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JerseyFlyer
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Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:15 pm

No doubt an opportunistic buy at a good price. But suggests AC are not yet done with the A32x family despite their recent Boeing purchases.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... air-canada
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:20 pm

JerseyFlyer wrote:
No doubt an opportunistic buy at a good price. But suggests AC are not yet done with the A32x family despite their recent Boeing purchases.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... air-canada


And apparently they are for Rouge

https://www.planespotters.net/productio ... tus=future
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:23 pm

Air Canada has been shopping the used market for a few years. They picked up some used A321s through lessors from Air France and Air Berlin. They have also been shopping for used A330s. This in addition to new build A321s through lessors to Rouge and of course the 737MAX. They have sold off or returned to lessors a number of older Embraers, A319s, A320s and A321s as well. Air Canada does move their fleet around a lot.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:57 pm

If WOW had to hook up with Indigo Partners? Then they're either on the road to recovery? Or on the road to Liquidation! in any case? the Reaper is in the House? Or? On the Way!
 
strfyr51
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:59 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
If WOW had to hook up with Indigo Partners? Then they're either on the road to recovery? Or on the road to Liquidation! in any case? the Reaper is in the House? Or? On the Way!

And in case you missed the point? These are Frank Lorenzo types..
 
EChid
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:11 pm

Good move. As was mentioned, AC likes doing this (they did it with the A333s as well) and it's a smart move to keep capital costs low when you've already got them in the fleet. I suspect that the A321 will have a continuing history with AC, despite the MAX purchase, just as with AA. The MAX8/9 and A321 fulfill fairly different niches within the fleet, and they have enough between mainline and Rouge to make keeping the type make sense.

Keep in mind that AC will be A32X family oriented for quite a while. Rouge is made up of a not insignificant number of A319s and A321s.
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whywhyzee
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:18 pm

Rouge was originally slated to get some mainline A320s this year, I wouldn't be surprised to see these frames replace that plan, it lets mainline hold onto capacity that they need, and lets Rouge grow as planned.

Rather than send them to mainline and reconfigure ex mainline A320s to Rouge, this saves them the cost of one round of refits.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:21 pm

That's convenient - the delivery flight will be short.
 
codyul
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:23 pm

All makes sense. I wish they'd nab some 321neo's for mainline and ship some Max's to rouge. But that's just in my fantasy world.
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Newbiepilot
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:23 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
If WOW had to hook up with Indigo Partners? Then they're either on the road to recovery? Or on the road to Liquidation! in any case? the Reaper is in the House? Or? On the Way!

And in case you missed the point? These are Frank Lorenzo types..


Wizzair getting London slots from WOW and selling off the airplanes they can to fundraise makes me think the reaper is in the house liquidating assets. I would expect revenue to plummet with all the uncertainty and route cancellations.

Air Canada is a winner in this story. Being able to move fast is advantageous. They must also be willing to take some risk. I don’t imagine WOW investing a lot in their airplanes.
 
EChid
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:47 pm

codyul wrote:
All makes sense. I wish they'd nab some 321neo's for mainline and ship some Max's to rouge. But that's just in my fantasy world.

I don't think that's out of the question, but the mainline 321s are still newish I believe, so they haven't made a move to replace them. I don't think that the incoming MAX9s will replace the role of the 321s, but I could be wrong. I think AC (both mainline and Rouge) could benefit from a 321LR as well, but that's to be seen.
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EChid
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:50 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
They must also be willing to take some risk. I don’t imagine WOW investing a lot in their airplanes.

I don't think that should be a significant concern. These are planes operating in a developed country to developed countries, all with stringent safety standards. Their maintenance procedures would have been maintained properly since losing certification or developing an unsafe rep would absolutely be the final nail in the coffin.
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whywhyzee
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:53 pm

EChid wrote:
codyul wrote:
All makes sense. I wish they'd nab some 321neo's for mainline and ship some Max's to rouge. But that's just in my fantasy world.

I don't think that's out of the question, but the mainline 321s are still newish I believe, so they haven't made a move to replace them. I don't think that the incoming MAX9s will replace the role of the 321s, but I could be wrong. I think AC (both mainline and Rouge) could benefit from a 321LR as well, but that's to be seen.


