VTCIE
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Why does El Al not serve AMM or IST, but TK and RJ serve TLV?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:16 am

While it may not surprise knowledgeable people that there is no flight from TLV to Dubai, Kuwait, JED or even nearby BEY, or for that matter just about any Middle Eastern destination, it is surprising that there is indeed a flight to a proper Middle Eastern destination, namely Amman, and it provides passengers with the next best thing to a TLV-DXB non-stop flight (that is, if anybody is foolhardy enough to fly from Tel Aviv to Dubai in the first place).

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=tlv-amm-dxb& ... 0x360&PM=* (I am not able to load the image.)

But only Royal Jordanian flies AMM-TLV. El Al does not serve Amman. The same goes for Istanbul, where Turkish Airlines flies IST-TLV (actually ISL-TLV until the New Year), and also Cairo (EgyptAir's 'ghost' subsidiary Air Sinai flies TLV-CAI). But why does El Al itself not serve Jordan, Turkey or Egypt?

P.S. Do you agree that EK would jump at a DXB-TLV flight if such an impossible thing were to happen?
In grieving remembrance of the thousands of people who lost their lives on ET-AVJ, PK-LQP, XA-UHZ, S2-AGU, CP-2933, SU-GCC, EI-ETJ, D-AIPX, PK-AXC, 9M-MRD, VT-AXV and above all 9M-MRO, besides many more. Your deaths are not in vain. Safety first, always.
 
lhrsfosyd
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Re: Why does El Al not serve AMM or IST, but TK and RJ serve TLV?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:35 am

Politics. Israel has relatively good relationship with Turkey and Jordan hence you see air service between the countries. RJ and TK use their hubs to funnel traffic between rest of the world and Israel. Air Sinai also caters to limited demand between Israel and Egypt. You won't see LY jump on those routes as TLV is not a transfer hub.
 
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flyingsikh
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Re: Why does El Al not serve AMM or IST, but TK and RJ serve TLV?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:41 am

Most folks flying Royal Jordanian Tel Aviv - Amman are connecting passengers....thus El Al doesn’t bother with the route anymore.

Same could be said about the Cairo flights...I actually thought the Cairo flights had ended with Air Sinai...perhaps I’m wrong on that belief.

El Al did fly to Istanbul for years....but with Turkish and Pegasus also flying the route, it’s simply over capacity. Israeli - Turkish relations have also stumbled over the last few years. Perhaps when relations improve, and capacity on the route needs to be increase El Al will throw a plane at the route. In the mean time...El AL’s small fleet can be better utilized else where on more profitable routes.
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THY748i
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Re: Why does El Al not serve AMM or IST, but TK and RJ serve TLV?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:43 am

Here‘s an article as to why they suspended flights to Turkey in 2004. Don‘t know if they ever flew to Turkey again afterwards. They also used to have flights to AYT at some point:
https://www.haaretz.com/1.4723643

With the turkish carriers offering 10+ daily rotations to/from IST/SAW any O&D traffic should be accounted for and El Al doesn‘t really offer anything connection wise so it‘s probably just not worth it for them.
 
VTCIE
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Re: Why does El Al not serve AMM or IST, but TK and RJ serve TLV?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:49 am

lhrsfosyd wrote:
Politics. Israel has relatively good relationship with Turkey and Jordan hence you see air service between the countries. RJ and TK use their hubs to funnel traffic between rest of the world and Israel. Air Sinai also caters to limited demand between Israel and Egypt. You won't see LY jump on those routes as TLV is not a transfer hub.


I know that. My question is different. Why does LY not fly them, but TK, RJ and 4D (Air Sinai) do?

flyingsikh wrote:
Most folks flying Royal Jordanian Tel Aviv - Amman are connecting passengers....thus El Al doesn’t bother with the route anymore.


