tphuang
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:21 pm

enilria wrote:
unmlobo wrote:
As maybe many expected, these increases have been pulled out of the schedule before ever being flown.

Instead one of the SFO frequencies will shift to SEA but the schedule will remain at 13 flights a day out of DAL as of Aug 27:

3x LAX
3x SEA
2x PDX
2x SFO
2x SJC
1x SAN
(All E75 except for one PDX gets mainline for a few days around Labor Day)
enilria wrote:
This is not happening because of demand. It would be interesting to know why it *is* happening. I’m sure it’s a bargaining ploy.

A particular posted accuses me of always being wrong on [email protected], but it appears I was right on the money again. This was just a ploy to hold their gates amid questionable performance at the WN hive. Not surprising. They should have just sold the gates to DL and let them fight the battle with a lot more resources.

It still confused me why they are so protective of this "asset". It's always going to a huge drain of their resources with no clear upside. Outside of dl, who else even wants it?
 
AAtakeMeAway
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:34 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
unmlobo wrote:
As maybe many expected, these increases have been pulled out of the schedule before ever being flown


This is being done strategically due to ongoing litigation in Dallas that is threatening the likelihood of being able to use both gates, so rather than having to possibly cancel and reschedule guests later - and reduce staffing levels after ramping them up - the decision was made to be proactive in the face of this uncertainty and adjust the schedules now, just in case.


Are you able to share how DAL is performing for AS? Is it "worth" all this litigation?
 
ScottB
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:52 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
unmlobo wrote:
As maybe many expected, these increases have been pulled out of the schedule before ever being flown


This is being done strategically due to ongoing litigation in Dallas that is threatening the likelihood of being able to use both gates, so rather than having to possibly cancel and reschedule guests later - and reduce staffing levels after ramping them up - the decision was made to be proactive in the face of this uncertainty and adjust the schedules now, just in case.


Er, maybe, but I'd be stunned if AAG weren't willing to go to the mat to retain its use of both gates if the routes were performing well and the new flights were showing strong advance bookings.

alfa164 wrote:
It remains to be seen whether these flights will actually operate; I am betting the answer 's "no".


And someone was absolutely correct 177 days ago...
 
unmlobo
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:03 pm

ScottB wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
unmlobo wrote:
As maybe many expected, these increases have been pulled out of the schedule before ever being flown


This is being done strategically due to ongoing litigation in Dallas that is threatening the likelihood of being able to use both gates, so rather than having to possibly cancel and reschedule guests later - and reduce staffing levels after ramping them up - the decision was made to be proactive in the face of this uncertainty and adjust the schedules now, just in case.


Er, maybe, but I'd be stunned if AAG weren't willing to go to the mat to retain its use of both gates if the routes were performing well and the new flights were showing strong advance bookings.


Yeah, AAG may be being extra cautious, but considering there hasn't been movement on the Love Field case in court in recent times, advance bookings must not be strong. I would think AS is more likely to have to re-accommodate people from the MAX 9 being in the schedule on SEALAX and SEASAN beginning 8/27 rather than any movement in the Love Field court case happening before then.
Went to school in ABQ, former airline employee. Now living in Dallas
 
Sooner787
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:09 pm

n797mx wrote:
Didn't AS just cut DAL flights to -175 aircraft just a few months ago? Now they're expanding?


My sister flew SEA-DAL back on 6/13 and she was on a 738.

Not sure if AS is just adding main line jets for the summer season
 
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ASQXSMFJETTER
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:11 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Further establishing their commitment to the market, AS has added six daily roundtrip flights from DAL, bringing the total daily departures to 19:

PDX 3x daily (+1)
SAN 2x daily (+1)
SEA 4x daily (+2)
SFO 4x daily (+1)
SJC 3x daily (+1)

This added flying begins on August 27, 2019 and will require the full daily use of both gates they lease at DAL. So, where does this leave the City of Dallas and DL in their dispute?




**This is not happening, staying at 13*****
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:27 pm

ASQXSMFJETTER wrote:
**This is not happening, staying at 13*****


Yes, we know. Thanks.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
USAirKid
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:37 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
unmlobo wrote:
As maybe many expected, these increases have been pulled out of the schedule before ever being flown


This is being done strategically due to ongoing litigation in Dallas that is threatening the likelihood of being able to use both gates, so rather than having to possibly cancel and reschedule guests later - and reduce staffing levels after ramping them up - the decision was made to be proactive in the face of this uncertainty and adjust the schedules now, just in case.


I went looking at some of the timing... Here is a quote from a December 2018, Dallas Morning News Article:

U.S. District Court Judge Ed Kinkeade issued an order earlier this week moving the trial’s start date from February to at least Sept. 9. The order did not specify the reason for the delay.
 
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SANFan
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:44 pm

Having just seen this thread, I just looked a the schedules for Nov 6, and I see NO flights between DAL and SAN listed...

I'm sorry but I'm seeing a lot of weird stuff from AS these days. Anyone know when these DAL skeds were reworked 'cause we're only 2 months away from those expected increased frequencies? I'm pretty sure I was still seeing the extra flights recently (dbl-daily from SAN at least.)

bb
 
unmlobo
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:04 pm

SANFan wrote:
Having just seen this thread, I just looked a the schedules for Nov 6, and I see NO flights between DAL and SAN listed...

I'm sorry but I'm seeing a lot of weird stuff from AS these days. Anyone know when these DAL skeds were reworked 'cause we're only 2 months away from those expected increased frequencies? I'm pretty sure I was still seeing the extra flights recently (dbl-daily from SAN at least.)

bb

I have seen the schedule being reworked over the last few days. First AS added mainline around Labor Day for PDX-DAL and then the reversal of the additions came today. Good call on catching the DAL-SAN schedule - it looks like that and DAL-SJC are cut after Nov 4 (and frequencies given back to SFO, PDX, SEA but still staying at 13) unless they are still reworking the schedule.
Went to school in ABQ, former airline employee. Now living in Dallas
 
unmlobo
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:12 pm

It's a shame if there are destinations cut from DAL, I always consider AS when I am flying to the west coast. I haven't flown them since the switch to regional jets back in November, if the frequencies were there I would consider status matching from WN, especially if they were at least occasional mainline back in the rotation (even if only to PDX).
Went to school in ABQ, former airline employee. Now living in Dallas
 
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SANFan
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:23 pm

I have another comment or two.

I just completed a turn schedule for SAN for the 8/27 schedule. I just looked at the DAL-SAN schedules a couple of days ago and there were 2 daily EMJs. So yes, these cuts to the DAL skeds were just made and it is only 2 months before those additional flights were to begin flying so there must be lots of people booked already. Now we have a totally new schedule of flights -- SAN, for example, is going from at 10:40am and a 5:30pm departure to DAL to a single 2:45pm flight. Gonna be a lot of pissed off customers!

I also noticed that both of the (previously scheduled) flights between SAN and DAL were scheduled as self-turning with very long and unusual turns in SAN -- one was about 6 hours and the other, a RON, was over 16 hours! I couldn't understand it when I finished the turn schedule but now it makes sense.

I agree with those claiming that AS had no intension of operating those extra flights. Why else would they schedule them at SAN with such ridiculous skeds unless they planned to pull them at some point and there would not be other flights involved -- just pull both DAL r/ts and done.

The new 8/27 sked now appears to include a 2 1/2 hour layover in SAN but it will still be self-contained. I still wonder what will ultimately happen...

Why didn't AS pull these months ago rather than putting lots of their customers thru major schedule changes beginning just 2 months out? And what is going to happen as of the Nov 5 sked change? Who knows anymore what is going on at Network Planning in SEA...

bb
 
commpilot
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:47 pm

They are probably doing this because SWA went into California heavy handed with the California One ramp up. Also AS codeshares with AA so it is one way for AA and their frequent flyers to work around the Wright Amendment.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:29 pm

I really do not know why Alaska does not do DAL-ORD 3-4 times a day.

... Seems like there may be a lot of codeshare opportunities in Chicago from Love Field.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
sxf24
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:12 am

enilria wrote:
unmlobo wrote:
As maybe many expected, these increases have been pulled out of the schedule before ever being flown.

Instead one of the SFO frequencies will shift to SEA but the schedule will remain at 13 flights a day out of DAL as of Aug 27:

3x LAX
3x SEA
2x PDX
2x SFO
2x SJC
1x SAN
(All E75 except for one PDX gets mainline for a few days around Labor Day)
enilria wrote:
This is not happening because of demand. It would be interesting to know why it *is* happening. I’m sure it’s a bargaining ploy.

A particular posted accuses me of always being wrong on [email protected], but it appears I was right on the money again. This was just a ploy to hold their gates amid questionable performance at the WN hive. Not surprising. They should have just sold the gates to DL and let them fight the battle with a lot more resources.


AS doesn’t own the gates and can’t sell them.

Your hubris is incredible.
 
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RWA380
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:21 am

EA CO AS wrote:
unmlobo wrote:
As maybe many expected, these increases have been pulled out of the schedule before ever being flown


This is being done strategically due to ongoing litigation in Dallas that is threatening the likelihood of being able to use both gates, so rather than having to possibly cancel and reschedule guests later - and reduce staffing levels after ramping them up - the decision was made to be proactive in the face of this uncertainty and adjust the schedules now, just in case.


