dcajet
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Re: Southwest returns additional MEX slots to DOT

Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:42 am

Jshank83 wrote:
It’s hard to know if you don’t even try to sell them in Mexico. I would tend to agree they aren’t going to sell a ton on the Mexican side but any amount helps.


Well, their website is fully localized/transliterated in Spanish so anyone could reserve it from MEX or any other foreign market, provided WN allows that. So it seems that it boils down to a in market brand awareness for outbound travel to the US, particularly when they have to compete with the likes of AA, DL & UA. which tend ot have higher brand recognition beyond our borders.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
N292UX
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Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:48 am

Kinda feel like F9 is gonna snatch up those slots and pull out the dartboard for the new routes. Then pull out a year later after they all fail. However my best bet is that UA will either restart DEN-MEX or maybe someone could launch the IND-MEX route that has been talked about for quite a while now. We'll see.
 
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enilria
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Re: Southwest returns additional MEX slots to DOT

Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:49 am

LAXintl wrote:
Funny stuff. Americas largest leisure carrier cant make service between its hub and one of the worlds most populous cities work.

I really think this entire episode and WN other experiences in non US driven point of sale Latin markets goes back to issue with sales and distribution.

You nailed it and I’ve been predicting this since they entered the MEX market. This is also why they never added Canada.

I’m told there are three primary issues. 1) the res system can now handle foreign currency sale, but their revenue accounting backend cannot so that means that, for example, if you buy a ticket in pesos and later refund they cannot give you the exact same number of pesos back because the sale is recorded in dollars. This creates many many issues. 2) they can only price in dollars and let Amadeus convert. This means as the currency floats the price in pesos changes. Every time it sets a new low the Mexican carriers match the prices which creates a pricing spiral. To prevent that they foreign price above the Mexican carriers by a few % to prevent that effect. That hurts sales. 3) Latin sales channels are not even Expedia and certainly not wn.com. A lot is still sold via travel agents and ticket offices. The Southwest philosophy of “keep it simple stupid” will not allow them to internally embrace that these complexities are necessary to succeed because in middle management it is seen as anathema to the WN philosophy. I posted this recently, but they are only doing 1/2 the Mexican originating traffic per flight as the other USA carriers and I would bet most of that are Americans buying Mexican family a ticket.

You put it all together and they can’t make foreign sale markets work. Canada would be better because #3 is mostly not a problem there as people would use wn.com, but 1 and 2 are still an issue.

Btw, this is not WN bashing. These are just facts. Maybe middle management is right that it hurts the low cost philosophy too much to make this work. I’m not judging that. Right or wrong the end result is they are stuck being a USA point of sale airline at this point.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Southwest returns additional MEX slots to DOT

Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:17 am

enilria wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Funny stuff. Americas largest leisure carrier cant make service between its hub and one of the worlds most populous cities work.

I really think this entire episode and WN other experiences in non US driven point of sale Latin markets goes back to issue with sales and distribution.

You nailed it and I’ve been predicting this since they entered the MEX market. This is also why they never added Canada.

I’m told there are three primary issues. 1) the res system can now handle foreign currency sale, but their revenue accounting backend cannot so that means that, for example, if you buy a ticket in pesos and later refund they cannot give you the exact same number of pesos back because the sale is recorded in dollars. This creates many many issues. 2) they can only price in dollars and let Amadeus convert. This means as the currency floats the price in pesos changes. Every time it sets a new low the Mexican carriers match the prices which creates a pricing spiral. To prevent that they foreign price above the Mexican carriers by a few % to prevent that effect. That hurts sales. 3) Latin sales channels are not even Expedia and certainly not wn.com. A lot is still sold via travel agents and ticket offices. The Southwest philosophy of “keep it simple stupid” will not allow them to internally embrace that these complexities are necessary to succeed because in middle management it is seen as anathema to the WN philosophy. I posted this recently, but they are only doing 1/2 the Mexican originating traffic per flight as the other USA carriers and I would bet most of that are Americans buying Mexican family a ticket.

You put it all together and they can’t make foreign sale markets work. Canada would be better because #3 is mostly not a problem there as people would use wn.com, but 1 and 2 are still an issue.

Btw, this is not WN bashing. These are just facts. Maybe middle management is right that it hurts the low cost philosophy too much to make this work. I’m not judging that. Right or wrong the end result is they are stuck being a USA point of sale airline at this point.


Well and I don’t know about anyone else but I still can’t get in my head that WN is an international option. Their branding and sort of in-house approach to things inhibits their international branding afaic.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
TUSDawg23
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Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:28 am

Did anyone actually read the piece in the Dallas Morning News? Kelly said that MEX was showing sign of improvements, but that they wanted to shift more efforts to Hawaii and that they would love to go back to MEX.

"Mexico City was showing very nice improvement. It's much more of a business market. And given where we are right now, we just have better opportunities in terms of deploying that capacity. I'd love for us to be back in Mexico City one of these days."

