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eastafspot
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Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:38 am

This is the biggest contract in Africa for this new nigerian start up.
For now, 50 aircraft are options.
What would be their longest flight?

https://newsaero.info/nigeria-green-afr ... 737-max-8/
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CARST
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:01 am

Let's see if they will be able to take them at all...
 
upperdeckfan
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:08 am

Reminds me of the Avianca A320 fiasco...
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FatCat
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:13 am

"Start Up" and "Airline Business" are not things that melt in an easy way...
Hope I'm wrong, but I'll trust them when they will took the last plane and put it in service...
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Staralexi
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:22 am

Nigeria needs a good well managed airline flying efficient aircraft. This new airline shows every prospect of being that. If they really are good they will find a fabulous market in Nigeria. Good luck to them.
 
Blerg
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:32 am

I like their livery, looks quite nice.

Their management teams seems promising though I don't know what they would do with all those aircraft, unless they plan on building a major hub in Lagos. That said, with the MAX they could cover pretty much all of Africa and most of Europe.
 
jumpjets
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:37 am

Lets hope that it is a success as Nigeria doenst have a great history of local airlines succeeding.

What would interest me to know is, when Boeing - or any other aircraft manufacturer - takes such a substantial order from an as yet untried and untested airline, what due diligence they do before accepting the order and to what extent the manufacturerers own internal production and financial projections discount the likelihood of some or all of the order never coming to fruition
 
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:58 am

I don't see this venture ending very well.
a) The Nigerian aviation industry is always a mess. I would argue the instability is largely because of the regulatory framework and tax structure imposed by the government not solely because Nigerian carriers are mismanaged. Unless the government reforms its policies I don't see how Green Africa is going to meet a different fate.

b) I don't see how this carrier is going to support the high ownership and insurance costs of brand new fleet of aircraft -especially the hull insurance. Due to the risk profile, hull insurance for African carriers (outside of RSA) is usually something like quadruple the price for the same insurance in the US or Europe. This is one of the reasons minor African carriers usually purchase used depreciated aircraft - lower value=lower insurance rates.

C) Currency issues - most of Green Africa's income is going to be in Naira but most of it's expenses are going to be in dollars. The naira is a consistently unstable currency so I don't see how they are going to overcome those losses.

I wish them nothing but the best however...
 
arcticcruiser
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:09 pm

jumpjets wrote:
Lets hope that it is a success as Nigeria doenst have a great history of local airlines succeeding.

What would interest me to know is, when Boeing - or any other aircraft manufacturer - takes such a substantial order from an as yet untried and untested airline, what due diligence they do before accepting the order and to what extent the manufacturerers own internal production and financial projections discount the likelihood of some or all of the order never coming to fruition


Boeing and Airbus seem to accept and post orders from any i...t walking in. Primera air is a prime example...
Last edited by arcticcruiser on Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:09 pm

upperdeckfan wrote:
Reminds me of the Avianca A320 fiasco...


Forget Avianca, a repeat of Arik Air is far more likely.
 
musman9853
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:23 pm

arcticcruiser wrote:
jumpjets wrote:
Lets hope that it is a success as Nigeria doenst have a great history of local airlines succeeding.

What would interest me to know is, when Boeing - or any other aircraft manufacturer - takes such a substantial order from an as yet untried and untested airline, what due diligence they do before accepting the order and to what extent the manufacturerers own internal production and financial projections discount the likelihood of some or all of the order never coming to fruition


Boeing and Airbus seem to accept and post orders from any i...t walking in. Primera air is a prime example...


Airbus still has the 20 amadeo a380 orders on the books. Seems to me that Boeing and Airbus are both willing to stick your name in line with not much care
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797
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:40 pm

I'm super impressed they recruited three industry heavyweights: Tom Horton, former Chairman/CEO of American Airlines; William Shaw, Founder and former CEO of VivaColombia; and Virasb Vahidi, former CCO of American Airlines.