Thanks for the info, class move on AAG's part then. That is nice to know AS doesn't want people inconvenienced when they could easily take the reservations & hold or use that revenue, only to refund it later.
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cledaybuck
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:21 am

tphuang wrote:
enilria wrote:
unmlobo wrote:
As maybe many expected, these increases have been pulled out of the schedule before ever being flown.

Instead one of the SFO frequencies will shift to SEA but the schedule will remain at 13 flights a day out of DAL as of Aug 27:

3x LAX
3x SEA
2x PDX
2x SFO
2x SJC
1x SAN
(All E75 except for one PDX gets mainline for a few days around Labor Day)
enilria wrote:
This is not happening because of demand. It would be interesting to know why it *is* happening. I’m sure it’s a bargaining ploy.

A particular posted accuses me of always being wrong on [email protected], but it appears I was right on the money again. This was just a ploy to hold their gates amid questionable performance at the WN hive. Not surprising. They should have just sold the gates to DL and let them fight the battle with a lot more resources.

It still confused me why they are so protective of this "asset". It's always going to a huge drain of their resources with no clear upside. Outside of dl, who else even wants it?

I have no idea. I’m not even sure why DL wants it? Do they do well in DAL or is it just a stick in the eye to WN?
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
AirFiero
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:21 am

ScottB wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
unmlobo wrote:
As maybe many expected, these increases have been pulled out of the schedule before ever being flown


This is being done strategically due to ongoing litigation in Dallas that is threatening the likelihood of being able to use both gates, so rather than having to possibly cancel and reschedule guests later - and reduce staffing levels after ramping them up - the decision was made to be proactive in the face of this uncertainty and adjust the schedules now, just in case.


Er, maybe, but I'd be stunned if AAG weren't willing to go to the mat to retain its use of both gates if the routes were performing well and the new flights were showing strong advance bookings.

alfa164 wrote:
It remains to be seen whether these flights will actually operate; I am betting the answer 's "no".


And someone was absolutely correct 177 days ago...


We also didn’t have the Max situation 177 days ago. Is it possible the e-jets needed for the additional flights had to be redeployed to cover the ongoing Max saga?
 
grbauc
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:52 am

AirFiero wrote:
ScottB wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

This is being done strategically due to ongoing litigation in Dallas that is threatening the likelihood of being able to use both gates, so rather than having to possibly cancel and reschedule guests later - and reduce staffing levels after ramping them up - the decision was made to be proactive in the face of this uncertainty and adjust the schedules now, just in case.


Er, maybe, but I'd be stunned if AAG weren't willing to go to the mat to retain its use of both gates if the routes were performing well and the new flights were showing strong advance bookings.

alfa164 wrote:
It remains to be seen whether these flights will actually operate; I am betting the answer 's "no".


And someone was absolutely correct 177 days ago...


We also didn’t have the Max situation 177 days ago. Is it possible the e-jets needed for the additional flights had to be redeployed to cover the ongoing Max saga?



The long time poster that are patting themselves on the back haha see.. Is a little off putting. Figured better from them. We don't know all the going on's MAX or some negotiations with airport or a airline. Of course they really might of just been a ploy to make the case for them to keep there gates. I don't tend to believe this kind of thing. However I/we don't know can only guess.
 
AirFiero
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:20 am

grbauc wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
ScottB wrote:

Er, maybe, but I'd be stunned if AAG weren't willing to go to the mat to retain its use of both gates if the routes were performing well and the new flights were showing strong advance bookings.



And someone was absolutely correct 177 days ago...


We also didn’t have the Max situation 177 days ago. Is it possible the e-jets needed for the additional flights had to be redeployed to cover the ongoing Max saga?



The long time poster that are patting themselves on the back haha see.. Is a little off putting. Figured better from them. We don't know all the going on's MAX or some negotiations with airport or a airline. Of course they really might of just been a ploy to make the case for them to keep there gates. I don't tend to believe this kind of thing. However I/we don't know can only guess.


Assuming it is only gate squatting, it would be interesting to know the cost of holding the gates while losing money on flights versus actually using them to their maximum.
 
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SANFan
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:17 am

As I see 3 or 4 daily flights between DAL and LAX, SFO, PDX and SEA and 0 flights from SAN and SJC showing on Nov 6, I assume AS's 2 focus cities have suddenly lost all service to Love Field. Interesting workings by the new AS Network Planners -- from doubling of service on SAN-DAL, to eliminating the route entirely in a matter of days. I can hardly wait to see what they have planned next!