There seem to be people on here that think WN should behave like a legacy and how ridiculous it is that they have such a limited international presence and will not upgrade their IT systems substantially to take advantage of these markets. But all you have to do is point to the fact that they make money every year. They do it by picking their markets carefully and being smart with how they deploy their assets.

I will be the first to admit that there are some headwinds for WN around labor relations, their rising costs, and a couple of operational blunders recently that have damaged their image a bit. But they provide a solid and consistent product for the consumer and good value for shareholders. Combine that with their strong company culture and you have an airline that continues to perform well through the highs and lows of the economy.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Southwest returns additional MEX slots to DOT

Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:33 am

jfklganyc wrote:
B6 hasnt been all that lucky in MEX either.

Im surprised because WN is so Texas heavy...you think they could make it work


To your point, hasn’t AS also failed twice in MEX? They turned LAX over to AA; then started again after the VX merger to LAX, SFO, and SAN. I believe they’d dropped all three.
 
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enilria
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Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:19 am

TUSDawg23 wrote:
Did anyone actually read the piece in the Dallas Morning News? Kelly said that MEX was showing sign of improvements, but that they wanted to shift more efforts to Hawaii and that they would love to go back to MEX.

"Mexico City was showing very nice improvement. It's much more of a business market. And given where we are right now, we just have better opportunities in terms of deploying that capacity. I'd love for us to be back in Mexico City one of these days."

There seem to be people on here that think WN should behave like a legacy and how ridiculous it is that they have such a limited international presence and will not upgrade their IT systems substantially to take advantage of these markets. But all you have to do is point to the fact that they make money every year. They do it by picking their markets carefully and being smart with how they deploy their assets.

I will be the first to admit that there are some headwinds for WN around labor relations, their rising costs, and a couple of operational blunders recently that have damaged their image a bit. But they provide a solid and consistent product for the consumer and good value for shareholders. Combine that with their strong company culture and you have an airline that continues to perform well through the highs and lows of the economy.

Sure they can come back after they’ve fixed their problems with foreign sale. If they do. Hawaii won’t have any of those issues. The problem with Hawaii in terms of why it is taking so long is tied to the same issue I just mentioned above and code share too. All these complexities are seen by middle management as poisoning the “keep it simple stupid” Southwest philosophy so there is not great enthusiasm for these projects and they either go slowly or die from suffocation before ever starting. They will get Hawaii going and it will do fine, but the slow pace of all these projects go to the core Southwest culture. Again, maybe those middle mnangement people are right. Maybe trying to change into something more complex will destroy the company. Idk. But that’s what’s happening.
 
777Mech
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Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:27 am

I seem to recall FL had some success in MEX, and WN couldn't keep it going. It's a shame.
 
Judge1310
Posts: 340
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Re: Southwest returns additional MEX slots to DOT

Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:27 am

enilria wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Funny stuff. Americas largest leisure carrier cant make service between its hub and one of the worlds most populous cities work.

I really think this entire episode and WN other experiences in non US driven point of sale Latin markets goes back to issue with sales and distribution.

You nailed it and I’ve been predicting this since they entered the MEX market. This is also why they never added Canada.

I’m told there are three primary issues. 1) the res system can now handle foreign currency sale, but their revenue accounting backend cannot so that means that, for example, if you buy a ticket in pesos and later refund they cannot give you the exact same number of pesos back because the sale is recorded in dollars. This creates many many issues. 2) they can only price in dollars and let Amadeus convert. This means as the currency floats the price in pesos changes. Every time it sets a new low the Mexican carriers match the prices which creates a pricing spiral. To prevent that they foreign price above the Mexican carriers by a few % to prevent that effect. That hurts sales. 3) Latin sales channels are not even Expedia and certainly not wn.com. A lot is still sold via travel agents and ticket offices. The Southwest philosophy of “keep it simple stupid” will not allow them to internally embrace that these complexities are necessary to succeed because in middle management it is seen as anathema to the WN philosophy. I posted this recently, but they are only doing 1/2 the Mexican originating traffic per flight as the other USA carriers and I would bet most of that are Americans buying Mexican family a ticket.

You put it all together and they can’t make foreign sale markets work. Canada would be better because #3 is mostly not a problem there as people would use wn.com, but 1 and 2 are still an issue.

Btw, this is not WN bashing. These are just facts. Maybe middle management is right that it hurts the low cost philosophy too much to make this work. I’m not judging that. Right or wrong the end result is they are stuck being a USA point of sale airline at this point.


That above highlighted point is the primary issue. There's still a disconnect between the folks on the ground and in the field who observe what is going on and those back on Love Field Drive who make the final decisions. Upper management had been advised from years past to invest in the CTO concept but to no avail as it didn't fit "The Southwest Way". It was a fundamental misinterpretation and misunderstanding of the local market, again, even with plenty of input from those who understood the market. When AirTran launched MEX from SAT (due to restrictions imposed at the time by the Dirección General de Aviación) the market worked because connections were timed from SAT to provide plenty of opportunities.

The fact that both MDW- and BWI-MEX weren't attempted is also telling (unless it was due to government-imposed restrictions).
 
santi319
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Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:27 am

You couldnt buy WN tickets if you were from Mexico on their website... literally the stupidest thing Ive ever seen in the 21st century..

