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cityshuttle
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Tue Dec 25, 2018 4:08 pm

Cunard wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
But aren't EUROWINGS moving their long haul flights from CGN to DUS?

I thought that was the plan, if so it would give NORWEGIAN an ideal airport with no long haul competition and I think that's why SKIP and myself mentioned CGN as being an ideal candidate for NORWEGIAN to possibly expand in Germany.


Exactly - EW longhaul got moved from CGN to DUS.

So CGN would be a good choice with no competition and 24/7 operations possible at this airport.

Same applies for SXF [at least until BER opens in late 2020] ... no competition and 24/7 operations. Since DY / D8 missed to secure slots at TXL, I guess this option is gone.

Unfortunately both options would rely on local traffic as they both have no feed from EU domestic flights by DY or D8 (except for ARN / CPH / OSL / BGO to SXF).
 
ABEguy
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Tue Dec 25, 2018 4:25 pm

[email protected] wrote:
ABEguy wrote:
skystar767 wrote:
It’s sad reading all the negative things about DY on here. Why so many of you dislike DY? What did the airline and the brand do to any of you? I look at DY as the 747 of our time. DY made traveling cheaper for the average hard working European or American to travel. Before the 747 came out the price of a ticket was above the reach of the average person to take a plane ride. With DY your flying on brand new airplanes not old second hand charter airlines. so to the low lifes on here wishing for the closing of DY you should learn about free market and how the big US 3 and the big EU3 are ***** you over every time. That I phone or Mac your writing your dislike on for DY if it was not for cheap labor half of you could not afford that iPhone or Mac or what ever phone or computer your on now.


You are absolutely wrong about this. You either havent researched why NAI is hated by airline employees, or you’re just simply ignoring it. No one, including myself is against free market competition. What NAI is doing though is not that at all. They’re using the flag of convienence model, an underhanded loophole approach to gain significant cost advantage over other airlines. Registering their aircraft and employees in what ever country has the least regulatory oversight and lowest labor standards to gain an advantage. All you need to do is look at the demise of the US maritime industry to understand the impact of flag of convinence. We don’t want to see our airline industry follow suit. So yes, down with Norwegian!


Three of their five AOCs are in expensive countries: Norway and the UK. A forth is Irish, with that unit having <70 aircraft. The fifth is in Argentina. So, only one - Irish - is really in question. Funnily enough, Scandinavian Airlines Ireland has existed since 2017, yet received very little attention.


It’s been awhile since I’ve looked into this but if memory serves correctly, their crews are also hired by outside contract agencies, based in places like Singapore on paper. This allows for serious labor law Circumnavigation. This practice, along with aircraft registry allows Norwegian to take advantage of cost savings not available to other carriers who are ethically complying with their home country’s safety regulations and labor laws.
 
[email protected]
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Tue Dec 25, 2018 4:42 pm

ABEguy wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
ABEguy wrote:

You are absolutely wrong about this. You either havent researched why NAI is hated by airline employees, or you’re just simply ignoring it. No one, including myself is against free market competition. What NAI is doing though is not that at all. They’re using the flag of convienence model, an underhanded loophole approach to gain significant cost advantage over other airlines. Registering their aircraft and employees in what ever country has the least regulatory oversight and lowest labor standards to gain an advantage. All you need to do is look at the demise of the US maritime industry to understand the impact of flag of convinence. We don’t want to see our airline industry follow suit. So yes, down with Norwegian!


Three of their five AOCs are in expensive countries: Norway and the UK. A forth is Irish, with that unit having <70 aircraft. The fifth is in Argentina. So, only one - Irish - is really in question. Funnily enough, Scandinavian Airlines Ireland has existed since 2017, yet received very little attention.


It’s been awhile since I’ve looked into this but if memory serves correctly, their crews are also hired by outside contract agencies, based in places like Singapore on paper. This allows for serious labor law Circumnavigation. This practice, along with aircraft registry allows Norwegian to take advantage of cost savings not available to other carriers who are ethically complying with their home country’s safety regulations and labor laws.


SAS Ireland was set up as a means of reducing labour expenses, given how notoriously expensive labour is in Scandinavia. Oddly, they get very little attention for this practice. Perhaps it's because they don't fly to the US. If so, the argument over Norwegian is because the US feels threatened - amid periods of record profits - rather than any real disdain for the practice.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
ABEguy
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:03 pm

[email protected] wrote:
ABEguy wrote:
[email protected] wrote:

Three of their five AOCs are in expensive countries: Norway and the UK. A forth is Irish, with that unit having <70 aircraft. The fifth is in Argentina. So, only one - Irish - is really in question. Funnily enough, Scandinavian Airlines Ireland has existed since 2017, yet received very little attention.


It’s been awhile since I’ve looked into this but if memory serves correctly, their crews are also hired by outside contract agencies, based in places like Singapore on paper. This allows for serious labor law Circumnavigation. This practice, along with aircraft registry allows Norwegian to take advantage of cost savings not available to other carriers who are ethically complying with their home country’s safety regulations and labor laws.


SAS Ireland was set up as a means of reducing labour expenses, given how notoriously expensive labour is in Scandinavia. Oddly, they get very little attention for this practice. Perhaps it's because they don't fly to the US. If so, the argument over Norwegian is because the US feels threatened - amid periods of record profits - rather than any real disdain for the practice.