I highly doubt the Max 9 will ever see AC colours. They have been progressively delaying those slots or changing the to Max 8s. If I had to guess, they are waiting on the Max 10, and will likely order ~20 to replace the A321s eventually. They have the last remaining Max 9 orders they can convert, in addition to their options.
 
workhorse
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:57 pm

Sorry, I must be missing something, but how Wow can sell anything to Air Canada? They don't own any of their planes, do they?
 
EChid
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:59 pm

whywhyzee wrote:
EChid wrote:
codyul wrote:
All makes sense. I wish they'd nab some 321neo's for mainline and ship some Max's to rouge. But that's just in my fantasy world.

I don't think that's out of the question, but the mainline 321s are still newish I believe, so they haven't made a move to replace them. I don't think that the incoming MAX9s will replace the role of the 321s, but I could be wrong. I think AC (both mainline and Rouge) could benefit from a 321LR as well, but that's to be seen.


I highly doubt the Max 9 will ever see AC colours. They have been progressively delaying those slots or changing the to Max 8s. If I had to guess, they are waiting on the Max 10, and will likely order ~20 to replace the A321s eventually. They have the last remaining Max 9 orders they can convert, in addition to their options.

Interesting...that would make sense, but I do wonder why they would delay if that were the case. Perhaps they're waiting for the MAX10 performance numbers from someone else before making a decision, given that the -10 variants are *really* pushing the 737's abilities as far as upsizing to its limits.
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whywhyzee
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:07 pm

EChid wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:
EChid wrote:
I don't think that's out of the question, but the mainline 321s are still newish I believe, so they haven't made a move to replace them. I don't think that the incoming MAX9s will replace the role of the 321s, but I could be wrong. I think AC (both mainline and Rouge) could benefit from a 321LR as well, but that's to be seen.


I highly doubt the Max 9 will ever see AC colours. They have been progressively delaying those slots or changing the to Max 8s. If I had to guess, they are waiting on the Max 10, and will likely order ~20 to replace the A321s eventually. They have the last remaining Max 9 orders they can convert, in addition to their options.

Interesting...that would make sense, but I do wonder why they would delay if that were the case. Perhaps they're waiting for the MAX10 performance numbers from someone else before making a decision, given that the -10 variants are *really* pushing the 737's abilities as far as upsizing to its limits.


Waiting affords them flexibility, they can always just not make the call of needed. Their A321s are pretty young, so there is no rush. They also likely are shopping around as well, the order should be large enough that a sub fleet wouldn't be any issue, A321Neo is a strong possibility, and a strong rumour, though in my opinion, illogical. They can also wait for the 797, their A321 fleet can easily last that long, and they can always pick up newer ones along the way as evidenced by this deal.

They have taken up a wait and see approach to fleet planning which is seemingly paying off, they have smashed their pax carried record this year and are showing considerable growth. By my estimation, little purchases like this won't stop any time soon. I know id be kicking the tires on some of Norwegian's fleet and the WOW A333s if I were them. They have been successful where many others are currently struggling, so they can afford to pick and choose what makes sense as it becomes available.
 
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:37 pm

EChid wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
They must also be willing to take some risk. I don’t imagine WOW investing a lot in their airplanes.

I don't think that should be a significant concern. These are planes operating in a developed country to developed countries, all with stringent safety standards. Their maintenance procedures would have been maintained properly since losing certification or developing an unsafe rep would absolutely be the final nail in the coffin.


I was referring to more financial risk than safety risk. Airlines in financial duress are less likely to stay on top of reliability upgrades. There also may be structural repairs that may need to be reworked or replaced to avoid repetitive inspections. There may be PMA parts from lower cost vendors or components may be repaired at vendors that dont include OEM upgrades which can affect reliability. Airlines getting planes repossesed also can scavenge life limited parts or parts recently overhauled. Air Canada may end up with planes with completely worn out brakes, tires etc.


Lessors charge maintenance reserves for a reason. Their A321s that came from Air France may be in better condition than WOW or Air Berlin. Everything can be cleaned up and addressed in a thorough C Check, but it may be expensive.
 
beechnut
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Mon Dec 24, 2018 6:07 pm

whywhyzee wrote:

I highly doubt the Max 9 will ever see AC colours. They have been progressively delaying those slots or changing the to Max 8s. If I had to guess, they are waiting on the Max 10, and will likely order ~20 to replace the A321s eventually. They have the last remaining Max 9 orders they can convert, in addition to their options.


