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Zoedyn
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Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:39 am

10 days ago on Dec 11th, Xiamen Airlines launched direct flight btwn Fuzhou and Paris (https://www.travelindustrywire.com/article103097.html)

Just 2 days ago on Dec 19th, Hainan Airlines launched Chongqing-Paris direct flight (http://www.ecns.cn/news/2018-12-19/deta ... 4330.shtml)

Then on the very morning of today Dec 21st, Hainan Airlines again has launched Shenzhen-Paris service (https://www.perssupport.nl/persbericht/ ... ecember-21)

Impressive! Within just 10 days, Paris put 3 Chinese tier-2 cities on its longhaul network, becoming one of the most connected European capitals with China on a par with Moscow and London. For this level of extensive connectivity toward a country/region, the Chinese have an interesting hyperbole calling it "村村通”, or village-to-village connectivity, sth that Sydney and Los Angles have certainly achieved in China connectivity with their even more staggering numbers of Chinese destinations

Paris's routes to mainland China:
CDG-PEK/PVG/CAN/CTU/WUH/XIY/KMG/TNA/CKG/FOC/SZX
ORY-PEK

There is CDG-HKG/TPE too

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SFOtoORD
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:50 am

Subsidies?
 
ewt340
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:00 am

Well it's about time. The chinese money is pouring to Paris instead of London.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:20 am

Prepared for even more Chinese tourists around Paris, just for them to get robbed b/c they stay in cheap hotels in the not-so-great areas :scratchchin: :scratchchin: (In all seriousness, those Chinese tourists are definitely targets due to language barriers and also their tendency to show off money, especially since AFAIK there are not going to be many places in France that support WeChat Pay or Alipay aka those Chinese will have to pay cash).

Otherwise, the weirdest route of them all is probably TNA-CDG anyway. Operated by a French Airline (XL Airways France) no less. FOC-CDG, for example, is still a route that connect to a Skyteam hub in Europe, while WUH/KMG/CKG/SZX/CTU are more similar (based on relative size of airport, not demographics/PDEW/etc.) to big US hubs like DEN/MSP/etc. getting a flight to Europe/Asia.
 
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:29 am

[twoid][/twoid]Add KWE to that list, please. HU seems to have so many spare aircrafts that they applied for KWE-CDG(1 weekly)via CAAC recently. The route should start in Jan 2019, and should be operated by 330/787.
France is a tourism destination, but CDG is also a main gateway for transfer traffic, considering the need for transfer visa if going via London and LHR’s notorious lack of slots.
For your reference, here is the file in CAAC.
http://www.caac.gov.cn/XXGK/XXGK/TZTG/2 ... 145198.pdf
 
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:59 am

I think "村村通” means connecting to every smallville from that said airport, basically village to that big city instead of village to village. It’s a nice one :-)
 
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:41 am

Speaking of which, CGO have many cargo flights to a number of different European countries but so far none to France, will there be any plans on it?
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:01 am

Zoedyn wrote:
Impressive! Within just 10 days, Paris put 3 Chinese tier-2 cities on its longhaul network, becoming one of the most connected European capitals with China on a par with Moscow and London. For this level of extensive connectivity toward a country/region, the Chinese have an interesting hyperbole calling it "村村通”, or village-to-village connectivity, sth that Sydney and Los Angles have certainly achieved in China connectivity with their even more staggering numbers of Chinese destinations


Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Madrid and Milan should be next on that list.

Madrid is now connected to Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou (starting 2019), Xi'An (started a few days ago), Chengdu, Shenzhen and Hangzhou.
 
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:17 am

Reminds me of all the Japanese longhaul flights in the 90's before their economy retreated. My feeling is most of these Chinese secondary city flights to Europe/Australia will cease once the subsidies run out and the Chinese carriers have to foot the bill for all the operations.
 
