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San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:45 pm
by PSAatSAN4Ever
Okay, I'm thirteen days early, I know. But we knew it would begin soon enough...

To continue the topic of all thing SAN for 2019, I'll kick it off with news of the closure of the north-side economy lot on Pacific Highway:

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/San-Diego-International-Airport-to-Close-Economy-Lot-503138661.html?fbclid=IwAR3MGeyJ0cfpeLSpF-8JNmFBl0Eb5SYlIu9-UW3CpZSY9KiSechdXQiCl-k

To paraphrase, the last relatively-inexpensive lot will close the day after Christmas and become the new employee parking lot.

It makes me wonder if there should be a thread about the future of distant short-term parking at airports - is it becoming a thing of the past? With Uber and Lyft in the U.S. gaining such ground, will airports begin to phase out these lower-profit lots?

I am looking forward to a year of interesting discussions!! Happy 2019 to all!!

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:59 am
by atcsundevil
Please continue from last year's discussion.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1382837

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:16 am
by tmiw
Some bad news from California Pacific Airlines: https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/ ... 42271.html

I'm thinking they won't last through 2019 but hopefully I'm wrong.

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:00 pm
by SANFan
Happy New Year everyone! I hope 2019 will be good to all of us!

Here're 2 posting from the SDU-T (local newspaper) from today, including the links to each, both of which relate bad news on topics most of us care about..

8. San Diego airport expansion

A $3 billion plan to redevelop the San Diego International Airport, including an 11-gate expansion of the aging Terminal 1, may face delays next year as regional agencies figure out how to connect transit lines to Lindbergh Field. The Airport Authority planned to break ground in 2020, but pressure by multiple government entities for a mass transit connection to the airport could push back a groundbreaking. Work on an airport transit plan is expected to begin in earnest next year, with ideas ranging from an elevated shuttle to a pedestrian bridge.

Link: http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/bus ... ft06a-4li2


December 28, 2018
San Diego County’s newest airline will not end the year on a high note — or in the air.

California Pacific Airlines, based in Carlsbad, said Friday that it would halt West Coast operations in January because of a pilot shortage. It called the move a “temporary pause on operations,” but did not give a firm deadline for when it would resume operations, only that it would start again once it had sufficient crew.

Link to entire article: http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/bus ... story.html [Sorry tmiw, I didn't notice the same article from a different source.]

I also saw an artivcle just a day or two ago stating that CPAir was placing an extra a/c at CLD in order to improve performance on the west coast ops. I couldn't find that article today...


Now that the bad news is out of the way, hopefully nothing but good news concerning our little/big airport will follow!

bb

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:10 pm
by PSAatSAN4Ever
https://san.org/Airport-Projects/Airport-Development-Plan#1155274-ceo-message-

Well, it's been "approximately" 30 days (I know, I know, the holidays), but hopefully the hope the momentum promised shows up and construction can begin soon on the replacement of Terminal 1 and Terminal 2 West.

Is this the actual plan for SAN? Or are we still in discussions for the redevelopment?

Image

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:17 pm
by blacksoviet
SANFan wrote:
Happy New Year everyone! I hope 2019 will be good to all of us!

Here're 2 posting from the SDU-T (local newspaper) from today, including the links to each, both of which relate bad news on topics most of us care about..

8. San Diego airport expansion

A $3 billion plan to redevelop the San Diego International Airport, including an 11-gate expansion of the aging Terminal 1, may face delays next year as regional agencies figure out how to connect transit lines to Lindbergh Field. The Airport Authority planned to break ground in 2020, but pressure by multiple government entities for a mass transit connection to the airport could push back a groundbreaking. Work on an airport transit plan is expected to begin in earnest next year, with ideas ranging from an elevated shuttle to a pedestrian bridge.

Link: http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/bus ... ft06a-4li2


December 28, 2018
San Diego County’s newest airline will not end the year on a high note — or in the air.

California Pacific Airlines, based in Carlsbad, said Friday that it would halt West Coast operations in January because of a pilot shortage. It called the move a “temporary pause on operations,” but did not give a firm deadline for when it would resume operations, only that it would start again once it had sufficient crew.

Link to entire article: http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/bus ... story.html [Sorry tmiw, I didn't notice the same article from a different source.]

I also saw an artivcle just a day or two ago stating that CPAir was placing an extra a/c at CLD in order to improve performance on the west coast ops. I couldn't find that article today...


Now that the bad news is out of the way, hopefully nothing but good news concerning our little/big airport will follow!

bb

Will the 11 gate Terminal 1 expansion use the same headhouse as the current Terminal 1?

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:36 pm
by SANMAN66
It's been pretty windy here today. I've noticed all the aircraft are doing runway-9 takeoffs.

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:06 pm
by amadorE175
blacksoviet wrote:
SANFan wrote:
Happy New Year everyone! I hope 2019 will be good to all of us!

Here're 2 posting from the SDU-T (local newspaper) from today, including the links to each, both of which relate bad news on topics most of us care about..

8. San Diego airport expansion

A $3 billion plan to redevelop the San Diego International Airport, including an 11-gate expansion of the aging Terminal 1, may face delays next year as regional agencies figure out how to connect transit lines to Lindbergh Field. The Airport Authority planned to break ground in 2020, but pressure by multiple government entities for a mass transit connection to the airport could push back a groundbreaking. Work on an airport transit plan is expected to begin in earnest next year, with ideas ranging from an elevated shuttle to a pedestrian bridge.