I'm inclined to agree that they'll never take up the Max 9s. But I'm not so certain they will opt for the Max 10. I suspect that they are hedging their bets to see what Airbus and Boeing come up with in the near future (321LR etc., MOM/797). In the meantime more used 321s and 333s can take up the slack until the crystal ball becomes clearer.

Beech
 
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Mon Dec 24, 2018 6:29 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
If WOW had to hook up with Indigo Partners? Then they're either on the road to recovery? Or on the road to Liquidation! in any case? the Reaper is in the House? Or? On the Way!

And in case you missed the point? These are Frank Lorenzo types..


That's a little harsh. I don't think they anyone can get F.L. evil.
 
VonRichtofen
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:12 pm

Anybody know if these 321's are containerized or bulk loaded?
 
Speedalive
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:05 pm

I wish we could see some 321's with winglets at mainline. It would look amazing, but looks don't factor into business decision making sadly.. I tend to agree with whywhyzee. They're no doubt waiting to see what's happening with the 797 and developments at Airbus before they go ahead and replace the 321's. Their 321 fleet is new and there will likely be no shortage of ceo's available to AC for fleet replacement or growth should the need arise in the future. It's not a subfleet if you count RV so they will still enjoy fleet commonality when the mainline 319/320' are off the property. I think it would ultimately make sense to order the 737-10 as the upper end narrowbody replacement. AC doesn't really need the NEO for any of the missions that they currently assign to their narrowbodies and I believe the -8 handles the niche transatlantic routes adequately. That all said, the airplanes are very similar in terms of direct operating costs and the 321neo could be just as likely. It'll come down to how many cents the bean counters think they can save with each model at the end of the day... I'm fairly certain that if AC orders the 797, the Max 10 is a given though.
 
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:25 pm

workhorse wrote:
Sorry, I must be missing something, but how Wow can sell anything to Air Canada? They don't own any of their planes, do they?


The deal could be a sale of the aircraft by Vnesheconombank (the bank that currently owns the frames) to Air Canada. Almost all of the planes owned by Vnesheconombank are leased to other airlines in Russia. (These four planes were UTair NTU frames and were possibly sub-leased from UTair) The planes covered under this deal are currently registered TF-MOM, DAD (with sharklets), SON, and KID (without sharklets). WOW air was planning to reduce its fleet to 11 planes. This is apparently that deal...return to Vnesceconombank, who then sells the frames to Air Canada (Air Canada then has to figure how to finance the planes---debt or a sale-leaseback with another lessor).

As for more A330-300s, four TP A333s are bound for AC. As for TF-GAY, I'm surprised that Air Canada isn't all over that frame to try to acquire that plane on lease from its owner, the Industrial and Commercial Bank of China.
 
EChid
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:57 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
As for more A330-300s, four TP A333s are bound for AC. As for TF-GAY, I'm surprised that Air Canada isn't all over that frame to try to acquire that plane on lease from its owner, the Industrial and Commercial Bank of China.

I'm not sure how badly AC needs *more* A333s. They could have purchased more of them from SQ, but didn't. They clearly have decided that 4 was a sufficient number to add.
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debonair
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:45 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
The planes covered under this deal are currently registered TF-MOM, DAD (with sharklets), SON, and KID (without sharklets).


TF-MOM is operating for Aruba Airlines in the moment...
 
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:48 pm

As of now there are no plans to replace the A321s. I read somewhere (can't remember where; it was years ago, definitely over a year before their first MAX delivery) that they were gonna take up the MAX 9 to complement the A321, not replace it, because it was new. Besides it can't match it in capacity, so I'd say the eventual A321 replacement would be either the MAX 10 or the A321neo, even though I'd say the MAX has more of a chance.
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:51 pm

I personally will believe a Max 10 order when I see it, the company has been lukewarm on the -9/10s for a while and prefers the -8. The capacity will have to come from elsewhere I believe whether its a MOM in the future or 321s. That's just my 2 cents based on what I hear at work.
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:37 am

VonRichtofen wrote:
Anybody know if these 321's are containerized or bulk loaded?


I can't speak for all of their A321s, but I saw a picture of a WOW A321 with two belt loaders attached, so I guess that they are bulk loaded.
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SFOtoORD
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:58 am

Good deal for AC on multiple levels. They get more lift and their yields rise because there are fewer WOW ASMs across the Atlantic.
 