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Zoedyn
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:41 am

Whoa. Paris is being so hot with Chinese carriers now :cloudnine:

As y'all were discussing the topic at hand, CAAC issued another notice just this afternoon (http://www.caac.gov.cn/XXGK/XXGK/TZTG/2 ... 93621.html), showing China Eastern, China Southern, Hainan Airlines all submitted applications for route authorities for furthering service from tier-2 Chinese cities to the French capital:

MU: 3x weekly Qingdao-Paris
CZ: 3x weekly Wuhan-Paris
HU: 1x weekly Guiyang-Paris


Note WUH-CDG has been already served by AF for years

If approved, the services would elevate Paris as THE European gateway to China
 
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:59 am

Umm...this will be KWE (Guiyang)’s first long-haul destination. I wonder how much money HU got from Guizhou provicial govt, bc I would be surprised if load factor gets above 50%.

Seriously, Guiyang overall is not even half as rich as CKG/CTU, and those two are maybe only half as rich as Shanghai/YRD, Jingjin, and PRD in terms of income per capita.

I guess HU has to fly all those shiny planes somewhere.
Last edited by zakuivcustom on Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
LH658
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:00 am

Which Chinese cites does AF serve?
 
workhorse
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:33 am

Surprising not to see WNZ here. If there's ONE Chinese city with massive ties to Paris, it's Wenzhou.
 
FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:35 am

LH658 wrote:
Which Chinese cites does AF serve?


PVG, PEK, CAN, WUH I belive.
HKG and TPE in Greater China.
 
workhorse
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:35 am

Qingdao not surprising at all. Plenty of economic and cultural ties between Shandong and France (wine, nuclear power, university exchanges...). I guess Jinan fits into this reasoning as well.
Last edited by workhorse on Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
VTCIE
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:40 am

workhorse wrote:
Surprising not to see WNZ here. If there's ONE Chinese city with massive ties to Paris, it's Wenzhou.


workhorse wrote:
Qingdao not surprising at all. Plenty of economic and cultural ties between Shandong and France (wine, nuclear power, university exchanges...)


No. Wuhan. I don't think Paris invests as much as Wenzhou or Qingdao as it does in Wuhan.

If a Singaporean Chinese (from Crazy Rich Asians) can spend millions of dollars in Parisian boutiques, Mainland Chinese can spend billions. I believe all these China-CDG routes are highly justified, with the possible exception of the Guiyang route (is KWE longhaul-ready?).

zoedyn wrote:
For this level of extensive connectivity toward a country/region, the Chinese have an interesting hyperbole calling it "村村通”, or village-to-village connectivity, sth that Sydney and Los Angles have certainly achieved in China connectivity with their even more staggering numbers of Chinese destinations.


True enough. It is CDG's turn now.
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:44 am

VTCIE wrote:
No. Wuhan. I don't think Paris invests as much as Wenzhou or Qingdao as it does in Wuhan.


Paris maybe does not invest that much in Wenzhou but Wenzhou certainly DOES invest in Paris!

Go for a walk in Aubervilliers / 19th / 11th district, you'll see by yourself (especially if you read Chinese). Most of the businesses there have Wenzhou in their names. "Wenzhou teahouse", "Wenzhou garment distribution", "Wenzhou decoration and building materials" etc etc etc.

My finger in the wind estimate is that more than 60% of Chinese diaspora in Paris comes from Wenzhou or around (Qingtian etc).
 
workhorse
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:33 am

One interesting addition would be Urumqi.

I have been playing in my mind with the idea of an airline with a hub in URC connecting all of China to Europe.

URC is just close enough to Europe to be able to make rotations to any European city with one aircraft (7-9 hours). Also, it is right on the Southern track from Europe to China (Moscow-Shumerlya-Bazarnye Mataki-Oktyabrsky-Shafranovo-Magnitogorsk-Kustanay-Karagandy-Ayagoz-Tacheng-Fukang-Hami and on). Urumqi is the first big Chinese city on that path (near Fukang) making it a natural doorway to China.

One could imagine late evening departures from Europe, arrival to URC at noon and an onward flight from URC to the pax's final destination in the afternoon.

One can also imagine (I can dream, can I?) the possibility to do a stopover for the Western tourists to discover Xinjiang and see that it's not all about religious extremism, reeducation camps and whatnot.
 
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:14 pm

[quote="Zoedyn"]
"Impressive! Within just 10 days, Paris put 3 Chinese tier-2 cities on its longhaul network, becoming one of the most connected European capitals with China on a par with Moscow and London."

