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LAXintl
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Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:35 pm

Delta has asked the DOT to allow flexibility for Haneda slot holders to operate service from any U.S. gateway where such carriers hold underlying route authority.

Without providing any specifics about its own plans, DL argues having the flexibility apply both to current and future awarded Haneda slots would allow it to be an even stronger competitor to the AA/JL and NH/UA joint ventures and better meet needs of traveling and shipping customers.

DL states the DOT existing policy of gateway specificity on Haneda routes is harmful to competition and consumers and, therefore, contrary to the public interest.

DOT-OST-2016-0048

Lets see what competing carriers say, and also how the DOT which has tried carefully to spread awards out over multiple gateways feels.
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piedmontf284000
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:42 pm

Cannot see the DOT allowing an airline to just pick up one route, for which they were awarded based primarily on lack of routes in that region, and moving it to another city where it would be more successful (ie. NYC, LAX). If the DOT allows this it will open pandora's box for other routes.
 
toltommy
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:46 pm

Didn't everyone get their knickers in a twist when AA wanted to move a HAV slot from CLT to MIA?
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SFOtoORD
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:47 pm

You can’t hate Delta for trying to serve their own interests, but their abuse of the Haneda route authorities has been atrocious.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:52 pm

Delta seems to have a destination. But it's the origin they seem to have a problem with. They wanted a hub at SEATAC and they built it. So why not fly from there? Or is the right hub MSP or DTW? Maybe Atlanta?? Hell! the way they're going it could be LAX!!
 
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enilria
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:56 pm

Pretty obviously this is to move MSP. As I’ve been speculating, Delta will probably only get 2 more HND slots in the new negotiation. They can close NRT if they can move MSP to ATL and get two more for DTW/SEA. I suspect the Hawaii services would go away completely.
 
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UPlog
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:57 pm

I suspect MSP-HND must be a dog. Or maybe even LAX-HND with so many carriers in the market including 2 to HND itself.
 
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:03 pm

UPlog wrote:
I suspect MSP-HND must be a dog. Or maybe even LAX-HND with so many carriers in the market including 2 to HND itself.


Three to Haneda - American, ANA and Delta.
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janders
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:04 pm

Removing U.S. gateways would go against long-standing policy whereby the DOT has weighed each airlines route proposals while also trying to spread opportunities geographically.
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zakuivcustom
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:06 pm

This has "Delta is looking to move MSP-HND somewhere (SEA? ATL?), but if they wish, they can fly that route again" all over it. MSP does stand out like a sore thumb compare to all the other destinations that has a HND flight anyway (The only smaller market, PDEW-wise, is probably VIE, and that flight is not even operating yet).
 
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:10 pm

MSP-HND is an odd route. It runs high loads on Friday-Sunday and suffers the rest of the week. It did better to NRT even though HND is a much more convienent airport to Tokyo city center.
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jrkmsp
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:18 pm

It's worth noting this filing is actually in the context of the NEXT round of HND authorities. To be sure, it does request gateway flexibility for new and past authorities, but it makes the request in the context of newly awarded routes, expected sometime in 2019.
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:20 pm

DTW will not be awarded a slot unless they give up the flight to NRT.
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:32 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:

This has "Delta is looking to move MSP-HND somewhere (SEA? ATL?), but if they wish, they can fly that route again" all over it. MSP does stand out like a sore thumb compare to all the other destinations that has a HND flight anyway (The only smaller market, PDEW-wise, is probably VIE, and that flight is not even operating yet).


I might be missing something but what does VIE have to do with HND-USA? Typo?
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jbs2886
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:43 pm

jrkmsp wrote:
It's worth noting this filing is actually in the context of the NEXT round of HND authorities. To be sure, it does request gateway flexibility for new and past authorities, but it makes the request in the context of newly awarded routes, expected sometime in 2019.


This really needs to be in the original post...it is an important fact that will be lost on most people. See, e.g., the MSP discussion.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:49 pm

I hope the DOT doesn't give this one second of thought. Delta has abused their HND authorities from the very beginning. And SEA and DTW should not be awarded again. Delta tried HND from those gateways and then pulled out. Maybe give them one HND award for ATL. And make it clear to Delta then any funny business will result in the immediate loss of the authority.

