Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
SpaceshipDC10
Topic Author
Posts: 7054
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

LYS-YUL: a growing route

Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:12 am

A few years ago, TS was the only operator on the route during summers, offering up to four frequencies. Then Air Canada entered the market a couple years ago with yearround service.

Recently, AC announced their plans to increase their frequencies up to daily during high season starting around 2020,. Now it's Air Transat's turn to add a fifth flight between the two cities starting next summer. Clearly demand is strong and I even wonder whether TS wouldn't try to keep it yearround sometimes in the future or at least propose Christmas time flights.


https://www.tourmag.com/Air-Transat-ajo ... 96636.html
 
upperdeckfan
Posts: 1084
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:59 am

Re: LYS-YUL: a growing route

Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:25 am

I assume TS main market are leisure travelers so I think year-round service is a long shot. Before we see year round they will go daily in summer.

Christmas season travelling is mainly VFR and even with the french heritage in Quebec I don't think these days there is enough VFR traffic to sustain LYS-YUL on Christmas season, or any other mid size french market such as TLS or BOD.

Nice to see european markets beyond the major capitals getting long haul service.
748,744,742,741,772,773,762,763,
764, 789, 732,733,735,737,738,739,
752, 722, 717,74M,DC10,DC9,M82,
M83, M87, M88,310,319,320,321,332,
333, 343, 346,359,388,L1011,CR2,
CR7, CR9,CRK, E175,E190,ATR42,
DSH8, CS1,CS3
 
drgmobile
Posts: 989
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:06 am

Re: LYS-YUL: a growing route

Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:41 pm

We took this flight on Air Canada two summers ago. Air Transat had a massive billboard in the middle of the city at a time -- with a whale on it, which is funny if you're familiar with Montreal as the whale watching region is a few hours away.
 
SpaceshipDC10
Topic Author
Posts: 7054
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

Re: LYS-YUL: a growing route

Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:04 pm

upperdeckfan wrote:
I assume TS main market are leisure travelers so I think year-round service is a long shot. Before we see year round they will go daily in summer.

Christmas season travelling is mainly VFR and even with the french heritage in Quebec I don't think these days there is enough VFR traffic to sustain LYS-YUL on Christmas season, or any other mid size french market such as TLS or BOD.

Nice to see european markets beyond the major capitals getting long haul service.


They might consider it with their upcoming A321LR. I don't know what are the loads for AC outside of spring-summer, but they keep it at 4x weekly with an A333.
 
jimbo737
Posts: 541
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:18 am

Re: LYS-YUL: a growing route

Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:46 pm

AC was always choked that for decades, TS was, by far, the largest carrier between Canada and France.

They decided to put an end to it, using the cheap fuel bonanza to do so.
 
ExMilitaryEng
Posts: 642
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 7:12 pm

Re: LYS-YUL: a growing route

Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:20 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
AC was always choked that for decades, TS was, by far, the largest carrier between Canada and France.
They decided to put an end to it, using the cheap fuel bonanza to do so.

The advent of AC Rouge was the best tool to achieve this increased success (beside LYS, which is now AC). Rouge is eating into Transat's lunch considerably. The arrival of Transat's A321LR should stabilize the situation.
 
AsiaTravel
Posts: 328
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:28 am

Re: LYS-YUL: a growing route

Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:25 pm

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
I assume TS main market are leisure travelers so I think year-round service is a long shot. Before we see year round they will go daily in summer.

Christmas season travelling is mainly VFR and even with the french heritage in Quebec I don't think these days there is enough VFR traffic to sustain LYS-YUL on Christmas season, or any other mid size french market such as TLS or BOD.

Nice to see european markets beyond the major capitals getting long haul service.


They might consider it with their upcoming A321LR. I don't know what are the loads for AC outside of spring-summer, but they keep it at 4x weekly with an A333.


In the interview he is talking about 80% load. I think the A333/788 is just right.
 
YYZLGA
Posts: 444
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:28 am

Re: LYS-YUL: a growing route

Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:23 pm

upperdeckfan wrote:
I assume TS main market are leisure travelers so I think year-round service is a long shot. Before we see year round they will go daily in summer.

Christmas season travelling is mainly VFR and even with the french heritage in Quebec I don't think these days there is enough VFR traffic to sustain LYS-YUL on Christmas season, or any other mid size french market such as TLS or BOD.


You're right, though there's a large and very fast-growing French community (from France) in Montreal. VFR travel may be up quite a bit.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6488
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: LYS-YUL: a growing route

Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:02 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
AC was always choked that for decades, TS was, by far, the largest carrier between Canada and France.
They decided to put an end to it, using the cheap fuel bonanza to do so.


Keep banging that drum. Air Canada's expansion into France began during higher fuel prices and continues regardless of fuel prices. And I sincerely doubt that Air Canada's network planners were ever "choked".

But, in reality, as noted, until the advent of Rouge, Air Canada did not have the properly configured aircraft for the France market. With two flights a day to CDG from YUL, and one or two from YYZ with the occasional flight from the west, the premium heavy aircraft were just not right for the rest of France. In fact, Air Canada's foray into the 10 abreast 777 was borne from the YUL-CDG market.

With the 280 seat Rouge 767 and now the less premium heavy A330s of mainline, Air Canada is able to make lower yield and leisure routes profitable. Not just France, but all over Europe, Rouge has opened up markets which were unable with the 217 seat mainline 767 (for example). Much to Air Transat's chagrin. But Transat is a tough scrappy airline, they have weathered worse than this.