NG263
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:55 pm

VonRichtofen wrote:
Anybody know if these 321's are containerized or bulk loaded?


All Wow 320s & 321s are bulk loaded.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:11 pm

NG263 wrote:
VonRichtofen wrote:
Anybody know if these 321's are containerized or bulk loaded?

All Wow 320s & 321s are bulk loaded.

Another narrative dies the death of a thousand cuts.
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:42 pm

Interesting, do Rouge or AC serves Iceland already? If not, I guess they need to fly there soon because of WOW reducing operations.
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INFINITI329
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:53 pm

NG263 wrote:
VonRichtofen wrote:
Anybody know if these 321's are containerized or bulk loaded?


All Wow 320s & 321s are bulk loaded.


I wonder how expensive it is to modtify them and if AC would. I think it would make sense
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:55 pm

SQ789 wrote:
Interesting, do Rouge or AC serves Iceland already? If not, I guess they need to fly there soon because of WOW reducing operations.


I thought they did last year, but I'm not seeing anything as bookable this summer. It not easy keeping up with all the players at KEF.
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Thomaas
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Tue Dec 25, 2018 3:21 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
SQ789 wrote:
Interesting, do Rouge or AC serves Iceland already? If not, I guess they need to fly there soon because of WOW reducing operations.


I thought they did last year, but I'm not seeing anything as bookable this summer. It not easy keeping up with all the players at KEF.


4x/week from YYZ, 3x from YUL, starting again for the season on June 1st.
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Tue Dec 25, 2018 3:25 pm

Thomaas wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
SQ789 wrote:
Interesting, do Rouge or AC serves Iceland already? If not, I guess they need to fly there soon because of WOW reducing operations.


I thought they did last year, but I'm not seeing anything as bookable this summer. It not easy keeping up with all the players at KEF.


4x/week from YYZ, 3x from YUL, starting again for the season on June 1st.


Thanks. I must've chosen all the days it didn't operate.
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CFM565A1
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Tue Dec 25, 2018 3:25 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
NG263 wrote:
VonRichtofen wrote:
Anybody know if these 321's are containerized or bulk loaded?


All Wow 320s & 321s are bulk loaded.


I wonder how expensive it is to modtify them and if AC would. I think it would make sense


Most likely will be made to container load them when they mod them into Rouge planes upon delivery.
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longhauler
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Tue Dec 25, 2018 4:00 pm

Revelation wrote:
NG263 wrote:
VonRichtofen wrote:
Anybody know if these 321's are containerized or bulk loaded?

All Wow 320s & 321s are bulk loaded.

Another narrative dies the death of a thousand cuts.

There is a difference in that it must be bulk loaded or it can be bulk loaded. Just because WOW bulk loaded it, does not mean the containerized capability does not exist.

For example, Air Canada has some A320s which can only be containerized and not bulk loaded, and some that can be both.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
NG263
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Tue Dec 25, 2018 6:39 pm

longhauler wrote:
Revelation wrote:
NG263 wrote:
All Wow 320s & 321s are bulk loaded.

Another narrative dies the death of a thousand cuts.

There is a difference in that it must be bulk loaded or it can be bulk loaded. Just because WOW bulk loaded it, does not mean the containerized capability does not exist.

For example, Air Canada has some A320s which can only be containerized and not bulk loaded, and some that can be both.


Yep that's right. All of these frames are ex-Utair so it depends on what they decided to go with when they ordered them. A quick search on google resulted in a picture showing an Utair 321 being bulk loaded. So it might be possible that these frames were built without a container moving system. But I'm not sure on that. The only thing that I can guarantee is that currently all Wow 321s are bulk loaded but as a few of them were originally built for other customers it might be possible that they have a container moving system built in and that this is covered up. I think I read somewhere that this is possible but I don't quite remember.
 
NG263
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Tue Dec 25, 2018 6:43 pm

Revelation wrote:
NG263 wrote:
VonRichtofen wrote:
Anybody know if these 321's are containerized or bulk loaded?

All Wow 320s & 321s are bulk loaded.

Another narrative dies the death of a thousand cuts.


I'm not an English native speaker so might you explain to me what you want to tell me because I unfortunately don't understand it.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Tue Dec 25, 2018 7:17 pm

NG263 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
NG263 wrote:
All Wow 320s & 321s are bulk loaded.