Leave this to NK and B6 they actually know what theyre doing international..
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:32 am

TUSDawg23 wrote:
Did anyone actually read the piece in the Dallas Morning News? Kelly said that MEX was showing sign of improvements, but that they wanted to shift more efforts to Hawaii and that they would love to go back to MEX.

"Mexico City was showing very nice improvement. It's much more of a business market. And given where we are right now, we just have better opportunities in terms of deploying that capacity. I'd love for us to be back in Mexico City one of these days."
.


Those are largely empty PR talking points.

Mexico City is a limited entry market, one where slots are extremely hard to come by. Just like AA leaving ORD-China, WN is leaving MEX becuase its doing terrible. They would not walk away knowing how hard it is to get in if they saw profits on the horizon nor would not have trimmed schedules from 6 down to 2 flights over the last year.

And regarding Hawaii, pulling the two remaining HOU-MEX flights which are barely 2hours long hardly creates much aircraft free time. WN could have found equivalent free time easily out of its massive domestic network.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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UPlog
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Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:39 am

As a pilot having flown around Latin America, I always found it interesting how ticket sales are very different with things such as legacy travel agencies/tour consolidators and airlines maintaining city ticket offices, and using cash playing an important part with the consumer.

I always got a kick out of seeing (often busy) US airline ticket offices on major boulevards or in malls. Its like taking a trip back in time.
 
Judge1310
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Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:40 am

LAXintl wrote:
TUSDawg23 wrote:
Did anyone actually read the piece in the Dallas Morning News? Kelly said that MEX was showing sign of improvements, but that they wanted to shift more efforts to Hawaii and that they would love to go back to MEX.

"Mexico City was showing very nice improvement. It's much more of a business market. And given where we are right now, we just have better opportunities in terms of deploying that capacity. I'd love for us to be back in Mexico City one of these days."
.


Those are largely empty PR talking points.

Mexico City is a limited entry market, one where slots are extremely hard to come by. Just like AA leaving ORD-China, WN is leaving MEX becuase its doing terrible. They would not walk away knowing how hard it is to get in if they saw profits on the horizon nor would not have trimmed schedules from 6 down to 2 flights over the last year.

And regarding Hawaii, pulling the two remaining HOU-MEX flights which are barely 2hours long hardly creates much aircraft free time. WN could have found equivalent free time easily out of its massive domestic network.


:thumbsup: :checkmark: :checkmark:
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:49 am

How it B6 doing out of MEX? It looks like they have flights to BOS, JFK, FLL, and MCO.
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ericm2031
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Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:51 am

777Mech wrote:
I seem to recall FL had some success in MEX, and WN couldn't keep it going. It's a shame.


A lot has happened since then though. You now have the DL-AM JV and VB/Y4/4O have a much larger US presence now
 
Jshank83
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Re: Southwest returns additional MEX slots to DOT

Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:11 am

dcajet wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
It’s hard to know if you don’t even try to sell them in Mexico. I would tend to agree they aren’t going to sell a ton on the Mexican side but any amount helps.


Well, their website is fully localized/transliterated in Spanish so anyone could reserve it from MEX or any other foreign market, provided WN allows that. So it seems that it boils down to a in market brand awareness for outbound travel to the US, particularly when they have to compete with the likes of AA, DL & UA. which tend ot have higher brand recognition beyond our borders.


WN doesn’t allow it is the issue. You might have to use a US credit card. Not exactly sure how they limit it. In Europe the website is blocked (not that you are flying from Europe anyway) but I was going to buy some flight over there for when I was home and couldn’t.
 
dcajet
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Re: Southwest returns additional MEX slots to DOT

Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:45 am

Jshank83 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
It’s hard to know if you don’t even try to sell them in Mexico. I would tend to agree they aren’t going to sell a ton on the Mexican side but any amount helps.


Well, their website is fully localized/transliterated in Spanish so anyone could reserve it from MEX or any other foreign market, provided WN allows that. So it seems that it boils down to a in market brand awareness for outbound travel to the US, particularly when they have to compete with the likes of AA, DL & UA. which tend ot have higher brand recognition beyond our borders.


WN doesn’t allow it is the issue. You might have to use a US credit card. Not exactly sure how they limit it. In Europe the website is blocked (not that you are flying from Europe anyway) but I was going to buy some flight over there for when I was home and couldn’t.


Some countries are blocked; not all. I don't believe Mexico is one of them. There was a thread about it a few weeks ago.

This is just one of the issues WN faces internationally. Some of their back end systems are still not geared for international growth. And many other issues other folks have posted on here.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
Judge1310
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Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:55 am

ericm2031 wrote:
777Mech wrote:
I seem to recall FL had some success in MEX, and WN couldn't keep it going. It's a shame.


A lot has happened since then though. You now have the DL-AM JV and VB/Y4/4O have a much larger US presence now


I'm sorry, but one can't boast about being the #1 Domestic Airline in terms of pax carried and then can't make four flights to the second largest metropolitan area in the Western Hemisphere work? Now that's a dag-gone shame. Equipment is there; passengers are there; physical infrastructure is there; and still can't garner some marginal success in MEX?

Oh but don't worry, there's the SWA panacea of Hawaií...another grasp at low-hanging fruit. I like Southwest, but I wish they'd just stop pretending to be anything other than an airline that caters primarily to USA-based passengers.
 
FSDan
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Re: Southwest returns additional MEX slots to DOT

Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:01 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Well and I don’t know about anyone else but I still can’t get in my head that WN is an international option. Their branding and sort of in-house approach to things inhibits their international branding afaic.


For sure. I literally just had a conversation with my brother-in-law (who lives in California and has flown with WN much of his life) in which WN's international flying came up, and he had a much more limited picture in mind of their international operations than what the reality is. He was very surprised to learn that they fly to Central America and the Caribbean.
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FSDan
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Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:06 am

N292UX wrote:
Kinda feel like F9 is gonna snatch up those slots and pull out the dartboard for the new routes. Then pull out a year later after they all fail.


Ha! Yeah, it wouldn't be too far out of the realm of reality for F9 to announce the likes of ELP-MEX, OKC-MEX, CVG-MEX, RSW-MEX, RDU-MEX, and ISP-MEX, each 2-3x weekly. :duck:
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enilria
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Re: Southwest returns additional MEX slots to DOT

Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:21 am

Judge1310 wrote:
enilria wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Funny stuff. Americas largest leisure carrier cant make service between its hub and one of the worlds most populous cities work.

I really think this entire episode and WN other experiences in non US driven point of sale Latin markets goes back to issue with sales and distribution.

You nailed it and I’ve been predicting this since they entered the MEX market. This is also why they never added Canada.

I’m told there are three primary issues. 1) the res system can now handle foreign currency sale, but their revenue accounting backend cannot so that means that, for example, if you buy a ticket in pesos and later refund they cannot give you the exact same number of pesos back because the sale is recorded in dollars. This creates many many issues. 2) they can only price in dollars and let Amadeus convert. This means as the currency floats the price in pesos changes. Every time it sets a new low the Mexican carriers match the prices which creates a pricing spiral. To prevent that they foreign price above the Mexican carriers by a few % to prevent that effect. That hurts sales. 3) Latin sales channels are not even Expedia and certainly not wn.com. A lot is still sold via travel agents and ticket offices. The Southwest philosophy of “keep it simple stupid” will not allow them to internally embrace that these complexities are necessary to succeed because in middle management it is seen as anathema to the WN philosophy. I posted this recently, but they are only doing 1/2 the Mexican originating traffic per flight as the other USA carriers and I would bet most of that are Americans buying Mexican family a ticket.

You put it all together and they can’t make foreign sale markets work. Canada would be better because #3 is mostly not a problem there as people would use wn.com, but 1 and 2 are still an issue.

Btw, this is not WN bashing. These are just facts. Maybe middle management is right that it hurts the low cost philosophy too much to make this work. I’m not judging that. Right or wrong the end result is they are stuck being a USA point of sale airline at this point.


That above highlighted point is the primary issue. There's still a disconnect between the folks on the ground and in the field who observe what is going on and those back on Love Field Drive who make the final decisions. Upper management had been advised from years past to invest in the CTO concept but to no avail as it didn't fit "The Southwest Way". It was a fundamental misinterpretation and misunderstanding of the local market, again, even with plenty of input from those who understood the market. When AirTran launched MEX from SAT (due to restrictions imposed at the time by the Dirección General de Aviación) the market worked because connections were timed from SAT to provide plenty of opportunities.

The fact that both MDW- and BWI-MEX weren't attempted is also telling (unless it was due to government-imposed restrictions).

I’m sure HAV is doing even worse than MEX, but they haven’t thrown in the towel yet. The situation is very similar, although I would assume there isn’t that much sale on the HAV side for anybody. Just lack of connects and lack of support for a foreign language market are huge disadvantages.
 
airplaneboy
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Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:25 am

777Mech wrote:
I seem to recall FL had some success in MEX, and WN couldn't keep it going. It's a shame.


AirTran’s entry into MEX occurred after WN acquired them. It was WN’s route planning that decided that service, but FL metal was used due to WN not having international capabilities at the time. Hence why AirTran flew the SAT and SNA flights to Mexico post acquisition.
 
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enilria
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Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:29 am

FSDan wrote:
N292UX wrote:
Kinda feel like F9 is gonna snatch up those slots and pull out the dartboard for the new routes. Then pull out a year later after they all fail.


Ha! Yeah, it wouldn't be too far out of the realm of reality for F9 to announce the likes of ELP-MEX, OKC-MEX, CVG-MEX, RSW-MEX, RDU-MEX, and ISP-MEX, each 2-3x weekly. :duck:

I’m not sure F9 is any more able to sell in Mexico than WN. The only difference might be that people will go far outside their comfort zone for F9 pricing levels. I was once told that NK saw huge sales from library IPs in markets like Dominican Republic because people would buy the tickets there for the free internet. Of course, credit card usage levels are another problem.
 
