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No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:23 am
by TheSonntag
According to the usually well informed site "Lufthansa Taufnamen" www.lh-taufnamen.de , the retirement of some A320s of Lufthansa will only start in 2019. Until recently, the site said that the retirement of some of the oldest A320 was to start in 2018.

While LH is still taking delivery of A320CEOs and NEOs, they still have a substantial fleet of very ancient A320s. D-AIPA und D-AIPB were delivered before the collapse of the Berlin wall in 1989.

While LH had long Lasting planes before, 29 years has not been achieved before. The recently retired 737 classics did not last that long.

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:13 am
by upperdeckfan
NEO's and CEO's are coming slower than expected.

Classic's retirement likey start until after 2019 summer peak season.

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:23 pm
by Revelation
upperdeckfan wrote:
NEO's and CEO's are coming slower than expected.

Classic's retirement likey start until after 2019 summer peak season.

I read a quote from LH saying they had only gotten half the NEOs they had planned on and they were only flying half the hours they were planned to fly, so retirement of CEOs had been put on hold.

The situation should resolve itself quite quickly since we are seeing the glider population drop and are not hearing of any further issues.

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:26 pm
by BWIAirport
Do any of their earliest A320s still feature no wingtip device at all?

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:27 pm
by Blerg
Could it also be because of AB's demise and increased demand they experienced?

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:31 pm
by leleko747
BWIAirport wrote:
Do any of their earliest A320s still feature no wingtip device at all?


Nope. The only A320s without wingtip fences are the A320-100s, and AFAIK they have all been retired/scrapped.

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:12 pm
by md-87er
On a recent trip I had the chance to compare one of those early birds to a brand new NEO. To be honest there was not much difference (even noise in the cabin).
LH does a good job in maintaining their aircraft...
So unless they run out of cycles there is no problem in keeping them flying.

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:39 pm
by TheSonntag
I wonder whether they let D-Aipa turn 30 or not and if they scrap it. While it is already msn 69 it belongs in a museum.

At any way an A320 lasting 30 years doing short haul should clearly debunk any myth regarding the longetivity of the A320.

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:02 pm
by Bhoy
leleko747 wrote:
BWIAirport wrote:
Do any of their earliest A320s still feature no wingtip device at all?


Nope. The only A320s without wingtip fences are the A320-100s, and AFAIK they have all been retired/scrapped.

Yeah, there were only 21 -100s built, before production was standardised on the -200 (which has the wingfences).
The -100s were ordered by Air Inter, Air France and British Caledonian.

Air Inter operated them for a short while before merging with AF, and the B-Cal ones were all delivered to BA post merger.

Both Air Inter (Strasbourg) and Air France (Habsheim) suffered a crash each, and 18 of the other 19 have been scrapped. The last one is MSN 1, which Airbus has officially 'stored' (though I think it was scrapped, too)

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:03 pm
by Lilienthal
TheSonntag wrote:
usually well informed site "Lufthansa Taufnamen" http://www.lh-taufnamen.de



Not sure about that. It has the LH A350 D-AIXL marked down as the first A350 with the upgraded new colors but it was delivered with the old version a month ago. Still hasn't been corrected.

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:45 pm
by NDiesel
I was on D-AIPL a while ago and had no idea I was flying a 29 year old frame. It looked immaculate with a new cabin. LH sure take good care of their A320s.

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:09 pm
by zkncj
How does LH make an A320 last 29 years? Which surely allot of that must of been short-haul high flying cycles? They must have to invest allot on up keep Maitiance to keep them going?

When you get some airlines that are already replacing A320CEO’s that are only 8-9 years old for new A320s

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:22 pm
by 1989worstyear
zkncj wrote:
How does LH make an A320 last 29 years? Which surely allot of that must of been short-haul high flying cycles? They must have to invest allot on up keep Maitiance to keep them going?

When you get some airlines that are already replacing A320CEO’s that are only 8-9 years old for new A320s


AB has a life extension program that extends the cycle limit to I believe 60k, and upgrades some of the avionics LRU's to the most recent dash numbers.

It's been pretty popular in the last 10 years.