Shouldn't an airline fly to all possible nearby destinations of importance if it is allowed to do so?
In grieving remembrance of the thousands of people who lost their lives on ET-AVJ, PK-LQP, XA-UHZ, S2-AGU, CP-2933, SU-GCC, EI-ETJ, D-AIPX, PK-AXC, 9M-MRD, VT-AXV and above all 9M-MRO, besides many more. Your deaths are not in vain. Safety first, always.
 
ramzi
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Re: Why does El Al not serve AMM or IST, but TK and RJ serve TLV?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:53 am

VTCIE wrote:

P.S. Do you agree that EK would jump at a DXB-TLV flight if such an impossible thing were to happen?


They jump on everything, so probably. It would certainly be an interesting change to aviation dynamics in the region. Does anyone really expect that to happen in the next 50 years or so? Nope.
There will come a time when you believe everything is finished - that will be the beginning.
 
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gunsontheroof
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Re: Why does El Al not serve AMM or IST, but TK and RJ serve TLV?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:40 am

VTCIE wrote:
lhrsfosyd wrote:
Politics. Israel has relatively good relationship with Turkey and Jordan hence you see air service between the countries. RJ and TK use their hubs to funnel traffic between rest of the world and Israel. Air Sinai also caters to limited demand between Israel and Egypt. You won't see LY jump on those routes as TLV is not a transfer hub.


I know that. My question is different. Why does LY not fly them, but TK, RJ and 4D (Air Sinai) do?

flyingsikh wrote:
Most folks flying Royal Jordanian Tel Aviv - Amman are connecting passengers....thus El Al doesn’t bother with the route anymore.


Shouldn't an airline fly to all possible nearby destinations of importance if it is allowed to do so?


1) the question was already answered in the post you quoted. TK, RJ and 4D all have hubs to feed on TLV-IST/AMM/CAI where LY does not. TLV isn't really a "hub" by definition--it would more accurately be called a base.

2) No. Lack of o/d traffic between Israel/Arab neighbors makes it a non-starter for one, the afformentioned lack of connections at TLV pushes it into the "no chance" column. LY doesn't have metal to mess around with anyway.
Picked a hell of a week to quit sniffing glue.
 
EBiafore99
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Re: Why does El Al not serve AMM or IST, but TK and RJ serve TLV?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:48 am

I believe is has to do with the passenger base. My guess is the passenger base for the TLV-AMM flight consists of Arab Israelis and Palestinians who are making connections through Amman. I highly doubt those passengers would use El Al.
 
aldrigsomandre
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Re: Why does El Al not serve AMM or IST, but TK and RJ serve TLV?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:55 am

The real reason why El Al doesn't serve IST and AYT is that Turkish authorities have issues with Israeli security measures on flights to TLV and they do not want Mossad agents on the ground. They tried to get Israel to accept private security on the ground, but they declined, so El Al stopped flights all together. Until Turkey and Israel agree on security measures, El Al won't be able to fly to Turkey, not just IST.

In fact, El Al is rather bitter about not being able to fly to Turkey. If they could, they would. This is a matter that El Al administration brings up frequently in interviews because they are constantly being bombarded by questions of TK surpassing 1 million passenger mark out of TLV.
 
SFOThinker
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Re: Why does El Al not serve AMM or IST, but TK and RJ serve TLV?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:18 pm

Just for the record: El Al did fly the CAI-TLV route after the two countries opened relations. I took that flight around 20 years ago. El Al had its own security people at CAI and they gave me by far the most rigorous security examination I have ever encountered, up to and including calling up my hosts in Israel to verify that I had a legitimate business reason for travel to Israel.
 
RJNUT
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Re: Why does El Al not serve AMM or IST, but TK and RJ serve TLV?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:55 pm

I personally have flow EL AL from IST-TLV in 1991, on a B757, I believe.
 
sw733
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Re: Why does El Al not serve AMM or IST, but TK and RJ serve TLV?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:04 pm

ramzi wrote:
VTCIE wrote:

P.S. Do you agree that EK would jump at a DXB-TLV flight if such an impossible thing were to happen?


They jump on everything, so probably. It would certainly be an interesting change to aviation dynamics in the region. Does anyone really expect that to happen in the next 50 years or so? Nope.