WN now runs 4 weekday r/t between DAL and SAN; looks like possibly the second SAN route this month that AS has handed over, uncontested, to WN...

bb
 
SocalApproach
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:22 am

As many expected back to reality for AS. The B6 west coast threat is dead so now its time to downsize and/or pull out of several markets they claimed to be so interested in at the time of the VX sale. But hey lets just make another excuse and give them the benefit of the doubt that AS is too busy with DL in SEA
 
ASFlyer
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:40 am

SocalApproach wrote:
As many expected back to reality for AS. The B6 west coast threat is dead so now its time to downsize and/or pull out of several markets they claimed to be so interested in at the time of the VX sale. But hey lets just make another excuse and give them the benefit of the doubt that AS is too busy with DL in SEA


Ummmm, AS never claimed to be interested in DAL-SJC/SAN at the time of the sale as VX never flew those routes. At 13 flights a day, they are still flying as many flights a day from DAL as VX did at the time of the sale.
 
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SANFan
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:14 am

ASFlyer wrote:
Ummmm, AS never claimed to be interested in DAL-SJC/SAN at the time of the sale as VX never flew those routes. At 13 flights a day, they are still flying as many flights a day from DAL as VX did at the time of the sale.

Ummmmm, then why did they start flying between DAL and their 2 focus cities? It's nice to learn that they weren't really interested in the 2 routes. What difference does it make what Virgin flew from Love Field -- they didn't fly to SEA or PDX either but they did fly to the east coast. And AUS.

That's fine. WN does seem interested in serving SAN and SJC -- to DAL and lots of other places. Perhaps AS's new Network Planners will just scrap the whole 'focus city' idea and get back to their comfort zone -- SEA to everywhere, along with DL. I hope it works out well for them...

bb
 
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vhtje
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:30 am

deltaffindfw wrote:
Thinking about the other thread where AS might be interested in "OneWorld Connect" membership. I know that due to the AS/VX merger, they can't codeshare with AA to SFO, LAX, SEA. But, if they were a "Connect" member, AA flyers could still fly AS from DAL and get miles/EQMs with AS flight numbers, correct?


It depends entirely on which oneworld airlines sponsor AS into the alliance as a connect member, assuming it were to happen. Earn reciprocality and other benefits are only on sponsor airlines, not on the whole alliance.

https://www.fijiairways.com/en-gb/one-world-connect/

It would not surprise me if AA wasn’t a sponsoring member airline for any mooted AS joining of the alliance as a connect member, in order to minimise regulatory issues with AS joining.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
airplaneboy
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:05 am

KlimaBXsst wrote:
I really do not know why Alaska does not do DAL-ORD 3-4 times a day.

... Seems like there may be a lot of codeshare opportunities in Chicago from Love Field.


I believe this has to do with their AA codeshare violating antitrust laws or something like that with regards to flying their own metal- and also codesharing on hub to hub routes. This was part of the conditions for the DOJ approval on the AS acquisition of VX.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice- ... -agreement
 
Rdh3e
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:21 am

sxf24 wrote:

AS doesn’t own the gates and can’t sell them.

Your hubris is incredible.

They can demand a hefty price to sub-let them. This is exactly what UA did with WN....

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... rom-united
 
AAtakeMeAway
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:31 am

Sorry to hijack the thread, but this got me interested in DL's ops at DAL. I was surprised to see that they are 100% mainline. I assume that is an indication that bookings are strong. At one time it was a mix of RJ/mainline - does anyone know for how long they've been 100% mainline? I'm pretty sure that at one point even DFW-ATL had some RJ flights (I don't believe that's the case anymore - I think all of the DL RJ ops at DFW are to the other hubs).
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:36 am

Will AS build new hub in DFW and operate in the new Terminal F exclusively?
 
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DL747400
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:24 pm

deltaffindfw wrote:
737max8 wrote:
So....

Alaska 19 flights from 2 gates
Southwest 195 flights from 18 gates

How in the world do you fit in Delta? People are going to be stuck on the ground and delayed...


It is already happening. One of my friends flew AS last week (or maybe earlier this week) from SFO. They were 40 minutes delayed leaving SFO, and when they landed, had to sit and wait an hour for a gate at DAL.


Interesting. I wonder why AS is holding out waiting for gates, but DL isn't? None of my recent flights into DAL have been held after landing waiting on a gate. YTD 6 flights ATL-DAL since the beginning of the year, about to become 7 next week. All of them on-time or early at the gate.

I suspect that AS has been told to have a higher utilize their gates or risk losing them, so the flying they are reluctantly adding flights on smaller jets which may very well not be profitable. Could be seen as gate squatting by some. Count me as one who does not see DAL being a profitable market for AS, even in the long term. I do not expect them to stick around more than another year or two.
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KlimaBXsst
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:28 pm

airplaneboy wrote:

I believe this has to do with their AA codeshare violating antitrust laws or something like that with regards to flying their own metal- and also codesharing on hub to hub routes. This was part of the conditions for the DOJ approval on the AS acquisition of VX.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice- ... -agreement

For example, the settlement would permit either airline to rely on the codeshare to serve destinations it would otherwise be unlikely to serve on its own in the near term. The department explained that this last type of codesharing can potentially benefit consumers by extending each carrier’s network and is less likely to lead to anticompetitive harm.