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:06 am
by BOEING777EK
LH recently added 2 A320 CEOs and a NEO to their fleet. I'd imagine some of LHs older bird either transferred to Eurowings or sent to the scrappers soon.

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:18 am
by 787X30
TheSonntag wrote:
...

At any way an A320 lasting 30 years doing short haul should clearly debunk any myth regarding the longetivity of the A320.


This. And while LH aircraft have lasted more than 30 years every now and then, they've never in LH duty yet.

The A320 already surpassed the 727 fleet at LH in longevity - the eventual margin of which remains speculative.

Thursday's twin delivery of CEOs Whiskey Charlie and Whiskey Delta marks the 31st year of operation of the Computerflieger at Lufthansa.

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:23 am
by 1989worstyear
787X30 wrote:
TheSonntag wrote:
...

At any way an A320 lasting 30 years doing short haul should clearly debunk any myth regarding the longetivity of the A320.


This. And while LH aircraft have lasted more than 30 years every now and then, they've never in LH duty yet.

The A320 already surpassed the 727 fleet at LH in longevity - the eventual margin of which remains speculative.

Thursday's twin delivery of CEOs Whiskey Charlie and Whiskey Delta marks the 31st year of operation of the Computerflieger at Lufthansa.


This is likely due to the fact the design has largely remained exactly the same until the NEO, and with the ESG program, there's little reason to get rid of them.

This isn't some obsolete pre-1988 design like the 757, many of which are being retired with plenty of life left in them (Xiamen). Innovation slowed considerably immediately following 1988.

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:33 am
by seahawk
zkncj wrote:
How does LH make an A320 last 29 years? Which surely allot of that must of been short-haul high flying cycles? They must have to invest allot on up keep Maitiance to keep them going?

When you get some airlines that are already replacing A320CEO’s that are only 8-9 years old for new A320s


Lufthansa Technik - the old birds were kind of prototypes for the installation of service life extensions or modernisations to old A320s that would be offered to other airlines as well. The service records of those planes are perfect marketing material if you want to show how good your maintenance is. Up to the day they are still showing a dispatch reliability in line with the rest of the fleet and beating the NEOs.

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:17 am
by lightsaber
What is the fleet leader in terms of cycles? Hours? I suspect hours will drive retirement at LH.


Blerg wrote:
Could it also be because of AB's demise and increased demand they experienced?

I expect that and late NEOs.

Lightsaber

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:04 am
by seahawk
MSN69 should be at closing in on 55.000+ cycles 65.000+ hours, I think she is the leader on cycles. Others in the fleet have long surpassed 80.000 hours and around 40.000 cycles.

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:50 am
by lightsaber
Ok, I found a new link with good information:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 0n-454247/

It looks like LH is behind on NEO deliveries by 7 and is unable to fly them as intensely as CEIs (73% as much, the prior reported 50% was a really bad period).

My interpretation of the link is normal opperations could occur if LH had a few more spare engines, but that they just are not available. I personally do not buy the Pratt response on flight hours, not with zero spare engines and only a 99.1% dispatch reliability (LH works for 99.8%).

Both engines are having issues, but CFM seems to have enough spares to keep the fleet flying better.

I also note 2% of the engines have the vibration issue, but that seems to be going away with overhauls.

So Pratt, CFM, and Airbus all contributed to LH holding on to old CEOs.


However, I find it facinating how much less older CEOs fly than new, but how NEOs (my interpretation is both) cannot be flown as intensely as CEIs, with Pratt having more issues. :(

Seahawk,
Thank you for the information. I recall (but could be wrong) that LH has an example that would have so few hours available after the next major service that the service isn't worthwhile. While 55,000 cycles is a lot, that is over a year of additional service, unless a costly check is due

Lightsaber

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:10 am
by itisi
I was on D-AIPK last August.... 29 years old!

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:55 am
by AlexA340B777
First 6 A320s (D-AIPA/B/C/D/E/F) to leave fleet in 2019 according to:

https://sites.google.com/site/lhgroupfleet/lufthansa

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:52 pm
by seahawk
One idea is to keep the longer as reserve frames in the fleet. One could go to MUC, one to FRA and one to DUS, maybe one to VIE as well.As long as the NEOs do not perform perfectly, this idea has a lot of fans.