Another narrative dies the death of a thousand cuts.


I'm not an English native speaker so might you explain to me what you want to tell me because I unfortunately don't understand it.


Keesje has shown pictures of containers being loaded onto Air Canada A321s about a dozen times. He acts surprised that Air Canada is willing to switch from container loading on the A321 to bulk loading on the 737MAX and frequently questions Air Canada’s 737MAX purchase. Air Canada bulk loads A319s, 737-8s and Embraers. I think Revelation is pointing out that the importance of containers on an A321 is overemphasized. Containers are a talking point for people who like the A320 more than the 737. Air Canada acquiring A321s not configured for containers may show that Air Canada doesn’t consider container loading as a significant factor when making purchase decisions.
 
trex8
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Tue Dec 25, 2018 7:40 pm

Is it correct to assume that you can always bulk load a A32x which is fitted for containers without any modification to the floor (even just covering up the loading system) . Or does all the stuff on the floor for the containers make it too difficult. Are there always nets in airframes built to take containers?
 
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Tue Dec 25, 2018 7:43 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
NG263 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Another narrative dies the death of a thousand cuts.


I'm not an English native speaker so might you explain to me what you want to tell me because I unfortunately don't understand it.


Keesje has shown pictures of containers being loaded onto Air Canada A321s about a dozen times. He acts surprised that Air Canada is willing to switch from container loading on the A321 to bulk loading on the 737MAX and frequently questions Air Canada’s 737MAX purchase. Air Canada bulk loads A319s, 737-8s and Embraers. I think Revelation is pointing out that the importance of containers on an A321 is overemphasized. Containers are a talking point for people who like the A320 more than the 737. Air Canada acquiring A321s not configured for containers may show that Air Canada doesn’t consider container loading as a significant factor when making purchase decisions.


The point is though if they didn’t want them container loaded they wouldn’t do it period. If you ask the AC cargo guys, there is still a need for AKH container loading in the AC network however, where I agree with you and Revelatiom about it being overemphasized is that I doubt it makes a difference at Rouge.
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SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Tue Dec 25, 2018 7:43 pm

trex8 wrote:
Is it correct to assume that you can always bulk load a A32x which is fitted for containers without any modification to the floor (even just covering up the loading system) . Or does all the stuff on the floor for the containers make it too difficult. Are there always nets in airframes built to take containers?


I guess your question was in way answered a bit earlier.

longhauler wrote:
For example, Air Canada has some A320s which can only be containerized and not bulk loaded, and some that can be both.
 
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767333ER
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Tue Dec 25, 2018 7:55 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
NG263 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Another narrative dies the death of a thousand cuts.


I'm not an English native speaker so might you explain to me what you want to tell me because I unfortunately don't understand it.


Keesje has shown pictures of containers being loaded onto Air Canada A321s about a dozen times. He acts surprised that Air Canada is willing to switch from container loading on the A321 to bulk loading on the 737MAX and frequently questions Air Canada’s 737MAX purchase. Air Canada bulk loads A319s, 737-8s and Embraers. I think Revelation is pointing out that the importance of containers on an A321 is overemphasized. Containers are a talking point for people who like the A320 more than the 737. Air Canada acquiring A321s not configured for containers may show that Air Canada doesn’t consider container loading as a significant factor when making purchase decisions.

But read what others say and you’ll see that your logic is probably flawed. Just because someone is bulkloading an A321 doesn’t mean it has to be bulk loaded. If the containers were a big waste of time as some 737 apologists make it out to be, they simply would quit using them because nothing is stopping them from using them except for some of the A320s that only can take containers. At Air Canada it saves time on the A320 and A321, but not on the A319 otherwise they wouldn’t do it the way they do. And it would be a big deal that the 737 is only bulk other than that they don’t have a choice to begin with which is what you get when you buy the cheapest option at the time. Containers on these planes is a feature many airlines use, if it was a useless feature and just a talking point no one in the real world would use it.....
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Revelation
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Tue Dec 25, 2018 8:17 pm

767333ER wrote:
But read what others say and you’ll see that your logic is probably flawed. Just because someone is bulkloading an A321 doesn’t mean it has to be bulk loaded. If the containers were a big waste of time as some 737 apologists make it out to be, they simply would quit using them because nothing is stopping them from using them except for some of the A320s that only can take containers. At Air Canada it saves time on the A320 and A321, but not on the A319 otherwise they wouldn’t do it the way they do. And it would be a big deal that the 737 is only bulk other than that they don’t have a choice to begin with which is what you get when you buy the cheapest option at the time. Containers on these planes is a feature many airlines use, if it was a useless feature and just a talking point no one in the real world would use it.....