Link: http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/bus ... ft06a-4li2


December 28, 2018
San Diego County’s newest airline will not end the year on a high note — or in the air.

California Pacific Airlines, based in Carlsbad, said Friday that it would halt West Coast operations in January because of a pilot shortage. It called the move a “temporary pause on operations,” but did not give a firm deadline for when it would resume operations, only that it would start again once it had sufficient crew.

Link to entire article: http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/bus ... story.html [Sorry tmiw, I didn't notice the same article from a different source.]

I also saw an artivcle just a day or two ago stating that CPAir was placing an extra a/c at CLD in order to improve performance on the west coast ops. I couldn't find that article today...


Now that the bad news is out of the way, hopefully nothing but good news concerning our little/big airport will follow!

bb

Will the 11 gate Terminal 1 expansion use the same headhouse as the current Terminal 1?


It will not. The plan is to build an entirely new T1 using, first, the land where the former commuter terminal is and, second, build the remainder of the terminal on the ground where the current T1 sits.

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:14 pm
by williaminsd
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
https://san.org/Airport-Projects/Airport-Development-Plan#1155274-ceo-message-

Well, it's been "approximately" 30 days (I know, I know, the holidays), but hopefully the hope the momentum promised shows up and construction can begin soon on the replacement of Terminal 1 and Terminal 2 West.

Is this the actual plan for SAN? Or are we still in discussions for the redevelopment?

Image


One comment and a question:

1) Delighted that T2E gets the wreckers' ball in development plan as shown in the exhibit. It is easily one of the worst terminals in the country.

2) SOHO is already marshaling forces to keep the existing, Brutalist, T1 facade in place for any replacement/remodel. Even a cursory look at the T1 replacement options shows that to be difficult, if not impossible. I typically believe in adaptive-reuse with much of our firm's work involved in this model in one form or another, but with the airport being so physically constrained, particularly the terminal/concourse footprints, I can't see it working to a satisfactory conclusion in this case.

What are the thoughts here?

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:39 am
by 777Surfer
Just filmed BA 273 arriving on RWY 9 from MCRD. Spectacular evening for plane spotting here in SAN. Happy New Year everyone!
https://youtu.be/0KvUdKbt3K8

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:23 am
by PSAatSAN4Ever
777Surfer wrote:
Just filmed BA 273 arriving on RWY 9 from MCRD. Spectacular evening for plane spotting here in SAN. Happy New Year everyone!
https://youtu.be/0KvUdKbt3K8


WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now THAT'S a close-up!!

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:24 am
by GG22
According to this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd_ZY2JQrXo 'Delta started bringing back MD-80s in May-Late July 2018'.
However it's just the DL MD-90 service from MSP, isn't it?

I guess the last regular MD-80 visitors were Allegiant (until 2017?) and American (until 2015?)?

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:15 pm
by airevents
Hello you lucky people in sunny San Diego,

I am just doing a bit of research on San Diego´s international routes. Do I remember correctly that BA operated to LHR via Las Vegas in the past? When was it switched to non-stop service?

Also, what do you think would be the most likely future international (longhaul) routes out of SAN? I could see a city in China like Shanghai or Beijing, Seoul or a Skyteam hub like Amsterdam or Paris. What are your thoughts?

Greetings from chilly Germany!

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:27 pm
by SonomaFlyer
airevents wrote:
Hello you lucky people in sunny San Diego,

I am just doing a bit of research on San Diego´s international routes. Do I remember correctly that BA operated to LHR via Las Vegas in the past? When was it switched to non-stop service?

Also, what do you think would be the most likely future international (longhaul) routes out of SAN? I could see a city in China like Shanghai or Beijing, Seoul or a Skyteam hub like Amsterdam or Paris. What are your thoughts?

Greetings from chilly Germany!


IIRC the BA LHR service used to be via PHX though happy to be corrected if needed. As far as new international service, I'd see AMS over CDG for European destinations. Asia would be a China destination though Seoul is possible. Part depends on how badly the Chinese economy tanks.

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:37 pm
by SANAV8R
airevents wrote:
Hello you lucky people in sunny San Diego,

I am just doing a bit of research on San Diego´s international routes. Do I remember correctly that BA operated to LHR via Las Vegas in the past? When was it switched to non-stop service?

Also, what do you think would be the most likely future international (longhaul) routes out of SAN? I could see a city in China like Shanghai or Beijing, Seoul or a Skyteam hub like Amsterdam or Paris. What are your thoughts?

Greetings from chilly Germany!


Oh it’s sunny but it’s been chilly here.

June 2011: BA restarts nonstop to SAN to LHR
October 2003: Direct flights to London from San Diego are dropped, due to poor financial performance after 9/11, especially in business class.
March 2001: British Airways introduces nonstop San Diego-London service. (772 equipment was introduced at some point around here)
Late 90s: Equipment upgraded to 744.
July 1996: British Airways re-launches San Diego-London Gatwick service -- with a stop in Phoenix with DC-10
November 1990: British Airways discontinues service to San Diego, when Iraq's invasion of Kuwait causes a worldwide spike in fuel costs.
May 1988: British Airways introduces flights to San Diego from London's Gatwick Airport. (There’s a pic in the A.net photo library of a 742 landing at SAN). I think British Caledonian sought the route originally extending their LAX service



I think the SDAA has actively been seeking a second Asian carrier. I’d like to see ICN service as it would provide excellent connections to SE Asia (particularly Philippines and Vietnam)

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:38 pm
by Schmave
777Surfer wrote:
Just filmed BA 273 arriving on RWY 9 from MCRD. Spectacular evening for plane spotting here in SAN. Happy New Year everyone!
https://youtu.be/0KvUdKbt3K8


Aw I must have just missed that one. I was over at Liberty Station on 1/1 and took pics of some of the planes coming in on a reverse pattern. We ended up eating dinner down there and must have gone in the restaurant just before that 744 showed up. Rats.

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:44 pm
by Schmave
SANAV8R wrote:
I think the SDAA has actively been seeking a second Asian carrier. I’d like to see ICN service as it would provide excellent connections to SE Asia (particularly Philippines and Vietnam)


Yes it would be awesome if KE started up SAN-ICN. That would make it easier for anyone in the Delta/Skyteam camp to travel to Asia. Same for Europe, it would be nice if either KL or AF started SAN-AMS or SAN-CDG. A 787 would probably work on the route.

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:09 pm
by blacksoviet
Does the Air India 777-200LR have enough range to fly from SAN to Delhi?

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:17 pm
by SANFan
airevents wrote:
Hello you lucky people in sunny San Diego,
I am just doing a bit of research on San Diego´s international routes. Do I remember correctly that BA operated to LHR via Las Vegas in the past? When was it switched to non-stop service?
Also, what do you think would be the most likely future international (longhaul) routes out of SAN? I could see a city in China like Shanghai or Beijing, Seoul or a Skyteam hub like Amsterdam or Paris. What are your thoughts?
Greetings from chilly Germany!

Brief history of BA(inc BCal) in SAN: (Service has been daily most of the time.)
Jan 1988 - BCal began daily SAN-LGW service on 747s with a stop in LAX;
Nov 1989 - BA (absorbs BR) and starts D10 service via LA; service ended in 1990;
Jul 1996 - BA re-starts Gatwick service via PHX using D10s;
Mar 1998 - service (still via PHX) upgraded to 747;
Mar 2001 - first nonstop service to LGW using B777;
Oct 2002 - service switched to Heathrow, and ended Oct 2003. [FYI, Zoom (ZX) flew nonstop SAN-LGW between Jun and Aug 2008 before shutting down.]
Jun 2011 - (final) re-start of daily nonstop service to Heathrow on T7-200. (This was the 1st new US-route by BA following approval of the JV with AA & IB!)
Mar 2016 - daily 747 Speedbird service commences on the route;
Mar 2017 - daily 773 service replaces the 747 seasonally. The service appears to switch between 747 and 773 seasonally thru current.

Hope this helps you.

IMO: I expect we'll see another large Euro Flag carrier with a major hub in Europe perhaps in 2020; my bet would be on KLM. We will hopefully see another Asian cx soon at SAN but I think the next new int'l service from SAN will be to Central America. Hopefully we could even see this happen in 2019.

bb

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:24 pm
by Schmave
blacksoviet wrote:
Does the Air India 777-200LR have enough range to fly from SAN to Delhi?


Maybe? I don't know how runway length would affect the 77L. However, they don't even fly to LAX, so surely they won't fly to SAN.

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:27 pm
by SANFan
Sorry SANAV8R, I didn't mean to step on your post. I had started my post a while back and got interrupted and didn't check before finishing and posting it.

And nice shot of BCal's 747 landing here!

bb

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:07 pm
by SANAV8R
SANFan wrote:
Sorry SANAV8R, I didn't mean to step on your post. I had started my post a while back and got interrupted and didn't check before finishing and posting it.

And nice shot of BCal's 747 landing here!

bb


No worries, you had the better timeline.

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:15 pm
by SANAV8R
SANFan wrote:
Sorry SANAV8R, I didn't mean to step on your post. I had started my post a while back and got interrupted and didn't check before finishing and posting it.

And nice shot of BCal's 747 landing here!

bb


No worries, you had the more accurate timeline of service dates.

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:28 am
by SonomaFlyer
Schmave wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
Does the Air India 777-200LR have enough range to fly from SAN to Delhi?


Maybe? I don't know how runway length would affect the 77L. However, they don't even fly to LAX, so surely they won't fly to SAN.


Range isn't an issue for the 77L. No way AI could make $$ on this flight and given one engine performance considerations, I think the 77L would take a decent penalty given the stage length and the length of the runway.

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:52 am
by SANFan
A couple of random things to report.

I checked the upcoming Edelweiss skeds for this summer and found that maybe things have not been that great for the SAN-ZRH service. Last year, WK had scheduled SAN service from late March thru mid-November with 66 r/t offered. (I'm trying to verify if they actually flew that many flights, into November; I think perhaps they didn't.)

In any case, for 2019, they currently have 35 flights scheduled here between late May and mid-September. Gulp! I can only assume that it's questionable if WK will be back in SAN in 2020. I would be disappointed to see them pull out of SAN (they are part of the LH family after all) just as I would hate to see any int'l routes end. Fingers crossed that WK is happy with the pax loads to and from SAN and will remain a tenant of SDIA for the long term.

I also found out today that SAN was, in 2018, the 3rd largest destination of AS award travel, behind only PHX and LAS. Here's the link to the blog reporting this fact:
https://blog.alaskaair.com/alaska-airli ... ions-2018/

Pretty nice I think. This is a nice feather in the cap of one of two AS Focus Cities!

bb

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:57 pm
by SANMAN66
SANAV8R wrote:
I think British Caledonian sought the route originally


I remember British Caledonian alternating on certain days between a 747 and a DC-10. I loved British Caledonian's logo, really classy!

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:03 pm
by Samfam1000
Hello. I hope I am responding correctly to this post. I've been a follower of BA/Bcal into SAN since I first read about it in the San Diego Union in about 1986 or so. Before merger with BA was announced they (Bcal) wanted to service SAN with direct service to LGW back then with a stop in LAX. I have some clarifications based on my following this service. See below.


SANFan wrote:
airevents wrote:
Hello you lucky people in sunny San Diego,
I am just doing a bit of research on San Diego´s international routes. Do I remember correctly that BA operated to LHR via Las Vegas in the past? When was it switched to non-stop service?
Also, what do you think would be the most likely future international (longhaul) routes out of SAN? I could see a city in China like Shanghai or Beijing, Seoul or a Skyteam hub like Amsterdam or Paris. What are your thoughts?
Greetings from chilly Germany!

Brief history of BA(inc BCal) in SAN: (Service has been daily most of the time.)
Jan 1988 - BCal began daily SAN-LGW service on 747s with a stop in LAX;

Service was BA since it was completed about 1987. It started in June of 1988 and I watched the first flight arrive on 27. The service was daily, with 4x weekly 747 and 3x weekly D10. The 747s were always painted in Bcal colors since BA eventually got rid of them because they were not compatible with BA's 747. The D10s were both in Bcal colors and BA colors since BA decided to integrate them into the BA fleet.

When the service first started, there was an issue with the FIS facility in T1E (were current Gate 1a-2 are located). Since it had not been used in a few years and did not meet federal standards. Pax from LGW had to clear customs at LAX and then reboard for the continuation to SAN. It took about 2 or so months to rectify the FIS facility and then pax cleared customs in SAN. The flight would arrive at gates 1-2 in T1E and descend via stairs to the tarmac and into the tiny FIS facility. The planed would be towed to gates 6-7 (not sure which) in T1E and pax would board via jet bridge. BA's check in was in T1E, where SW is currently located.

Service became fully D10 from winter 1988 through spring 1990, then switched to 747 full time through the summer schedule of 1990. I took this flight in May so it was cool to take off in a 747 from SAN. I got to clear customs in SAN and I must say, the facility pretty much sucked. BA announced in October that the SAN portion of the flight would be discontinued in November of 1990. Service to LAX remained however.

Nov 1989 - BA (absorbs BR) and starts D10 service via LA; service ended in 1990;
Jul 1996 - BA re-starts Gatwick service via PHX using D10s;

Interesting note here is that pax would clear customs in PHX, then reboard to continue to SAN. Not sure if this was because how bad the facility was or because BA did not want the expense of towing the plane from T1E to T2E (where BA located too during this service). BA did build a lounge called "Terrace" in the old baggage claim facility in T2E. Just a quick note, there was no T2E at the time, the new addition to T2 was not constructed at the time T2E was just called the west terminal and T1 was the east terminal.


Mar 1998 - service (still via PHX) upgraded to 747;
Mar 2001 - first nonstop service to LGW using B777;

After completion of the now T2w concourse (in 1998), the airport did a small reconstruction of T2E to add 1 new gate (gate 20) and make gates 20-22 capable of handling international arrivals.

Oct 2002 - service switched to Heathrow, and ended Oct 2003. [FYI, Zoom (ZX) flew nonstop SAN-LGW between Jun and Aug 2008 before shutting down.]
Jun 2011 - (final) re-start of daily nonstop service to Heathrow on T7-200. (This was the 1st new US-route by BA following approval of the JV with AA & IB!)
Mar 2016 - daily 747 Speedbird service commences on the route;
Mar 2017 - daily 773 service replaces the 747 seasonally. The service appears to switch between 747 and 773 seasonally thru current.

Hope this helps you.

IMO: I expect we'll see another large Euro Flag carrier with a major hub in Europe perhaps in 2020; my bet would be on KLM. We will hopefully see another Asian cx soon at SAN but I think the next new int'l service from SAN will be to Central America. Hopefully we could even see this happen in 2019.

bb

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:37 pm
by skyblu
777Surfer wrote:
Just filmed BA 273 arriving on RWY 9 from MCRD. Spectacular evening for plane spotting here in SAN. Happy New Year everyone!
https://youtu.be/0KvUdKbt3K8


Cool! I love spotting from Liberty Station when RWY 9 is being used.

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:52 pm
by airevents
Another question from me: is there an airside connection between T1 and T2? Can passengers connect from, say, a Southwest flight arriving in T1 to a Delta flight operating from T2, without clearing TSA once more? I understand from what I read in this thread that even within T1 sometimes they have to clear security again. So I doubt an airside transfer between T1 and T2 is possible?

Thanks for enlightening me.

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:26 pm
by PSAatSAN4Ever
airevents wrote:
Another question from me: is there an airside connection between T1 and T2? Can passengers connect from, say, a Southwest flight arriving in T1 to a Delta flight operating from T2, without clearing TSA once more? I understand from what I read in this thread that even within T1 sometimes they have to clear security again. So I doubt an airside transfer between T1 and T2 is possible?

Thanks for enlightening me.


Nope. Separate buildings completely. Even the two banjos in T1 are not connected airside to each other, nor are gates 1, 1A, and 2. Given also the extremely cramped conditions in the banjos, Terminal 1 is very ready to be retired and go out of this world with dignity. But that can't happen until a new terminal is built with enough gates to replace the current facilities with no loss in gate space.

The plan, however, is to eventually connect the new Terminal 1 to Terminal 2, thus having every gate at the airport connected post-security.

Thanks also to those who beat me to such a fun topic, the history of SAN-London service. Ten years ago, there was nothing. Today business is booming!

I am a bit saddened by the seeming-cutback of Edelweiss Air's season in San Diego. I had the pleasure of taking this flight in early July, 2017, in premium economy, and would do it again in a heartbeat! (Insert a shameless plug here for my trip report here.) Given last year's schedule, I had hoped that for 2019 to fly them home in October, but at least I can say I have flown this plane and route once. I'll just have to settle for a 787-8 on United via SFO...

But perhaps this might also be the LH group looking at and crunching numbers and seeing that Edelweiss isn't the best fit for their planes, and perhaps, like Condor, something will return in its place. I am crossing my fingers so hard that our LH service here becomes FRA x5 and MUC x2 on the non-FRA days. I correctly predicted that Condor was a test of the market and LH's replacement on the route meant there was indeed enough of a premium demand to warrant Lufthansa here all year-round. Cross your fingers!!

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:03 pm
by airevents
Just a reminder for those reading the post here, Condor has for a long time not been part of the Lufthansa Group. Back in the day, they may have been the airline to "test the waters" for the entire group, but that is no longer the case. It has happened a few times in recent years that Condor has started a new route to the US and then LH came in, offered more frequencies and Condor simply left. Same here apparently.

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:00 am
by SANFan
Hey gang, I just noticed a sort of good-news/bad-news situation taking place this summer at our beautiful new FIS.

First, and perhaps this is more like GREAT news, the current version of LH's Summer Timetable (featuring the new LH color scheme), effective March 31, shows flight LH467 as oping X25 with a 346! (LH466 also shows up as a '346'.) Link: http://www.oim.de/timetable/lh/index.php?lang=en
BTW, the "Build your own timetable" function on that same page ALSO shows SAN's flights as 346s -- it appears to me that it's on all 5 days!!

I have no idea if this is all correct or not but the whole LH/aircraft question has been kind of a confusing one. Could this be another change? Does this mean all 5 days might be on 346s? I'll try to do a bit more research to find out the latest on the LH equipment roulette unless someone already knows what's really going to happen this summer. Needless to say, I would be really excited if we ARE going to be seeing the Big Lady here at SAN on a regular basis, all summer long!

As for the other part of the news, it turns out WK will op on Tue/Fri this season so the LH Group has finally gotten to the point of 1 flight each day of the week between their 2 cx. (So the 'bad" news is that we won't have a chance of seeing the LH and the WK birds here at the same time.)

bb

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:42 am
by SANMAN66
airevents wrote:
. It has happened a few times in recent years that Condor has started a new route to the US and then LH came in, offered more frequencies and Condor simply left. Same here apparently.


I read in another post that the same thing happened in Austin. Condor was there providing service until Lufthansa showed up, and Condor flew the coop.

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:03 pm
by Samfam1000
Sadly, it appears to be all 343's for LH out SAN this summer. Just did a dummy booking at the LH site and it showed all 343's :-(. We shouldn't complain however, since 5x weekly 343 is better than 0x weekly on anything else.

SANFan wrote:
Hey gang, I just noticed a sort of good-news/bad-news situation taking place this summer at our beautiful new FIS.

First, and perhaps this is more like GREAT news, the current version of LH's Summer Timetable (featuring the new LH color scheme), effective March 31, shows flight LH467 as oping X25 with a 346! (LH466 also shows up as a '346'.) Link: http://www.oim.de/timetable/lh/index.php?lang=en
BTW, the "Build your own timetable" function on that same page ALSO shows SAN's flights as 346s -- it appears to me that it's on all 5 days!!

I have no idea if this is all correct or not but the whole LH/aircraft question has been kind of a confusing one. Could this be another change? Does this mean all 5 days might be on 346s? I'll try to do a bit more research to find out the latest on the LH equipment roulette unless someone already knows what's really going to happen this summer. Needless to say, I would be really excited if we ARE going to be seeing the Big Lady here at SAN on a regular basis, all summer long!

As for the other part of the news, it turns out WK will op on Tue/Fri this season so the LH Group has finally gotten to the point of 1 flight each day of the week between their 2 cx. (So the 'bad" news is that we won't have a chance of seeing the LH and the WK birds here at the same time.)

bb

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:41 pm
by jplatts
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Nope. Separate buildings completely. Even the two banjos in T1 are not connected airside to each other, nor are gates 1, 1A, and 2. Given also the extremely cramped conditions in the banjos, Terminal 1 is very ready to be retired and go out of this world with dignity. But that can't happen until a new terminal is built with enough gates to replace the current facilities with no loss in gate space.

The plan, however, is to eventually connect the new Terminal 1 to Terminal 2, thus having every gate at the airport connected post-security.


How is WN going to be getting connecting passengers between the 2 gate areas in Terminal 1 at SAN when it starts nonstop service to Hawaii from SAN? WN is likely going to be offering connections to AUS, MDW, DAL, DEN, HOU, MCI, LAS, PHX, and SAT from Hawaii through SAN by Summer 2019.

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:21 pm
by SANFan
Samfam1000 wrote:
Sadly, it appears to be all 343's for LH out SAN this summer. Just did a dummy booking at the LH site and it showed all 343's :-(. We shouldn't complain however, since 5x weekly 343 is better than 0x weekly on anything else.

Bummer. I'm going to continue to hold out a shred of hope for 346s -- just a feeling -- but of course you're right Sam' -- I'd still be happy if LH flew only a 319 here! :)

bb

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:24 pm
by PSAatSAN4Ever
jplatts wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Nope. Separate buildings completely. Even the two banjos in T1 are not connected airside to each other, nor are gates 1, 1A, and 2. Given also the extremely cramped conditions in the banjos, Terminal 1 is very ready to be retired and go out of this world with dignity. But that can't happen until a new terminal is built with enough gates to replace the current facilities with no loss in gate space.

The plan, however, is to eventually connect the new Terminal 1 to Terminal 2, thus having every gate at the airport connected post-security.


How is WN going to be getting connecting passengers between the 2 gate areas in Terminal 1 at SAN when it starts nonstop service to Hawaii from SAN? WN is likely going to be offering connections to AUS, MDW, DAL, DEN, HOU, MCI, LAS, PHX, and SAT from Hawaii through SAN by Summer 2019.


It is my understanding that all Hawai'i flights will leave from the "western" Banjo (I will refer to this as Terminal 1 West), whereas most of its gates are in the "eastern" banjo (Terminal 1 East), along with the "eastern" spur (gates 1, 1A, & 2 in Terminal 1 East, not connected to the other gates airside). This means a three-way split between operations. Many people arriving at 1/1A/2 are shocked to find they have to re-clear security to make their Southwest-to-Southwest connection.So unless Southwest offers a shuttle on the tarmac between the two banjos, every single Hawai'i-bound passenger transferring at SAN will have to leave the secure area, cross through the pedestrian walkway, and re-clear security to access their plane.

I have been told by more than one employee that when Terminal 2 West was completed, Southwest got first dibs - and they turned it down. They wanted to be closest to the departure end of the runway (99% of the time), so they "agreed" to wait for the new Terminal 1. I don't know how much of that is true, but I do know that they are maxed out on space at SAN, and the new Terminal 1 can't come soon enough.

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:12 pm
by SANMAN66
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Given also the extremely cramped conditions in the banjos,


That's funny! I've never heard anyone call T-1 the "banjos," I've only heard people refer to T-1 as the "circle of death!"

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:25 pm
by SANFan
And when the terminal was built back in the 1960s, the round concourses were referred to as the east and west "rotundas",

The question that I still ask is, will WN shortly possess the entire terminal (1) -- along with maybe F9 -- as the rumor recently suggested? AS vacates T1W in a bit over 3 weeks and WN is scheduled to op 130 flights next June. Personally, I tend to believe the rumor which suggested that WN will soon have 15 operational gates plus some "spares", (gates 1-1A-2.)

bb

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:44 pm
by blacksoviet
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
jplatts wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Nope. Separate buildings completely. Even the two banjos in T1 are not connected airside to each other, nor are gates 1, 1A, and 2. Given also the extremely cramped conditions in the banjos, Terminal 1 is very ready to be retired and go out of this world with dignity. But that can't happen until a new terminal is built with enough gates to replace the current facilities with no loss in gate space.

The plan, however, is to eventually connect the new Terminal 1 to Terminal 2, thus having every gate at the airport connected post-security.


How is WN going to be getting connecting passengers between the 2 gate areas in Terminal 1 at SAN when it starts nonstop service to Hawaii from SAN? WN is likely going to be offering connections to AUS, MDW, DAL, DEN, HOU, MCI, LAS, PHX, and SAT from Hawaii through SAN by Summer 2019.


It is my understanding that all Hawai'i flights will leave from the "western" Banjo (I will refer to this as Terminal 1 West), whereas most of its gates are in the "eastern" banjo (Terminal 1 East), along with the "eastern" spur (gates 1, 1A, & 2 in Terminal 1 East, not connected to the other gates airside). This means a three-way split between operations. Many people arriving at 1/1A/2 are shocked to find they have to re-clear security to make their Southwest-to-Southwest connection.So unless Southwest offers a shuttle on the tarmac between the two banjos, every single Hawai'i-bound passenger transferring at SAN will have to leave the secure area, cross through the pedestrian walkway, and re-clear security to access their plane.

I have been told by more than one employee that when Terminal 2 West was completed, Southwest got first dibs - and they turned it down. They wanted to be closest to the departure end of the runway (99% of the time), so they "agreed" to wait for the new Terminal 1. I don't know how much of that is true, but I do know that they are maxed out on space at SAN, and the new Terminal 1 can't come soon enough.