Okay... thanks for this. So since there is no gate space available AA’s pax are discriminated from using DAL-ORD,

but had Alaska chosen to serve
DAL - Phoenix Mesa Gateway - SAN

American could codeshare on feed connecting into San Diego, connecting on to Phoenix Mesa Gateway?

Seems very “gray.”

We know AA won’t be serving ORD-DAL cause there are no DAL gates.
We know AA won’t be serving Phoenix Mesa Gateway because from SAN, because AA has the hub in PHX.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
ScottB
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:10 pm

chunhimlai wrote:
Will AS build new hub in DFW and operate in the new Terminal F exclusively?


No, AA already has dibs on Terminal F. AS will build Terminals G and H, take used A380s from MH, LH, AF, QR, and EY, and start daily non-stop service on unique monopoly routes like DFW-IKA, DFW-DAM, DFW-FNJ, DFW-TBU, and DFW-FIH.

KlimaBXsst wrote:
but had Alaska chosen to serve
DAL - Phoenix Mesa Gateway - SAN

American could codeshare on feed connecting into San Diego, connecting on to Phoenix Mesa Gateway?


I think it's more that AS would be allowed to put its code on services like DFW-LHR or PHL-CDG. or that AA could code share on ANC-OME or FAI-BRW. Not to mention that AS would have to be bonkers to add something like DAL-AZA with zero connecting feed at either end and against WN's six daily non-stops to PHX, not to mention AA's 12 daily round-trips at DFW.
 
unmlobo
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:32 pm

So...another day, DAL-SAN/SJC still not in the schedule past Nov 4; can we change the thread title to "AS cuts DAL-SAN/SJC"?

Sad to see these go, particularly SAN-DAL which I used last year, even booked Premium Class.
Went to school in ABQ, former airline employee. Now living in Dallas
 
seat1a
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:06 pm

Slightly off topic but was the former AS routes from DAL not working very well (DAL-LGA, DAL-DCA)? Was that too much of an 'experiment'? Just curious.
 
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enilria
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Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:09 pm

tphuang wrote:
enilria wrote:
unmlobo wrote:
As maybe many expected, these increases have been pulled out of the schedule before ever being flown.

Instead one of the SFO frequencies will shift to SEA but the schedule will remain at 13 flights a day out of DAL as of Aug 27:

3x LAX
3x SEA
2x PDX
2x SFO
2x SJC
1x SAN
(All E75 except for one PDX gets mainline for a few days around Labor Day)
enilria wrote:
This is not happening because of demand. It would be interesting to know why it *is* happening. I’m sure it’s a bargaining ploy.

A particular posted accuses me of always being wrong on [email protected], but it appears I was right on the money again. This was just a ploy to hold their gates amid questionable performance at the WN hive. Not surprising. They should have just sold the gates to DL and let them fight the battle with a lot more resources.

It still confused me why they are so protective of this "asset". It's always going to a huge drain of their resources with no clear upside. Outside of dl, who else even wants it?

I can only guess that there are fewer and fewer things from VX so they feel a need to hold on/make this work to justify the merger (?).
cledaybuck wrote:
I have no idea. I’m not even sure why DL wants it? Do they do well in DAL or is it just a stick in the eye to WN?

I think the DAL airport as a geographic location is valuable and they are more worried about the competition with AA than WN. That doesn't mean it will work.
grbauc wrote:
The long time poster that are patting themselves on the back haha see.. Is a little off putting. Figured better from them. We don't know all the going on's MAX or some negotiations with airport or a airline. Of course they really might of just been a ploy to make the case for them to keep there gates. I don't tend to believe this kind of thing. However I/we don't know can only guess.

sxf24 wrote:
AS doesn’t own the gates and can’t sell them.

Your hubris is incredible.

Airports in the USA are owned by the government with few exceptions. The land is owned by the government. The terminals in nearly every case, that sits on government land, are owned by the government. So, yes I do realize they do not "own" the gates. Do you realize that pretty much no gate in the whole of the U.S. is "owned" by an airline? I guess not. That does not stop a leasehold interest from being sold as has happened 1000s of times in the history of U.S. airline aviation. So if such a thing exists, link to the lease terms that say that Alaska may not sell a leasehold or sublet on those gates. To my knowledge nobody has ever posted any proof that is the case, although it has come up over and over again. At best I was told that DOT/DOJ would "frown upon it" if it occurred within a couple of years of the 2014 transaction and have to review a transfer. BUT you seem to have secret info that Alaska cannot profit from the sublet or sale of a leasehold interest. Please post proof of this.
 
ctrabs0114
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:09 am

Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:55 pm

ScottB wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
Will AS build new hub in DFW and operate in the new Terminal F exclusively?


