having no hope what-so-ever of using this property as a civilian airport in the future.

In the meantime, keeping the pressure off Lindbergh will be the name of the game.
We're up.
 
SANMAN66
Posts: 867
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:17 pm

I'm not championing a larger airport like I used to. Since I saw that Lindbergh has proven to handle 747s, A340s, 787s, nonstop to Europe and Japan. 20 years ago we thought it was impossible to send a fully loaded 747 nonstop to Europe and widebodies nonstop to Tokyo from Lindbergh! It still feels a little surreal when likes of Lufthansa and Japan Airlines
now have regular flights out of SAN!
PSA Gives you a lift!
 
SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:35 pm

Coronado990 wrote:
Eventually I think Miramar will be the winner. Maybe in 30-50 years from now, but eventually. .


If Miramar becomes available in say, 30-50 years. It
might take another 10-20 years before they break ground on a new terminal there. They would have to
do an environmental cleanup, studies on noise impact, overcoming the lawsuits filed by the NIMBYs, etc.
PSA Gives you a lift!
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:18 pm

Environmental cleanup like we've never seen. The south side of Miramar was and continues to be the City of San Diego's dump. The amount and content of trash that was buried there will be incredibly expensive to remove and remediate. If you want example of the mess that garbage compaction causes, State Route 52 proves it.
 
77H
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:35 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
77H wrote:
washingtonflyer wrote:

What Air Combat Command base shares operations with a -major- international airport. Minot doesn't count. In other words, what Air Force ACC base shares a runway with an airport that has 500+ commercial movements a day?

I


HNL immediately comes to mind. It shares facility’s with HIK (Hickam AFB) which in turn is part of Joint Base Pearl Harbor-Hickam. HNL is one of the busiest commercial airports in the country and Hickam AFB is one of the largest AFBs.

77H


Not an Air Combat Command base.


HIK is one of 10 current Air Combat Command bases... There aren’t any current ACCBs in California though...

77H
 
PA91
Posts: 5
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:08 am

Coronado990 wrote:
Wo ist Edelweiss? Has Edelweiss been cancelled again?. I do not see them in flightaware today Fri Aug 16. If so, that should pretty much tell you how things will go next year.


One of WK's A343 (HB-JMF) is AOG (ground collision in YVR; AC B788 taxiing by badly damaged the tail of the A343) forcing WK to adjust their flight schedule on short notice. According to my information WK will fly to SAN during the Summer 2020 Season.
 
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rjsampson
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:23 pm

Hey guys... San Diego native here. I pretty much see every plane that lands in the evening (walking the dog at Balboa). So quick question about a daily flight I see:

Around 6pm every evening, I see the San Antonio Sewer Pipe landing. (For those unfamiliar: That's a Fairchild Swearingen Metroliner). Is that a charter? Airline? Cargo?

Pretty rare site anywhere in the continental US. Does anyone know?
"..your eyes will be forever turned skyward, for there.." yeah we know the DaVinci quote. But GA is so dang expensive these days! :(
 
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Coronado990
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:27 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
Environmental cleanup like we've never seen. The south side of Miramar was and continues to be the City of San Diego's dump. The amount and content of trash that was buried there will be incredibly expensive to remove and remediate. If you want example of the mess that garbage compaction causes, State Route 52 proves it.


I believe the proposed runways would be east of the landfill and south of the present KNKX runway set up. It would, however, interfere with the Cabrillo Freeway (163) and I-15 interchange. As a side note, isn't CLD built on a landfill?
We're up.
 
cheapflier
Posts: 11
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:50 am

rjsampson wrote:
Hey guys... San Diego native here. I pretty much see every plane that lands in the evening (walking the dog at Balboa). So quick question about a daily flight I see:

Around 6pm every evening, I see the San Antonio Sewer Pipe landing. (For those unfamiliar: That's a Fairchild Swearingen Metroliner). Is that a charter? Airline? Cargo?

Pretty rare site anywhere in the continental US. Does anyone know?


I think you're referring to the Ameriflight cargo plane. If I'm not mistaken, it moves cargo from El Centro, San Diego and Ontario for UPS and other clients.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/AMF ... /KIPL/KSAN
 
airplaneboy
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Re: San Diego Aviation Operations ATADS

Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:18 am

PacoMartin wrote:
Gate Utilization Rate (Operations) First half of 2019 compared to 2018 and % change.
Terminal 1 East 9.7 9.4 4.0%
Terminal 1 West 2.2 5.5 -59.6%
Terminal 2 East 6.9 4.1 67.5%
Terminal 2 West 4.0 3.9 2.6%
Terminal 2 FIS 1.0 1.1 -13.2%


I believe I read a while back that WN had requested more gates than they received with the move of AS to T2. T1’s gate utilization is obviously the highest (by a large margin) due to WN’s operation. Why would the airport not provide WN more gates when they clearly need more for an ideal operation with the 120 plus daily flights they operate? With many flights in SAN on WN operating on the larger 175 seat 737-800, it seems that 12 gates leaves little room for recovery during irregular operations.
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: San Diego Aviation Operations ATADS

Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:09 pm

airplaneboy wrote:
T1’s gate utilization is obviously the highest (by a large margin) due to WN’s operation.


Domestic Gate Utilization Rate (Passengers per day ) Year 2018
11 Terminal 1 East 2,270
8 Terminal 1 West 1,238
10 Terminal 2 East 1,064
19 Terminal 2 West 1,047
48 Domestic Gates Average 1,363

3 Foreign flights Gates 335 passengers per day in 2018.

If Southwest were to take over all 19 gates in terminal #1, they would be average 1,313 passengers per gate per day, which is only 50 below the average of all domestic operations.