I never even heard of SAS Ireland so you are correct. I’m an American, live in America, and try to keep my nose out of other peoples (countries?) business. If SAS Ireland began fights to BOS with the same underhanded practices they are using in EU, I’m sure I’d be up in arms about them too. Right now it’s NAI with their jumbo jets competing with US carriers on routes like JFK & FLL nonstop to LHR & CDG, all while using their flag of convenience model to do it.
 
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Finn350
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:11 pm

DY is the stronges competitor to AY, both on domestic routes in Finland and international routes in Europe. If DY goes down, it would unfortunately hike up AY prices :(
 
skipness1E
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Tue Dec 25, 2018 6:10 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
senatorflyer wrote:
Lol clearly you don’t know what you are talking about.


And you do? I got the feeling you're stuck in the box, stuck in a pattern of how things "should" be done. In your eyes, everything that doesn't match that pattern is doomed to fail. However there are countless examples of success because people dared to break the pattern.

Of course not everything outside the box will succeed, but that doesn't mean you have to stay inside it all the time. It just means you got to find your own way, which sometimes takes a little steering-by. It's unexplored territory. It might work or it might not, there's only one way to find out. I just don't believe in people who say upfront that it won't work because it's out of the box, out of their way of thinking.

I'm thinking of this "out of the box" territory as a swamp. You might stay away from it, or you might find your way through it. Stay away from it and you'll be safe, but it takes you more effort to get to the other side. Find your way through it you risk drowning, but if you succeed you can beat the ones staying away from it. Comparing this to airlines, legacy airlines stay away from the swamp. They just take the extra effort of getting around it for granted, for unavoidable costs. The ones going through the swamp are able to shave off a good bit of those costs the legacies took for granted.

No serious person in business ever uses the phrase "out of the box", it's a meaningless cliche. You are, once again, fundamentally misunderstanding a business fundamental. There are as you say, countless of people thinking differently, they are "entrepreneurs", like Stelios and Branson. These people set up the business, they do not run it, they do not have a management skill set. Hence SRB is kept far away from day to day running of VS and Stelios does nothing but grumble about easyJet, neither of which they own. The HIT RATE of success of an entrepreneur, is tiny. Stelios, and Branson have a track record of some success and more money than god, BUT their list of failed companies is much longer, they are risk takers. In aviation, a safety regulated businee, you can only stretch things so far. You keep banging on about cutting costs, but costs can't be cut much further.
Whose job are you suggesting is paid less PatrickZ80? Pilots too pricey? They start their careers with upwwards of £70K of debt. Cabin crew? Outwith old contract at BA it's a hard job where the airlines work their young people long hours to churn them out of the business to replace them with fresh enthusiastic newbies. Ground crew? Mainly outsourced with few benefits. I assume you are a fan of Ryanair's model of simply firing their pilots when they didn't agree to move from Holland to Morroco? COSTS are as low as they can safely go mate, you keep writing screeds about a market that exists only in your head. But what do I know? I'm a marekting analyst, I do this for a day job.
It's not APD. It's not wading through a swamp. There's no magic cost cutting anymore to save DY, they've stretced every legal rule and regualtion as far as they can to cut costs, they don't even employ their own pilots! It's pathetic this OBESSION with the consumerist approach, that we have to SCREW OVER other people's salaries so we can fly 22 times a year instead of 21.
Happy Christmas :) #workforlessplebs
 
smartplane
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Tue Dec 25, 2018 8:09 pm

Cunard wrote:
Cunard wrote:
I remember that whole saga as if it was yesterday....


I was a 16yo lad at the time..............

Off topic, but...........

I'm older than you, so perhaps the memory is failing.

I worked for an accounting firm which peer reviewed one of the financing banks, and later provided specialist advice to the receivers. With a different employer, we were hired to conduct a review of current and proposed deregulation for the CAB, of which one recommendation was major airlines should divest interests in booking services and travel agents.
 
gunnerman
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Tue Dec 25, 2018 8:29 pm

BA migrated from its booking system BABS to Amadeus during 1998 and 1999 IIRC.

Airlines don't own travel agents but use them to make bookings via GDSs such as Amadeus.
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Tue Dec 25, 2018 9:05 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
skystar767 wrote:
. DY made traveling cheaper for the average hard working European or American to travel.


I am still waiting to see DY offering a competitive price for any flight I want to go on. At least when there is hubbing involved they are not cheap at all.

Best regards
Thomas


As a fan of the Premier League, I can get to London and Back from Denver for less than 500 bucks.

I fhink they should have hit up Dallas before Austin. Spirit should code share with them in select markets

If Frontier's parent company was/is interested in WOW, they should be salivating at Norwegian. They could work with Airbus on that Norwegain order and then dump the 737s.

If Walsh got ahold of those 787s, he could expand the TATL flights to the US more across his brands. IND, STL, MCI, CMH, and MEM could all have a go with at least some 2x and 3x seasonal service. If Charleston is possible, anything is.
 
winginit
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:06 pm

WaywardMemphian wrote:
winginit wrote:
787Driver wrote:
Great news! Now can we lock the thread is the topic is based on uneducated and undocumented speculation.


Was it uneducated and undocumented speculation that tanked Norwegian's stock today -6.42% ?

The carrier's dire financial straits are well documented to the point where you hardly need an educated view to realize the current path is unsustainable.


Everything is tanking if you haven't noticed.


Everything is not tanking 6%+ in one day. Norwegian's decline is very obviously disproportionate to the broader market and aviation sector.
 
BA777FO
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:51 pm

skipness1E wrote:
Whose job are you suggesting is paid less PatrickZ80? Pilots too pricey? They start their careers with upwwards of £70K of debt. Cabin crew? Outwith old contract at BA it's a hard job where the airlines work their young people long hours to churn them out of the business to replace them with fresh enthusiastic newbies. Ground crew? Mainly outsourced with few benefits. I assume you are a fan of Ryanair's model of simply firing their pilots when they didn't agree to move from Holland to Morroco? COSTS are as low as they can safely go mate, you keep writing screeds about a market that exists only in your head. But what do I know? I'm a marekting analyst, I do this for a day job.
It's not APD. It's not wading through a swamp. There's no magic cost cutting anymore to save DY, they've stretced every legal rule and regualtion as far as they can to cut costs, they don't even employ their own pilots! It's pathetic this OBESSION with the consumerist approach, that we have to SCREW OVER other people's salaries so we can fly 22 times a year instead of 21.
Happy Christmas :) #workforlessplebs


Exactly that. :thumbsup:
 
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c933103
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:57 am

What's more important to Norwegian isn't what they're currently facing but what they will face in the future if economy continue to worsen
winginit wrote:
WaywardMemphian wrote:
winginit wrote:

Was it uneducated and undocumented speculation that tanked Norwegian's stock today -6.42% ?

The carrier's dire financial straits are well documented to the point where you hardly need an educated view to realize the current path is unsustainable.


Everything is tanking if you haven't noticed.


Everything is not tanking 6%+ in one day. Norwegian's decline is very obviously disproportionate to the broader market and aviation sector.

In case you haven't notice, stock price is a reflection of mentality of investors and have no direct relationship with company performance.
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate. 求同存異. よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
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(≧▽≦) Meow Meow Meow! Meow Meow Meow Meow!
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WaywardMemphian
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:49 am

Who's economy?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-holida ... 1545777668

There is a massive disconnect with the markets and reality over the fear of the days of free money from the Fed is over and TDS. I disagreed with thr most recent interest rate increase but this reaction is the markets acting the most childish it has in a while. Add that to the partial gov't shutdown hysteria that is much to do about nothing and you have this nonsense
 
ABEguy
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:06 am

WaywardMemphian wrote:
Who's economy?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-holida ... 1545777668

There is a massive disconnect with the markets and reality over the fear of the days of free money from the Fed is over and TDS. I disagreed with thr most recent interest rate increase but this reaction is the markets acting the most childish it has in a while. Add that to the partial gov't shutdown hysteria that is much to do about nothing and you have this nonsense


Exactly! Here are the 2019 projection highlights.

• GDP growth goes from 2.9% to 2.5% due to the fed raising interest rates to keep the economy from “overheating”.

• Unemployment will drop to 3%

• wages rise 2.25%

https://www.goldmansachs.com/insights/p ... -2019.html

Hope they’re right!
 
minilinde
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:29 am

ABEguy wrote:

I never even heard of SAS Ireland so you are correct. I’m an American, live in America, and try to keep my nose out of other peoples (countries?) business. If SAS Ireland began fights to BOS with the same underhanded practices they are using in EU, I’m sure I’d be up in arms about them too. Right now it’s NAI with their jumbo jets competing with US carriers on routes like JFK & FLL nonstop to LHR & CDG, all while using their flag of convenience model to do it.

SAS Irland (also called SAIL) is also just a footnote in the overall SK production. They have 9 out of the 80 A320neo’s SK has ordered, and are operating from 2 bases, AGP and LHR. They also only serve the Scandinavian market, and are not flying other infra-European flights (eg LHR-Germany etc.). Maybe that’s why you haven’t heard about them, SAIL is a relative small part of SK
Types flown: A220, A318, A319, A320, A321, A32N, A333, A343, A359, A380, AT42, AT72, B717, B733, B735, B736, B737, B738, B739, B744, B748, B763, B772, B773, B788, B789, C550, CRJ2, CRJ9, DH4D, F50, ERJ190, MD80s/90, RJ100
 
ELBOB
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:41 am

ABEguy wrote:
Registering their aircraft and employees in what ever country has the least regulatory oversight and lowest labor standards to gain an advantage.


Ireland, UK and Norway are the dregs of the regulatory barrel? I think you'll need to provide some citations for that; generally those countries are considered in the top-tier. Norwegian do have some 737s on the Argentine register now as well but they are a tiny minority.

There's really no getting around regulatory oversight in commercial aviation; you could put all your aircraft on the Guernsey 2-Reg but they stil subscribe to EASA standard. Maybe try VP- registrations, but they align with the UK CAA.

If there was a shortcut then ALL airlines would be doing it, because all airlines are amoral corporations. They don't care about you, me, or Tessa Trolley-Dolly.
 
YIMBY
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Wed Dec 26, 2018 8:06 am

BA777FO wrote:
YIMBY wrote:
The Terms and Conditions for Norwegian pilots are still significantly better than those of average workers. It is that the Terms and Conditions of Legacy airlines are from another planet. Remember, it is the poor passengers who pay the extra high salaries of pilots and other staff.


Really?! Trying to equate a pilot to an "average worker" is never going to enhance your argument - it's not an "average" job. How do you justify conditions for legacy pilots are "from another planet"? Genuinely curious of the thought-process here.


Pilots are not another race.