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:12 pm
by mxaxai
Bhoy wrote:
leleko747 wrote:
BWIAirport wrote:
Do any of their earliest A320s still feature no wingtip device at all?


Nope. The only A320s without wingtip fences are the A320-100s, and AFAIK they have all been retired/scrapped.

Yeah, there were only 21 -100s built, before production was standardised on the -200 (which has the wingfences).
The -100s were ordered by Air Inter, Air France and British Caledonian.

Air Inter operated them for a short while before merging with AF, and the B-Cal ones were all delivered to BA post merger.

Both Air Inter (Strasbourg) and Air France (Habsheim) suffered a crash each, and 18 of the other 19 have been scrapped. The last one is MSN 1, which Airbus has officially 'stored' (though I think it was scrapped, too)

MSN 1 was used as test frame by Airbus and not only carried the early wingtip fences but also the sharklets. She is / will be in the Aeroscopia museum in Toulouse in her 1st flight condition (i. e. with clean wingtips).

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:24 pm
by aemoreira1981
TheSonntag wrote:
I wonder whether they let D-Aipa turn 30 or not and if they scrap it. While it is already msn 69 it belongs in a museum.

At any way an A320 lasting 30 years doing short haul should clearly debunk any myth regarding the longetivity of the A320.


Air Canada has A320s as old as LH as well. They’re only now being retired.

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:37 pm
by Bhoy
aemoreira1981 wrote:
TheSonntag wrote:
I wonder whether they let D-Aipa turn 30 or not and if they scrap it. While it is already msn 69 it belongs in a museum.

At any way an A320 lasting 30 years doing short haul should clearly debunk any myth regarding the longetivity of the A320.


Air Canada has A320s as old as LH as well. They’re only now being retired.

That's a point. MSN 59 is still active at Air Canada as C-FDQQ, her first flight was in October '89.

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:45 pm
by 1989worstyear
seahawk wrote:
One idea is to keep the longer as reserve frames in the fleet. One could go to MUC, one to FRA and one to DUS, maybe one to VIE as well.As long as the NEOs do not perform perfectly, this idea has a lot of fans.


Why not - with the life extensions mods they're just as modern and efficient as a new CEO. Very little has changed on the design since November of '88.

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:35 pm
by Thenoflyzone
Bhoy wrote:
That's a point. MSN 59 is still active at Air Canada as C-FDQQ, her first flight was in October '89.


Speaking of old A320s, the oldest A320 still flying, JY-JAC, msn 29, Jordan Aviation, turned 30 years old today. Granted the frame was stored for a few years here and there.....

First flight 05/01/1989

https://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-a320-29.htm

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/jy-jac

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:54 pm
by djb77
I traveled on D-AIPD (1989 build) and D-AIUO (2015 build) FRA<>GLA last week and bar the older overheads in D-AIPD, the untrained eye would not have spotted any differences. I was very impressed. I got the slight impression that I had better legroom on the newer frame - I was seated in 06D on both flights - but maybe my mind and body were playing tricks on me.

Slightly off topic, but I am going to ask anyway: what will the door configuration of LH's A321neos be (expected to seat 215 pax)? Are they to retain the same door configuration as the current A321-100/-200s but with the space-saving toilet configuration at the rear?

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:31 pm
by aemoreira1981
Bhoy wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
TheSonntag wrote:
I wonder whether they let D-Aipa turn 30 or not and if they scrap it. While it is already msn 69 it belongs in a museum.

At any way an A320 lasting 30 years doing short haul should clearly debunk any myth regarding the longetivity of the A320.


Air Canada has A320s as old as LH as well. They’re only now being retired.

That's a point. MSN 59 is still active at Air Canada as C-FDQQ, her first flight was in October '89.


The oldest one I have personally photographed, BTW, was (post-US/AA merger) a US Airways A320 that was ex-Braniff (N624AW); that frame has since been scrapped; it was the 55th A320 built.

As for LH, a lot of the B733s didn't reach 30 with LH, but did reach 30 after a batch were sold by LH to LS (G-CELI being one that finally died after 2 depressurization incidents).