Judge1310
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Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:51 am

airplaneboy wrote:
777Mech wrote:
I seem to recall FL had some success in MEX, and WN couldn't keep it going. It's a shame.


AirTran’s entry into MEX occurred after WN acquired them. It was WN’s route planning that decided that service, but FL metal was used due to WN not having international capabilities at the time. Hence why AirTran flew the SAT and SNA flights to Mexico post acquisition.


Completely wrong. FL served MEX before the WN acquired them. Just like AirTran served Aruba, Cancun, Montego Bay, Bermuda, and Nassau before having to do anything with Southwest.
 
laca773
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Re: Southwest returns additional MEX slots to DOT

Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:52 am

ericm2031 wrote:
B6, AS, and WN have now all had issues there, and all kind of fall between the Mexican LCC's and the DL/AM JV.

This isn't really a WN isolated issue


Spot on! AS has struggled with MEX since they entered the market the first time. I was hoping they would make it this time around downgauging their SAN-MEX flight to a E75 & one of the 2 LAX-MEX flights was also a E75 & the other a 738. Once UA pulled the plug on their LAX-MEX, I hoped it would help things improve for AS there. Even AA has axed one of their two daily flights on the same route.
MEX seems to be a tough market. Definitely not like GDL or the beach resorts.
Perhaps, we'll see WN re-enter MEX at some point if they expand GDS/POS options.
 
airplaneboy
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Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:57 am

Judge1310 wrote:
airplaneboy wrote:
777Mech wrote:
I seem to recall FL had some success in MEX, and WN couldn't keep it going. It's a shame.


AirTran’s entry into MEX occurred after WN acquired them. It was WN’s route planning that decided that service, but FL metal was used due to WN not having international capabilities at the time. Hence why AirTran flew the SAT and SNA flights to Mexico post acquisition.


Completely wrong. FL served MEX before the WN acquired them. Just like AirTran served Aruba, Cancun, Montego Bay, Bermuda, and Nassau before having to do anything with Southwest.


Prior to WN acquiring AirTran in May of 2011, AirTran had no presence in SAT, SNA, MEX or SJD. CUN was AirTran’s sole market in Mexico before the acquisition. Post-acquisition, WN used AirTran’s international capabilities (res system, etc.) to further expand their international footprint for what would eventually all be merged under Southwest ops. After the acquisition in May 2011, AirTran was a wholly owned subsidiary of Southwest that operated under the full control and direction of Southwest management.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 29323.html
 
alggag
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Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:06 am

Judge1310 wrote:
airplaneboy wrote:
777Mech wrote:
I seem to recall FL had some success in MEX, and WN couldn't keep it going. It's a shame.


AirTran’s entry into MEX occurred after WN acquired them. It was WN’s route planning that decided that service, but FL metal was used due to WN not having international capabilities at the time. Hence why AirTran flew the SAT and SNA flights to Mexico post acquisition.


Completely wrong. FL served MEX before the WN acquired them. Just like AirTran served Aruba, Cancun, Montego Bay, Bermuda, and Nassau before having to do anything with Southwest.


No.

MEX started after the acquisition but was flown with FL planes via SNA and SAT.
 
Dallastraveler
Posts: 2
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Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:18 am

Here's a story on SWA pulling out of MEX.

http://www.aldiadallas.com/2019/01/24/s ... de-mexico/
 
Judge1310
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Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:32 am

Judge1310 wrote:
airplaneboy wrote:
777Mech wrote:
I seem to recall FL had some success in MEX, and WN couldn't keep it going. It's a shame.


AirTran’s entry into MEX occurred after WN acquired them. It was WN’s route planning that decided that service, but FL metal was used due to WN not having international capabilities at the time. Hence why AirTran flew the SAT and SNA flights to Mexico post acquisition.


Completely wrong. FL served MEX before the WN acquired them. Just like AirTran served Aruba, Cancun, Montego Bay, Bermuda, and Nassau before having to do anything with Southwest.


Allow me to retract my previous post. MEX was started in by FL in May/June of 2012 whereas WN acquired FL in Sept 2010. My humble apologies for the error and for my erroneous post. I admit that I had the timeline in my mind mixed up.
 
777Mech
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Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:00 am

airplaneboy wrote:
777Mech wrote:
I seem to recall FL had some success in MEX, and WN couldn't keep it going. It's a shame.


AirTran’s entry into MEX occurred after WN acquired them. It was WN’s route planning that decided that service, but FL metal was used due to WN not having international capabilities at the time. Hence why AirTran flew the SAT and SNA flights to Mexico post acquisition.


It was stupid of WN to not adopt the system FL had in place. I believe they had navitaire as a res system and it worked great. Then they moved to one system from the 60s. WN has just made poor decisions on the international front.
 