It takes two years and up to 200 000 euros/dollars/pounds to be a pilot (may be much less if the government or airline sponsors it). There are also some tests and thresholds who can enter the pilot training and depending on the region you live it may be tougher or easier to get a job. In large parts of the earth the biggest threshold is to get money to pay the bills of the flight school.

The pilots of legacy airlines earn 100 000 - 300 000 euros/dollars a year. That is twice as much as a typical physician (min six years in the university) or three times as much as a typical engineer (five years in the university), four times as much as a typical scientist (ten years in the university) and ten times as much as a typical truck driver (whose salaries are very variable: while a truck driver in France will earn 2500 euros monthly, East European drivers in the same route get hardly 250 euros).

Pilots have also other benefits, costly hotels, long vacations, option to influence to, if not even dictate the company strategy and route map.

Add to that that typical flight attendants of legacy airlines may earn twice as much as in any comparable terrestrial job.

If you have more exact numbers, feel free to add them here.

I am not against that the airline staff earn a bit more than others, as we need suitable persons there to care of safety and economic incentives are a way to attract people (whether it is right people is another issue). The current situation is, however, excessive, and only due to the unsymmetric negotiating power the unions have over passengers.
 
Someone83
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Wed Dec 26, 2018 8:06 am

ABEguy wrote:
It’s been awhile since I’ve looked into this but if memory serves correctly, their crews are also hired by outside contract agencies, based in places like Singapore on paper. This allows for serious labor law Circumnavigation. This practice, along with aircraft registry allows Norwegian to take advantage of cost savings not available to other carriers who are ethically complying with their home country’s safety regulations and labor laws.


Most of the longhaul crew is hired, either based in the EU or the USA on local contracts. But assume it is the latter you refer to as the "dodgy" country regarding labour laws and regulation? :stirthepot:

Anyway, Norwegian has their issues, but right here media is misunderstanding, deliberately or not, between being in risk of breaching one or more financial covenants in their bond agreement with a financial collaps. Yes, the latter will happen in the longer term if they are not able to restructure in some way or another, this is not a issue in the short term
 
Orlik
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Wed Dec 26, 2018 8:16 am

"out of the box"

What does it mean exactly has been shown by Ryanair. With help of the company, pilots create their Ltd companies where they book their cost for type rating and other training. Later with help of tax advisers, they depreciate them in a manner that they don't pay income tax for almost three years. So this enables to profit Ryanair on the cost of Irish tax system. So no wonder that e.g. German tax and labor authorities are not in compliance with it and don't accept entrepreneurs status of pilots. Something like this is quite common in my homeland CZ and since mid of 90's widely punished /but not disappeared yet/.
To be out of the box sometimes means to avoid taxes like companies starting with Uber, Airbnb, and you can finish with giants like Google. Without doubts, their business has some new thoughts, added value and mostly they're useful, but many times it also brings some unfairness in the business environment and harms competition.

On the other side pilots mentioned their debt for appropriate training? Here it's quite simple because they can easily calculate the final bill for pilot and type rating. But do they sometimes realize what let's say university study cost for doctor, lawyer etc incl 5-6 years without income?
 
winginit
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:57 pm

c933103 wrote:
What's more important to Norwegian isn't what they're currently facing but what they will face in the future if economy continue to worsen
winginit wrote:
WaywardMemphian wrote:

Everything is tanking if you haven't noticed.


Everything is not tanking 6%+ in one day. Norwegian's decline is very obviously disproportionate to the broader market and aviation sector.

In case you haven't notice, stock price is a reflection of mentality of investors and have no direct relationship with company performance.


That is, of course, complete nonsense. Stock price is driven by investor mentality yes, but institutional investor mentality is driven predominantly by analyst estimates and ratings, which are derived from financial statements.

That financial tidbit aside - state your claim. Mine is that by the end of 2020, Norwegian's long-haul network will be scaled back to the tune of at least 50% if it exists at all.
 
BA777FO
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:07 pm

I don't want to get too off topic but it is pertinent to how Norwegian treats its staff and the race to the bottom is very much accelerated by the awful employment practices of airlines like Norwegian.

YIMBY wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
YIMBY wrote:
In large parts of the earth the biggest threshold is to get money to pay the bills of the flight school.


Not any old numpty with a wad of cash can become a pilot. You don't this job, you have to work and plenty of people with pilot's licences never become longhaul Captains. There's no guarantee of a job even after spending over £100,000. The vast majority of people who complete their medical training will get a job in the medical field.

The pilots of legacy airlines earn 100 000 - 300 000 euros/dollars a year. That is twice as much as a typical physician (min six years in the university) or three times as much as a typical engineer (five years in the university), four times as much as a typical scientist (ten years in the university) and ten times as much as a typical truck driver (whose salaries are very variable: while a truck driver in France will earn 2500 euros monthly, East European drivers in the same route get hardly 250 euros).


First, a new hire FO at a major airline in Europe will earn about £30,000 -€35,000 as a basic salary in their first year - even less at airlines like Veuling. It's taken me nearly 11 years to earn £100,000 at BA. This isn't an instaneous get rich scheme and has involved paying back a lot of money in training loans. Many pilots also have degrees - I do and most major US airlines require a Bachelor's degree as part of their minimum requirements. So that's 5+ years of training, not just 2, as well as the associated loss of earnings and additional debt repayments. The top basic salary I could earn is £175,000 and that'll take 24 years and the seniority for and to pass a longhaul command course. Yes, it's a lot of money, but it takes a lot of financial risk, a long time and it's not just any old job that everyone has the aptitude to do. It also comes with significant sacrifices to health, ordinary and family life.