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:01 pm
by lightsaber
1989worstyear wrote:
seahawk wrote:
One idea is to keep the longer as reserve frames in the fleet. One could go to MUC, one to FRA and one to DUS, maybe one to VIE as well.As long as the NEOs do not perform perfectly, this idea has a lot of fans.


Why not - with the life extensions mods they're just as modern and efficient as a new CEO. Very little has changed on the design since November of '88.

Nitpick, a new build with Sharklets is about 1800 kg lighter. That makes a difference on longer routes. Also, the engines age. Unless the casing has been replaced, a new engine is a little more efficient. Not enough.

My prior post has a link to utilization. Basically, due to the added maintenance requirements, LH is only able to fly an old CEO 80% as much as a new CEO.

These are still economical for peak flying. Monday, Thursday, Friday, and Sunday plus holidays. It what is these airframes are best for. They simply need a few hundred grand of maintenance per year, which means downtime.

The issue is they do not have enough flight cycles (FC) or flight hours left to pay off the 30 day maintenance labor hour.

Lightsaber

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:28 pm
by sciing
djb77 wrote:
Slightly off topic, but I am going to ask anyway: what will the door configuration of LH's A321neos be (expected to seat 215 pax)? Are they to retain the same door configuration as the current A321-100/-200s but with the space-saving toilet configuration at the rear?

Several site list the 1st one as ACF, ...NX
https://aibfamily.flights/A320/8761
https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/ ... a/J8L5HZM5
I guess there will be no A321neo HoVs as non-ACF version anymore.

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:47 pm
by Someone83
Flew D-AIPA this summer and while well maintained the cabin doesn’t exactly look brand new

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:24 pm
by 1989worstyear
lightsaber wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
seahawk wrote:
One idea is to keep the longer as reserve frames in the fleet. One could go to MUC, one to FRA and one to DUS, maybe one to VIE as well.As long as the NEOs do not perform perfectly, this idea has a lot of fans.


Why not - with the life extensions mods they're just as modern and efficient as a new CEO. Very little has changed on the design since November of '88.

Nitpick, a new build with Sharklets is about 1800 kg lighter. That makes a difference on longer routes. Also, the engines age. Unless the casing has been replaced, a new engine is a little more efficient. Not enough.

My prior post has a link to utilization. Basically, due to the added maintenance requirements, LH is only able to fly an old CEO 80% as much as a new CEO.

These are still economical for peak flying. Monday, Thursday, Friday, and Sunday plus holidays. It what is these airframes are best for. They simply need a few hundred grand of maintenance per year, which means downtime.

The issue is they do not have enough flight cycles (FC) or flight hours left to pay off the 30 day maintenance labor hour.

Lightsaber


Still - a drop in the bucket compared to the time the CEO has been around (30 years and 2 months for the -200). As you indicated, DLH's utilization seems to be based purely on the age and cycle limit of these frames, not their design being inefficient or costly to maintain (from the start). This never seems to be case for the 757 or 767, which are usually retired at young ages due to being inefficient from the pre-1988 EIS.

These old LH A320's are proof of the 1988 factor - none of the technology existed to build an A320 before 1987 - and NB technology has remained the same since.

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:50 pm
by lightsaber
1989worstyear wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:

Why not - with the life extensions mods they're just as modern and efficient as a new CEO. Very little has changed on the design since November of '88.

Nitpick, a new build with Sharklets is about 1800 kg lighter. That makes a difference on longer routes. Also, the engines age. Unless the casing has been replaced, a new engine is a little more efficient. Not enough.

My prior post has a link to utilization. Basically, due to the added maintenance requirements, LH is only able to fly an old CEO 80% as much as a new CEO.

These are still economical for peak flying. Monday, Thursday, Friday, and Sunday plus holidays. It what is these airframes are best for. They simply need a few hundred grand of maintenance per year, which means downtime.

The issue is they do not have enough flight cycles (FC) or flight hours left to pay off the 30 day maintenance labor hour.

Lightsaber


Still - a drop in the bucket compared to the time the CEO has been around (30 years and 2 months for the -200). As you indicated, DLH's utilization seems to be based purely on the age and cycle limit of these frames, not their design being inefficient or costly to maintain (from the start). This never seems to be case for the 757 or 767, which are usually retired at young ages due to being inefficient from the pre-1988 EIS.

These old LH A320's are proof of the 1988 factor - none of the technology existed to build an A320 before 1987 - and NB technology has remained the same since.

I disagree. Technology has moved forward.
The quantity of sensors in a neo dwarfs the early ceis, this will dramatically reduce unexpected maintenance... Eventually (the break in period hasn't been good).

The A220-300 weighs 7.6 tons less than the A319 and thus the A220-300 carries a passenger for less than the A320.

The avionics in the latest CEO and NEO just put 1988 technology to shame.

Next generation is underside (of the wing) laminar flow wings which needs aspect ratio (folding wingtips?) to enable.

Technology has moved forward. Airbus did an excellent job incorporating new materials, coatings, and sensors to the A320 family (CEO and NEO).

But look at the 787, technology allows a widebody to have a far greater limit of validity than a narrowbody.
787 has 66,000 Flight cycles, 200,000 hours, and 36 years on corrosion (highest FAA allowed at EIS).

The A320 is good for 60,000 FC and 120,000 FH.

Once the NEO is debugged, CEO retirements will accelerate. Saving on unplanned maintenance and 16% on fuel adds up.

Subsystems on the A220 (and 787) save 3% in fuel burn. When will the A320 receive such electrical subsystems? CFRP wing? About 4 tons of the C-series/A220 weight savings.

It takes having over 20% of the global fleet operating the latest generation of aircraft to make this competitively obvious. So we're at about current generation 800 out of a needed 3,200+ to change the competitive landscape. About 2 years to go...

Lightsaber

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:29 pm
by 1989worstyear
lightsaber wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Nitpick, a new build with Sharklets is about 1800 kg lighter. That makes a difference on longer routes. Also, the engines age. Unless the casing has been replaced, a new engine is a little more efficient. Not enough.

My prior post has a link to utilization. Basically, due to the added maintenance requirements, LH is only able to fly an old CEO 80% as much as a new CEO.

These are still economical for peak flying. Monday, Thursday, Friday, and Sunday plus holidays. It what is these airframes are best for. They simply need a few hundred grand of maintenance per year, which means downtime.

The issue is they do not have enough flight cycles (FC) or flight hours left to pay off the 30 day maintenance labor hour.

Lightsaber


Still - a drop in the bucket compared to the time the CEO has been around (30 years and 2 months for the -200). As you indicated, DLH's utilization seems to be based purely on the age and cycle limit of these frames, not their design being inefficient or costly to maintain (from the start). This never seems to be case for the 757 or 767, which are usually retired at young ages due to being inefficient from the pre-1988 EIS.

These old LH A320's are proof of the 1988 factor - none of the technology existed to build an A320 before 1987 - and NB technology has remained the same since.

I disagree. Technology has moved forward.
The quantity of sensors in a neo dwarfs the early ceis, this will dramatically reduce unexpected maintenance... Eventually (the break in period hasn't been good).

The A220-300 weighs 7.6 tons less than the A319 and thus the A220-300 carries a passenger for less than the A320.

The avionics in the latest CEO and NEO just put 1988 technology to shame.

Next generation is underside (of the wing) laminar flow wings which needs aspect ratio (folding wingtips?) to enable.

Technology has moved forward. Airbus did an excellent job incorporating new materials, coatings, and sensors to the A320 family (CEO and NEO).

But look at the 787, technology allows a widebody to have a far greater limit of validity than a narrowbody.
787 has 66,000 Flight cycles, 200,000 hours, and 36 years on corrosion (highest FAA allowed at EIS).

The A320 is good for 60,000 FC and 120,000 FH.

Once the NEO is debugged, CEO retirements will accelerate. Saving on unplanned maintenance and 16% on fuel adds up.

Subsystems on the A220 (and 787) save 3% in fuel burn. When will the A320 receive such electrical subsystems? CFRP wing? About 4 tons of the C-series/A220 weight savings.

It takes having over 20% of the global fleet operating the latest generation of aircraft to make this competitively obvious. So we're at about current generation 800 out of a needed 3,200+ to change the competitive landscape. About 2 years to go...