I respect Tom and Virasb dearly. Excellent people. I'm sure the project is sound for them to go in like that.

More info here: https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/nigeria ... 737-max-8/
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:43 pm

eastafspot wrote:


I mean, with the MAX, so much is 'in-range'. The U.K., Germany, South Africa, and the U.A.E. are all in range.

If the capacity is there, then high frequencies under the more manageable costs of a 737 (especially if the advantage of lower costs are empowered) could provide Nigeria with a decent medium term solution to some of the current, and emerging problems as it grows further into greater development of the economy.
 
eicvd
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:57 pm

CARST wrote:
Let's see if they will be able to take them at all...

Them all? Will they even take 1?!
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BartSimpson
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:59 pm

eastafspot wrote:
...
What would be their longest flight?


The delivery flight and the flight to return the aircraft to the owner / creditor.

Sorry for being sarcastic.
 
A3801000
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:00 pm

Homepage:
http://www.flygaa.com/

Investor:
https://kuramocapital.com/

Babawande Afolabi, the founder and CEO, studied at Standford:
2010 - 2012 Analyst for Morgan Stanley
2013 - 2013 Summer Associate for American Airlines
2013 - 2018 Founder and CEO of Green & White, Karachi, PK, http://green-white.pk/

Chief pilot:
Folu Oladipo
Currently a B737 Captain at ASKY
He was Technical Pilot at Arik Airlines
https://twitter.com/foluoladipo
https://www.facebook.com/folu.oladipo

Director of flight:
Anselem Okojie
Former chief pilot for Aerocontractors, Nigeria

Good luck.
Last edited by A3801000 on Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:06 pm

797 wrote:
I'm super impressed they recruited three industry heavyweights: Tom Horton, former Chairman/CEO of American Airlines; William Shaw, Founder and former CEO of VivaColombia; and Virasb Vahidi, former CCO of American Airlines.

I respect Tom and Virasb dearly. Excellent people. I'm sure the project is sound for them to go in like that.

More info here: https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/nigeria ... 737-max-8/


I disagree. Tom, Bill, and Virasb are not running the airline - they are just on an advisory board despite what the press releases may imply.

Flying in Africa is almost a different world - many experienced airline managers have failed there. See Stelios at Fastjet, Branson at Virgin Nigeria, Skywest at Ghana International, Germania at Gambia Bird, RAM at Air Senegal International, Brussels at Korongo.

Lots of sharp people have failed there.
 
anshabhi
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:06 pm

Not questioning the airline's potential, but I think its better to get started first before placing any major order. Even IndiGo took 6 A320 on lease, before ordering its first 100 aircraft.

Or maybe a website and wiki article first :)
 
KLDC10
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:12 pm

Horton and Vahidi are both incredibly capable individuals. They steered American out of bankruptcy and it would have been viable as a standalone carrier. They also worked to transform the product, introducing an excellent new long-haul Business Class, a competitive First Class cabin about the 777-300ERs and they were on their way to fitting out the new narrowbody fleet with personal IFE. Unfortunately, a lot of their work has been undone by Parker and Co., but it's interesting to imagine what American might have looked like today if they had remained in charge.
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797
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:27 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
Horton and Vahidi are both incredibly capable individuals. They steered American out of bankruptcy and it would have been viable as a standalone carrier. They also worked to transform the product, introducing an excellent new long-haul Business Class, a competitive First Class cabin about the 777-300ERs and they were on their way to fitting out the new narrowbody fleet with personal IFE. Unfortunately, a lot of their work has been undone by Parker and Co., but it's interesting to imagine what American might have looked like today if they had remained in charge.


If they had stayed in command of American Airlines, I bet the product we see today would be close to what Delta has to offer. Kirby low-costisized American before ditching it for United. And Doug Parker has no idea what he really wants.