No, AA already has dibs on Terminal F. AS will build Terminals G and H, take used A380s from MH, LH, AF, QR, and EY, and start daily non-stop service on unique monopoly routes like DFW-IKA, DFW-DAM, DFW-FNJ, DFW-TBU, and DFW-FIH.


Oh, you forgot the "A.Net Favourite Rumour of All Time" - AS will do all of the above after it's purchase of B6. :D
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), 739 (DL), 712 (DL)
Next: AA: DFW-PHL (752), PHL-MIA (763), MIA-LAX (77W), LAX-DFW (789)
 
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enilria
Posts: 9498
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:03 pm

ctrabs0114 wrote:
ScottB wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
Will AS build new hub in DFW and operate in the new Terminal F exclusively?


No, AA already has dibs on Terminal F. AS will build Terminals G and H, take used A380s from MH, LH, AF, QR, and EY, and start daily non-stop service on unique monopoly routes like DFW-IKA, DFW-DAM, DFW-FNJ, DFW-TBU, and DFW-FIH.


Oh, you forgot the "A.Net Favourite Rumour of All Time" - AS will do all of the above after it's purchase of B6. :D

At some point a thing doesn't even rise to the lofty level of "Rumor".
 
ctrabs0114
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:09 am

Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:23 pm

enilria wrote:
ctrabs0114 wrote:
ScottB wrote:

No, AA already has dibs on Terminal F. AS will build Terminals G and H, take used A380s from MH, LH, AF, QR, and EY, and start daily non-stop service on unique monopoly routes like DFW-IKA, DFW-DAM, DFW-FNJ, DFW-TBU, and DFW-FIH.


Oh, you forgot the "A.Net Favourite Rumour of All Time" - AS will do all of the above after it's purchase of B6. :D

At some point a thing doesn't even rise to the lofty level of "Rumor".


This is true. I was just adding to the sarcasm portion of the thread.

AS remaining at DAL is still a head-scratcher to me, though. Granted, they've snuck a 737 on their flights from time to time, but it's mostly regionals, which for me personally, is not as appealing.
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), 739 (DL), 712 (DL)
Next: AA: DFW-PHL (752), PHL-MIA (763), MIA-LAX (77W), LAX-DFW (789)
 
superjeff
Posts: 1242
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:39 pm

YouGeeElWhy wrote:
WaywardMemphian wrote:
With all the growth to the north, i'd think McKinney would be a olace I'd want to set up shop, not expand DAL when more WA restrictions sunset.
NIMBYs will keep McKinney from having commercial service which i can understand their plight. DFW has more than enough capacity with its airports. As soon as Dallas can bust that 20 gate cap on DAL they need to do so and I’d guess if they can get International service too that would soften the blow for WN. AA is going to work to suppres growth (e.g. no Terminal F) at DFW, so City of Dallas needs to lead that growth with DAL.



Fully agree. There's no reason for an artificial 20 gate limit at DAL. Planes are much quieter than years ago when they were flying DC8's, 707's, and even multiple 747's/DC10's/L1011's at Love field. The limit protects nobody, including Southwest. No gates for anybody else, not enough for Southwest.
 
AirFiero
Posts: 1284
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:43 pm

Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:40 pm

unmlobo wrote:
So...another day, DAL-SAN/SJC still not in the schedule past Nov 4; can we change the thread title to "AS cuts DAL-SAN/SJC"?

Sad to see these go, particularly SAN-DAL which I used last year, even booked Premium Class.


So is it confirmed that AS has completely dropped these two routes, or it just isn’t showing up as bookable for now?
 
737max8
Posts: 519
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:13 am

Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:07 pm

If AS is really dropping more service and is just down to SFO/LAX/SEA/PDX something has to be done. That would be like 10 flights from 2 gates (5 per) while WN and DL squeeze in 200 flights from 18 gates (11.1 per).
The thoughts and opinions expressed in my comments do not represent that of any airline or affiliate.
Flown on: 717 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 7M8 744 744ER 752 753 762 763 772 773ER 788 789 A319/20/21 A332 A333 A343 A359 A388
 
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fanoftristars
Posts: 1624
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 9:03 am

Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:11 pm

AAtakeMeAway wrote:
Sorry to hijack the thread, but this got me interested in DL's ops at DAL. I was surprised to see that they are 100% mainline. I assume that is an indication that bookings are strong. At one time it was a mix of RJ/mainline - does anyone know for how long they've been 100% mainline? I'm pretty sure that at one point even DFW-ATL had some RJ flights (I don't believe that's the case anymore - I think all of the DL RJ ops at DFW are to the other hubs).