Lightsaber


You even admit the efficiency gains between a new CEO and one of these older LH birds are only a few percentage points - pretty pitiful for a three decade time span filled with higher fuel prices and environmental concerns, if you ask me.

Also, one could say the same things about the 763 - but that didn't help it (1986 EIS doomed it, Boeing should have waited a few years). The first generation of the A320, on the other hand, remained the king for 27 years with only a few small updates, and even the NEO still uses the same as wing the first -200 from 1988.

The A320 was lucky in that it was introduced about a year before the world changed its priorities - that ensured its longevity.

Dang... I need several drinks after this...

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:06 am
by lightsaber
1989worstyear wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:

Still - a drop in the bucket compared to the time the CEO has been around (30 years and 2 months for the -200). As you indicated, DLH's utilization seems to be based purely on the age and cycle limit of these frames, not their design being inefficient or costly to maintain (from the start). This never seems to be case for the 757 or 767, which are usually retired at young ages due to being inefficient from the pre-1988 EIS.

These old LH A320's are proof of the 1988 factor - none of the technology existed to build an A320 before 1987 - and NB technology has remained the same since.

I disagree. Technology has moved forward.
The quantity of sensors in a neo dwarfs the early ceis, this will dramatically reduce unexpected maintenance... Eventually (the break in period hasn't been good).

The A220-300 weighs 7.6 tons less than the A319 and thus the A220-300 carries a passenger for less than the A320.

The avionics in the latest CEO and NEO just put 1988 technology to shame.

Next generation is underside (of the wing) laminar flow wings which needs aspect ratio (folding wingtips?) to enable.

Technology has moved forward. Airbus did an excellent job incorporating new materials, coatings, and sensors to the A320 family (CEO and NEO).

But look at the 787, technology allows a widebody to have a far greater limit of validity than a narrowbody.
787 has 66,000 Flight cycles, 200,000 hours, and 36 years on corrosion (highest FAA allowed at EIS).

The A320 is good for 60,000 FC and 120,000 FH.

Once the NEO is debugged, CEO retirements will accelerate. Saving on unplanned maintenance and 16% on fuel adds up.

Subsystems on the A220 (and 787) save 3% in fuel burn. When will the A320 receive such electrical subsystems? CFRP wing? About 4 tons of the C-series/A220 weight savings.

It takes having over 20% of the global fleet operating the latest generation of aircraft to make this competitively obvious. So we're at about current generation 800 out of a needed 3,200+ to change the competitive landscape. About 2 years to go...

Lightsaber


You even admit the efficiency gains between a new CEO and one of these older LH birds are only a few percentage points - pretty pitiful for a three decade time span filled with higher fuel prices and environmental concerns, if you ask me.

Also, one could say the same things about the 763 - but that didn't help it (1986 EIS doomed it, Boeing should have waited a few years). The first generation of the A320, on the other hand, remained the king for 27 years with only a few small updates, and even the NEO still uses the same as wing the first -200 from 1988.

The A320 was lucky in that it was introduced about a year before the world changed its priorities - that ensured its longevity.

Dang... I need several drinks after this...

About 7% for a new CEO vs. out the door in 1988. The NEO burn 16% less.

It was a period of poor improvements. The A220-300 burns over 20% less than an A319CEO.

So if you stick with CEO, improvements were behind trend. The 738 cut fuel burn 12%>

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:20 am
by lightsaber
1989worstyear,

You do realize it cost about $9 million to bring that 1988 CEO up to today's CEO, right? That is what I estimate the improvements to the CEO cost per Airframe.

For Airbus to develop the OIPs was billions, much masked in the NEO development (hand me down upgrades). The engine upgrades we're a couple billion of R&D (much of that $9 million).

Not to mention all the structural reinforcement to go from 48,000 FC to 60,000 FC as well as from 60,000 FH to 120,000.

However a new build has a lower maintenance budget (thanks to added sensors).

If you are saying an existing design cannot be improved as much as a new, I agree (A220).

Lightsaber

Re: No retirements of LH A320s in 2018

Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:25 pm
by BOEING777EK
LH A320 D-AIPD just flew MUC-MLA as LH9926 possibly for livery removal amid retirement.
Source: https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... d#1fb8f0db