As far as African aviation is concerned, I too agree that it's a whole different animal. Nigeria is filled with corrupt ventures, but I doubt that Horton and company would get involved if they saw something shady in there.

Also, for Boeing to take in a "firm order," financial guarantees must have been given by the Nigerian start-up... therefore, I do think it's viable.
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:49 pm

upperdeckfan wrote:
Reminds me of the Avianca A320 fiasco...


Excuse my ignorance, but what happened with the Avianca A320s?

Back to the topic, I'm willing to bet they don't succeed, and that's even if they take delivery of any of these MAXs in the first place
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Newbiepilot
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:55 pm

Well that is a big order for a startup, although most airlines in Nigeria seem to be start ups or less than 20 years old.

This will make them the third airline in Nigeria to commit to the MAX
 
sw733
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:00 pm

I'm an African. I love Africa. I want Africa to succeed. But...

Image
 
juliuswong
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:53 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Well that is a big order for a startup, although most airlines in Nigeria seem to be start ups or less than 20 years old.

This will make them the third airline in Nigeria to commit to the MAX

Every Nigerian start up airline has same news storyline...."It is with the hope that the new airline will fly high and avoid problem which plagued Airline A, B, C and......".......Whatever happens to Med-View Airline, Arik Air, Air Nigeria?? Good luck to them! They need a lot of it!

Boeing might want to consider accept USD in cash term, not cheque.
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:27 pm

sw733 wrote:
I'm an African. I love Africa. I want Africa to succeed. But...

Image


Quite.

Is it April 1st already? This "airline" won't see the light of day.
 
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:55 pm

Congratulations to Green Africa Airways and Boeing. History though shows this "commitment" as being anything but rock solid. I wish the carrier the best and hope they are successful. Maybe they can pull an Emirates. One of the first books I have on aviation has them in it. Basically a small outfit, with beater jets and a desert landing strip.
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avier
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:30 pm

anshabhi wrote:
Not questioning the airline's potential, but I think its better to get started first before placing any major order. Even IndiGo took 6 A320 on lease, before ordering its first 100 aircraft.

Or maybe a website and wiki article first :)


Really? I thought they had directly started inducting from their 100 a/c order. And SLB doesn't count.
 
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:35 pm

Seems way too suspect to me. In Africa, the only order I could see as credible being for 100 narrow-bodies is Ethiopian. They would be better off leasing late-model Boeing 737-800s coming off lease to start.

As for the Avianca A320neo issues...I suspect it has to do with the A319neo part of the order and that Airbus really wants Avianca to switch that to the BCS3.
 
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:37 pm

They had to put a sizable non-refundable deposit down to secure the order so worse off, Boeing gets the deposit and is likely already offering the potential slots to other carriers just in case.
Don't sweat the little things.
 
upperdeckfan
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:52 pm

OA940 wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
Reminds me of the Avianca A320 fiasco...


Excuse my ignorance, but what happened with the Avianca A320s?


Ordered 100 A320NEO's, after a while announced they might take no more than 50. Time will tell how this end up.
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:14 pm

797 wrote:
I'm super impressed they recruited three industry heavyweights: Tom Horton, former Chairman/CEO of American Airlines; William Shaw, Founder and former CEO of VivaColombia; and Virasb Vahidi, former CCO of American Airlines.

I respect Tom and Virasb dearly. Excellent people. I'm sure the project is sound for them to go in like that.

More info here: https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/nigeria ... 737-max-8/


Second this. I was skeptical, but these are capable well respected people.
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:27 pm

sw733 wrote:
I'm an African. I love Africa. I want Africa to succeed. But...

Image


..and you KNOW Boeing is sitting up there right now doin the same thing! LOL

"100 new MAXs? Sure .. happy to take your non-refundable deposit on that . .. . ."
 
Cunard
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:05 pm

VSMUT wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
Reminds me of the Avianca A320 fiasco...


Forget Avianca, a repeat of Arik Air is far more likely.