When I first read this comment my first thought was that Paris would be way ahead of London in terms of number of Chinese destinations so I was very surprised to see from the LHR website that it serves 11 mainland Chinese cites plus HKG, and TPE but only PEK, SVG, and HKG are served by British carriers, the rest only by Chinese.

https://www.heathrow.com/plan-and-book- ... d-airlines

If LGW is added into the equation there are currently four [soon to be three] Chinese destinations, all of which are also served from LHR.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:28 pm

workhorse wrote:
One can also imagine (I can dream, can I?) the possibility to do a stopover for the Western tourists to discover Xinjiang and see that it's not all about religious extremism, reeducation camps and whatnot.


But PRC want Western tourists to see those reeducation camps, crappy treatment of the local people, etc.?

workhorse wrote:
VTCIE wrote:
No. Wuhan. I don't think Paris invests as much as Wenzhou or Qingdao as it does in Wuhan.


Paris maybe does not invest that much in Wenzhou but Wenzhou certainly DOES invest in Paris!

Go for a walk in Aubervilliers / 19th / 11th district, you'll see by yourself (especially if you read Chinese). Most of the businesses there have Wenzhou in their names. "Wenzhou teahouse", "Wenzhou garment distribution", "Wenzhou decoration and building materials" etc etc etc.

My finger in the wind estimate is that more than 60% of Chinese diaspora in Paris comes from Wenzhou or around (Qingtian etc).


Indeed true (Although I have to Google it). If FOC can fill up that JFK flight from diaspora alone, I don’t see why nobody attempted WNZ yet.

At least if Wiki is accurate, most of the newer diaspora is from NE China, though, getting heavily discriminated by the old-timers from Wenzhou, of course, as none of those Dongbei people will ever be able to learn the devil’s language (Wenzhouese).
 
workhorse
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:12 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
workhorse wrote:
One can also imagine (I can dream, can I?) the possibility to do a stopover for the Western tourists to discover Xinjiang and see that it's not all about religious extremism, reeducation camps and whatnot.


But PRC want Western tourists to see those reeducation camps, crappy treatment of the local people, etc.?


I have spent one month travelling around in Xinjiang (and enjoyed every minute of it, BTW) and I have not seen crappy treatment of the local people. Security checkpoints are a pain in the ass, for sure, but they are for everybody: Hans, Uyghurs, white Westerners like me,... everyone. There is no preferential or discriminatory treatment, everyone is checked in the same (very thorough) manner. Locals I have talked with are not fond of this setup (who would be?) but they all recognize that it is necessary to deter terrorism. As someone who comes from France, I can totally understand them.

zakuivcustom wrote:
Indeed true (Although I have to Google it). If FOC can fill up that JFK flight from diaspora alone, I don’t see why nobody attempted WNZ yet.


I am expecting it (WNZ-CDG) since years, don't understand why it isn't coming. Most of the people travelling there go either through CAN to WNZ or they fly to PVG, then take the subway to Hongqiao and then the HSR to Wenzhou. I am sure a direct flight would go full every day and wouldn't need subsidies.

I think there used to be a WNZ-FCO, but not anymore.

zakuivcustom wrote:
At least if Wiki is accurate, most of the newer diaspora is from NE China, though, getting heavily discriminated by the old-timers from Wenzhou, of course, as none of those Dongbei people will ever be able to learn the devil’s language (Wenzhouese).


:biggrin: (re: the devil's language)

As for the Northeasterners, their time will come. When Wenzhounese first came, they were looked upon with disdain by the Chinese from South-East Asia and now see how The President (one of the most famous Chinese restaurants in Paris where President Mitterand used to dine in the 80's) have been bought by a Wenzhou enterpreneur.

So, we might see a CDG-SHE too some day! :)
Last edited by workhorse on Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
B1168
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:15 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
workhorse wrote:
One can also imagine (I can dream, can I?) the possibility to do a stopover for the Western tourists to discover Xinjiang and see that it's not all about religious extremism, reeducation camps and whatnot.


But PRC want Western tourists to see those reeducation camps, crappy treatment of the local people, etc.?

workhorse wrote:
VTCIE wrote:
No. Wuhan. I don't think Paris invests as much as Wenzhou or Qingdao as it does in Wuhan.