And don't try and equate a pilot to a truck driver. That's like equating a brain surgeon to a first aider.

Pilots have also other benefits, costly hotels, long vacations, option to influence to, if not even dictate the company strategy and route map.


Not all hotels we stay at are costly. Also, what you might see as a benefit isn't really: I'd rather sleep in my own bed than a Crowne Plaza next to a highway for 2 nights. Hardly a benefit. Long vacations? I get 4 weeks per year. Dictate company strategy?! I'm sorry, but you're seriously wrong. And if they're the only benefits you can come up with it shows this isn't as glamerous as it's made out to be. 6 days in a row, finishing at 2am each day after 11 hour duties that include loads of deicing, LVPs and/or strong winds with a multitude of ADDs each sector isn't a walk in the park. Like I said before, over those 6 days (or a 9 day Singapore/Sydney trip on longhaul) you could have missed your kid's birth, wife's birthday, anniversary, all sorts of important family events.

Add to that that typical flight attendants of legacy airlines may earn twice as much as in any comparable terrestrial job.


In how many terrestrial jobs are you expected to be a firefighter, nurse, police officer and waiter/waitress and chef all rolled into one? Just FYI, mixed fleet crew at BA, as well as those at easyJet, Ryanair, Norwegian etc earn a basic salary of about £12,000 and allowances bump it up to about £20,000 - less than the UK average wage.

The current situation is, however, excessive, and only due to the unsymmetric negotiating power the unions have over passengers.


Excessive? Only those who have never done it would ever say that.

Unsymmetric negotiating power? I haven't had an above inflation payrise since I joined 11 years ago, but I have taken pay cuts and pay freezes. I've also had to give up certain bidding rights and scheduling protections. It's stacked up in the company's favour more than you'll ever know.

Norwegian going bust would be awful for those that lose jobs but it would help slow down the race to the bottom that companies like this perpetuate.
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:14 pm

winginit wrote:
c933103 wrote:
What's more important to Norwegian isn't what they're currently facing but what they will face in the future if economy continue to worsen
winginit wrote:

Everything is not tanking 6%+ in one day. Norwegian's decline is very obviously disproportionate to the broader market and aviation sector.

In case you haven't notice, stock price is a reflection of mentality of investors and have no direct relationship with company performance.


That is, of course, complete nonsense. Stock price is driven by investor mentality yes, but institutional investor mentality is driven predominantly by analyst estimates and ratings, which are derived from financial statements.

That financial tidbit aside - state your claim. Mine is that by the end of 2020, Norwegian's long-haul network will be scaled back to the tune of at least 50% if it exists at all.


There's plenty of speculation. Hell, I bought Bombardier at under $1(US) just because the C Series was too good for someone not to pick it up. I'm pissed only doubled up. I did the same thing with Seaworld stock.

They should have never used anything but their own metal and RR didn't help by placing turds in the turbines. They nees to get the A320s leased and delivered o the leasees and get that money flowing in. I imagines if that they could do the same with the A321lrs, but I would love to see if that would be the right plane for some other TATL markets or better serve those they already have like Chicago and I wish Dublin was their Gatwick instead.
 
SKCPH
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:16 pm

ELBOB wrote:
ABEguy wrote:
Registering their aircraft and employees in what ever country has the least regulatory oversight and lowest labor standards to gain an advantage.


Ireland, UK and Norway are the dregs of the regulatory barrel? I think you'll need to provide some citations for that; generally those countries are considered in the top-tier. Norwegian do have some 737s on the Argentine register now as well but they are a tiny minority.

There's really no getting around regulatory oversight in commercial aviation; you could put all your aircraft on the Guernsey 2-Reg but they stil subscribe to EASA standard. Maybe try VP- registrations, but they align with the UK CAA.

If there was a shortcut then ALL airlines would be doing it, because all airlines are amoral corporations. They don't care about you, me, or Tessa Trolley-Dolly.



Well, there is a reason that Ireland is chosen by multiple big companies as the place to setup European subsidiaries. Practically no taxation and little regulatory hassle. As for airlines I find it telling that they are registered in Ireland, but operate primarily on the continent.
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:31 pm

YIMBY wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
YIMBY wrote:
The Terms and Conditions for Norwegian pilots are still significantly better than those of average workers. It is that the Terms and Conditions of Legacy airlines are from another planet. Remember, it is the poor passengers who pay the extra high salaries of pilots and other staff.


Really?! Trying to equate a pilot to an "average worker" is never going to enhance your argument - it's not an "average" job. How do you justify conditions for legacy pilots are "from another planet"? Genuinely curious of the thought-process here.


Pilots are not another race.

It takes two years and up to 200 000 euros/dollars/pounds to be a pilot (may be much less if the government or airline sponsors it). There are also some tests and thresholds who can enter the pilot training and depending on the region you live it may be tougher or easier to get a job. In large parts of the earth the biggest threshold is to get money to pay the bills of the flight school.

The pilots of legacy airlines earn 100 000 - 300 000 euros/dollars a year. That is twice as much as a typical physician (min six years in the university) or three times as much as a typical engineer (five years in the university), four times as much as a typical scientist (ten years in the university) and ten times as much as a typical truck driver (whose salaries are very variable: while a truck driver in France will earn 2500 euros monthly, East European drivers in the same route get hardly 250 euros).