I think they do ok - but not as well as DFW. My anecdotal experience flying out of both airports to Atlanta is that upgrades on DAL-ATL are much easier that DFW-ATL, and while every flight I've been on DFW-ATL is packed full, DAL-ATL usually has several open seats.

My biggest issue with DAL on Delta is when DL is not using their gate, WN is there, and they usually have a delayed flight at the gate while the DL plane holds on the taxiway. Probably happened at least 5 times to me. One night we waited 40 min for the WN plane to move :(
"FLY DELTA JETS"
 
sxf24
Posts: 857
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:13 pm

enilria wrote:
tphuang wrote:
enilria wrote:
A particular posted accuses me of always being wrong on [email protected], but it appears I was right on the money again. This was just a ploy to hold their gates amid questionable performance at the WN hive. Not surprising. They should have just sold the gates to DL and let them fight the battle with a lot more resources.

It still confused me why they are so protective of this "asset". It's always going to a huge drain of their resources with no clear upside. Outside of dl, who else even wants it?

I can only guess that there are fewer and fewer things from VX so they feel a need to hold on/make this work to justify the merger (?).
cledaybuck wrote:
I have no idea. I’m not even sure why DL wants it? Do they do well in DAL or is it just a stick in the eye to WN?

I think the DAL airport as a geographic location is valuable and they are more worried about the competition with AA than WN. That doesn't mean it will work.
grbauc wrote:
The long time poster that are patting themselves on the back haha see.. Is a little off putting. Figured better from them. We don't know all the going on's MAX or some negotiations with airport or a airline. Of course they really might of just been a ploy to make the case for them to keep there gates. I don't tend to believe this kind of thing. However I/we don't know can only guess.

sxf24 wrote:
AS doesn’t own the gates and can’t sell them.

Your hubris is incredible.

Airports in the USA are owned by the government with few exceptions. The land is owned by the government. The terminals in nearly every case, that sits on government land, are owned by the government. So, yes I do realize they do not "own" the gates. Do you realize that pretty much no gate in the whole of the U.S. is "owned" by an airline? I guess not. That does not stop a leasehold interest from being sold as has happened 1000s of times in the history of U.S. airline aviation. So if such a thing exists, link to the lease terms that say that Alaska may not sell a leasehold or sublet on those gates. To my knowledge nobody has ever posted any proof that is the case, although it has come up over and over again. At best I was told that DOT/DOJ would "frown upon it" if it occurred within a couple of years of the 2014 transaction and have to review a transfer. BUT you seem to have secret info that Alaska cannot profit from the sublet or sale of a leasehold interest. Please post proof of this.


AS doesn’t even have a lease on the gates - it’s a sublease from AA.
 
User avatar
fanoftristars
Posts: 1624
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 9:03 am

Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:17 pm

superjeff wrote:
YouGeeElWhy wrote:
WaywardMemphian wrote:
With all the growth to the north, i'd think McKinney would be a olace I'd want to set up shop, not expand DAL when more WA restrictions sunset.
NIMBYs will keep McKinney from having commercial service which i can understand their plight. DFW has more than enough capacity with its airports. As soon as Dallas can bust that 20 gate cap on DAL they need to do so and I’d guess if they can get International service too that would soften the blow for WN. AA is going to work to suppres growth (e.g. no Terminal F) at DFW, so City of Dallas needs to lead that growth with DAL.



Fully agree. There's no reason for an artificial 20 gate limit at DAL. Planes are much quieter than years ago when they were flying DC8's, 707's, and even multiple 747's/DC10's/L1011's at Love field. The limit protects nobody, including Southwest. No gates for anybody else, not enough for Southwest.


As someone who lives between Lemmon and Cedar Springs in Oak Lawn, who hears planes fly over my home starting at 6:02 am each day, I still support them expanding DAL. It's such a convenient airport for those in Dallas city limits.That would make most of this AS business a moot point. One more parallel concourse would do it. And surprisingly, I want more Max-8 flights as you can tell a difference in the engine noise overhead.
"FLY DELTA JETS"
 
lhpdx
Posts: 870
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:36 pm

Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:19 pm

SANFan wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:
Ummmm, AS never claimed to be interested in DAL-SJC/SAN at the time of the sale as VX never flew those routes. At 13 flights a day, they are still flying as many flights a day from DAL as VX did at the time of the sale.

Ummmmm, then why did they start flying between DAL and their 2 focus cities? It's nice to learn that they weren't really interested in the 2 routes. What difference does it make what Virgin flew from Love Field -- they didn't fly to SEA or PDX either but they did fly to the east coast. And AUS.