WNCrew
Posts: 977
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:22 pm

Re: Southwest returns additional MEX slots to DOT

Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:58 am

[/quote]
I’m sure HAV is doing even worse than MEX, but they haven’t thrown in the towel yet. The situation is very similar, although I would assume there isn’t that much sale on the HAV side for anybody. Just lack of connects and lack of support for a foreign language market are huge disadvantages.[/quote]

I don't know what the tickets themselves cost, but I have worked HAV many times throughout the year and the LF was always 90 or higher in the last two years. I also remember seeing some internal documentation that alluded to HAV being profitable which surprised me bc that would mean WN made money solely on ticket sales as there's little to no cargo carried.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 5824
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:45 pm

No surprise. No one is making money to MEX from the US now with the advent of all the low cost carriers in Mexico.
"I dance and laugh among the rotten"
 
Cubsrule
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Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Southwest returns additional MEX slots to DOT

Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:47 pm

WNCrew wrote:
I don't know what the tickets themselves cost, but I have worked HAV many times throughout the year and the LF was always 90 or higher in the last two years. I also remember seeing some internal documentation that alluded to HAV being profitable which surprised me bc that would mean WN made money solely on ticket sales as there's little to no cargo carried.


HAV is bulky and heavily US point of sale. So in ways relevant to WN, it behaves more like a beach route even though there isn't much leisure component. There aren't many Latin American routes like that. MDW-GDL, which TZ flew for years without much infrastructure in Mexico, might be another.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
DLvsWN
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:31 pm

Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:05 pm

Ugh, as an Atlanta-based person who travels to MEX frequently this is terrible. Delta fares are routinely $1100 r/t and going United/American only cuts that down maybe $100, even 7 days out. It's to the point that Atlanta-Mexico fares across the board seem inexplicably, almost collusively, high--much higher than other southeastern markets like JAX and BNA which lack direct service.

Examples:

Feb 10 - 14
Delta ATL-MEX $1008
American ATL-MEX $1020
United ATL-MEX $1023

Delta BNA-MEX $393
American BNA-MEX $341
United BNA-MEX $423

Delta JAX-MEX $372
American JAX-MEX $438
United JAX-MEX $465

Such a wonderful competitive outcome. Guess I'm stuck flying through Orlando on B6 now.
 
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william
Posts: 3135
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Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:31 pm

UPlog wrote:
As a pilot having flown around Latin America, I always found it interesting how ticket sales are very different with things such as legacy travel agencies/tour consolidators and airlines maintaining city ticket offices, and using cash playing an important part with the consumer.

I always got a kick out of seeing (often busy) US airline ticket offices on major boulevards or in malls. Its like taking a trip back in time.


I noticed that when watching the Amazing Race TV show, the contestants always go into travel agencies to buy tickets. A nice reminiscing moment.
 
hohd
Posts: 763
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 1:03 am

Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:31 pm

Southwest has to get into GDS and be visible with on line travel agencies for international flights. Otherwise they can forget any further expansion to international destinations. I was enjoying the low fares on Houston to MEX sector on United, now UA will try to hike it back.
 
tphuang
Posts: 3108
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:01 pm

It should be mentioned that WN had a really good quarter with 14% margin, that's top in the industry. So yes, their model makes international market (or any market with less WN recognition) hard to work, but it also keeps their cost down. So, I don't think they should change what they are doing. They seem to do okay on the ones with heavy US POS. And HI is going to be a major move this year. What I see is they are simply re-orienting their strategies to west coast from international.

Super80Fan wrote:
How it B6 doing out of MEX? It looks like they have flights to BOS, JFK, FLL, and MCO.

well, they have a monopoly out of BOS now, so that should be doing well. The other markets are pretty tough though. They announced plans to cut MCO/FLL to 1 daily but then backed off, so they are still operating 6 daily there. A while back, I checked their LF and it was either high 60s or low 70s out of MCO/FLL.

enilria wrote:
I’m sure HAV is doing even worse than MEX, but they haven’t thrown in the towel yet. The situation is very similar, although I would assume there isn’t that much sale on the HAV side for anybody. Just lack of connects and lack of support for a foreign language market are huge disadvantages.


agreed, i'm surprised they have not thrown in the towel at HAV yet. The LF was always in the low 70s with not great fares.
 
dumbell2424
Posts: 925
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:45 pm

Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:47 pm

As others have said this has NK all over it...but I wouldn't be surprised to see F9 try and do something here with the connections their codeshare partnership with Y4 could provide.
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 1675
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:39 pm

Judge1310 wrote:
airplaneboy wrote:
777Mech wrote:
I seem to recall FL had some success in MEX, and WN couldn't keep it going. It's a shame.


AirTran’s entry into MEX occurred after WN acquired them. It was WN’s route planning that decided that service, but FL metal was used due to WN not having international capabilities at the time. Hence why AirTran flew the SAT and SNA flights to Mexico post acquisition.


Completely wrong. FL served MEX before the WN acquired them. Just like AirTran served Aruba, Cancun, Montego Bay, Bermuda, and Nassau before having to do anything with Southwest.


Hahahahaha nope your wrong.

Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
ScottB
Posts: 6614
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:54 pm

Judge1310 wrote:
I like Southwest, but I wish they'd just stop pretending to be anything other than an airline that caters primarily to USA-based passengers.