Pilots have also other benefits, costly hotels, long vacations, option to influence to, if not even dictate the company strategy and route map.

Add to that that typical flight attendants of legacy airlines may earn twice as much as in any comparable terrestrial job.

If you have more exact numbers, feel free to add them here.

I am not against that the airline staff earn a bit more than others, as we need suitable persons there to care of safety and economic incentives are a way to attract people (whether it is right people is another issue). The current situation is, however, excessive, and only due to the unsymmetric negotiating power the unions have over passengers.



YIMBY, I hate to say it, but you really know very little as to the actual state of affairs, or the actual merits of the job. It seems like your view of the industry/profession is influenced primarily by the media. I really couldn’t care less what a doctor, teacher or an engineer makes. I am sure they earn every penny they make. Just like I do. I would never make broad generalizations about other people’s jobs or whether they make more than I think they should. They fact that you brought up “costly hotels” tells me all I need to know about your perspective. The vast majority of aircrew are sick and tired of hotels, they just want a nice, clean, quiet and safe place to sleep.
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:34 pm

SKCPH wrote:
Well, there is a reason that Ireland is chosen by multiple big companies as the place to setup European subsidiaries. Practically no taxation and little regulatory hassle. As for airlines I find it telling that they are registered in Ireland, but operate primarily on the continent.


Ireland's corporate tax rate is 12.5%, which is competitive. Other European countries are not far off though - UK will be 17% from 2020, Switzerland is 16.55%, Hungary is 9%, Cyprus 12.5%, to name but a few.

Part of the reason Ireland is selected is due to the English speaking and highly educated workforce, which probably sways it over other European countries (especially Eastern European countries) with lower rates, and of course over the UK, which currently has a 19% rate. That being said, there are always loopholes.
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:58 pm

BA777FO wrote:
I don't want to get too off topic but it is pertinent to how Norwegian treats its staff and the race to the bottom is very much accelerated by the awful employment practices of airlines like Norwegian.


I have seen awful employment practices. You probably don't. Compare to truck drivers doing cabotage over Europe. Compare to other tourist business, restaurants, holiday resorts, taxi drivers, scientists, programmers, etc. Pilots job market will never be even close to similar because there is a very large threshold to get the competence of the pilot and there will never be a flow of job applicants that are ready take the job at any conditions.

BA777FO wrote:
The vast majority of people who complete their medical training will get a job in the medical field.


If one is found unsuitable, one cannot get a decent job. Medical doctors need some minimal social skills.

It is extremely difficult to enter to study medicine in a university. And after the degree you may have to do low-paid internships to get the license.

There are other academic careers where a significant fraction do not get a decent job ever. And there are fields where young graduates are fought over but when you are 40 you are thrown out for good.

BA777FO wrote:
First, a new hire FO at a major airline in Europe will earn about £30,000 -€35,000 as a basic salary in their first year - even less at airlines like Veuling.


In which professions will one earn even close to that in their first year?

BA777FO wrote:
And don't try and equate a pilot to a truck driver. That's like equating a brain surgeon to a first aider.


Both are respectable professions.

BA777FO wrote:
Dictate company strategy?! I'm sorry, but you're seriously wrong.


Never heard of Air France, to start with?

BA777FO wrote:

In how many terrestrial jobs are you expected to be a firefighter, nurse, police officer and waiter/waitress and chef all rolled into one?


Preschool teacher, to start with. For that you need 3 to 5 years education, compared with a couple of months course for a flight attendant (though many have a previous vocational or even academic degree, but it is not a requirement, but due to large amounts of applicant they can choose the best.)

We may go on with several jobs in the social sector, elders homes, refugee centers, etc.
Several other terrestrial professions do have even stranger combinations of tasks, also at sea.

BA777FO wrote:
Just FYI, mixed fleet crew at BA, as well as those at easyJet, Ryanair, Norwegian etc earn a basic salary of about £12,000 and allowances bump it up to about £20,000 - less than the UK average wage.


It has been claimed in this forum that in SAS a purser may earn more than a pilot.

BA777FO wrote:
Excessive? Only those who have never done it would ever say that.


How many other jobs have you done to claim that you deserve so much more than those?

BA777FO wrote:
Unsymmetric negotiating power? I haven't had an above inflation payrise since I joined 11 years ago, but I have taken pay cuts and pay freezes. I've also had to give up certain bidding rights and scheduling protections. It's stacked up in the company's favour more than you'll ever know.


At long deflation keeping the pay is a relative increase of salary, when everybody else has huge pay cuts. My last salary was only a third of my salary eleven years earlier and not better than my very first salary, given inflation. And yes, I was "nurse, police officer, waiter, chef" and also customer leader, entertainer and toilet cleaner and was supposed be a firefighter and to lead people in case of emergency evacuation that never happened. I fully recognize that the most important task of a FA is to lead an evacuation, but most cabin staff never have any emergency situation in their career.

BA777FO wrote:
Norwegian going bust would be awful for those that lose jobs but it would help slow down the race to the bottom that companies like this perpetuate.


It would be awful to passengers (and bad for owners and investors whom we do not have to care about) - pilots would find other jobs, as usual. Not everybody, but then another jobless pilot would get a job. Zero sum.

Long live Norwegian.
 
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:14 pm

YIMBY wrote:

BA777FO wrote:
First, a new hire FO at a major airline in Europe will earn about £30,000 -€35,000 as a basic salary in their first year - even less at airlines like Veuling.