Paris maybe does not invest that much in Wenzhou but Wenzhou certainly DOES invest in Paris!

Go for a walk in Aubervilliers / 19th / 11th district, you'll see by yourself (especially if you read Chinese). Most of the businesses there have Wenzhou in their names. "Wenzhou teahouse", "Wenzhou garment distribution", "Wenzhou decoration and building materials" etc etc etc.

My finger in the wind estimate is that more than 60% of Chinese diaspora in Paris comes from Wenzhou or around (Qingtian etc).


Indeed true (Although I have to Google it). If FOC can fill up that JFK flight from diaspora alone, I don’t see why nobody attempted WNZ yet.

At least if Wiki is accurate, most of the newer diaspora is from NE China, though, getting heavily discriminated by the old-timers from Wenzhou, of course, as none of those Dongbei people will ever be able to learn the devil’s language (Wenzhouese).


If anybody has ever been to the Chinatown in New York, you will see a LOT of people from Fuzhou. I have no clue if that apply to Wenzhou, but Wenzhou is too close to Shanghai to justify such a long&thin route.
 
B1168
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:32 pm

http://www.caac.gov.cn/XXGK/XXGK/TZTG/2 ... 604356.pdf

Latest update from CAAC. This is a scoring file for newly applied flights.
TAO-CDG:65.66
WUH-CDG:57.97
KWE-CDG:34.90

Laughs in Spanish.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:56 pm

B1168 wrote:
http://www.caac.gov.cn/XXGK/XXGK/TZTG/201812/P020181221530051604356.pdf

Latest update from CAAC. This is a scoring file for newly applied flights.
TAO-CDG:65.66
WUH-CDG:57.97
KWE-CDG:34.90

Laughs in Spanish.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Seriously zero surprises here, though. I mean, KWE can't even sustain daily flights to major SE Asia airports (BKK, KUL, and zero flights to SIN) despite its location in SW China.

B1168 wrote:
If anybody has ever been to the Chinatown in New York, you will see a LOT of people from Fuzhou. I have no clue if that apply to Wenzhou, but Wenzhou is too close to Shanghai to justify such a long&thin route.


It takes 3hrs on the fastest HSR train (and most of the trains take closer to 4hrs) from Shanghai (Hongqiao), so I wouldn't say it's "close" (It's not Hangzhou or even Nanjing...).

On the flip side, perhaps MU can change that 2/wk WNZ-PVG-FCO flight to WNZ-PVG-CDG? Or just add 2-3/wk WNZ-PVG-CDG.
 
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:06 pm

This is how the world aviation market grows without needing VLAs.
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:24 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
On the flip side, perhaps MU can change that 2/wk WNZ-PVG-FCO flight to WNZ-PVG-CDG? Or just add 2-3/wk WNZ-PVG-CDG.


I think passengers would have to disembark in PVG to go through customs / border control, making it effectively a connection. Not different from the CDG-CAN-WNZ or CDG-PEK-WNZ that exist today.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:30 pm

Revelation wrote:
This is how the world aviation market grows without needing VLAs.


More like: This is the "point-to-point" operation that Boeing was referring to on the 787. :stirthepot:

workhorse wrote:
I think passengers will have to disembark in PVG to go through customs / border control, making it effectively a connection. Not different from the CDG-CAN-WNZ or CDG-PEK-WNZ that exist today.


I don't know how things work myself (I believe that's how it works also...I've never start flying within PRC on an international flight, though). I guess the only difference is that the connection time is less and since it's the same plane, one is guarantee to make the connection at PVG.
 
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:10 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
I don't know how things work myself (I believe that's how it works also...I've never start flying within PRC on an international flight, though). I guess the only difference is that the connection time is less and since it's the same plane, one is guarantee to make the connection at PVG.


Either that or they cannot take local passengers on PVG-WNZ-PVG section.

Otherwise, on PVG-WNZ you would have local Chinese passengers arriving into the international terminal and going through passport control (while they possibly don't even have a passport), and on WNZ-PVG, in addition to that problem, you could also in theory have people flying to Europe without a visa (just buy a WNZ-PVG ticket and stay on the plane in PVG).