I'm surprised there are no nationwide statistics on gate utilization (per airport per terminal), so we could easily see if this is unusual. What they do in London's Heathrow and Gatwick is let you check in your luggage in the city, get your boarding passes and then ride the train to the airport. You still have to go through personal luggage security check at the airport.

airplaneboy wrote:
Why would the airport not provide WN more gates when they clearly need more for an ideal operation with the 120 plus daily flights they operate?


Not up on airport politics to that level. SAN airport is much more an origin and destination airport than most of the other 30 airports that carry 1% or more of the nation's traffic. Personally, I think the Airport Authority is not serving the community well by turning the airport into a dining and boutique mini mall.

TERMINAL 1
Southwest Airlines 800.435.9792 4:15 AM - 12:00 AM NONSTOP TO
Allegiant Air 702.505.8888 2 Hours prior to scheduled departure NONSTOP TO
Frontier Airlines 800.432.1359 4:10 AM – 7:10AM; 9:15 AM – 12:15 PM; 7:30PM – 1:30 AM NONSTOP TO
JetBlue Airways 800.538.2583 9:15AM - 1:30PM Sunday - Friday (Closed Sat AM); 7:15PM - 10:30PM Daily NONSTOP TO
Spirit Airlines 801.401.2222 5:15 AM - 1:25 PM; 4:15PM - 8:25PM NONSTOP TO
Sun Country Airlines 800.359.6786 10:30AM - 1:00PM Sun-Fri Closed Saturday
===============
TERMINAL 2
Alaska Airlines 800.252.7522 4:00 AM - 12:00 AM NONSTOP TO
American Airlines 800.433.7300 4:00 AM - 12:00 AM NONSTOP TO
Delta Airlines 800.455.2720 4:00 AM - 12:00 AM NONSTOP TO
Hawaiian Airlines 800.367.5320 2 Hours prior to flight departure NONSTOP TO
United Airlines 800.864.8331 4:00 AM - 12:00 AM NONSTOP TO
.
Air Canada 888.247.2262 3 Hours prior to scheduled departure NONSTOP TO
WestJet 888.937.8538 8:30 AM -12:30 PM (closed T,Th)
.
British Airways 800.247.9297 SUN-THU 2:30 PM - 6:15 PM; FRI-SAT 3:15 PM - 6:45 PM NONSTOP TO
Edelweiss Air 877.359.7947 4 hours prior to flight departure NONSTOP TO
Lufthansa 800.645.3880 3 hours prior to departure NONSTOP TO
Japan Airlines 800.525.3663 8:40 AM -11:00 AM NONSTOP TO
 
LAOCA
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:18 pm

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:25 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
Why did Delta stop flying the MD-90 to MSP?


Delta is almost exclusively flying A320/321 and 757s into SAN now. The one exception is the random 717 flight to and from LAX.
 
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SANFan
Posts: 5063
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:23 pm

LAOCA wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
Why did Delta stop flying the MD-90 to MSP?


Delta is almost exclusively flying A320/321 and 757s into SAN now. The one exception is the random 717 flight to and from LAX.

And I think in January, when HA downgrades HNL to a 321, we will see no more domestic widebodies, correct? DL and HA were the last to do so. At least we kept domestic widebody service somewhat longer than many non-hub cities!

Too bad but thank goodness for our int'l cx.

bb
 
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DLSANMan
Posts: 31
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:33 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
I see two expansions possible:

#1 move the cargo operations on the north side of the field to Brown Field (SDM). The number of aircraft movements are minimal, and Fed Ex, UPS, Airborne/DHL, etc. all have sizeable existing operations near the border of Brown owing to the existence of the Otay cargo crossing. The runway at SDM is 8,000 feet so it has ample length. I recognize that there are mountains a few miles to the east of SDM, but that would not preclude some nuanced approaches to ensure a landing there or would not preclude downwind landings on 8L provided that the tailwind does not exceed limitations on the cargo jets there (mostly 767s and A300s). This would free up space northside for RON parking, a new terminal, or hardstands.

#2 more challenging, but should from an efficiency standpoint be more reasonable, close MCRD San Diego. The fact of the matter is that while the Marine Corps loves MCRD San Diego, its an ancient facility and its cramped/limited in operation. 1/2 of the training that Marine recruits undergo happen at Camp Pendleton anyhow. So, why not just shutter the Depot, move ALL recruit training to Pendleton, and convert -some- of the land aboard the Depot for use as a second runway. I am sure certain of the buildings at the Depot are registered historic landmarks, but there is enough parade ground and obstacle course land to build close spaced parallel or slightly offset runway. The fact of the matter is the Department of the Navy happily closed NTC San Diego and transferred recruit training to Great Lakes; they can do the same for MCRD.




SDM is currently in negotiations with US Navy and SD Port Authority. I bet I know who will win that battle. Right now SDM is an extension of Coronado. Everything I am being told (married to the source) is that we can count out SDM being an extension of SAN.

Good thing the airport has its own set of strategist. I think our speculation is just that.
 
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DLSANMan
Posts: 31
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:42 pm

LAOCA wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
Why did Delta stop flying the MD-90 to MSP?


Delta is almost exclusively flying A320/321 and 757s into SAN now. The one exception is the random 717 flight to and from LAX.



The only 75’s for Delta are JFK.
SEA is 100% 320
ATL, DTW, MSP 100% 321 - see occasional 753 in rotation depending on time of year.
LAX 320 (changes next month) 717 dropped and E175 (Compass will shift to OO)
SLC mixed 320 and 321

I wonder if JFK will move to 321 making SAN 100% airbus?

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