That's fine. WN does seem interested in serving SAN and SJC -- to DAL and lots of other places. Perhaps AS's new Network Planners will just scrap the whole 'focus city' idea and get back to their comfort zone -- SEA to everywhere, along with DL. I hope it works out well for them...

bb


Look on the bright side, AS SAN passengers still have easy connections via LAX........... :boxedin:
 
AAtakeMeAway
Posts: 414
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:59 am

Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:48 pm

chunhimlai wrote:
Will AS build new hub in DFW and operate in the new Terminal F exclusively?


Togepi - you're kidding, right?
 
User avatar
SANFan
Posts: 5028
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:10 am

Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:49 pm

AirFiero wrote:
So is it confirmed that AS has completely dropped these two routes, or it just isn’t showing up as bookable for now?

No it's not confirmed but neither route shows up in the online AS schedules and the flights were there at the beginning of the week. And the flights between DAL and SEA, PDX, SFO and LAX do appear on the AS schedules as of Nov 5.

So let's call it an educated guess that SAN & SJC to DAL are gone, and I would add, permanently. (No reason they would take them seasonal.)

lhpdx wrote:
Look on the bright side, AS SAN passengers still have easy connections via LAX....

Hey, just wait 'til PDX-DAL is dropped as AS further trims their DAL offerings to only SEA. I'll throw this 'bright side' right back atcha! ;)

bb
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 9498
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:53 pm

ctrabs0114 wrote:
enilria wrote:
ctrabs0114 wrote:

Oh, you forgot the "A.Net Favourite Rumour of All Time" - AS will do all of the above after it's purchase of B6. :D

At some point a thing doesn't even rise to the lofty level of "Rumor".


This is true. I was just adding to the sarcasm portion of the thread.

AS remaining at DAL is still a head-scratcher to me, though. Granted, they've snuck a 737 on their flights from time to time, but it's mostly regionals, which for me personally, is not as appealing.

I know! ;)

I think I saw one route is doing fairly well, I think it was SEA. The rest were poor, more of a revenue problem than load.
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 9498
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:57 pm

sxf24 wrote:
enilria wrote:
tphuang wrote:
It still confused me why they are so protective of this "asset". It's always going to a huge drain of their resources with no clear upside. Outside of dl, who else even wants it?

I can only guess that there are fewer and fewer things from VX so they feel a need to hold on/make this work to justify the merger (?).
cledaybuck wrote:
I have no idea. I’m not even sure why DL wants it? Do they do well in DAL or is it just a stick in the eye to WN?

I think the DAL airport as a geographic location is valuable and they are more worried about the competition with AA than WN. That doesn't mean it will work.
grbauc wrote:
The long time poster that are patting themselves on the back haha see.. Is a little off putting. Figured better from them. We don't know all the going on's MAX or some negotiations with airport or a airline. Of course they really might of just been a ploy to make the case for them to keep there gates. I don't tend to believe this kind of thing. However I/we don't know can only guess.

sxf24 wrote:
AS doesn’t own the gates and can’t sell them.

Your hubris is incredible.

Airports in the USA are owned by the government with few exceptions. The land is owned by the government. The terminals in nearly every case, that sits on government land, are owned by the government. So, yes I do realize they do not "own" the gates. Do you realize that pretty much no gate in the whole of the U.S. is "owned" by an airline? I guess not. That does not stop a leasehold interest from being sold as has happened 1000s of times in the history of U.S. airline aviation. So if such a thing exists, link to the lease terms that say that Alaska may not sell a leasehold or sublet on those gates. To my knowledge nobody has ever posted any proof that is the case, although it has come up over and over again. At best I was told that DOT/DOJ would "frown upon it" if it occurred within a couple of years of the 2014 transaction and have to review a transfer. BUT you seem to have secret info that Alaska cannot profit from the sublet or sale of a leasehold interest. Please post proof of this.


AS doesn’t even have a lease on the gates - it’s a sublease from AA.

It's a forced sub-lease. Again, I'll repeat. Sub-lease or not. Show me where they do not have the right to transfer the sub-lease or sub-sub-lease to another party for money. You could argue they already are doing that with Skywest, although most airports don't consider that a sub-lease. It is also not uncommon for a sub-lessor to then grant another carrier to use the gate for money if the sub-lease is exclusive.
 
YouGeeElWhy
Posts: 411
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:42 pm

Re: AS expands presence at DAL

Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:06 pm

superjeff wrote:
YouGeeElWhy wrote:
WaywardMemphian wrote:
With all the growth to the north, i'd think McKinney would be a olace I'd want to set up shop, not expand DAL when more WA restrictions sunset.
NIMBYs will keep McKinney from having commercial service which i can understand their plight. DFW has more than enough capacity with its airports. As soon as Dallas can bust that 20 gate cap on DAL they need to do so and I’d guess if they can get International service too that would soften the blow for WN. AA is going to work to suppres growth (e.g. no Terminal F) at DFW, so City of Dallas needs to lead that growth with DAL.

That did not age well, lol. :spin:

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