If they don't take local passengers, it means you have a half empty 332 flying between PVG and WNZ with international pax onboard only, which does not help the flight's finanicals a lot.
 
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c933103
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:55 pm

B1168 wrote:
http://www.caac.gov.cn/XXGK/XXGK/TZTG/201812/P020181221530051604356.pdf

Latest update from CAAC. This is a scoring file for newly applied flights.
TAO-CDG:65.66
WUH-CDG:57.97
KWE-CDG:34.90

Laughs in Spanish.

Wait Huaxia going international?
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workhorse
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:16 pm

c933103 wrote:
Wait Huaxia going international?


To Mongolia - why not? Hohhot is one of their playgrounds and there must be more than enough demand to fill a CRJ.
 
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:45 pm

ewt340 wrote:
Well it's about time. The chinese money is pouring to Paris instead of London.


And do you have any particular reason as to why you think that it's about time that Chinese money is pouring to Paris instead of London?

Walking through the streets of central London which I do every week it's like as if it's a secondary Chinese city, they are there in huge amounts spending their money I can assure you with spending at the luxury stores at an all time high and buying up property at every opportunity inflating the prices of new builds throughout the city so much so that they are far beyond the reach of the indigenous Londoner.

Paris has always been a popular destination for the Chinese as has London but Paris doesn't have a ''China Town'' like London has, walking through the streets you'd be forgiven in thinking you were actually in a Chinese city, if you haven't yet visited I recommend that you do at some point as it might well enlighten you.

There are direct flights from Jakarta to LHR if your interested in visiting the great capital city of London and even Paris can't claim that honour ;-)
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:54 pm

The 242t A330 has been a boon especially to China. That and the B789 have opened up secondary cities to Paris, London, and the USA.
 
workhorse
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:15 pm

Cunard wrote:
Paris doesn't have a ''China Town'' like London has, walking through the streets you'd be forgiven in thinking you were actually in a Chinese city,


It does:

https://www.google.com/maps/@48.8726986 ... bfov%3D100
 
Cunard
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:28 pm

Paris China Town is no where near the authenticity of the China Town in London, absolutely no comparison whatsoever, have you actually ever visited the China Town in London or seen photos or footage of it because it looks absolutely nothing like the so called Paris China Town which you've kindly provided a link to.
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zakuivcustom
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:37 pm

Cunard wrote:
Paris China Town is no where near the authenticity of the China Town in London, absolutely no comparison whatsoever, have you actually ever visited the China Town in London or seen photos or footage of it because it looks absolutely nothing like the so called Paris China Town which you've kindly provided a link to.


On ground floor, yes, Gerrard St. do look somewhat like a Chinese city. Once you look upward, though, those buildings are definitely British :scratchchin:

Paris Chinatown is spreadout, though. There's the one that workhorse linked in Belleville. Then there's the one in Arts-et-Meiters area. Of course, there's the large "Quartier Asiatique" in 13th Arrondissement. The (main) one in London is very centralized.

workhorse wrote:
Cunard wrote:
Paris doesn't have a ''China Town'' like London has, walking through the streets you'd be forgiven in thinking you were actually in a Chinese city,


It does:

https://www.google.com/maps/@48.8726986 ... bfov%3D100


"Chinese" or not, gotta love that Wenzhou Haircutter, Wenzhou Authentic Dimsum, and New Wenzhou Supermarket all on the same block :white:
 
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:45 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
Revelation wrote:
This is how the world aviation market grows without needing VLAs.


More like: This is the "point-to-point" operation that Boeing was referring to on the 787. :stirthepot:


One reality, stated two different ways.

The Parisian Chinatown network is now under construction.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:21 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
Revelation wrote:
This is how the world aviation market grows without needing VLAs.


More like: This is the "point-to-point" operation that Boeing was referring to on the 787. :stirthepot:


And to a lesser extent, the 242t A330-300 and 238t/242t A330-200. They're also very versatile for busy Chinese trunk routes. The 250-300 seat range is the sweet spot for long-haul.
 
Cunard
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:26 pm

WPvsMW

Regardless of the fact that the Parisian China Town is now under construction it still won't match the China Town in London for it's authenticity.

The worlds biggest China Town outside of mainland China is in Melbourne Australia followed by Vancouver Canada with London United Kingdom coming third place.

Paris ''Quator de Asiatique'' otherwise known as ''Triangle de Choisy'' or ''Petite Asie'' doesn't even come into the top ten of that list and if your not aware of the fact but in tenth place is Havana in Cuba.

Despite it's status as Paris ''China Town'' the neighborhood is significantly of Cambodian, Laotian and Vietnamese origin.

The Paris China Town is as your aware situated in the southeast of the 13th Arrondessement in an area that contains many high-rise apartment buildings and is the largest commercial and cultural centre for the Asian community in Paris.

The area surrounding the Paris China Town is Europes largest by population only with approximately 50,000 inhabitants most from Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam it was because of this that the area was originally called the ''Vietnamese Quarter''.
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zakuivcustom
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:02 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
Revelation wrote:
This is how the world aviation market grows without needing VLAs.


More like: This is the "point-to-point" operation that Boeing was referring to on the 787. :stirthepot:


And to a lesser extent, the 242t A330-300 and 238t/242t A330-200. They're also very versatile for busy Chinese trunk routes. The 250-300 seat range is the sweet spot for long-haul.


I'm making the statement just b/c there are far too many a.nutter crying about how 787 is not a "point-to-point" plane, that it's the same old, same old, that everyone especially in China should buy 100x A380-1000ULR. But yes, Chinese do love their A330s. :yes: (CA is the largest operator, counting pax-variant only, of A330s for a reason, with MU being 2nd and CZ 4th).

Cunard wrote:
WPvsMW

Regardless of the fact that the Parisian China Town is now under construction it still won't match the China Town in London for it's authenticity.

The worlds biggest China Town outside of mainland China is in Melbourne Australia followed by Vancouver Canada with London United Kingdom coming third place.

Paris ''Quator de Asiatique'' otherwise known as ''Triangle de Choisy'' or ''Petite Asie'' doesn't even come into the top ten of that list and if your not aware of the fact but in tenth place is Havana in Cuba.

Despite it's status as Paris ''China Town'' the neighborhood is significantly of Cambodian, Laotian and Vietnamese origin.

The Paris China Town is as your aware situated in the southeast of the 13th Arrondessement in an area that contains many high-rise apartment buildings and is the largest commercial and cultural centre for the Asian community in Paris.

The area surrounding the Paris China Town is Europes largest by population only with approximately 50,000 inhabitants most from Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam it was because of this that the area was originally called the ''Vietnamese Quarter''.


Regardless of "Size of Chinatown", most of the older Chinatowns are nothing more than "a bunch of Chinese business that operates there just b/c they have been there for years" anyway. Then there's DC Chinatown (That has Chinese signs, but almost zero Chinese businesses), or those Chinatowns in Japan (Yokohama Chinatown and Kobe Chinatown are probably visited more by local Japanese than the local Chinese population, and looks more like a tourist attraction nowaday).

Even more alternatively, how do you count the size of Chinatown in NYC? (When there are like 6 of them, so I guess you count Flushing Chinatown since that's larger than the original one in Lower Manhattan?), or even SF Bay Area (The old one in downtown SF which has Chinese-esque architecture, a small one in Oakland, and mini-Chinatown scattered around Silicon Valley). Oh, and those suburban Chinatown are anything but "authentic" (Most of them are a strip mall anchored by a Chinese supermarket, with restaurants and some random shops around them anyway)
Last edited by zakuivcustom on Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
B1168
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:05 pm

Why is Paris more popular than London? Because of the exemption of transit visa. Friendliness for transfer traffic is always key to expansion.
 
workhorse
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:24 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
Paris Chinatown is spreadout, though. There's the one that workhorse linked in Belleville. Then there's the one in Arts-et-Meiters area. Of course, there's the large "Quartier Asiatique" in 13th Arrondissement.


You are totally right.