50 years is a long time. I wouldn't be surprised. I'm not saying there's going to be regular flights between Yemen and Israel, but UAE and Israel isn't out of my realm of thought by 2068.
 
ramzi
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Re: Why does El Al not serve AMM or IST, but TK and RJ serve TLV?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:15 pm

sw733 wrote:
ramzi wrote:
VTCIE wrote:

P.S. Do you agree that EK would jump at a DXB-TLV flight if such an impossible thing were to happen?


They jump on everything, so probably. It would certainly be an interesting change to aviation dynamics in the region. Does anyone really expect that to happen in the next 50 years or so? Nope.


50 years is a long time. I wouldn't be surprised. I'm not saying there's going to be regular flights between Yemen and Israel, but UAE and Israel isn't out of my realm of thought by 2068.


Sure, if anyone it would be the UAE and/or QR, however the bickering between them has complicated that entire situation, not that it is simple to begin with. There is the GCC, the Arab League, the bilaterals with other Arab countries, etc.

Interesting to imagine what competition would be like if all of EK, QR, and TK are in that market in 2068.
There will come a time when you believe everything is finished - that will be the beginning.
 
blink182
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Re: Why does El Al not serve AMM or IST, but TK and RJ serve TLV?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:38 pm

aldrigsomandre wrote:
The real reason why El Al doesn't serve IST and AYT is that Turkish authorities have issues with Israeli security measures on flights to TLV and they do not want Mossad agents on the ground. They tried to get Israel to accept private security on the ground, but they declined, so El Al stopped flights all together. Until Turkey and Israel agree on security measures, El Al won't be able to fly to Turkey, not just IST.

In fact, El Al is rather bitter about not being able to fly to Turkey. If they could, they would. This is a matter that El Al administration brings up frequently in interviews because they are constantly being bombarded by questions of TK surpassing 1 million passenger mark out of TLV.


This might be true, but TK makes a killing on IST/SAW(?)-TLV and is likely be the largest foreign carrier at TLV by capacity, with a fare structure and a number of options that make IST a favorable connection for North America-Israel and vv. Politics aside, LY would be a niche player at best in IST. Whether they could make Izmir and Ankara work are different stories.
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
Yoav
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Re: Why does El Al not serve AMM or IST, but TK and RJ serve TLV?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:02 pm

EBiafore99 wrote:
I believe is has to do with the passenger base. My guess is the passenger base for the TLV-AMM flight consists of Arab Israelis and Palestinians who are making connections through Amman. I highly doubt those passengers would use El Al.

Not really correct, most of the passengers are connecting passengers (mostly to the far east and the US). The rest are probably diplomats, Israeli-arab students that study in Jordan and a minority is turism.

aldrigsomandre wrote:
In fact, El Al is rather bitter about not being able to fly to Turkey. If they could, they would. This is a matter that El Al administration brings up frequently in interviews because they are constantly being bombarded by questions of TK surpassing 1 million passenger mark out of TLV.

Can you find a source? MOST of the passengers to Istanbul are connecting passengers.
 
aldrigsomandre
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Re: Why does El Al not serve AMM or IST, but TK and RJ serve TLV?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:06 pm

Yoav wrote:

aldrigsomandre wrote:
In fact, El Al is rather bitter about not being able to fly to Turkey. If they could, they would. This is a matter that El Al administration brings up frequently in interviews because they are constantly being bombarded by questions of TK surpassing 1 million passenger mark out of TLV.

Can you find a source? MOST of the passengers to Istanbul are connecting passengers.


https://www.timesofisrael.com/turkeys-b ... own-el-al/

It's not just IST, there's a lot of tourism potential as well, El Al wants to tap into that.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Why does El Al not serve AMM or IST, but TK and RJ serve TLV?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:43 pm

El Al is free to serve Turkey.
They simply cannot have armed staff members.
This is the same policy many other nations (Sweden is another example in El Al case) maintain at their airports.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
aldrigsomandre
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Re: Why does El Al not serve AMM or IST, but TK and RJ serve TLV?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:47 pm

LAXintl wrote:
El Al is free to serve Turkey.
They simply cannot have armed staff members.
This is the same policy many other nations (Sweden is another example in El Al case) maintain at their airports.