In all honesty Hawaiian is the only airline truly deserving of more HND slots. They're the only US airline that has actually kept their word and used the authority as originally intended.
 
chonetsao
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:53 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:

This has "Delta is looking to move MSP-HND somewhere (SEA? ATL?), but if they wish, they can fly that route again" all over it. MSP does stand out like a sore thumb compare to all the other destinations that has a HND flight anyway (The only smaller market, PDEW-wise, is probably VIE, and that flight is not even operating yet).


I might be missing something but what does VIE have to do with HND-USA? Typo?


I think zakuivcustom is trying to say that MSP is the least PDEW destination from HND among all HND destinations. And one is less which is VIE but no flight yet. It is in the context of HND rather than HNDUSA specific. But it provides a comparison in the context that MSP has the lowest HND PDEW period.
 
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:57 pm

toltommy wrote:
Didn't everyone get their knickers in a twist when AA wanted to move a HAV slot from CLT to MIA?

It is not a slot, it is a frequency. Slots are for airport arrival and departure times. Frequencies are for countries. This is a frequency.
 
C010T3
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:09 pm

We all knew this was coming the second Delta applied for MSP-HND. Even if they are successful at obtaining flexibility, they will stay put until the new frequencies are allocated.
 
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:18 pm

Snowball has a better chance than this DL antics.

You would think they would at least go along with the program and not tick off the DOT, but they are so arrogant DL thinks they can dictate what a Federal Government entity can do. How stupid can they be? Looks like pretty much zero brain cells.
 
FSDan
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:22 pm

If you toss out any history from before daytime flying to HND was allowed, how many times has DL actually moved slots around? Not more than once, IIRC. It seems unfair to me to fault DL for failing in DTW-HND previously or to fault AA for failing in JFK-HND since those flights were flown when the only available times at HND for U.S. flights were between 2300 and 0600 (or something like that). Of course those flights were bound to fail! A flight from the U.S. to LHR would probably fail too if the operating hours were restricted to a similar timeframe! So, while DL certainly did a lot of route shuffling in the early days of U.S.-HND flying, I see that as directly related to the fact that they had non-viable operating windows, and had to try whatever they could think of that might work (and only LAX-HND worked given those timings). That shouldn't count against DL (or AA) in any future award.

I agree with the posters speculating that DL wants to move MSP-HND to another gateway. I think three MSP-Asia flights (MSP-HND, MSP-ICN, planned MSP-PVG) would be too much. However, I'm not fully convinced yet that DL wants to 100% pull out of NRT. In addition to theoretically dropping MSP-HND and using that authority plus two new authorities to move SEA, DTW, and ATL flights to HND, DL would also need to drop HNL-NRT, NRT-MNL, NRT-SIN, and PDX-NRT. I could certainly see NRT-MNL and NRT-SIN falling by the wayside. But I don't see DL dropping HNL-NRT unless they decide they don't want to do Japan-Hawai'i flying anymore at all, and by all accounts PDX-NRT is important for corporate contracts with Nike and maybe some other big PDX-area clients. I think it's just as likely that DL wants to get back in the NYC-TYO market to have a better offering for corporate clients in New York, which wouldn't be competitive unless they could fly JFK-HND.
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janders
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:50 pm

Besides DTW also dropped SEA-HND.
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Web500sjc
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:58 pm

Were the frequencies awarded to DL because they were to MSP/SEA/DTW or were they awarded to DL because the DOT wanted to maintain pairity between the airline alliances?
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FSDan
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:10 am

janders wrote:
Besides DTW also dropped SEA-HND.


Yeah, but that was also before daytime HND flying was allowed for DL. As of March, 2015, the schedule was something like:

SEA-HND 7:35pm arrive 10:15pm
HND-SEA 12:05am arrive 5:10pm

My view is that route failures/moves prior to daytime slots at HND opening up to U.S. carriers shouldn't have any bearing on future awards for HND rights, unless those rights are also going to be for ridiculous operating hours.
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FSDan
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:14 am

Web500sjc wrote:
Were the frequencies awarded to DL because they were to MSP/SEA/DTW or were they awarded to DL because the DOT wanted to maintain pairity between the airline alliances?


It was a mix. Partially to even things out between alliances/JVs, partially because DL was planning on operating larger 744s on the routes (which didn't last long given the paltry demand for nighttime flights to HND), and partially for geographic diversity in the HND->U.S. route portfolio.
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zakuivcustom
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:15 am

chonetsao wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:

This has "Delta is looking to move MSP-HND somewhere (SEA? ATL?), but if they wish, they can fly that route again" all over it. MSP does stand out like a sore thumb compare to all the other destinations that has a HND flight anyway (The only smaller market, PDEW-wise, is probably VIE, and that flight is not even operating yet).