Will Gate 11 continue to be used by turboprops when necessary?

Once Southwest gets the western banjo they should have plenty of gates. They could modify the jetways at Gate 11 and Gate 10 by adding stairs to the tarmac and setup an outdoor walkway similar to what TWA did to connect Terminal 6 to Terminal 5 at JFK in the 1990s. There is no need to run a shuttle between the two banjos. They are close enough to be connected airside with a covered walkway. The walk would be less than two minutes.

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:50 am
by blacksoviet
What gate does Allegiant use at SAN?

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:11 am
by SANMAN66
blacksoviet wrote:
What gate does Allegiant use at SAN?

If I recall, Allegiant uses a gate in T-2E. It may have changed recently.

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:32 am
by SANFan
blacksoviet wrote:
Will Gate 11 continue to be used by turboprops when necessary?

I doubt it. AS would likely be the only carrier at SAN to schedule turboprops and the chances are VERY unlikely that will ever happen. They could relatively easily make arrangements at one of their gates in T2E to board Q400s if it ever did become necessary in the future. If any new carrier came to town, well, who knows?

If Frontier stays in T1, which I'm guessing they will, I don't know if they would continue to use gate 12, or move to 11, or somehow start using gates 1 & 1A maybe? Otherwise, I'm sure they could find a new home somewhere in T2. I have no idea if they plan any significant growth at SAN that would require them to use even 2 gates fulltime, let alone more.

blacksoviet wrote:
Once Southwest gets the western banjo they should have plenty of gates. They could modify the jetways at Gate 11 and Gate 10 by adding stairs to the tarmac and setup an outdoor walkway similar to what TWA did to connect Terminal 6 to Terminal 5 at JFK in the 1990s. There is no need to run a shuttle between the two banjos. They are close enough to be connected airside with a covered walkway. The walk would be less than two minutes.

I don't think your plan will work (and it hasn't been done yet even tho WN is already using some gates in T1W for some ops.)

The main problem is that the T1 baggage claim area is located in between T1W and T1E, with constant baggage carts entering and leaving the main building right where you propose a simple walkway connecting the 2 concourses. So right away, you'd have to elevate the walkway above all the tarmac (vehicle) activity. And elevating it would be swell -- and would eliminate necessary stairs, escalators and elevators -- but time and budget would, I'm sure, eliminate this option. I doubt that anyone concerned, from the airport to Southwest Airlines, is interested in spending any money on a very temporary fix for the problem. (Although I definitely think they should!)

And this is why I continue to feel that some sort of vehicle shuttle between T1W & E is the most sensible, the quickest to implement, and the cheapest way for WN to get connecting pax back and forth between their 2 terminal areas. There would still need to be some sort of stairways and elevators involved (which may already exist) to get people downstairs in both concourses to catch the tarmac-level shuttle to the other concourse.

I just very seriously hope that WN and/or the airport will work to set up some sort of connection between the 2 rotundas; they simply cannot force online connecting pax to have to clear TSA just to complete their connections. If that awful practice continues, WN needs to stop using SAN for connections, including to/from Mexico & Hawaii. Period.

bb

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:29 am
by blacksoviet
SANFan wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
Will Gate 11 continue to be used by turboprops when necessary?

I doubt it. AS would likely be the only carrier at SAN to schedule turboprops and the chances are VERY unlikely that will ever happen. They could relatively easily make arrangements at one of their gates in T2E to board Q400s if it ever did become necessary in the future. If any new carrier came to town, well, who knows?

If Frontier stays in T1, which I'm guessing they will, I don't know if they would continue to use gate 12, or move to 11, or somehow start using gates 1 & 1A maybe? Otherwise, I'm sure they could find a new home somewhere in T2. I have no idea if they plan any significant growth at SAN that would require them to use even 2 gates fulltime, let alone more.

blacksoviet wrote:
Once Southwest gets the western banjo they should have plenty of gates. They could modify the jetways at Gate 11 and Gate 10 by adding stairs to the tarmac and setup an outdoor walkway similar to what TWA did to connect Terminal 6 to Terminal 5 at JFK in the 1990s. There is no need to run a shuttle between the two banjos. They are close enough to be connected airside with a covered walkway. The walk would be less than two minutes.

I don't think your plan will work (and it hasn't been done yet even tho WN is already using some gates in T1W for some ops.)

The main problem is that the T1 baggage claim area is located in between T1W and T1E, with constant baggage carts entering and leaving the main building right where you propose a simple walkway connecting the 2 concourses. So right away, you'd have to elevate the walkway above all the tarmac (vehicle) activity. And elevating it would be swell -- and would eliminate necessary stairs, escalators and elevators -- but time and budget would, I'm sure, eliminate this option. I doubt that anyone concerned, from the airport to Southwest Airlines, is interested in spending any money on a very temporary fix for the problem. (Although I definitely think they should!)

And this is why I continue to feel that some sort of vehicle shuttle between T1W & E is the most sensible, the quickest to implement, and the cheapest way for WN to get connecting pax back and forth between their 2 terminal areas. There would still need to be some sort of stairways and elevators involved (which may already exist) to get people downstairs in both concourses to catch the tarmac-level shuttle to the other concourse.

