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LAXintl
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AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:04 am

American Airlines, British Airways, Iberia and Finnair have jointly applied with the DOT to have their existing JBA ATI extended to fully cover Aer Lingus.

Parties state that with Aer Lingus fully participating in the ATI JBA consumers will benefit with closer network integration and connectivity, greater capacity, lower fares thanks to EI 'value carrier' fares, and help stimulate overall traffic.

OST-2008-0252

=

Hardly shocking with full ownership of EI by IAG
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UPlog
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:30 am

:sarcastic: :sarcastic:

Its all the same talking points - more consumer choice, lower fares, traffic stimulation, etc.

Seems to me in my experience these JVs actually reduce choice, reduce price options, and squeeze out non-aligned carriers
 
golfingboy
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:57 am

Interesting - would the UK regulators have competition concerns if Norwegian either shrinks significantly (particularly TATL ops) or goes under?

I'd think they would require considerable slot divestures at LHR for ATI approval. I believe EI has around 20 slot pairs at LHR which is a decent chunk.
 
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janders
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:14 am

A logical step for IAG.

Though I also am increasingly doubtful about JV consumer benefits.
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
B1168
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:28 am

UPlog wrote:
:sarcastic: :sarcastic:

Its all the same talking points - more consumer choice, lower fares, traffic stimulation, etc.

Seems to me in my experience these JVs actually reduce choice, reduce price options, and squeeze out non-aligned carriers


Fair. Look at transpacific routes. There are some tier2-tier1 routes that are run with real economic sense (excluding insanely subsidized flights). But it’s hard to imagine how major airlines exploit these cities by carry them in droves and stuff them in their hub-hub long hauls. De-alliance allows less transfer needs, and is better for the most.
 
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mercure1
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:50 am

Yes certainly not a shock.

What I dont like about these JVs is that instead of airlines pricing independently creating many potential options for the client, with JV pricing tends to be more similar and inline with each other.
The competitive dynamic has changed for the worse in many situations.

Lets see how it goes with EI, but in my experience they often priced more like a LCC including low oneway pricing.
mercure f-wtcc
 
Eirules
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:35 am

EI have deep codeshare arrangements with both B6 and UA via their US hubs. Surely these will have to end in place of AA connections at LAX, ORD & MIA
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Galwayman
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:12 am

Hope it gets refused , transatlantic airfares ex Dublin are great value compared to London - this anti competitive nonsense is just a way to rip off passengers yet again
 
jomur
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:13 am

golfingboy wrote:
Interesting - would the UK regulators have competition concerns if Norwegian either shrinks significantly (particularly TATL ops) or goes under?

I'd think they would require considerable slot divestures at LHR for ATI approval. I believe EI has around 20 slot pairs at LHR which is a decent chunk.


Why? EI only uses the LHR slots to go to DUB... remove them and the price LHR to DUB goes up or disappear all together. Passengers mainly who connect with EI don't connect via LHR they do it via DUB from thier local airport... I would say they are completely different markets.
 
Galwayman
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:15 am

Is there a facility to email the DOT to object to this anticompetitive nonsense?
 
factsonly
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:27 am

Just a few questions........??

- Are the TATL joint ventures not based on EU-US Open Skies ??

- And will the USA/EU permit UK carriers to continue in a TATL JV under different/separate bilaterals and separate legal regimes, however liberal these may be?

- Are these bilaterals identical in nature. ??......do we know, do they already exist?

Anyone?
 
Andy33
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:16 pm

jomur wrote:
golfingboy wrote:
Interesting - would the UK regulators have competition concerns if Norwegian either shrinks significantly (particularly TATL ops) or goes under?

I'd think they would require considerable slot divestures at LHR for ATI approval. I believe EI has around 20 slot pairs at LHR which is a decent chunk.


Why? EI only uses the LHR slots to go to DUB... remove them and the price LHR to DUB goes up or disappear all together. Passengers mainly who connect with EI don't connect via LHR they do it via DUB from thier local airport... I would say they are completely different markets.

Not only that, but at the time that IAG took over Aer Lingus, the regulators made a condition that all the Aer Lingus LHR slots must continue to be used for UK-Ireland flights because there were fears in Ireland that they might otherwise be stripped out and used on other more lucrative services.
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:30 pm

Eirules wrote:
EI have deep codeshare arrangements with both B6 and UA via their US hubs. Surely these will have to end in place of AA connections at LAX, ORD & MIA


I'm curious about this as well.

From what I understand, EI have been dragging their feet on entering the agreement, and I'd love to know why.

Galwayman wrote:
Hope it gets refused , transatlantic airfares ex Dublin are great value compared to London - this anti competitive nonsense is just a way to rip off passengers yet again


This has nothing to do with the joint venture. It has everything to do with the UK's Air Passenger Duty.

I can book a flight on BA from Dublin to Washington DC via London and it is cheaper than buying the London to Washington DC on its own. This is solely due to the APD.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:41 pm

Actually, I am just reading the document and it says -

"The JBA, which provides Aer Lingus freedom to price independently and
codeshare with non-JBA carriers, will not only ensure that Aer Lingus’ value-carrier model is
preserved but will expand its reach. "

The link is here https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=DOT-OST-2008-0252-3427
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:41 pm

UPlog wrote:
in my experience these JVs actually reduce choice, reduce price options, and squeeze out non-aligned carriers

Those first three words being the operative.

Anecdotal perception isn't equivalent to fact.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Eirules
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:46 pm

ClassicLover wrote:
Actually, I am just reading the document and it says -

"The JBA, which provides Aer Lingus freedom to price independently and
codeshare with non-JBA carriers, will not only ensure that Aer Lingus’ value-carrier model is
preserved but will expand its reach. "

The link is here https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=DOT-OST-2008-0252-3427


While the document may say this, in practice I can imagine it being very different & that this is just to help get it past regulators. Realistically UA are not going to allow EI to book onward connections on their cheapest fares when AA are doing the same
The way you cut your meat reflects the way you live....
 
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GCT64
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:58 pm

JBAs benefit the airlines by allowing collusion and price fixing (they never mention that in the PR).
As a pax, I'm more interested in EI being brought into One World. It's frustrating flying on EI (owned by IAG), with BA (also owned by IAG) FF status and yet not getting any lounge access etc.
Flown in: A20N,A21N,A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,(..56 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:09 pm

GCT64 wrote:
JBAs benefit the airlines by allowing collusion and price fixing (they never mention that in the PR).
As a pax, I'm more interested in EI being brought into One World. It's frustrating flying on EI (owned by IAG), with BA (also owned by IAG) FF status and yet not getting any lounge access etc.


That is also addressed in the document. It says that oneworld alliance membership will be decided at a later date.

It also says that the frequent flyer programme of Aer Lingus will be integrated with AA/AY/BA/IB to allow full earning, status etc among the five carriers. So even though EI won't be in oneworld, the frequent flyers of the five airlines will allow full benefits.

With regards to collusion and price fixing, that is exactly what the JVs allow as they operate as one on the routes. It specifically says that in the document. However, it also does say Aer Lingus will be permitted to independently price as they wish, probably because their model is completely different to the other carriers.

It also points to the fact that Aer Lingus codeshare with UA out of two of the Aer Lingus US destinations and with JetBlue out of one. A total of three out of 12 Aer Lingus US destinations. It shows the map where AA will allow EI to codeshare on them out of all 12 destinations, with some out of Dublin for AA into Europe.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
golfingboy
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:08 pm

Andy33 wrote:
jomur wrote:
golfingboy wrote:
Interesting - would the UK regulators have competition concerns if Norwegian either shrinks significantly (particularly TATL ops) or goes under?

I'd think they would require considerable slot divestures at LHR for ATI approval. I believe EI has around 20 slot pairs at LHR which is a decent chunk.


Why? EI only uses the LHR slots to go to DUB... remove them and the price LHR to DUB goes up or disappear all together. Passengers mainly who connect with EI don't connect via LHR they do it via DUB from thier local airport... I would say they are completely different markets.

Not only that, but at the time that IAG took over Aer Lingus, the regulators made a condition that all the Aer Lingus LHR slots must continue to be used for UK-Ireland flights because there were fears in Ireland that they might otherwise be stripped out and used on other more lucrative services.


Less of a need to offer as many flights between LHR and DUB between both carriers. Both of them do depend on some level of connecting traffic on both ends (LON and Ireland markets) but if EI is added to the JBA then BA doesn’t need to compete as much for Ireland customers and EI doesn’t need to compete as much for LON customers as they will start “sharing” those customers.

While EI has to continue to operate their Ireland flights (DUB/CRK/BHD/SNN) there are no parameters requiring that BA continues to maintain their LCY/LHR frequencies into the Ireland market.

If this JBA approved with no concessions in place, I’d expect to see less LON-Ireland frequencies on the BA side. Also, in reading between the lines I’d expect to see higher fares for certain nonstop LON-US routes as the more cost conscious customers get funneled through DUB on EI. I am assuming this is at least something that might concern the UK regulators.
 
BA777FO
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:42 pm

Galwayman wrote:
Hope it gets refused , transatlantic airfares ex Dublin are great value compared to London - this anti competitive nonsense is just a way to rip off passengers yet again


The difference is often largely down to the whopping Air Passenger Duty charged by the UK for flights leaving the UK.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:47 pm

The end of EI at T5 JFK?