When have they ever claimed to be anything else? They don't seem to make any effort to market themselves outside the U.S. and while they are around fifth or sixth in the world in terms of revenue passenger miles, they generally only highlight their position as the largest domestic carrier.

Judge1310 wrote:
There's still a disconnect between the folks on the ground and in the field who observe what is going on and those back on Love Field Drive who make the final decisions. Upper management had been advised from years past to invest in the CTO concept but to no avail as it didn't fit "The Southwest Way". It was a fundamental misinterpretation and misunderstanding of the local market, again, even with plenty of input from those who understood the market.


Even if they understand these issues with the market, there's still the question of whether it's actually worthwhile to make the investment in infrastructure which would support opening CTOs in Mexico and/or allowing sales in foreign currencies. Four daily round-trips into MEX equates to 0.2% of their system -- it's questionable whether committing to real estate, IT projects, etc. to support a market with larger foreign point-of-sale makes sense versus pursuing other opportunities with greater potential, especially given that WN doesn't seem to be the only carrier which has struggled with MEX. It is akin to why they took so long to commit to adding Hawaii service: They had other opportunities which offered greater rewards and/or less risk.

enilria wrote:
All these complexities are seen by middle management as poisoning the “keep it simple stupid” Southwest philosophy so there is not great enthusiasm for these projects and they either go slowly or die from suffocation before ever starting. They will get Hawaii going and it will do fine, but the slow pace of all these projects go to the core Southwest culture. Again, maybe those middle mnangement people are right. Maybe trying to change into something more complex will destroy the company. Idk. But that’s what’s happening.


The thing is, Southwest has been very successful by sticking to what they do well. Have they missed opportunities? Absolutely. But their measured pace also seems to lead to greater perseverance when adding new markets or just generally making changes to the business. I doubt, for example, that their foray into Hawaii will look like Allegiant's.
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2459
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:28 pm

The loads are to HOU-MEX have not been pretty. Just yesterday you could not even full a CR2. UA, however, is flying IAH-MEX 6x daily, with similar sized equipment. Its not a market issue, its a Southwest issue.
 
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OzarkD9S
Posts: 5381
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 am

Re: Southwest returns additional MEX slots to DOT

Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:48 pm

maps4ltd wrote:

Interesting. To go back home from NAS to STL in March, it was $450 for a 4-hour connection in FLL. Delta was running through ATL at a much more reasonable hour for $280. The only reason we chose WN is that my wife holds a companion pass--out of STL, that is often a dealbreaker.


The companion pass makes all the difference then. As a single traveller on this particular trip I just couldn't justify the extra $$$ plus the total disruption to my normal sleep cycle. For the record, I have flown WN STL to/from SJU, not an international run of course but "in the neighborhood" as it were, and would gladly do so again if the timings/price were reasonable to me.
TWA Hotel, Here I come. October, 2019 :airplane:
 
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KrustyTheKlown
Posts: 347
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Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:39 pm

The Mexico point of sale market depends a lot on cash transactions, even online stores as Amazon have introduced methods of payment that involve paying with cash at convenience stores (I think the Mexican LCCs also allow this). So Southwest is in a clear disadvantage relying in credit card-only ticket sales.

An additional factor for Southwest leaving MEX is that the airport usage fees are expensive and are only going to get more expensive with the whole cancelling the partially built new airport snafu (in that the old MEX airport usage fees will have to pay the debt incurred to built the new airport but its capacity will remain constrained indefinitely, effectively having to increase fees to LHR-level to remain solvent).
 
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usdcaguy
Posts: 1319
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Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:32 am

My impressions is that you need to be available in a GDS to make a go of it in Mexico. WN may be still be available in Sabre (and maybe Amadeus now?), but realistically, they would need to have a multichannel strategy whereby agencies can at least access them through a direct connect, and WN would also need to sell through OTAs used by Mexicans. Serious international selling outside of beach markets requires rigorous local investment and expertise, especially in a world with Mexican ULCCs.
 
travaz
Posts: 853
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:03 am

Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:15 am

There is one fact about MEX that I really dont understand. I have lived in Arizona since 1971 and in the 90's worked for a travel agency in the northern part of the state. Phoenix has a population that is 41% Hispanic. There are many more than that. It is amazing to me that PHX has one daily 319 on AA to Mex. When I worked in the agency folks that wanted to go to MEX would buy tickets from Ciudad Juarez or Tijuana to MEX, mostly in cash. They would buy one way and then use one of many shops in Mexico for the trip back North. For a lot of the people that would fly from CJS or TIJ it was because of border issues. My point is why can't the carriers out of Phoenix support several flights a day to MEX. Tucson no longer has any NS to MEX. Why can't WN make PHX MEX work
with the huge hispanic population in Arizona?
 
mga707
Posts: 178
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Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:26 am

travaz wrote:
There is one fact about MEX that I really dont understand. I have lived in Arizona since 1971 and in the 90's worked for a travel agency in the northern part of the state. Phoenix has a population that is 41% Hispanic. There are many more than that. It is amazing to me that PHX has one daily 319 on AA to Mex. When I worked in the agency folks that wanted to go to MEX would buy tickets from Ciudad Juarez or Tijuana to MEX, mostly in cash. They would buy one way and then use one of many shops in Mexico for the trip back North. For a lot of the people that would fly from CJS or TIJ it was because of border issues. My point is why can't the carriers out of Phoenix support several flights a day to MEX. Tucson no longer has any NS to MEX. Why can't WN make PHX MEX work
with the huge hispanic population in Arizona?