No similarity whatsoever as Arik Air wasn't a startup company like this one and it had never placed an order for 100 brand new aircraft from a manufacturer such as Boeing.

Sure Arik Air did have large orders planned including the A380 but it was fairly obvious that they weren't able to take them but it wasn't an order for 100 aircraft.

Regardless of what happens I hope that the airline does eventually get off the ground because Nigeria needs a stable airline after so many airline failures over the years.

If it doesn't get anywhere at least Boeing will more than likely keep the deposits on those aircraft and sell the slots to other airlines so there probably not too worried.

I have to admit that I personally think the livery looks good :-)
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berari
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:07 pm

I'm all for this, but here are my questions:
- How does an airline that has not started operations order 100 aircraft?
- The above especially in a hostile environment such as aviation in Africa?
- How does Boeing accept such commitments when the airline has not even started
 
A3801000
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:17 pm

avier wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
Not questioning the airline's potential, but I think its better to get started first before placing any major order. Even IndiGo took 6 A320 on lease, before ordering its first 100 aircraft.

Or maybe a website and wiki article first :)


Really? I thought they had directly started inducting from their 100 a/c order. And SLB doesn't count.



Their facebook page started in 2015.
 
anshabhi
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:23 pm

avier wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
Not questioning the airline's potential, but I think its better to get started first before placing any major order. Even IndiGo took 6 A320 on lease, before ordering its first 100 aircraft.

Or maybe a website and wiki article first :)


Really? I thought they had directly started inducting from their 100 a/c order. And SLB doesn't count.


My fault. They started directly with order for 100 A320s
This thread is pretty interesting !! : viewtopic.php?t=335629

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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:36 pm

Nigeria's aviation time will come given its enormous population and fast-growing population. I feel it is sometime off given the various issues and also relatively slow economic growth. But it will come. I hope Green Africa gains hold; I'll be keeping an eye out.
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eastafspot
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:40 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
I don't see this venture ending very well.
a) The Nigerian aviation industry is always a mess. I would argue the instability is largely because of the regulatory framework and tax structure imposed by the government not solely because Nigerian carriers are mismanaged. Unless the government reforms its policies I don't see how Green Africa is going to meet a different fate.

What prevents government from reforming its policies?
We have to give Green Africa credit to try at least.
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smartplane
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:03 pm

eastafspot wrote:
This is the biggest contract in Africa for this new nigerian start up.
For now, 50 aircraft are options.
What would be their longest flight?

https://newsaero.info/nigeria-green-afr ... 737-max-8/

Lets see how Boeing describe and reports the 'order'.

At best, 50 conditional orders, unless funding and guarantees are already in place, in which case reporting by those involved is 'material', and announcement should be imminent.

Definitely room in the African continent for another 1-2 Ethiopians.
 
LupineChemist
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:00 pm

The LCC model will fail in Africa until someone gets it right so it's worth a proverbial shot and there are far worse ways to burn money in the aviation.

I think it's unlikely to work but I wish them the best and think Nigeria has enough population to maybe make it work,
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:49 pm

LupineChemist wrote:
The LCC model will fail in Africa until someone gets it right so it's worth a proverbial shot and there are far worse ways to burn money in the aviation.

I think it's unlikely to work but I wish them the best and think Nigeria has enough population to maybe make it work,


The model with continue to fail in Africa, outside of South Africa, until those countries get decent sized middle-classes.
 
A388
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:50 pm

7
upperdeckfan wrote:
Reminds me of the Avianca A320 fiasco...


What fiasco did Avianca have?

A388
 
Natflyer
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:49 pm

eastafspot wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
I don't see this venture ending very well.
a) The Nigerian aviation industry is always a mess. I would argue the instability is largely because of the regulatory framework and tax structure imposed by the government not solely because Nigerian carriers are mismanaged. Unless the government reforms its policies I don't see how Green Africa is going to meet a different fate.