I might be missing something but what does VIE have to do with HND-USA? Typo?


I think zakuivcustom is trying to say that MSP is the least PDEW destination from HND among all HND destinations. And one is less which is VIE but no flight yet. It is in the context of HND rather than HNDUSA specific. But it provides a comparison in the context that MSP has the lowest HND PDEW period.


Indeed that's what I meant. Of course, I don't have exact number, so I can be totally wrong. And I did forgot to mention that I'm referring to int'l destination, b/c I'm 100% sure that less people fly something like HND-MBE (Monbetsu, Japan, served by a daily A320) than HND-MSP.

But just looking at int'l market, especially long-haul:
Europe: LHR, CDG, FRA, MUC, and soon VIE
AusNZ: SYD
N. America (Inc. Hawaii): HNL, KOA, LAX, SFO, YVR, YYZ, ORD, JFK, and of course, MSP.
Might as well throw in DXB and DOH also.

The only airports out of all of the above that only have 1 daily flight total, if you include NRT also, are MSP and YYZ. YYZ is definitely a larger market than MSP, and I believe AC stop flying NRT-YYZ only to use that slot for NRT-YUL.

Oh, and DL MSP-HND is the only flight that have zero feed on Japan side, not even domestic connection.
Last edited by zakuivcustom on Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:17 am

FSDan wrote:
If you toss out any history from before daytime flying to HND was allowed, how many times has DL actually moved slots around? Not more than once, IIRC. It seems unfair to me to fault DL for failing in DTW-HND previously or to fault AA for failing in JFK-HND since those flights were flown when the only available times at HND for U.S. flights were between 2300 and 0600 (or something like that). Of course those flights were bound to fail! A flight from the U.S. to LHR would probably fail too if the operating hours were restricted to a similar timeframe! So, while DL certainly did a lot of route shuffling in the early days of U.S.-HND flying, I see that as directly related to the fact that they had non-viable operating windows, and had to try whatever they could think of that might work (and only LAX-HND worked given those timings). That shouldn't count against DL (or AA) in any future award.

I agree with the posters speculating that DL wants to move MSP-HND to another gateway. I think three MSP-Asia flights (MSP-HND, MSP-ICN, planned MSP-PVG) would be too much. However, I'm not fully convinced yet that DL wants to 100% pull out of NRT. In addition to theoretically dropping MSP-HND and using that authority plus two new authorities to move SEA, DTW, and ATL flights to HND, DL would also need to drop HNL-NRT, NRT-MNL, NRT-SIN, and PDX-NRT. I could certainly see NRT-MNL and NRT-SIN falling by the wayside. But I don't see DL dropping HNL-NRT unless they decide they don't want to do Japan-Hawai'i flying anymore at all, and by all accounts PDX-NRT is important for corporate contracts with Nike and maybe some other big PDX-area clients. I think it's just as likely that DL wants to get back in the NYC-TYO market to have a better offering for corporate clients in New York, which wouldn't be competitive unless they could fly JFK-HND.


How often do Nike employees need to travel to Tokyo? Surely they can afford Netjets. That's got to be cheaper then the massive subsidy they pay Delta. With no feed on either end of PDX-NRT it would be an absolute dog without the subsidy.
 
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:39 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
FSDan wrote:
If you toss out any history from before daytime flying to HND was allowed, how many times has DL actually moved slots around? Not more than once, IIRC. It seems unfair to me to fault DL for failing in DTW-HND previously or to fault AA for failing in JFK-HND since those flights were flown when the only available times at HND for U.S. flights were between 2300 and 0600 (or something like that). Of course those flights were bound to fail! A flight from the U.S. to LHR would probably fail too if the operating hours were restricted to a similar timeframe! So, while DL certainly did a lot of route shuffling in the early days of U.S.-HND flying, I see that as directly related to the fact that they had non-viable operating windows, and had to try whatever they could think of that might work (and only LAX-HND worked given those timings). That shouldn't count against DL (or AA) in any future award.

I agree with the posters speculating that DL wants to move MSP-HND to another gateway. I think three MSP-Asia flights (MSP-HND, MSP-ICN, planned MSP-PVG) would be too much. However, I'm not fully convinced yet that DL wants to 100% pull out of NRT. In addition to theoretically dropping MSP-HND and using that authority plus two new authorities to move SEA, DTW, and ATL flights to HND, DL would also need to drop HNL-NRT, NRT-MNL, NRT-SIN, and PDX-NRT. I could certainly see NRT-MNL and NRT-SIN falling by the wayside. But I don't see DL dropping HNL-NRT unless they decide they don't want to do Japan-Hawai'i flying anymore at all, and by all accounts PDX-NRT is important for corporate contracts with Nike and maybe some other big PDX-area clients. I think it's just as likely that DL wants to get back in the NYC-TYO market to have a better offering for corporate clients in New York, which wouldn't be competitive unless they could fly JFK-HND.


How often do Nike employees need to travel to Tokyo? Surely they can afford Netjets. That's got to be cheaper then the massive subsidy they pay Delta. With no feed on either end of PDX-NRT it would be an absolute dog without the subsidy.


Not as often as people may think that they do. Nike does far more business in China. Nike doesn't need netjets, they have a dedicated fleet of Gulfstreams that cris-cross the globe annually.

The Nike Air Force is based in the private Nike jet facility out of Hillsboro Oregon (HIO). N-NIKE is one registration, I pass the glass hanger often & always look to see how many are there at any given time.

There is no subsidy paid to Delta to operate their PDX-NRT flight. There may have been at first, an amount paid to NW to re-start PDX-NRT after DL first left the market, but the current DL operation is self supporting with mostly O/D traffic. There has never been a significant amount of connecting traffic. It has been discussed often in these DL TYO threads.
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doug_or
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:14 am

RWA380 wrote:
The Nike Air Force is based in the private Nike jet facility out of Hillsboro Oregon (HIO). N-NIKE is one registration, I pass the glass hanger often & always look to see how many are there at any given time.

There is no subsidy paid to Delta to operate their PDX-NRT flight. There may have been at first, an amount paid to NW to re-start PDX-NRT after DL first left the market, but the current DL operation is self supporting with mostly O/D traffic. There has never been a significant amount of connecting traffic. It has been discussed often in these DL TYO threads.


Minor quibbles, but it is actually N1KE (US aircraft registrations start with N and can have up to two additional letters, both at the end), and Delta did briefly get a winter subsidy to keep the NRT flight going during the recession. I don't remember if it was paid by the city, state, or PoP.
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kavok
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:53 am

A little bit of history...

In 2008, Japan announced they were opening Haneda Airport for a limited number of US-Japan flights, on the restriction that flights must arrive/depart HND between 2200 and 0700 local time. Four slots were granted to Japanese Carriers, and four to US carriers. The initial 2010 winners on the US side were (AA to JFK, DL to LAX, DL to DTW, HA to HNL). It was soon realized that the nighttime slots were not ideal for multiple reasons, including: 1) Many business pax preferred to take the train ride to NRT and fly out at normal business hours, as opposed to overnight arrivals/departures at HND, 2) the overnight slots didn't work timing wise for onward connections at the US airports, 3) 2010 the economy was just coming out of the recession, so flight demand was much lower than it is today. Long story short, the flights didn't work for any US or Japanese carrier to any destination that wasn't HNL, SFO, or LAX.

For the reasons above, AA couldn't make any money flying from JFK, and returned their slot to the DOT. UA applied for the slot, and began flying it from SFO. Just like AA at JFK, DL tried to make DTW work, but couldn't for the same reasons mentioned above. Hoping for better luck on the west coast, DL moved the flight to SEA. It still lost money, and DL tried things like flying it less than daily, and restarting again before eventually giving the slot back to the DOT. AA eventually picked up that returned DL slot, and joined DL flying HND-LAX at night. Note that in the end, the only 3 US airports that could make the HND nighttime slots work (for all US or Japanese carriers) were LAX, SFO, and HNL.

Moving ahead to 2016, Japan and the US DOT agreed to 6 HND slots for each nation's carriers, with 1 nighttime slot and 5 daytime slots up for grabs. HA was the only airline that formally applied for the nighttime slot, and thus was awarded HND-HNL. The US DOT held a selection process, where each airline could submit their preferred choices for the daytime slots. AA, DL, HA, and UA all applied, with the first choice being the location of their existing nighttime slot. The US DOT gave each carrier their first choice (AA to LAX, DL to LAX, HA to HNL, and UA to SFO), leaving one slot remaining. DL won that last slot, which was HND-MSP.

The essential runner up in the process was AA to DFW, and as such there were stipulations put in place that if DL moved their MSP flight to another location, down gauged the aircraft, or reduced frequencies, that the slot would go to AA at DFW. However, as mentioned, DL has not once moved their slots since the daytime slots were awarded. This brings us today, and what this filing is about. Essentially DL is asking the DOT permission to move HND slots around. And while it may be applicable to the new slots set to be awarded in 2020, it is likely that the rule would also be applied to previously awarded slots as well, should the DOT approve. (Note also, the rumors have suggested that four additional daytime HND slots would be added in 2020 for US carriers).
 
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:44 am

doug_or wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
The Nike Air Force is based in the private Nike jet facility out of Hillsboro Oregon (HIO). N-NIKE is one registration, I pass the glass hanger often & always look to see how many are there at any given time.

There is no subsidy paid to Delta to operate their PDX-NRT flight. There may have been at first, an amount paid to NW to re-start PDX-NRT after DL first left the market, but the current DL operation is self supporting with mostly O/D traffic. There has never been a significant amount of connecting traffic. It has been discussed often in these DL TYO threads.


Minor quibbles, but it is actually N1KE (US aircraft registrations start with N and can have up to two additional letters, both at the end), and Delta did briefly get a winter subsidy to keep the NRT flight going during the recession. I don't remember if it was paid by the city, state, or PoP.


No quibble, thanks for the correction, I will look closer next time I pass by, If DL got a subsidy, it's the first I've heard about it, which is totally normal, but Nike does not provide any subsidy to Delta & it's not that great of a contract given the financials that DL needs to keep the flight operating, it's about capturing a large part of the market share that may otherwise go via SEA, SFO or YVR.

There is a fair amount of exchange between Japan & Oregon, my old boss Sho Dozono was instrumental in obtaining the non-stop & maintaining it as well with trade missions.
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deltal1011man
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:47 am

LAXintl wrote:
Delta has asked the DOT to allow flexibility for Haneda slot holders to operate service from any U.S. gateway where such carriers hold underlying route authority.

Without providing any specifics about its own plans, DL argues having the flexibility apply both to current and future awarded Haneda slots would allow it to be an even stronger competitor to the AA/JL and NH/UA joint ventures and better meet needs of traveling and shipping customers.

DL states the DOT existing policy of gateway specificity on Haneda routes is harmful to competition and consumers and, therefore, contrary to the public interest.

DOT-OST-2016-0048

Lets see what competing carriers say, and also how the DOT which has tried carefully to spread awards out over multiple gateways feels.

People don't think open skies by like it is, but it do.


but nothing will change because the US-Japan "open skies" is the fakest open skies that has ever existed.
 
kavok
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:04 am

To be honest, I am more surprised by the fact that DL is asking for this now. I was fully expecting something like this from DL, but expected the request to come after the new slots were awarded. Reason being, DL is (arguably) at an advantage over AA/UA when it comes to arguing the need for their sites to the DOT because of geographical balance. With the PacNW and Southeast not being served currently by any carrier from HND, asking for ATL and SEA for geographical reasons would seem to work in DL's favor. Conversely, almost any of the likely UA or AA requested locations (sans DFW) would be in geographical locations with existing HND service. Like I said, surprised DL is asking for this now and not later.
 
Sightseer
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:41 am

If I remember right, wasn't DL "locked in" to flying MSP-HND at a set frequency and capacity for a certain time frame (I want to say two years), or else AA would get the rights for DFW instead? Does this request correspond to that timeline?
 
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Web500sjc
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:42 am

Asking for this now would make the new slot allocation all about gauge and airline and remove cities From the decision process.
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c933103
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:05 am

The MSP-HND was wasting the resource of HND and should probably be relocated immediately
Say NO to Hong Kong police's cooperation with criminal organizations like triad.
 
jayunited
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:53 am

kavok wrote:
A little bit of history...

In 2008, Japan announced they were opening Haneda Airport for a limited number of US-Japan flights, on the restriction that flights must arrive/depart HND between 2200 and 0700 local time. Four slots were granted to Japanese Carriers, and four to US carriers. The initial 2010 winners on the US side were (AA to JFK, DL to LAX, DL to DTW, HA to HNL). It was soon realized that the nighttime slots were not ideal for multiple reasons, including: 1) Many business pax preferred to take the train ride to NRT and fly out at normal business hours, as opposed to overnight arrivals/departures at HND, 2) the overnight slots didn't work timing wise for onward connections at the US airports, 3) 2010 the economy was just coming out of the recession, so flight demand was much lower than it is today. Long story short, the flights didn't work for any US or Japanese carrier to any destination that wasn't HNL, SFO, or LAX.

For the reasons above, AA couldn't make any money flying from JFK, and returned their slot to the DOT. UA applied for the slot, and began flying it from SFO. Just like AA at JFK, DL tried to make DTW work, but couldn't for the same reasons mentioned above. Hoping for better luck on the west coast, DL moved the flight to SEA. It still lost money, and DL tried things like flying it less than daily, and restarting again before eventually giving the slot back to the DOT. AA eventually picked up that returned DL slot, and joined DL flying HND-LAX at night. Note that in the end, the only 3 US airports that could make the HND nighttime slots work (for all US or Japanese carriers) were LAX, SFO, and HNL.

Moving ahead to 2016, Japan and the US DOT agreed to 6 HND slots for each nation's carriers, with 1 nighttime slot and 5 daytime slots up for grabs. HA was the only airline that formally applied for the nighttime slot, and thus was awarded HND-HNL. The US DOT held a selection process, where each airline could submit their preferred choices for the daytime slots. AA, DL, HA, and UA all applied, with the first choice being the location of their existing nighttime slot. The US DOT gave each carrier their first choice (AA to LAX, DL to LAX, HA to HNL, and UA to SFO), leaving one slot remaining. DL won that last slot, which was HND-MSP.

The essential runner up in the process was AA to DFW, and as such there were stipulations put in place that if DL moved their MSP flight to another location, down gauged the aircraft, or reduced frequencies, that the slot would go to AA at DFW. However, as mentioned, DL has not once moved their slots since the daytime slots were awarded. This brings us today, and what this filing is about. Essentially DL is asking the DOT permission to move HND slots around. And while it may be applicable to the new slots set to be awarded in 2020, it is likely that the rule would also be applied to previously awarded slots as well, should the DOT approve. (Note also, the rumors have suggested that four additional daytime HND slots would be added in 2020 for US carriers).


I get what you're saying and your 100% correct those overnight arrival/ departure slots didn't work and these airlines were loosing money. However all these airlines new going into this that these flights would loose money but they submitted a bid for the frequency because they wanted the frequency and they wanted to keep the frequency from going to a competitor. Airlines were willing to loose money for the frequency with the night time slot with the hope that they would one day secure a day time slot. The DOT has been more than patient with AA, DL and UA as it pertains to HND frequencies. They have allowed these airlines to downguage equipment, and move the frequency from one airport to another. Also I'm not sure if any one of these airlines was granted a dormancy waiver but at least one may two of them have applied for a waiver in the past.

The US3 have abused this entire process these airlines knew they were bidding on a money loosing frequency either based on the time slot for arrival/departure at HND (past overnight slots). Or they new they would be loosing money based on the departure city here in the U.S.. The kicker is they all submitted bids knowing they would loose money. However the frequency itself is so important to them they want to hold on to the frequency and every couple of years ask for permission to move the frequency until they acquire enough frequencies and perfect time slots to make HND profitable. If the frequency is that important fly the route from the airport you were granted and stomach the losses. However if you're trying to stop the bleeding on a route that's loosing money then return the frequency and resubmit a truthful bid based on a city you are sure will be profitable. What airlines have done with HND in the past is they've submitted bids not based on demand but based on the path of least resistance. AA knew JFK-HND would loose money but they wanted the frequency. Although later I believe AA did return that frequency before being awarded another one from LAX. DL is not any different, when they were awarded DTW-HND and LAX-HND I would bet anything DL never had any intention on utilizing the 744 long term (when I say long term I mean until their 744s were retired). But DTW/LAX and the prospect of utilizing what once was their largest aircraft helped bolster DL's bid. Not to leave UA out they are no different we are not using the aircraft we said we would use in our original bid instead we are utilizing a 788/9s, it changes depending on the season. If airlines are purposely deceiving the DOT by submitting fraudulent bids just to get their hands on the frequency then the DOT should give them the freedom to adjust the gauge of equipment but at the same time they should make them fly the route awarded or tell them to return it.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:56 am

c933103 wrote:
The MSP-HND was wasting the resource of HND and should probably be relocated immediately


Too bad. Delta should never have started it if it was going to lose money. They can give the route authority back though. Delta doesn't deserve anymore HND flights with their cavalier approach to it.
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:03 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I hope the DOT doesn't give this one second of thought. Delta has abused their HND authorities from the very beginning. And SEA and DTW should not be awarded again. Delta tried HND from those gateways and then pulled out. Maybe give them one HND award for ATL. And make it clear to Delta then any funny business will result in the immediate loss of the authority.