There is no place here to do a complete course on the history of Chinese immigration in France (and it would be offtopic) but here's a brief summary:

The first wave were Chinese who were recruited as soldiers by the British and French governments for the World War I in the beginning of the 20th century. These were mostly people from Fujian, Shandong and (already) Wenzhou/Qingtian. Most of them were killed during the war (there is a huge Chinese cemetary in Normandy). Of those who survived, some settled in what is now the 12th district of Paris, on the banks of the Seine (it was called Bercy village then) and started small businesses/shops there. This was the first French Chinatown. Nothing of it remains now, the whole area has been demolished to make place for the Ministry of Finance and the Bercy park.

The second wave came between the 50s and the 70s, when refugees from Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos came to France. Amongst them, there were some ethnic Chinese (mostly of Chaozhou heritage). They settled in the newly built apartment complexes in the 13th district (Choisy avenue) and a little bit in the 3d (Arts-et-Métiers) and 11th/10th/19th/20th (Belleville).

The third wave, in the 80s, came from Wenzhou area and was driven mostly by economic ties between the French fashion industry and Chinese garment manufacturing. They settled in the 11th (Southeast of Republic place), Arts-et-Métiers and Belleville, and when their businesses expanded, they bought or rented huge warehouses in Aubervillers which became a very Chinese place as well.

The fourth wave were people from the Northeast China who were looking for jobs after the economy in their native region collapsed following the shutdown of state-owned companies in the 90s. They settled basically everywhere where there were already their fellow countrymen: Belleville, Aubervillers, Avenue de Choisy.

As of now, my observation as an active member if the Chinese-French community (I have been volunteering teaching French and providing assistance to Chinese immigrants in Paris during 10 years), is that the tide has turned. There are few newcomers and quite a bit of returns. Some of them are people who got fed up with the permanent struggle to make ends meet, racism, criminality etc. Perhaps even more revealing is the movement of the "kids": children of Chinese parents who were born in France, have French citizenship and sometimes cannot even write in Chinese because their parents thought it wasn't worth teaching. Over the last few years, I have seen an increasing number of them apply for various immigration programs of the PRC (often much to the chagrin of their parents who have worked their backsides off to provide what they thought would be a better future for their kids in France).

Which means (to get back to the topic) that we might see more Chinese tails in CDG and AF tails in China. ;)

zakuivcustom wrote:
"Chinese" or not, gotta love that Wenzhou Haircutter, Wenzhou Authentic Dimsum, and New Wenzhou Supermarket all on the same block :white:


This is were I live. Glad you liked it.
Last edited by workhorse on Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Cunard
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:42 pm

Workhorse

Yes I liked it and a very good summary and analysis and the information that you have provided is very useful and informative to the discussion especially coming from someone with firsthand knowledge.

I think that you have summarised the situation very well so I think we shall leave the subject there and continue with the aviation side of the discussion regarding this thread.

Merci Beacoup Monsieur :-)
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zakuivcustom
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:20 pm

B1168 wrote:
Why is Paris more popular than London? Because of the exemption of transit visa. Friendliness for transfer traffic is always key to expansion.


Not sure how many Chinese transit in LHR anyway. Maybe to the rest of UK but that's about it. O&D dominates those London flights either way.

workhorse wrote:
Which means (to get back to the topic) that we might see more Chinese tails in CDG and AF tails in China.


AF is still imited b/c they're mainly focused on French POS, while Chinese carriers will always dominate from those 2nd/3rd tier cities. Plus I would argue that between AF and KL, AF serves O&D traffic while KL is the one that serves more connecting traffic, similar to how things work between DL and AF/KL.

Otherwise, we just need CSX-CDG (Well, and TAO-CDG, but that should be coming soon) and Paris will have non-stop flights to all the Chinese cities with non-stop flight(s) to London, plus TNA and FOC and KMG (and KWE, if that actually gets approve). After that perhaps MF operating XMN-CDG in parallel with XMN-AMS, and also somebody operating NKG-CDG and HGH-CDG?
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:44 pm

Isn't this just basically all tourism? It's the no. 1 that place elderly Chinese people want to go to walk around in their big sunhats and swarm around in huge groups following someone with an umbrella.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:06 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
Isn't this just basically all tourism? It's the no. 1 that place elderly Chinese people want to go to walk around in their big sunhats and swarm around in huge groups following someone with an umbrella.


It's heavily driven by tourism, yes. And come on, we all know those "Dama" only buy all these random stuff from the LV boutique (Especially the one on Champs-Elysees) to go with their (insert random luxury brand here) clothes, and yes, the sunhats (which would be the only thing that's not European...well, maybe one of the French luxury brand should start a line of sunhats :scratchchin: ).

At least they don't do the "Dama Dance" in the middle of Place Charles de Gaulle :white: .
 
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c933103
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:01 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
B1168 wrote:
http://www.caac.gov.cn/XXGK/XXGK/TZTG/201812/P020181221530051604356.pdf

Latest update from CAAC. This is a scoring file for newly applied flights.
TAO-CDG:65.66
WUH-CDG:57.97
KWE-CDG:34.90

Laughs in Spanish.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Seriously zero surprises here, though. I mean, KWE can't even sustain daily flights to major SE Asia airports (BKK, KUL, and zero flights to SIN) despite its location in SW China.


Those numbers are more about the airlines performance than the airport, although it also have some metrics that measure the connectivity and the degree of the airport as a hub to the applying airlines. Seems like the new application model put HNA, and also their entire business model of opening long haul routes from smaller cities, and that their lack of a strong hub, at a real disadvantage. The proposed KWE service was also only 1x weekly which further lowered the score of this HNA application. It probably mean we will be seeing fewer third tier city long haul routes from now on.
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B1168
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:31 am

c933103 wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
B1168 wrote:
http://www.caac.gov.cn/XXGK/XXGK/TZTG/201812/P020181221530051604356.pdf

Latest update from CAAC. This is a scoring file for newly applied flights.
TAO-CDG:65.66
WUH-CDG:57.97
KWE-CDG:34.90

Laughs in Spanish.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Seriously zero surprises here, though. I mean, KWE can't even sustain daily flights to major SE Asia airports (BKK, KUL, and zero flights to SIN) despite its location in SW China.


Those numbers are more about the airlines performance than the airport, although it also have some metrics that measure the connectivity and the degree of the airport as a hub to the applying airlines. Seems like the new application model put HNA, and also their entire business model of opening long haul routes from smaller cities, and that their lack of a strong hub, at a real disadvantage. The proposed KWE service was also only 1x weekly which further lowered the score of this HNA application. It probably mean we will be seeing fewer third tier city long haul routes from now on.


Sort of. As a matter of fact, there are only 2 reasons to do so:
1. Absorb the redundant available flight hours, since they kept buying planes;
2. Get subsidies, lots of them.
 
Thibault973
Posts: 334
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:34 am

The flight just started but I can tell you that all of MF’a flights to FOC departed virtually full from CDG since it’s started. I was on this flight last Tuesday and there was not a single empty seat, including F.

On a aidé note, TLS-TSE is supposed to happened next year on GS and both MRS and NCE are in talks to get direct Chinese flights in the next two years (MRS gets scheduled charters from INC on Korean air and apparently it’s working out pretty great).
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:54 am

....from ICN...
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Paris saw sudden spike in connectivity with secondary cities in China

Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:46 am

Thibault973 wrote:
On a aidé note, TLS-TSE is supposed to happened next year on GS and both MRS and NCE are in talks to get direct Chinese flights in the next two years (MRS gets scheduled charters from INC on Korean air and apparently it’s working out pretty great).


Does France has an airline similar to Neos? I know XL Airways France do somewhat operate like a charter airline, so maybe they can operate some charters? The MRS flight is definitely very seasonal (i.e. summer only during lavender season) and fits better with a charter operation than even a schedule seasonal flight.

c933103 wrote:
Those numbers are more about the airlines performance than the airport, although it also have some metrics that measure the connectivity and the degree of the airport as a hub to the applying airlines. Seems like the new application model put HNA, and also their entire business model of opening long haul routes from smaller cities, and that their lack of a strong hub, at a real disadvantage. The proposed KWE service was also only 1x weekly which further lowered the score of this HNA application. It probably mean we will be seeing fewer third tier city long haul routes from now on.


I did read through that, the scoring system is definitely confusing. The proposed flight is getting low mark across multiple criterion, though.

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