What prevents government from reforming its policies?
We have to give Green Africa credit to try at least.


Perhaps they should begin with fixing the perpetual jet fuel shortage...
 
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:40 pm

berari wrote:
I'm all for this, but here are my questions:
- How does an airline that has not started operations order 100 aircraft?
- The above especially in a hostile environment such as aviation in Africa?
- How does Boeing accept such commitments when the airline has not even started


I think this is pretty low risk for Boeing. They probably got an up-front payment which they get to keep if the airline never gets off the ground. And the 737-MAX8 will have plenty of takers.

'902
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SEPilot
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:16 am

I have come to the conclusion that there is one overriding reason why poor countries remain poor, and it is government corruption. And one of the side effects of a dishonest government is that it makes it much easier for people in the general population to justify being dishonest themselves. I spent the better part of a year back in the 80s traveling around the eastern US with an African man living mostly with Africans. And the Nigerians had a bad reputation among them. The anecdotal stories about Nigerian prince screams on the internet add to this. So I have to join the generally expressed skepticism about this venture. Even if the directors of the company are honest, finding honest and competent help is not going to be easy. Running an airline requires diligent, honest people all up and down the line. And in a country without any trace of that in its culture it is going to be extremely difficult.
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usflyer msp
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:15 am

SEPilot wrote:
I have come to the conclusion that there is one overriding reason why poor countries remain poor, and it is government corruption. And one of the side effects of a dishonest government is that it makes it much easier for people in the general population to justify being dishonest themselves. I spent the better part of a year back in the 80s traveling around the eastern US with an African man living mostly with Africans. And the Nigerians had a bad reputation among them. The anecdotal stories about Nigerian prince screams on the internet add to this. So I have to join the generally expressed skepticism about this venture. Even if the directors of the company are honest, finding honest and competent help is not going to be easy. Running an airline requires diligent, honest people all up and down the line. And in a country without any trace of that in its culture it is going to be extremely difficult.


Whoa - take a step back!
I am very skeptical of this venture but you just insulted an entire country and called them all thieves and liars.
The vast majority of Nigerians are good, honest people. This company will not fail because they can't find trustworthy employees (that is a bit of ludicrous suggestion) -- it will probably fail because their business plan is overly grandiose and not rooted in economic reality.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:52 am

Nigeria is the seventh most populous country in the world. It has a poor road network, both within the country and to neighboring countries. It has essentially no rail.

That is an absolutely enormous untapped market for air travel. 100 737 MAX is a drop in the bucket.

To date, airlines that have tried to tap the market have either been run by connected individuals with little airline experience, or have drowned in a soup of regulatory dysfunction. Between the airline experience in this group and the good local connections, I think there is reason to hope this venture might end up differently. And the first airline to truly succeed in Nigeria will be a force to be reckoned with throughout Africa and a major improvement in the lives of everyday Nigerians, or at least the wealthiest quarter or so of them.

I keep hoping that something will take off there because I think it would be good news for the world. This venture gives me more hope than any previous one. My fingers are crossed.
 
Cunard
Posts: 2510
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:03 am

A388 wrote:
7
upperdeckfan wrote:
Reminds me of the Avianca A320 fiasco...


What fiasco did Avianca have?

A388


It's already being answered further up the thread, read back or read from the very beginning of this thread and your see your answer ;-)
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
ETinCaribe
Posts: 473
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:57 pm

Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:19 am

Talk about making a splash, ok Green Africa, you got my attention. I hope it works out, but why put extra pressure on yourself as now the expectations are sky high and the challenges are not any easier. Now you gotta deliver Big Shots!!
 
ETinCaribe
Posts: 473
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:57 pm

Re: Green Africa Airways to order 100 B737 MAX8

Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:20 am

Talk about making a splash, ok Green Africa, you got my attention. I hope it works out, but why put extra pressure on yourself as now the expectations are sky high and the challenges are not any easier. Now you gotta deliver Big Shots!!

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