AA had a ghost town PAAlace that needs to
be filled

BOS also sees EI at the B6 terminal.

Id imagine that would change.

Just doesnt make sense to continue
 
vinniewinnie
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:58 pm

ClassicLover wrote:
Eirules wrote:
EI have deep codeshare arrangements with both B6 and UA via their US hubs. Surely these will have to end in place of AA connections at LAX, ORD & MIA


I'm curious about this as well.

From what I understand, EI have been dragging their feet on entering the agreement, and I'd love to know why.

Galwayman wrote:
Hope it gets refused , transatlantic airfares ex Dublin are great value compared to London - this anti competitive nonsense is just a way to rip off passengers yet again


This has nothing to do with the joint venture. It has everything to do with the UK's Air Passenger Duty.

I can book a flight on BA from Dublin to Washington DC via London and it is cheaper than buying the London to Washington DC on its own. This is solely due to the APD.


Absolutely not true! The reason that London -DC direct is more expensive is that it is direct, and people will pay more for that privilege! This is a yield issue, not an APD issue!
 
jumbojet
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:01 pm

Guaranteed B6 is already crying and writing a letter to the DOJ, similar to the one they wrote for the DL/VA/KE/AF tie-up.

Soon there will be no one left for B6 to dance with.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:01 pm

UPlog wrote:
in my experience these JVs actually reduce choice, reduce price options, and squeeze out non-aligned carriers

No doubt. Would be very disappointing, but expected, if the DOT continuous its practice of minimal resistance for competition-killing JVs.

LAX772LR wrote:
Anecdotal perception isn't equivalent to fact.


And your 6 words are only there to argue for argument's sake. Do you really want to go down the road of claiming that economic theory isn't valid in the case of JVs? Is that the latest stake you want to die on?
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:09 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
economic theory isn't valid in the case of JVs? Is that the latest stake you want to die on?

Well, I will state that I'd be thrilled to see the likes of you attempt to numerically demonstrate that on any specific JV.

Pick whichever one you'd like, and break it down. I'll listen.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
timberwolf24
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:18 pm

I wonder if EI or AA will start Shannon from ORD.
Living in LA, ORD/MDW will always be home!
 
chonetsao
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:26 pm

jumbojet wrote:
Guaranteed B6 is already crying and writing a letter to the DOJ, similar to the one they wrote for the DL/VA/KE/AF tie-up.

Soon there will be no one left for B6 to dance with.


DI+D8...ahhh also A321LR for B6 then in Europe there is Ryanair and Easyjet waiting for her!
 
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Aisak
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:07 pm

GCT64 wrote:
As a pax, I'm more interested in EI being brought into One World. It's frustrating flying on EI (owned by IAG), with BA (also owned by IAG) FF status and yet not getting any lounge access etc.

Frustrating as it is, yet there is nothing preventing EI to let BA (and/or IB and/or any other) passengers or top FFers into their lounges.

OW would force them open DUB LHR and JFK lounges for OW top FFers but it’s not like they couldn’t do it right know if they wanted. At least for sisters BA and IB
 
Detroit313
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:42 pm

Great news. American Airlines and IAG need to make the most out of Dublin.
 
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chepos
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:02 am

Maybe this will allow for CLT DUB and possibly DFW DUB to go year round on AA.
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
JetBlueCLT
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:24 am

Makes me wonder if we will see EI add CLT-DUB. AA/EI duo in the summer followed by EI solely flying CLT-DUB maybe 5 or 6 weekly with the 321neoLR. Would make sense.
Pittsburgh Penguins, Steelers, Pirates and Charlotte Hornets Fan
 
rj1385
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:28 am

Aer Lingus being part of IAG - would make me think that there is already the same pricing? Feel like all it does is move the connection target points for traffic to free up seats on the targeted higher premium direct routes.
 
Cunard
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:54 am

Galwayman wrote:
Is there a facility to email the DOT to object to this anticompetitive nonsense?


No there is not a facility for you to object to the DOT by personal email but you can always write them a nice little letter of complaint showing your total disdain for this ''anticompetitive nonsense''.

U.S. Department of Transportation
1200 New Jersey Avenue, SE
Washington, DC 20590
USA

I'm sure that the DOT would love to personally hear from you and read your letter of complaint!

Good luck and do keep us informed won't you with any response that you might get back from the DOT we all wait in anticipation ;-)
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
msycajun
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:20 am

Cunard wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
Is there a facility to email the DOT to object to this anticompetitive nonsense?


No there is not a facility for you to object to the DOT by personal email but you can always write them a nice little letter of complaint showing your total disdain for this ''anticompetitive nonsense''.