In which professions will one earn even close to that in their first year?


Lots and lots of them. Engineering would be an example of a profession where most starting salaries are going to be in that range, with salaries going higher with experience.

My wife had a Masters degree in Geology and her first job out of school was at $48,000 USD, doing geophysical surveys. She could have made significantly above that if she had wanted to work for an oil and gas company, utilizing the same skill set.

A lot of finance jobs start out around those levels, if not higher. Lawyers at “Big Law” firms will make that as fresh out of school associates.

There’s nothing wrong with pilots, who have an expensive and specialized education, demanding salaries similar to other professionals with expensive and specialized education.
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:31 pm

ELBOB wrote:
ABEguy wrote:
Registering their aircraft and employees in what ever country has the least regulatory oversight and lowest labor standards to gain an advantage.


Ireland, UK and Norway are the dregs of the regulatory barrel? I think you'll need to provide some citations for that; generally those countries are considered in the top-tier. Norwegian do have some 737s on the Argentine register now as well but they are a tiny minority.

There's really no getting around regulatory oversight in commercial aviation; you could put all your aircraft on the Guernsey 2-Reg but they stil subscribe to EASA standard. Maybe try VP- registrations, but they align with the UK CAA.

If there was a shortcut then ALL airlines would be doing it, because all airlines are amoral corporations. They don't care about you, me, or Tessa Trolley-Dolly.


I remember the exact information provided by ALPA when the whole battle over “Deny NAI” was going on. If you are saying the following video is inaccurate, I’m willing to listen to your reason

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ju3X4UOVtqw
 
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Wed Dec 26, 2018 8:02 pm

What should captain Sullys salary have been?

Even the best surgeon controls the life of 1 person at a time.

So pilots are never payed too much.

And by the way, many other jobs are payed way too low.
People get taken adventage of by companies shareholders and owners etc.
 
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Wed Dec 26, 2018 8:31 pm

If you knew more about the biggest shareholders, you would realize the biggest owners are playing the long game. They are not the panicky type and have very deep pockets. Even IAG's interest is that Norwegian expands.
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:03 pm

winginit wrote:
c933103 wrote:
What's more important to Norwegian isn't what they're currently facing but what they will face in the future if economy continue to worsen
winginit wrote:

Everything is not tanking 6%+ in one day. Norwegian's decline is very obviously disproportionate to the broader market and aviation sector.

In case you haven't notice, stock price is a reflection of mentality of investors and have no direct relationship with company performance.


That is, of course, complete nonsense. Stock price is driven by investor mentality yes, but institutional investor mentality is driven predominantly by analyst estimates and ratings, which are derived from financial statements.

That financial tidbit aside - state your claim. Mine is that by the end of 2020, Norwegian's long-haul network will be scaled back to the tune of at least 50% if it exists at all.

Can you see the entirety of a company through statements? Institutional investors have better capability to analyze and dig into what's behind those numbers but that is only as far as they can go.
And why should I make any claims about it?
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:12 pm

ABEguy wrote:
You are absolutely wrong about this. You either havent researched why NAI is hated by airline employees, or you’re just simply ignoring it. No one, including myself is against free market competition. What NAI is doing though is not that at all. They’re using the flag of convienence model, an underhanded loophole approach to gain significant cost advantage over other airlines. Registering their aircraft and employees in what ever country has the least regulatory oversight and lowest labor standards to gain an advantage. All you need to do is look at the demise of the US maritime industry to understand the impact of flag of convinence. We don’t want to see our airline industry follow suit. So yes, down with Norwegian!

Bringing competition across the entirety of European Union, isn't it what the economic model of European Union encourage? That benefit economy a lot and is also the reason of its existence, as for cases like US maritime industry that lose out from these competitions, that just mean they are noy efficient enough and not competitive enough?
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:34 pm

ClassicLover wrote:
SKCPH wrote:
Well, there is a reason that Ireland is chosen by multiple big companies as the place to setup European subsidiaries. Practically no taxation and little regulatory hassle. As for airlines I find it telling that they are registered in Ireland, but operate primarily on the continent.


Ireland's corporate tax rate is 12.5%, which is competitive. Other European countries are not far off though - UK will be 17% from 2020, Switzerland is 16.55%, Hungary is 9%, Cyprus 12.5%, to name but a few.

Part of the reason Ireland is selected is due to the English speaking and highly educated workforce, which probably sways it over other European countries (especially Eastern European countries) with lower rates, and of course over the UK, which currently has a 19% rate. That being said, there are always loopholes.



Of course there are several parameters in play when companies choose a location for a domicile. But the fact that some companies managed to negotiate a substantial reduction on their taxes probably weighs heavily.
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Thu Dec 27, 2018 4:24 pm

c933103 wrote:
Can you see the entirety of a company through statements?


Yes - transparency is the very singular point of financial statements.
 
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:06 pm

YIMBY wrote:
I have seen awful employment practices. You probably don't.


That's quite a sweeping statement! This is the problem, airlines like Norwegian get away with awful employment practices and the wider public has no idea. Need to call in sick? Don't get paid. Pressure then gets put on you, with massive training loan debts, to violate the privileges of your licence and the company tries its hardest to get you to report for work when you're unfit to operate. No roster stability - duties changed literally the day before. Pilots at Ryanair on Brookfield contracts get just a week's notice to have to fly overseas for a while having to find their own accommodation and transport for the duration and at their own expense. Threats of disciplinary action for not exercising commander's discretion to extend an FDP are common. Even established airlines in the Middle East are guilty of horrific employment practices to the point where on day it'll result in a serious accident.