In all honesty Hawaiian is the only airline truly deserving of more HND slots. They're the only US airline that has actually kept their word and used the authority as originally intended.


Yeah but it's Hawaiian. HNL is their bread and butter and moving their slot to somewhere other than HNL is basically not an option. Where else are they gonna go?
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:27 am

sonicruiser wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I hope the DOT doesn't give this one second of thought. Delta has abused their HND authorities from the very beginning. And SEA and DTW should not be awarded again. Delta tried HND from those gateways and then pulled out. Maybe give them one HND award for ATL. And make it clear to Delta then any funny business will result in the immediate loss of the authority.

In all honesty Hawaiian is the only airline truly deserving of more HND slots. They're the only US airline that has actually kept their word and used the authority as originally intended.


Yeah but it's Hawaiian. HNL is their bread and butter and moving their slot to somewhere other than HNL is basically not an option. Where else are they gonna go?


Hawaiian has been wanting an additional HND slot for KOA for quite some time. They deserve it since they have acted in good faith.
 
azjubilee
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:30 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Hawaiian has been wanting an additional HND slot for KOA for quite some time. They deserve it since they have acted in good faith.


Hawaiian already has the slot to fly to KOA. In the second award proceeding, which opened up the daytime slots, HAL was the only one that applied for the nighttime slot. They split the service 3/wk to KOA and 4/wk to HNL. They also operate 7/wk to HNL with the awarded daytime slot.
 
777Mech
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:50 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I hope the DOT doesn't give this one second of thought. Delta has abused their HND authorities from the very beginning. And SEA and DTW should not be awarded again. Delta tried HND from those gateways and then pulled out. Maybe give them one HND award for ATL. And make it clear to Delta then any funny business will result in the immediate loss of the authority.

In all honesty Hawaiian is the only airline truly deserving of more HND slots. They're the only US airline that has actually kept their word and used the authority as originally intended.


Yeah but it's Hawaiian. HNL is their bread and butter and moving their slot to somewhere other than HNL is basically not an option. Where else are they gonna go?


Hawaiian has been wanting an additional HND slot for KOA for quite some time. They deserve it since they have acted in good faith.


You're hatred is blinding you. They already have the authority to operate KOA-HND..
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:12 am

deltal1011man wrote:
the US-Japan "open skies" is the fakest open skies that has ever existed.

^This.

It makes no sense that regulators are still continuing the facade of this being open skies.

The UK has got to be somewhat irked, as the issues here (access to market-viable slot timings from gateways originally not innumerated for LHR service) is what scuttled USA-UK open skies attempts in both 1998 and 2002.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:26 am

777Mech wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:

Yeah but it's Hawaiian. HNL is their bread and butter and moving their slot to somewhere other than HNL is basically not an option. Where else are they gonna go?


Hawaiian has been wanting an additional HND slot for KOA for quite some time. They deserve it since they have acted in good faith.


You're hatred is blinding you. They already have the authority to operate KOA-HND..


No hate, it's just a fact that Delta is constantly whining about HND despite knowing every stipulation before accepting the terms of the route authority. For once they need to be told to shut up and let someone else have a go at it. HND just doesn't work beyond LAX, SFO, and Hawaii. Want better arrival and departure times? Go to NRT. HND is their premier airport and they can do as they please with it. Just like LGA is our premier airport for NYC. Even if the runway was capable and we got rid of the perimeter rule we would not allow international carriers to have the preferred slot times.
 
luckyone
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:16 pm

I continue to be amused and irritated at how emotional some people in this board get about things like this. It’s like sitting around the cafeteria table listening to people talk about college football.

This is business folks. With respect to the airlines and Haneda, they are operating in an artificially modulated market based on selection criteria that are guaranteed to create suboptimal results. As others have pointed out, they did this with full expectation of the rules being relaxed over time. So why all the outrage when they request it? Delta isn’t “whining.” You aren’t going to get something unless you ask for it. The DOT policy is short sighted, because ultimately these diverse gateways that don’t provide desired results will lose the service regardless. It’s like you first job—not what you’d want long term and if you don’t get better compensation or conditions you’re going somewhere else eventually. If MSP isn’t doing well, and Delta returns the frequency in lieu of transferring it no one else is going to start serving that market. THAT is a market reality and will ultimately provide passengers less access in the long run.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:28 pm

Getting so tiring to see corporations once again desire to yank around public goods like this. Maybe the DOT will grow a pair for once and reply with a firm no.

azjubilee wrote:
Hawaiian already has the slot to fly to KOA. In the second award proceeding, which opened up the daytime slots, HAL was the only one that applied for the nighttime slot. They split the service 3/wk to KOA and 4/wk to HNL. They also operate 7/wk to HNL with the awarded daytime slot.