I just very seriously hope that WN and/or the airport will work to set up some sort of connection between the 2 rotundas; they simply cannot force online connecting pax to have to clear TSA just to complete their connections. If that awful practice continues, WN needs to stop using SAN for connections, including to/from Mexico & Hawaii. Period.

bb

Can the Frontier A321 fit into Gate 11? If not, then I guess Frontier will have to stay at Gate 12. They could also move to the Eastern Spur. I believe Gate 2 can handle a A321.

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:50 am
by mikeyp224
SANMAN66 wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
What gate does Allegiant use at SAN?

If I recall, Allegiant uses a gate in T-2E. It may have changed recently.


That is correct. Allegiant is still using gate 30.

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:52 am
by mikeyp224
SANFan wrote:
Samfam1000 wrote:
Sadly, it appears to be all 343's for LH out SAN this summer. Just did a dummy booking at the LH site and it showed all 343's :-(. We shouldn't complain however, since 5x weekly 343 is better than 0x weekly on anything else.

Bummer. I'm going to continue to hold out a shred of hope for 346s -- just a feeling -- but of course you're right Sam' -- I'd still be happy if LH flew only a 319 here! :)

bb


I am with you on this one, SANFan! I am definitely holding out hope for the A346! Not that I am not grateful for international service at KSAN, but the A346 is just so much better to look at than the A343, IMHO!

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:27 am
by blacksoviet
Does anybody have a list of all the airlines currently operating out of Terminal 2 East? Are Gates 20, 21, and 22 still connected to FIS?

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:12 am
by SANFan
blacksoviet wrote:
Does anybody have a list of all the airlines currently operating out of Terminal 2 East? Are Gates 20, 21, and 22 still connected to FIS?

You can find out a lot of answers on the SAN.org website, in this case, on the interactive map page. Here's a direct link to that page:
https://sanmap.san.org/Html5Viewer/Inde ... wer=sanmap

For clarification, SAN's FIS facilities are at the far west end of Terminal 2, at gates 48 thru 51; all gates in Terminal 2E, #s 20 thru 32, are nowhere near the FIS Facilities and have nothing to do with them... As you can see on the map, there are currently 2 cx operating ticket counters in T2E, and AS will join them by February.

blacksoviet wrote:
Can the Frontier A321 fit into Gate 11? If not, then I guess Frontier will have to stay at Gate 12. They could also move to the Eastern Spur. I believe Gate 2 can handle a A321.

The main problem with WN's (or anyone's) use of gate 2 is that it very much crowds gate 3 (on the rotunda.) I'm not sure that WN can currently use those 2 gates at the same time! Perhaps Silver1SWA can jump in and explain the situation with gates 1-1A-2 regarding WN. He would know first-hand!

I see no reason why F9 wouldn't just keep using gate 12 and allow WN to use all the others in T1W, including 11. That assumes a single gate will continue to meet their needs but if they have an occasional overflow situation, I'm sure there would be an open gate somewhere in that rotunda. .

I mentioned the possibility of F9 maybe using gates1 and 1A in the event that they grew and needed 1< gate, and they would have that entire small end of the terminal all to themselves. I suspect gate 2 would be useable only in the most serious gate gridlock cases and only as a last resort. Then WN could have gates 11-18 (T1W) all to themselves.

The only problem would be that F9's ticket counter would either stay where it is -- at the west end of T1, making a bit of a walk for their pax from check-in to boarding -- or squeeze it in east of the current WN counters (not very much room.) But chances are all this is already being worked out between the airport, F9 and WN...

bb

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:37 pm
by hawaiian717
I have to say moving Frontier to 1/1A/2 and giving Southwest both rotundas makes sense. It would mean Southwest would only have two separate security zones to deal with instead of three, and there's more space to try and assign gates to keep the most popular connections on the same side. It would also make sense for Southwest to give up some of their counter space on the east side and take over ticket counter space on the west side (presuming they're not already taking Alaska's) to provide counters close to both gate areas. I would think Allegiant and/or Sun Country could fit into 1/1A/2 as well. Or perhaps Spirit, though I think they're busy enough that they'd need the whole thing to themselves.

But then I'm the guy who thought Skybus (who had an anti-jetbridge thing) would be a perfect fit for Gate 19.

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:40 pm
by Silver1SWA
SANFan wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
Can the Frontier A321 fit into Gate 11? If not, then I guess Frontier will have to stay at Gate 12. They could also move to the Eastern Spur. I believe Gate 2 can handle a A321.

The main problem with WN's (or anyone's) use of gate 2 is that it very much crowds gate 3 (on the rotunda.) I'm not sure that WN can currently use those 2 gates at the same time! Perhaps Silver1SWA can jump in and explain the situation with gates 1-1A-2 regarding WN. He would know first-hand!



WN briefly ran -800s out of gate 2 when they first entered the fleet but because of the significant uphill grade it became a tipping risk. I believe the stop mark was moved up a bit to avoid conflict with gate 3 but it really is very tight at 2 and 3 with the current configuration. So 1A, 1 and 2 are -700s only.

That said, there are plans to significantly expand our T-Point (Bag Room) which will extend into the gate 2 ramp space and last I heard (plans keep delaying/changing) gate 2 will be eliminated.

I’ve heard rumors of 1A and 1 going to another airline like Frontier but I have no idea how that would work.