Speaking of hyperbole, please find us a quote where "737 apologists" say containers are "a big waste of time".

What actually is being said is they come with pluses and minuses, and the fact that AC buys 737s that do not support containers shows they aren't a deal breaker.

The fact that the plane is cheaper leads us to one of the plusses, unless you're suggesting corporations prefer to pay more for aircraft.

They also remove the weight of the containers themselves along with the handling system, and they make it possible to service airports that do not have container facilities.

So there are some customers who prefer aircraft set up to do bulk loading, including some A321 customers, as this thread shows.
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YVRda
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:32 pm

The 737MAX is doing very very well at AC. I don’t think we will see them leave the mainline fleet anytime in the feature.. the amount of new thin overseas routes they’ve been able to add has been incredible:
YVR-LIH
YVR-OGG 2x daily
YVR-HNL 2x daily
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Mainline wouldn’t be able to do these new routes without the 737MAX
 
LewisNEO
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:41 am

Revelation wrote:
767333ER wrote:
But read what others say and you’ll see that your logic is probably flawed. Just because someone is bulkloading an A321 doesn’t mean it has to be bulk loaded. If the containers were a big waste of time as some 737 apologists make it out to be, they simply would quit using them because nothing is stopping them from using them except for some of the A320s that only can take containers. At Air Canada it saves time on the A320 and A321, but not on the A319 otherwise they wouldn’t do it the way they do. And it would be a big deal that the 737 is only bulk other than that they don’t have a choice to begin with which is what you get when you buy the cheapest option at the time. Containers on these planes is a feature many airlines use, if it was a useless feature and just a talking point no one in the real world would use it.....

Speaking of hyperbole, please find us a quote where "737 apologists" say containers are "a big waste of time".

What actually is being said is they come with pluses and minuses, and the fact that AC buys 737s that do not support containers shows they aren't a deal breaker.

The fact that the plane is cheaper leads us to one of the plusses, unless you're suggesting corporations prefer to pay more for aircraft.

They also remove the weight of the containers themselves along with the handling system, and they make it possible to service airports that do not have container facilities.

So there are some customers who prefer aircraft set up to do bulk loading, including some A321 customers, as this thread shows.



Exactly, and that is why the A321 is such a flexible aircraft and especially for AC, which bulk loads and uses containers for cargo/bags. It depends on more factors if a feature is a dealbreaker, there is so much more at buying an aircraft, even more than the purchase price. Its (operational) costs drivers and features with regard to the purpose of use are among those. The A321 series is quite an impressive aircraft that hits a very sweet spot that is not easy to beat at the moment.

I guess 76733ER tries to say is that there are some discussions which are colored by personal taste or political view. To a certain extend, there is nothing wrong with that, as long as argument relates to the actual contents. I wouldn't use the word apologist though. Makes it sound like a religious matter... :white:
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whywhyzee
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:06 pm

Bag loading aside, I wouldn’t be shocked to see these frames get so,e domestic work in combination with traditional rouge routes. Destinations like YQB and YYG have benefitted from moving to larger jets or Q’s, and I imagine more could follow.

Sidebar, I just did a 5.5hr segment in a Rouge A319 in Y, and I’ve done 9 hours in the 767, also in Y, no complaints whatsoever, I think it’s pretty fair that the Rouge product is realistically not different from most other offerings, so I say, keep the expansion going.
 
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keesje
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:04 pm

Btw, iare the 4 A321s are for main line Air Canada, or Rouge. I see contradicting info.

Image
Picture : https://www.mro-network.com
Last edited by keesje on Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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whywhyzee
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Re: Air Canada to buy 4 A321s from WoW

Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:13 pm

keesje wrote:
Btw, it seems the 4 A321s are for main line Air Canada, not Rouge.

Image
Picture : https://www.mro-network.com


Where is this information coming from, the link doesn't mention anything from what I can see, and the picture is of a pre-existing AC A321.

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