777Mech wrote:
You're hatred is blinding you. They already have the authority to operate KOA-HND..


But HA didn't receive the daytime KOA/HNL slot they desired more than the nighttime slot. They were shorted in the last awarding.
 
kavok
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:40 pm

Three points:
1- Is there any evidence that the DOT was actually frustrated with DL and their original “move the location around to see what HND night slot works” strategy? Obviously AA/UA didn’t like it, but from the DOT perspective, DL was trying to make the night slot work in a market that wasn’t LAX/SFO/HNL. Given the DOT’s traditional spread the competition philosophy, the DOT might not have actually been as upset with it as UA/AA were (despite the narrative on A.net). Frequency and Gauge is a different story, obviously.

2- It is widely rumored on A.net that the MSP-HND “restrictions” was done as a punitive measure to DL for previously moving the DTW/SEA-HND night slot around. There is probably some truth in this. There is also probably some truth (possibly more truth) that the same Minnesota political figures who pressured the DOT to pick the MSP-HND slot didn’t want DL to move it somewhere else also. Rather than just adding the restriction to punish DL, might the restriction also have been written by the same political figures who didn’t want to see MSP without a Tokyo flight?

3- When only HND night slots were available, no US airport could make the flights work profitably that wasn’t LAX/SFO/HNL. This was also true for the Japanese carriers, who only used their night slots on LAX/SFO/HNL. However when daytime slots became an option, all of a sudden the Japanese carriers could make other US destinations work, such as JFK and ORD. Point being, as the Japanese carriers have shown, eastern and central US airports can work with the HND daytime slots, even if they didn’t work before with the night slots.
 
splitterz
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:47 pm

azjubilee wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Hawaiian has been wanting an additional HND slot for KOA for quite some time. They deserve it since they have acted in good faith.


Hawaiian already has the slot to fly to KOA. In the second award proceeding, which opened up the daytime slots, HAL was the only one that applied for the nighttime slot. They split the service 3/wk to KOA and 4/wk to HNL. They also operate 7/wk to HNL with the awarded daytime slot.


No they don't. They is not that best use of limited slots. That helps Japanese tourism to the big island. HA doesn't 'deserve' anything.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:08 pm

Who didnt see this coming? Besides everyone I mean.
Religion is the root of evil...
 
jbs2886
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Re: Delta ask DOT for flexibility to move Haneda gateways

Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:12 pm

kavok wrote:
Three points:
1- Is there any evidence that the DOT was actually frustrated with DL and their original “move the location around to see what HND night slot works” strategy? Obviously AA/UA didn’t like it, but from the DOT perspective, DL was trying to make the night slot work in a market that wasn’t LAX/SFO/HNL. Given the DOT’s traditional spread the competition philosophy, the DOT might not have actually been as upset with it as UA/AA were (despite the narrative on A.net). Frequency and Gauge is a different story, obviously.

2- It is widely rumored on A.net that the MSP-HND “restrictions” was done as a punitive measure to DL for previously moving the DTW/SEA-HND night slot around. There is probably some truth in this. There is also probably some truth (possibly more truth) that the same Minnesota political figures who pressured the DOT to pick the MSP-HND slot didn’t want DL to move it somewhere else also. Rather than just adding the restriction to punish DL, might the restriction also have been written by the same political figures who didn’t want to see MSP without a Tokyo flight?

3- When only HND night slots were available, no US airport could make the flights work profitably that wasn’t LAX/SFO/HNL. This was also true for the Japanese carriers, who only used their night slots on LAX/SFO/HNL. However when daytime slots became an option, all of a sudden the Japanese carriers could make other US destinations work, such as JFK and ORD. Point being, as the Japanese carriers have shown, eastern and central US airports can work with the HND daytime slots, even if they didn’t work before with the night slots.


Re: 1 and 2 - if you read the DOT's order you can just tell there was frustration with DL and that the DOT felt DL had "abused" the previous SEA award based on the language used.

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