Exactly, it's what I tried to say as well.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Why does El Al not serve AMM or IST, but TK and RJ serve TLV?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:59 pm

Even without the security issues, for LY, the problem is that most of the point of sale is Israeli. Turkish knows this and caters to connections, flying anything from an A320 to a B77W on IST-TLV...and can fill close to 349 seats on that short B77W flight. The new airport will only exacerbate that. LY would need to rely on O&D and TK has that down.

For AMM, the issue is O&D. Anyone flying TLV-AMM is almost certainly flying for a connecting flight on RJ.
 
JoKeR
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Re: Why does El Al not serve AMM or IST, but TK and RJ serve TLV?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:16 pm

Actually the first Gulf airline I see potentially serving TLV one day is Oman Air. The country has luke-warm relations with Israel, heck the Israeli PM visited Muscat not long ago! It’s a soft gem of Gulf airlines, a truly quality and good little airline (by Middle East standards), and could surprise us all one day. If that does happen, expect EK and QR metal to flood that market soon after to give TK a run for its money.
 
Yoav
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Re: Why does El Al not serve AMM or IST, but TK and RJ serve TLV?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:22 pm

aldrigsomandre wrote:
Yoav wrote:

aldrigsomandre wrote:
In fact, El Al is rather bitter about not being able to fly to Turkey. If they could, they would. This is a matter that El Al administration brings up frequently in interviews because they are constantly being bombarded by questions of TK surpassing 1 million passenger mark out of TLV.

Can you find a source? MOST of the passengers to Istanbul are connecting passengers.


https://www.timesofisrael.com/turkeys-b ... own-el-al/

It's not just IST, there's a lot of tourism potential as well, El Al wants to tap into that.

Well, Elal could theoretically tap into the o&d market, but most of those passengers are tourists that buys a deal, and charter flights to (but not only) Antalya.
The political situation between the two countries will not allow armed Israeli security personals on the ground (which is required by law for Israeli airline), and El-Al won't have a big advantage over the low-cost and charter tourists carrier, even not through their charter brand Sun-Dor. Honestly, now-days most (if not all) of those tourists are Arab-Israelis, some of them might actively choose not to fly El-Al. Moreover, this market is targeted into the Arab-Israeli, and into the sub-sector of the not very wealthy ones in there, so this is another reason that El-Al is not very relevant as they are not known for their cheap price.

That said, I remember my first 777 flight. It was El-Al, 4X-ECC, on a charter flight from Tel-Aviv to Antalya, in the times that the political relations were excellent and hundred of thousands of Israelis flew to a vacation in Antalya. I was 13, and I remember that the flight was so short that the aircraft barely reached its cruising altitude before it started the descent, making me a bit terrified. Hopefully we will return to these days some day in the future... :)
 
COSPN
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Re: Why does El Al not serve AMM or IST, but TK and RJ serve TLV?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:09 am

Australia won’t allow the armed agents in Australia so ELAL can’t fly there either .. security is the most important thing for ELAL
 
LH658
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Re: Why does El Al not serve AMM or IST, but TK and RJ serve TLV?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:04 am

The things is TK and RJ, brings pax to Israel, from Europe, North America, and Canada. EL, can't really bring pax to those countries profitability. A pax coming from London going to IST, via TLV would already pass IST in the air, wouldn't make any sense.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Why does El Al not serve AMM or IST, but TK and RJ serve TLV?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:01 am

COSPN wrote:
Australia won’t allow the armed agents in Australia so ELAL can’t fly there either .. security is the most important thing for ELAL


LY doesn't have a plane that could reach Australia with the added diversions it has to make. Also, keep in mind it can't overfly Malaysia or Indonesia to get there. An intermediate stop would be needed in India or in Sri Lanka with fifth freedom routes, even without considering security.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Why does El Al not serve AMM or IST, but TK and RJ serve TLV?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:41 am

Egyptair and Royal Jordanian can provide connections to Israeli passengers (Egyptair to Africa and RJ to Asia). In the case of RJ, I suppose as most Israeli passengers have two passports perhaps they can fly to places like Dubai as long as they use their other passport for the second leg. EL Al is not a popular airline for connections because of the added security, unusual restrictions (no flights on Saturday) and extra long flight times due to having to fly around certain countries. I don't think they even try to offer competitive fares on connecting flights. For Israelis going to places like Bangkok or India, it's probably faster and cheaper via Amman because the route is far more direct.