U.S. Department of Transportation
1200 New Jersey Avenue, SE
Washington, DC 20590
USA

I'm sure that the DOT would love to personally hear from you and read your letter of complaint!

Good luck and do keep us informed won't you with any response that you might get back from the DOT we all wait in anticipation ;-)

You can comment directly to the DOT here: https://www.regulations.gov/document?D= ... -0252-3427
No email or letter required :roll:
 
ELBOB
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:40 am

A quick way to determine if you're going to get screwed-over by a business proposal: do they refer to 'customers' or 'consumers'?

If the latter then you're in for a screwing; in their eyes you're just an anonymous, interchangable service-consumption unit that exists to be milked of as much revenue as possible.
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:00 am

vinniewinnie wrote:
Absolutely not true! The reason that London -DC direct is more expensive is that it is direct, and people will pay more for that privilege! This is a yield issue, not an APD issue!


I think it's a mixture of both APD and what you're saying in actual fact.

golfingboy wrote:
Less of a need to offer as many flights between LHR and DUB between both carriers. Both of them do depend on some level of connecting traffic on both ends (LON and Ireland markets) but if EI is added to the JBA then BA doesn’t need to compete as much for Ireland customers and EI doesn’t need to compete as much for LON customers as they will start “sharing” those customers.

While EI has to continue to operate their Ireland flights (DUB/CRK/BHD/SNN) there are no parameters requiring that BA continues to maintain their LCY/LHR frequencies into the Ireland market.

If this JBA approved with no concessions in place, I’d expect to see less LON-Ireland frequencies on the BA side. Also, in reading between the lines I’d expect to see higher fares for certain nonstop LON-US routes as the more cost conscious customers get funneled through DUB on EI. I am assuming this is at least something that might concern the UK regulators.


Your comments on the flights between London Heathrow and Dublin are interesting. You do know that all the Aer Lingus flights between the two are already available on British Airways website? If you do a flight search, it shows the Aer Lingus flights along with the British Airways flights and you can book what you want. They already "share" the customers, so your whole point here is moot as they codeshare with each other on these services.

There is a seven year guarantee on the Aer Lingus Heathrow slots being used for Irish flights. That will expire in September 2022, however I would be very surprised if anything changed there. The LHR routes make Aer Lingus a lot of money and as IAG are in the money making business, nothing will change there.

I disagree that you will see less frequencies from BA on Dublin, as the services have made money. They've increased flights from Heathrow and then added City, so it's working well for them. Regarding the change in fares as people get funneled through Dublin - doubt it. What it will do is allow the IAG airlines to have a carrier with lower fares than can be charged by IB/BA which will compete better with the Norwegian's of the world.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
Cunard
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:54 am

msycajun wrote:
Cunard wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
Is there a facility to email the DOT to object to this anticompetitive nonsense?


No there is not a facility for you to object to the DOT by personal email but you can always write them a nice little letter of complaint showing your total disdain for this ''anticompetitive nonsense''.

U.S. Department of Transportation
1200 New Jersey Avenue, SE
Washington, DC 20590
USA

I'm sure that the DOT would love to personally hear from you and read your letter of complaint!

Good luck and do keep us informed won't you with any response that you might get back from the DOT we all wait in anticipation ;-)

You can comment directly to the DOT here: https://www.regulations.gov/document?D= ... -0252-3427
No email or letter required :roll:


I'm not if you actually realised but my response was intended as pure 100% sarcasm ;-)
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:24 am

jfklganyc wrote:
The end of EI at T5 JFK?

AA had a ghost town PAAlace that needs to
be filled

BOS also sees EI at the B6 terminal.

Id imagine that would change.

Just doesnt make sense to continue


Another wrinkle, however, is that the Terminal 7 replacement will be developed by JetBlue, making the IAG slate of airlines at JFK tenants of B6, and I could also see LY coming in under the B6 roof as well. It would do well for IAG to not make enemies with their future landlord.
 
FrmrKSEngr
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:35 am

ClassicLover wrote:
GCT64 wrote:

It also points to the fact that Aer Lingus codeshare with UA out of two of the Aer Lingus US destinations and with JetBlue out of one. A total of three out of 12 Aer Lingus US destinations. It shows the map where AA will allow EI to codeshare on them out of all 12 destinations, with some out of Dublin for AA into Europe.


EI and J6 were code sharing out of BOS and JFK. Has something changed?
 
tphuang
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:35 pm

These TATL JVs need to be examined closely. We need more competition, not less!
 
KeevaOS
Posts: 27
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Re: AA/AY/BA/IB apply to have EI fully included in Atlantic JBA ATI

Tue Dec 25, 2018 8:34 pm

Brilliant news for Aer Lingus. Hopefully it will go through and boost their short haul network too through more connections from North America

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