Pilots job market will never be even close to similar because there is a very large threshold to get the competence of the pilot and there will never be a flow of job applicants that are ready take the job at any conditions.


You're now starting to understand why pilots are paid more than the average worker. It's not a profession the average worker is capable of doing or has the aptitude to do. I appreciate that is also true of doctors and several other professions but that is why they are paid more. I'd never suggest their pay was "excessive".

If one is found unsuitable, one cannot get a decent job. Medical doctors need some minimal social skills.

It is extremely difficult to enter to study medicine in a university. And after the degree you may have to do low-paid internships to get the license


The same is true of flying. While you might be able to go and buy some flying lessons at many schools, the most prestigous places will require passing stringent checks. And look at how many pilots have to instruct on virtually less than minimum wage to build hours to meet minimum requirements of airlines. You don't just fall out flying school and into the left seat of a 777 on $200,000 a year.

There are other academic careers where a significant fraction do not get a decent job ever. And there are fields where young graduates are fought over but when you are 40 you are thrown out for good.


Gosh that sounds a lot like flying!

In which professions will one earn even close to that in their first year?


This has already been answered by others. Law, engineering, IT, financial services...lots. the difference is, few of them will have $200,000+ in school fees to pay back.

And you're right, trucking is a respectable profession. Just remind me the last time a truck driver had an engine fire at 35,000ft with no where to pull over?

Never heard of Air France, to start with?


The unions at Air France might dig their heels in a little more than at other airlines but that doesn't equate to dictating company strategy. Far from it.

Preschool teacher, to start with. For that you need 3 to 5 years education, compared with a couple of months course for a flight attendant (though many have a previous vocational or even academic degree, but it is not a requirement, but due to large amounts of applicant they can choose the best.)


I guess preschool has changed a lot since I was there. My teacher certainly never cooked and served 300 meals, nor expected to deal with intoxicated adults. There are indeed similarities and you're right, many of the crew I fly with are highly qualified and are flying as cabin crew for a few years to build their CV. But I wouldn't say preschool teachers are overpaid, so why say it of cabin crew? Just remember - they may save your life in the event of an emergency.

It has been claimed in this forum that in SAS a purser may earn more than a pilot.


There you go, proof that pilots really aren't paid enough!

How many other jobs have you done to claim that you deserve so much more than those?


A few. But Indon't need to have been a doctor to know that a consultant heart surgeon deserves to be well paid. If it's so easy and so overpaid being a pilot, why doesn't everyone do it? It's like saying it must be easy playing in the NBA or NFL or being a popstar or a movie actor, surely they must be overpaid? But they're not - they have specialist talents for which a premium is commanded, just like being a pilot.

At long deflation keeping the pay is a relative increase of salary, when everybody else has huge pay cuts. My last salary was only a third of my salary eleven years earlier and not better than my very first salary, given inflation. And yes, I was "nurse, police officer, waiter, chef" and also customer leader, entertainer and toilet cleaner and was supposed be a firefighter and to lead people in case of emergency evacuation that never happened. I fully recognize that the most important task of a FA is to lead an evacuation, but most cabin staff never have any emergency situation in their career.


There you go, you know what it's like to your promised future taken away from you. So why do you wish that on others? I'll never understand that envy. If it's so easy and overpaid being a pilot why not go through flying school?

It would be awful to passengers (and bad for owners and investors whom we do not have to care about) - pilots would find other jobs, as usual. Not everybody, but then another jobless pilot would get a job. Zero sum.

Long live Norwegian.


It would be awful for the passengers requiring to ve repatriated home but ultimatelt it'll be better for passengers to be flying with financially secure airlines that run very little risk of stranding you downroute with nothing to fall back on. It's time this race to the bottom was reversed and people were paid a respectable wage for the important safety-related role they perform. Then again, if you just want anyone, regardless of how suitable they may be for the job, flying you around the skies, I won't be onboard. If risking your life is worth saving £5 over, that's up to you, but I'd rather we were all part of a safety first culture.
 
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:40 am

winginit wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Can you see the entirety of a company through statements?


Yes - transparency is the very singular point of financial statements.

Transparency to the company financial status does not represent the entirety of what it would be facing
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Re: Reuters/Norwegian Media: DY at Risk of Collapse

Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:36 am

hOMSaR wrote:
Faro wrote:

They have secured financing for their aircraft purchases over the first semester of 2019...that in a nutshell tells you everything you need to know...the creditors still have confidence...at least until 30.06.2019...


Faro


It tells me that the creditors have confidence in the fleet having some value (787s are a hot commodity and so if they had to find a new taker, it wouldn’t be too hard). If we knew the terms of the financing, that would say exactly how much confidence the creditors had in Norwegian itself.



Agreed, but it also tells us that the creditors have enough confidence that the leases --in the end and however long that end may be in coming-- will generate more income for them than not. It tells us that they believe that there is a good chance that the leased aircraft will remain with DY over a sufficiently long period to generate lease profits to cover all related repossession costs, aircraft down time and interest, reconfiguration, repainting, re-prospecting for a new lessee, negotiations and contract implementation, etc.

With a USD +200 million asset, time is money. I think they have more confidence than that warranted by the aircraft simply staying with DY over the next six months...


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