El Al probably wouldn't be all that comfortable landing in Arab countries and it would be a bit of a security risk - they would look like a juicy target for terrorists and need massive extra security and all of this would make these countries very uncomfortable (having El Al security agents walking around their airports with walkie talkies speaking in Hebrew). El Al is practically a part of the state of Israel and it serves a purpose (providing safe, secure transport and connecting the country to the world), but it is not an efficient or competitive airline. The local airlines can do it quietly without most people even noticing and obviously there is no problem when they land in Tel Aviv.
 
Galwayman
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Re: Why does El Al not serve AMM or IST, but TK and RJ serve TLV?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:23 am

ramzi wrote:
VTCIE wrote:

P.S. Do you agree that EK would jump at a DXB-TLV flight if such an impossible thing were to happen?


They jump on everything, so probably. It would certainly be an interesting change to aviation dynamics in the region. Does anyone really expect that to happen in the next 50 years or so? Nope.


Yes I can see it happening within months of a fair and just peace settlement , EK would be in there with multiple daily flights , nobody in UAE really cares about the politics, they’ve got much bigger fish to fry these days ... ironically the first casualty of a successful peace process would probably be El Al who would be crushed by the quality and price competition ... if EK fly to Iran , they’ll easily fly to Israel-Palestine .... money is money at the end of the day
 
rutankrd
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Re: Why does El Al not serve AMM or IST, but TK and RJ serve TLV

Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:23 am

EGYPTAIR ( Air Sinai) less than daily EMB 170 doesn’t really carry too many connections ! Their flights are marketed via an agent called Mazda Tours in Tel Aviv they don’t show up in Egpytairs booking engines and the usual aircraft deployed is this

During a few annual holidays EgyptAir deploys more and larger aircraft on an adhoc basis.

The major player for African transfer passengers is Ethiopian.

Jordan has full political and diplomatic relations with Israel and Royal Jordanian ( Alia as was) do carry number of Israelis of all denominations- Many Arab Israelis are Christians in faith - to from and beyond Amman .

Fact is the route is so short even without the Security considerations; El Al couldn’t compete with their fleet. No this Is a route more suits to Arkia and/or Israir ATRs.

Of the Middle Eastern destinations Dubai and dare I say Jeddah are not beyond belief in the next few years . Both the UAE and Saudi authorities are covert allies against the perceived regional threat from Tehran and it’s allies in Beirut Baghdad and Damascus.

Indeed we already see softening of rhetoric and actions with authorised over fights both civil and military from Israeli airspace directly into Saudi controlled airspace on a near daily basis.

Things are a changing .

One could well see Lebanon being almost sidelined in the not too distant future of the region directly because of the dominance of Hezbollah and similar Tehran backed militias.

The Christian forces of Lebanon need to be aware and I am sure they are.

Sorry for the political rant however it’s almost ; No it is unavoidable in an Israeli thread such as this.
 
Galwayman
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Re: Why does El Al not serve AMM or IST, but TK and RJ serve TLV?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:07 am

Wouldn’t be surprised to see Oman Air or Qatar Airways at TLV with 24 months .... if the rhetoric was toned down a bit on both sides . TK is milking TLV as a cash cow with no real competition at the minute
 
sixfootscream
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Re: Why does El Al not serve AMM or IST, but TK and RJ serve TLV?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:18 pm

RJ and TK carry pax with final destination TLV out of DXB. Bags tagged through all the way.

EK would definitely make a success out DXB-TLV, but this won't happen soon.

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