Tucsonan here, so the Phoenix metro may be a bit different, but at least in the Tucson/Pima County area--and throw in Santa Cruz County (Nogales) as well--there is really very little connection with the Mexico City (Districto Federal and surrounding states) area among the Hispanic population of our area. Overwhelmingly Sonora-connected, with Sinaloa a distant second place. I am surprised that no carrier has been able to make a go of TUS-HMO since AeroMexico Connect pulled out of the market over a decade ago.
 
travaz
Posts: 853
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:03 am

Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:42 am

mga707 wrote:
travaz wrote:
There is one fact about MEX that I really dont understand. I have lived in Arizona since 1971 and in the 90's worked for a travel agency in the northern part of the state. Phoenix has a population that is 41% Hispanic. There are many more than that. It is amazing to me that PHX has one daily 319 on AA to Mex. When I worked in the agency folks that wanted to go to MEX would buy tickets from Ciudad Juarez or Tijuana to MEX, mostly in cash. They would buy one way and then use one of many shops in Mexico for the trip back North. For a lot of the people that would fly from CJS or TIJ it was because of border issues. My point is why can't the carriers out of Phoenix support several flights a day to MEX. Tucson no longer has any NS to MEX. Why can't WN make PHX MEX work
with the huge hispanic population in Arizona?


Tucsonan here, so the Phoenix metro may be a bit different, but at least in the Tucson/Pima County area--and throw in Santa Cruz County (Nogales) as well--there is really very little connection with the Mexico City (Districto Federal and surrounding states) area among the Hispanic population of our area. Overwhelmingly Sonora-connected, with Sinaloa a distant second place. I am surprised that no carrier has been able to make a go of TUS-HMO since AeroMexico Connect pulled out of the market over a decade ago.


Yes you are correct but many tickets that we sold were to other cities in Mexico. They would make connections in MEX to other cities. I was located at a major tourist location North of Flagstaff where there were many Mexican Nationals working. I took a FAM trip to MEX and Los Mochis and up thru Copper Canyon on the railroad and we had to NS from TUS to Mex to LMM. At that time there were no NS from PHX. Great trip BTW and would recommend anyone to take it.
 
ScottB
Posts: 6614
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:22 am

travaz wrote:
There is one fact about MEX that I really dont understand. I have lived in Arizona since 1971 and in the 90's worked for a travel agency in the northern part of the state. Phoenix has a population that is 41% Hispanic. There are many more than that. It is amazing to me that PHX has one daily 319 on AA to Mex. When I worked in the agency folks that wanted to go to MEX would buy tickets from Ciudad Juarez or Tijuana to MEX, mostly in cash. They would buy one way and then use one of many shops in Mexico for the trip back North. For a lot of the people that would fly from CJS or TIJ it was because of border issues. My point is why can't the carriers out of Phoenix support several flights a day to MEX. Tucson no longer has any NS to MEX. Why can't WN make PHX MEX work
with the huge hispanic population in Arizona?


Well, for one, not all Hispanics in Arizona (or Texas, California, New Mexico, etc.) are Mexican or have significant ties to Mexico (i.e. folks whose families have been in the region for decades or centuries). For those that do, the connections are often with family or business in the Mexican border states and it's probably going to be more time-efficient or cost-effective to drive or fly to a U.S. border city and drive from there. Going from CJS or TIJ to MEX or anywhere else in Mexico is also likely to be much, much cheaper thanks to AA's pricing practices, Mexican LCCs/ULCCs, and not having to pay the steep taxes levied on traveling transborder.
 
Judge1310
Posts: 340
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:55 pm

Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:07 am

wnflyguy wrote:
Judge1310 wrote:
airplaneboy wrote:

AirTran’s entry into MEX occurred after WN acquired them. It was WN’s route planning that decided that service, but FL metal was used due to WN not having international capabilities at the time. Hence why AirTran flew the SAT and SNA flights to Mexico post acquisition.


Completely wrong. FL served MEX before the WN acquired them. Just like AirTran served Aruba, Cancun, Montego Bay, Bermuda, and Nassau before having to do anything with Southwest.


Hahahahaha nope your wrong.

Flyguy

And you clearly didn't see my retraction, self-correction, and subsequent apology so.... *shrug*
 
Fargo
Posts: 810
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:00 am

Re: Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:26 am

So this begs the question, if they are having trouble in international markets, and they won't codeshare, where is future growth going to come from? After Hawaii and maybe Alaska, where else is there to go?

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