In fact, look at the rest of the world. Economy is going denser and premium cabins are shrinking. When premium airlines like Cathay Pacific are going 10 abreast on Triples and Singapore Airlines developed a denser subsidiary, it shows the direction the world is headed. I can think of only one airline going in the opposite direction from the rest of the world and that is westjet. With very expensive 787s and new premium cabins running on routes too short for the design of the airframe ... all while the world (and Alberta) is entering an economic slowdown ... it will be interesting to watch.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
runway23
Posts: 2337
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:12 am

Re: LYS-YUL: a growing route

Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:19 pm

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
jimbo737 wrote:
AC was always choked that for decades, TS was, by far, the largest carrier between Canada and France.
They decided to put an end to it, using the cheap fuel bonanza to do so.

The advent of AC Rouge was the best tool to achieve this increased success (beside LYS, which is now AC). Rouge is eating into Transat's lunch considerably. The arrival of Transat's A321LR should stabilize the situation.


LYS was never operated by Rouge though.
 
SpaceshipDC10
Topic Author
Posts: 7054
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

Re: LYS-YUL: a growing route

Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:00 pm

runway23 wrote:
LYS was never operated by Rouge though.


Indeed. It started with a 763 and some here questionned whether the route would be Rouged but insteed it was kept mainline and upgraded to 788 and A333.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 2141
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: LYS-YUL: a growing route

Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:09 pm

Non CDG/ORY from North America is tricky, particularly from the USA, where it generally has not worked. There were briefly (and I mean briefly) operated flights to Strasbourg and I think Bordeaux on Air France in the early 1990's and American Airlines even had a very short lived JFK-LYS nonstop launched in 1987 and quickly dropped. Canada has the advantage of Quebec, a large French speaking population and numerous commercial ties. The only other non-CDG/ORY route between the US and France is NCE.
 
SpaceshipDC10
Topic Author
Posts: 7054
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

Re: LYS-YUL: a growing route

Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:15 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
American Airlines even had a very short lived JFK-LYS nonstop launched in 1987 and quickly dropped.


If I remember correctly, it was dropped at the same time as GVA and that was at in part due to their acquisition of bankrupt Eastern's Miami hub.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 2141
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: LYS-YUL: a growing route

Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:49 pm

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
American Airlines even had a very short lived JFK-LYS nonstop launched in 1987 and quickly dropped.


If I remember correctly, it was dropped at the same time as GVA and that was at in part due to their acquisition of bankrupt Eastern's Miami hub.


Possibly, yes. AA acquired EA's Miami hub / Latin America operations in 1990 but I do not necessarily think the two are connected. AA launched JFK to Europe in 1987 (ORY, LYS, FRA were the first routes, followed by BRU and ZRH) and the LYS and FRA routes were the first to be dropped within a year or two.
 
Thibault973
Posts: 334
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:11 am

Re: LYS-YUL: a growing route

Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:58 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Non CDG/ORY from North America is tricky, particularly from the USA, where it generally has not worked. There were briefly (and I mean briefly) operated flights to Strasbourg and I think Bordeaux on Air France in the early 1990's and American Airlines even had a very short lived JFK-LYS nonstop launched in 1987 and quickly dropped. Canada has the advantage of Quebec, a large French speaking population and numerous commercial ties. The only other non-CDG/ORY route between the US and France is NCE.


Delta also flew to LYS from JFK on the 757 for like a season about a decade ago and SE had their short lived MRS-JFK at one point. But even DL’s JFK-NCE has been seasonal for about a decade now. It used to be flown daily year round + ATL-NCE in the summer. Good old days.
 
flyyul
Posts: 4460
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

Re: LYS-YUL: a growing route

Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:21 am

jimbo737 wrote:
AC was always choked that for decades, TS was, by far, the largest carrier between Canada and France.

They decided to put an end to it, using the cheap fuel bonanza to do so.


I'll bet YUL-LYS makes more profit than all of Swoop in its entirety.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2875
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: LYS-YUL: a growing route

Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:06 am

flyyul wrote:
jimbo737 wrote:
AC was always choked that for decades, TS was, by far, the largest carrier between Canada and France.

They decided to put an end to it, using the cheap fuel bonanza to do so.


I'll bet YUL-LYS makes more profit than all of Swoop in its entirety.


That wouldn’t be hard considering in its present form it’s a loss leader for WS, with Swoop’s raison d’être is to put Flair out of business and make it harder for Jetlines to get off the ground. If it weren’t a loss leader, WS would actually be operating YOW/YUL-YEG nonstops on mainline this winter, but apparently YHM-YEG on Swoop is more profitable than the aforementioned two (ROFL).

Back on topic, I’d love to see AC keep putting the pressure on TS for Canada-France traffic by launching seasonal YOW-CDG and YQB-CDG on the 7M8. WS could do the same and beat AC to the punch, but they don’t exactly put up much of a fight in Ontario and Quebec outside of YYZ...and their rediscovered love of YHM.
 
SpaceshipDC10
Topic Author
Posts: 7054
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

Re: LYS-YUL: a growing route

Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:10 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
Back on topic, I’d love to see AC keep putting the pressure on TS for Canada-France traffic by launching seasonal YOW-CDG and YQB-CDG on the 7M8. WS could do the same and beat AC to the punch, but they don’t exactly put up much of a fight in Ontario and Quebec outside of YYZ...and their rediscovered love of YHM.


For the time being I wouldn't count on WS since they are starting YYC-CDG seasonal this summer.

As for flights from YOW or YQB, I guess the latter would have more chance of ever starting.

By the way, LYS has officially passed the 11 millionth passsengers on December 31st. This comes after 2017's 10,3; 2016's 9,5 and 2015's 8,7.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos