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LY777
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El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:29 am

Hi
The 744s will soon exit El Al’s fleet.
Thus, the biggest a/c type they will have in their fleet will be the 772.
I understand that they could increase frequencies, but on the busiest routes (JFK, LHR, CDG), wouldn’t it be important for them to get a bigger a/c than the 772?
779X maybe?

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parapente
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:44 am

Don't know much about the airline ( other than they are a lesson to other smaller countries on how to run an airline).
But if as you say the 744's are just about to leave operations and no replacement ( of that size) has been bought,then it looks like a concrete decision to down size to more economic aircaft. Otherwise they would have bought an aircaft to replace them 3/4 years ago in the normal planning cycle.
 
TC957
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:45 am

I always thought a few 748i's would suit LY, but get the point that they probably cant afford them. From what I gather their JFK flights is always packed so it's not for lack of loads that the 748i wouldn't come in useful.
 
BrianWilkes
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:44 am

ELAL after the 747...........business as usual I would say, no big deal!
 
rutankrd
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:05 am

LY777 the 744 hasn’t been regularly scheduled on Heathrow runs for much/most of this year 2018 . They are however to be scheduled for about two or three flights a week in summer 2019 when the 789 take over some of the remaining 763 longer haul flying.

Currently the 744s fly to and from JFK and Bangkok in the main and are exceptional rarely used into Europe these days.

The most frequent Heathrow visitors are the 77E as these retain 6 first class and a drop of just 9 business class seats compared the the queen and 789 on at least one flight a day.

Admittedly they lose over a hundred in steerage ( not a particularly pleasent place on El Al to be honesh soft product era is 1980 !) however those in steerage get sold and routed through Luton when ever possible.

Paris is a mix of 789 and 739 these days.

The future is the 787 Dreamliner though and that means ditching those 6 first class seats ( probably a good move -it’s frequently wasted space these days) and i’d not be surprised in the least to see an order 4 or 5 78J models pretty soon.

Just don’t see the 77x or 748 as good candidates in a rather small fleet that is EL AL long haul today -Where range and performance is required the 789 is already deployed notably Pacific Coast USA.

To me the best options for EL AL in the next decade is to move to effectively just two sub fleets built round the 737 max series and the 787 ranges (all three sizes can effectively replace the existing 763/77E and 744 imho).

Nothing else; No 77x or Airbuses even though the 359/35J might well fit quite nicely as 744 longer haul replacements imho
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:22 am

Are these the old Singapore aircraft they bought or did they go ages back? :old:
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DL757NYC
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:45 am

TC957 wrote:
I always thought a few 748i's would suit LY, but get the point that they probably cant afford them. From what I gather their JFK flights is always packed so it's not for lack of loads that the 748i wouldn't come in useful.



TLV JFK is packed everyday and the tickets are expensive. Delta down gauged to a 777.
 
rutankrd
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:57 am

READING All 4 passenger frames remaining in service were new build direct deliveries to EL-AL 4X- ELA AND ELB IN 1994 , ELC in 1995 whilst ELD didn’t arrive 1999 did a short lease out to a Nigerian carrier in 2009/10 for pilgrim flights though.

The only on fleet used frame is freighter 4X-ELF which is ex Singapore Cargo and flies the flower and Vegetables shuttles between Tel Aviv And Liege on a near daily basis.

Associate Cargo Airline flies two further ex Singapore and two ex EVA freighters.
 
EL-AL
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:03 pm

El Al is doing what most airlines are doing - replacing B744s busy routes for long and thin routes operated by more efficient airplanes, like the 787. El Al will indeed loose capacity in the JFK route, but the airline is adding new direct flights to the US (LAS & SFO) with 787, in addition to other US destinations opened in last few years that are moving from 772s to 787s - MIA & BOS (LAX also moved to 787). The 747 (-400 or -8) is to big for El Al nowdays, and apart from the JFK route it is difficult to fill. First class will be eliminated as soon as the last 747 leave in October (777 will be reconfigured gradually I assume) and eventually, with the 777 fleet not getting any younger too (frames built from 2001 to 2007), the airline will operate only 787 and 737 in the fleet. If the 748 and 779 is too big for much larger airlines, for sure those are to big for pretty small airline like El Al.
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ly204
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:12 pm

rutankrd wrote:
To me the best options for EL AL in the next decade is to move to effectively just two sub fleets built round the 737 max series and the 787 ranges (all three sizes can effectively replace the existing 763/77E and 744 imho).

Nothing else; No 77x or Airbuses even though the 359/35J might well fit quite nicely as 744 longer haul replacements imho


I think this assertion of two subfleets makes sense...with that being said, I’d ask the following:

(1) Would the 787-10 make sense for El Al? Would the loss of range limit El Al’s use of the aircraft to just the eastern most coast of the US?

(2) I don’t believe El Al has purchased the 737-MAX as of yet. They have a relatively new sub fleet of 737-900ERs. Would they be better served in the coming decade buying the MOM aircraft for Europe/India operations?
 
rutankrd
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:18 pm

TCX AND. DL757 Constraining capacity and avoiding the need to price dump on the consolidators whilst realising good loads charging realistic and indeed high prices for rather average service is the probably the above standard in yield potential for this industry !

Why make your business more difficult than it needs be by diluting that yield potential in anyway whatsoever.

As I suggested getting the 78J with cockpit commonality, further yield management potential and significant operational cost savings partulary on the New York run even adding in a small 6 or 8 first section ( not offered in the 789 fleets) and those 40ish business seats. Further constrain the Economy capacity and maintain margin and yields across the board really is business gold !
 
rutankrd
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:50 pm

LY204 The 78J is pretty much optimised for such route distances as Tel Aviv -JFK and specifically Tel Aviv to Western Europe - it is THE vehicle for these tasks at the moment.

MOM remains vaperous gas and talk at the moment and probably well into the second half of the 2020s imho.

Noted several of the 739s are only 3 to 6 years old whilst the 738 core fleet are already 10 to 20 years old including a few used examples from UK leisure carriers deployed within their Tour and Flexible fares divisions which may well have significant frame cycles today.

It is these and the very few 737-700 already removed and that I am thinking will need replacing with the Max range pretty soon .

The Mumbai route will fit with the 789 and a potential 78J order imho and if hell freezes and Saudi suddenly allow over flights going East then the game play completely changes doesn’t it ?

Again it just doesn’t make sense for anything larger than the 78J or A359 in my opinion
 
ly204
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:01 pm

rutankrd wrote:
LY204 The 78J is pretty much optimised for such route distances as Tel Aviv -JFK and specifically Tel Aviv to Western Europe - it is THE vehicle for these tasks at the moment.

MOM remains vaperous gas and talk at the moment and probably well into the second half of the 2020s imho.

Noted several of the 739s are only 3 to 6 years old whilst the 738 core fleet are already 10 to 20 years old including a few used examples from UK leisure carriers deployed within their Tour and Flexible fares divisions which may well have significant frame cycles today.

It is these and the very few 737-700 already removed and that I am thinking will need replacing with the Max range pretty soon .


Glad to hear that 78Js are well suited for JFK-TLV flying. I know that LY is bound to Boeing, but part of me would love to see LY move from 737-800/-900s to the more comfortable/capable A320/321neos (more comfortable/capable that the MAXs imo). I’m sure it will never happen, however...
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:37 pm

Why is the new livery on the 787 so bad?

My god the tail makes me cringe!

That aside, how about a few used 380s specifically for JFK? Seems their style and no one seems to want them...id imagine theyd get a deal
 
EBJ68
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:43 pm

Given that El Al is downsizing from the 747, or so it seems, the A380 wouldn't get a glance from them, I suspect.
 
lifecomm
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:03 pm

EL-AL wrote:
El Al is doing what most airlines are doing - replacing B744s busy routes for long and thin routes operated by more efficient airplanes, like the 787. El Al will indeed loose capacity in the JFK route, but the airline is adding new direct flights to the US (LAS & SFO) with 787, in addition to other US destinations opened in last few years that are moving from 772s to 787s - MIA & BOS (LAX also moved to 787). The 747 (-400 or -8) is to big for El Al nowdays, and apart from the JFK route it is difficult to fill. First class will be eliminated as soon as the last 747 leave in October (777 will be reconfigured gradually I assume) and eventually, with the 777 fleet not getting any younger too (frames built from 2001 to 2007), the airline will operate only 787 and 737 in the fleet. If the 748 and 779 is too big for much larger airlines, for sure those are to big for pretty small airline like El Al.

Correct
 
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yochai
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:40 pm

772's are moving from 280 pax F+J+Y to 320 pax J+PE+Y (Y goes to 3-4-3) and recieve new cabins similar to the 787 cabins. They will be used on the trunk routes to JFK/BKK/LHR/CDG. NYC is porjected to be running up to 6 daily during summer 2020 with a mix of 787 and 777. New North American routes will also drive connecting traffic away from NYC freeing up seats for the much needed O&D traffic. 737's will also recieve cabin upgrades strating this winter, with new slimline seats and additional capacity as well as new bigger bins, mood lights etc...
 
ly204
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:47 pm

yochai wrote:
772's are moving from 280 pax F+J+Y to 320 pax J+PE+Y (Y goes to 3-4-3) and recieve new cabins similar to the 787 cabins. They will be used on the trunk routes to JFK/BKK/LHR/CDG. NYC is porjected to be running up to 6 daily during summer 2020 with a mix of 787 and 777. New North American routes will also drive connecting traffic away from NYC freeing up seats for the much needed O&D traffic. 737's will also recieve cabin upgrades strating this winter, with new slimline seats and additional capacity as well as new bigger bins, mood lights etc...


Thanks, Yochai. Do you anticipate LY topping up their 787 order (78J) or perhaps getting a few 777Xs (or maybe even some discounted 773ERs)?
 
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yochai
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:54 pm

ly204 wrote:
yochai wrote:
772's are moving from 280 pax F+J+Y to 320 pax J+PE+Y (Y goes to 3-4-3) and recieve new cabins similar to the 787 cabins. They will be used on the trunk routes to JFK/BKK/LHR/CDG. NYC is porjected to be running up to 6 daily during summer 2020 with a mix of 787 and 777. New North American routes will also drive connecting traffic away from NYC freeing up seats for the much needed O&D traffic. 737's will also recieve cabin upgrades strating this winter, with new slimline seats and additional capacity as well as new bigger bins, mood lights etc...


Thanks, Yochai. Do you anticipate LY topping up their 787 order (78J) or perhaps getting a few 777Xs (or maybe even some discounted 773ERs)?



777X or 77W are probably out of question for LY as it looks to standardize around a singe engine type (RR). 78J would be a prefect fit for the busy routes but I can't see LY orderign any more aircraft in the next couple of years due to financing.
 
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:40 pm

Why can't they purchase 3 new 77W to serve JFK?
 
rutankrd
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:05 pm

blacksoviet clearly you haven’t ready the previous comments from various people as to why El Al have little to no requirement for the 77w or even less for the 77x when they are clearly attempting to standardise round just a very few frame types whilst maintaining margin and yield.

Although Yochai makes a valid point about the financial and investment issues that El Al faces particularly from the on and off government privatisation process that is without doubt affecting current and mid term funding decisions ,the 78J really is the perfectly optimised 744 replacement, with operating cost savings including just two cockpit crews within the entire fleet, maintenance costs their size and economy wise, Oh and a single engine supplier on their long haul fleet as well.
Further some intentional capacity caps are a very good thing for El ALs bottom line as is removal of the small first class seating areas . Wasn’t aware of this being removed from the remaining 77e but it’s certainly logical these days.
So many once first class customers use more personal and fractional transport methods today including rather locally assembled aeroplanes !
Last edited by rutankrd on Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:07 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Why is the new livery on the 787 so bad?

My god the tail makes me cringe!


I think it looks quite modern (a word El Al didn't really have in it's vocabulary prior to this). The stylized Magen David (star of David) on the tail and multiple shades of blue make it stand out. Prior to that, the plane was mostly white with a monotone blue stripe around the fuselage.
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ly204
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:08 pm

yochai wrote:
ly204 wrote:
yochai wrote:
772's are moving from 280 pax F+J+Y to 320 pax J+PE+Y (Y goes to 3-4-3) and recieve new cabins similar to the 787 cabins. They will be used on the trunk routes to JFK/BKK/LHR/CDG. NYC is porjected to be running up to 6 daily during summer 2020 with a mix of 787 and 777. New North American routes will also drive connecting traffic away from NYC freeing up seats for the much needed O&D traffic. 737's will also recieve cabin upgrades strating this winter, with new slimline seats and additional capacity as well as new bigger bins, mood lights etc...


Thanks, Yochai. Do you anticipate LY topping up their 787 order (78J) or perhaps getting a few 777Xs (or maybe even some discounted 773ERs)?



777X or 77W are probably out of question for LY as it looks to standardize around a singe engine type (RR). 78J would be a prefect fit for the busy routes but I can't see LY orderign any more aircraft in the next couple of years due to financing.


I’m sure you’re right but it would be nice to see them with the 78J for the NY flights. I took an AC 787 to TLV last year — flight was great but the capacity seemed small. Also, has LY already made financial commitments to retrofit their existing airframes? It would be great to see them have a consistent high quality hard product across their fleet.
 
LY777
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:43 pm

If the 772s get a proper refurbishment, there is no urgent need to withdraw them from the fleet.
Knowing LY, they will keep them another 10 years
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FlightLevel360
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:52 pm

DL757NYC wrote:
TC957 wrote:
I always thought a few 748i's would suit LY, but get the point that they probably cant afford them. From what I gather their JFK flights is always packed so it's not for lack of loads that the 748i wouldn't come in useful.



TLV JFK is packed everyday and the tickets are expensive. Delta down gauged to a 777.


They down gauged it even more - it's an A330-300 now IIRC. TLV-NYC has way too much capacity these days. So not surprising that LY would want to operate less seats on this route.
To me, it will always be:
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- MITSUBUSHI MRJ

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klakzky123
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:56 pm

FlightLevel360 wrote:
DL757NYC wrote:
TC957 wrote:
I always thought a few 748i's would suit LY, but get the point that they probably cant afford them. From what I gather their JFK flights is always packed so it's not for lack of loads that the 748i wouldn't come in useful.



TLV JFK is packed everyday and the tickets are expensive. Delta down gauged to a 777.


They down gauged it even more - it's an A330-300 now IIRC. TLV-NYC has way too much capacity these days. So not surprising that LY would want to operate less seats on this route.


Plus LY has a dominant foothold on a key portion of the TLV-NYC market (the Haredi/Orthodox travelers). LY can lower capacity and increase yields in the process. No one ever has an issue filling seats on TLV-NYC but some capacity management could probably help LY. The Haredi travelers aren't about to switch to another airline.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:59 pm

parapente wrote:
Don't know much about the airline ( other than they are a lesson to other smaller countries on how to run an airline).
But if as you say the 744's are just about to leave operations and no replacement ( of that size) has been bought,then it looks like a concrete decision to down size to more economic aircaft. Otherwise they would have bought an aircaft to replace them 3/4 years ago in the normal planning cycle.

The reality is there are only so many premium passengers on that 744. If they are accommodated, the spill over to hubs is low yield and not worth pursuing.

To others:
A planned decision to persue yield via frequency, fragmentation, and right sizing is wise. It is a good thing to go to more economical aircraft.

Lightsaber
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DL777200LR
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 5:20 pm

FlightLevel360 wrote:
DL757NYC wrote:
TC957 wrote:
I always thought a few 748i's would suit LY, but get the point that they probably cant afford them. From what I gather their JFK flights is always packed so it's not for lack of loads that the 748i wouldn't come in useful.



TLV JFK is packed everyday and the tickets are expensive. Delta down gauged to a 777.


They down gauged it even more - it's an A330-300 now IIRC. TLV-NYC has way too much capacity these days. So not surprising that LY would want to operate less seats on this route.


DLs 777 and 333s have the same seating capacity.
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FlightLevel360
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:26 pm

DL777200LR wrote:
FlightLevel360 wrote:
DL757NYC wrote:


TLV JFK is packed everyday and the tickets are expensive. Delta down gauged to a 777.


They down gauged it even more - it's an A330-300 now IIRC. TLV-NYC has way too much capacity these days. So not surprising that LY would want to operate less seats on this route.


DLs 777 and 333s have the same seating capacity.


But the A330 has far inferior cargo capacity.
To me, it will always be:
- Bombardier CSeries
- Airbus A321neoLR and A321neoXLR
- EMBRACER ERJ-170, ERJ-175, ERJ-190, and ERJ-195
- MITSUBUSHI MRJ

Anti narrowbody-long range-twinjet gang. Long live the A380 and 747!
 
blue100
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:46 pm

FlightLevel360 wrote:
DL757NYC wrote:
TC957 wrote:
I always thought a few 748i's would suit LY, but get the point that they probably cant afford them. From what I gather their JFK flights is always packed so it's not for lack of loads that the 748i wouldn't come in useful.



TLV JFK is packed everyday and the tickets are expensive. Delta down gauged to a 777.


They down gauged it even more - it's an A330-300 now IIRC. TLV-NYC has way too much capacity these days. So not surprising that LY would want to operate less seats on this route.


I'm willing to bet that the down-gauge for DL has less to do with over-capacity and more to do with aircraft utilization. DL used to use the 777 to NRT and TLV from JFK. Once NRT was cut, they only had TLV left and DL had to cycle 777's to JFK from ATL. It doesn't make much sense to run 777's every day between ATL and JFK for the sole purpose of flying one daily flight when you have a plane (A330) with similar capacity and many more frames available at JFK.

In addition, DL will be adding another daily flight to TLV for spring 2019 so it seems that there is still plenty of demand for seats out of NY.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:56 pm

FlightLevel360 wrote:
DL757NYC wrote:
TC957 wrote:
I always thought a few 748i's would suit LY, but get the point that they probably cant afford them. From what I gather their JFK flights is always packed so it's not for lack of loads that the 748i wouldn't come in useful.



TLV JFK is packed everyday and the tickets are expensive. Delta down gauged to a 777.


They down gauged it even more - it's an A330-300 now IIRC. TLV-NYC has way too much capacity these days. So not surprising that LY would want to operate less seats on this route.


DL A333s have more seats than the B77E did pre-refitting. As for LY, a B78X with about 340 seats in J-W-Y+-Y would make great sense for routes like BKK and JFK. The B788 order should be converted to B78X. (In another thread, I surmised what a 337-seat map would look like.) UA is upgrading to a B78X and B77W. Most TLV-NYC traffic is O&D.
 
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N62NA
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 8:07 pm

yochai wrote:
772's are moving from 280 pax F+J+Y to 320 pax J+PE+Y (Y goes to 3-4-3)



This was my first thought as soon as I read the title of this topic. Surprised it took 17 replies before someone mentioned this.
 
ImperialEagle
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:15 pm

What about charters and potential mass immigration?

Will the T7's step in with a high density configuration or will a few 744's be kept ready to go?
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jerseyewr777
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:35 pm

yochai wrote:
772's are moving from 280 pax F+J+Y to 320 pax J+PE+Y (Y goes to 3-4-3) and recieve new cabins similar to the 787 cabins. They will be used on the trunk routes to JFK/BKK/LHR/CDG. NYC is porjected to be running up to 6 daily during summer 2020 with a mix of 787 and 777. New North American routes will also drive connecting traffic away from NYC freeing up seats for the much needed O&D traffic. 737's will also recieve cabin upgrades strating this winter, with new slimline seats and additional capacity as well as new bigger bins, mood lights etc...


NYC 6 daily in 2020 a combination of both JFK & EWR?
 
aviationaware
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:32 am

El Al is a financial disaster due to their (even for me as a Jew) ridiculous rule not to fly on Shabbat. They should be focussing on yield maximization rather than matching demand and capacity. Downsizing aircraft is the smartest thing they could do.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:44 am

The 744s can't leave fast enough. In this low fuel price environment, higher-density updated 772s will do fine on New York and London until Boeing starts discounting 787-10s a bit more, at which point an El Al 787-10 order will make financial sense. In the long run an all-787 widebody fleet could reduce operating costs by well over a third (!) compared with the Old Fleet of 762/772/744. A few bargain Y seats aren't worth that difference.
 
juliuswong
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Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:46 am

readytotaxi wrote:
Are these the old Singapore aircraft they bought or did they go ages back? :old:

Those ex-Singapore Airlines B744 pax has left the fleet sometime back.

MSN 26551/ LN 1045 Boeing 747-412 4X-ELE, ex-SQ 9V-SPB withdrawn from use in TLV Dec 2017


MSN 26555/ LN 1075 Boeing 747-412 4X-ELH, ex-SQ 9V-SPH scrapped in TLV May 2018.


MSN 27132/ LN 955 Boeing 747-412 4X-ELS, ex-SQ 9V-SMQ went to Cathay Pacific as B-HKT in 2007, scrapped in VCV 2017

This might be B-HKT back in 2017 although the real identity is unknown.

The remaining B744 pax in service are all LY's metal, oldest one 25 years old now:
LN 1027 4X-ELA
LN 1032 4X-ELB
LN 1062 4X-ELC
LN 1215 4X-ELD

Freighter only, ex-SQ 9V-SFA :
LN 1036 4X-ELF

Source: https://www.planespotters.net/airline/E ... l-Airlines
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
MalevTU134
Posts: 2188
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:57 am

juliuswong wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
Are these the old Singapore aircraft they bought or did they go ages back? :old:

Those ex-Singapore Airlines B744 pax has left the fleet sometime back.

MSN 26551/ LN 1045 Boeing 747-412 4X-ELE, ex-SQ 9V-SPB withdrawn from use in TLV Dec 2017


MSN 26555/ LN 1075 Boeing 747-412 4X-ELH, ex-SQ 9V-SPH scrapped in TLV May 2018.


MSN 27132/ LN 955 Boeing 747-412 4X-ELS, ex-SQ 9V-SMQ went to Cathay Pacific as B-HKT in 2007, scrapped in VCV 2017

This might be B-HKT back in 2017 although the real identity is unknown.

The remaining B744 pax in service are all LY's metal, oldest one 25 years old now:
LN 1027 4X-ELA
LN 1032 4X-ELB
LN 1062 4X-ELC
LN 1215 4X-ELD

Freighter only, ex-SQ 9V-SFA :
LN 1036 4X-ELF

Source: https://www.planespotters.net/airline/E ... l-Airlines

Is there a last day in service for these last 4 pax 744s?
 
juliuswong
Posts: 2021
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:45 am

Most recent update:
El Al Israel Airlines in recent schedule update filed Boeing 747-400 operation to Europe for summer 2019 season. As of 31JUL18, planned Boeing 747-400 service between April and August 2019 as follows.

Tel Aviv – London Heathrow LY315/316 Check again
25APR19 (27APR19 from LHR as LY318)
17JUN19 – 17JUL19 Day 13
18JUL19 – 29AUG19 Day 134

Source: https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... f-31jul18/

Not sure if this still stands, as previously it was stated that the last B744 pax flight would be BKK-TLV 30/31 March 2019. This has changed after one of their B763ER (4X-EAK) went busted due to ground collision. (https://aeronauticsonline.com/el-al-sch ... 7-in-2019/)

Yochai, one of our respected members here previously stated this:
B747-400 and B767-300 fleet will be retired as follows:
B747-400
4X-ELA September 2018
4X-ELB October 2018
4X-ELD January 2019
4X-ELC June 2019
4X-ELF (Freighter) July 2019

B767-300
4X-EAP July 2019
4X-EAJ September 2019
4X-EAK December 2019
4X-EAR March 2020
4X-EAM May 2020
4X-EAN August 2020
4X-EAL November 2020

If the fleet retirement is correct as per Yochai's information, then it will fit in nicely with the routeonline information stated above.
Last edited by juliuswong on Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
MalevTU134
Posts: 2188
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:55 am

juliuswong wrote:
Most recent update:
El Al Israel Airlines in recent schedule update filed Boeing 747-400 operation to Europe for summer 2019 season. As of 31JUL18, planned Boeing 747-400 service between April and August 2019 as follows.

Tel Aviv – London Heathrow LY315/316 Check again
25APR19 (27APR19 from LHR as LY318)
17JUN19 – 17JUL19 Day 13
18JUL19 – 29AUG19 Day 134

Source: https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... f-31jul18/

Not sure if this still stands, as previously it was stated that the last B744 pax flight would be BKK-TLV 30/31 March 2019. This has changed after one of their B763ER (4X-EAK) went busted due to ground collision. (https://aeronauticsonline.com/el-al-sch ... 7-in-2019/)

Yochai, one of our respected members here previously stated this:
B747-400 and B767-300 fleet will be retired as follows:
B747-400
4X-ELA September 2018
4X-ELB October 2018
4X-ELD January 2019
4X-ELC June 2019
4X-ELF (Freighter) July 2019

B767-300
4X-EAP July 2019
4X-EAJ September 2019
4X-EAK December 2019
4X-EAR March 2020
4X-EAM May 2020
4X-EAN August 2020
4X-EAL November 2020

If the fleet retirement is correct as per Yaochai's information, then it will fit in nicely with the routeonline information stated above.

Thank you very much indeed for the info!! For ELA and ELB, I guess you mean 2019?
Do you know how long the 744s will serve JFK?
 
questions
Posts: 2338
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:11 am

Is JFK-TLV premium heavy?

What drives demand TLV-BKK? Vacationers/ holiday-makers?
 
DaveFly
Posts: 386
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:35 pm

Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:27 am

Well, I’ve been on all El Al’s longhaul aircraft in the last decade, and I’ll miss the 747.

The 747/767s were long-in-the-tooth, but they were comfortable. I’m sorry to hear that the 777 is going 3-4-3, but it was inevitable. I just flew El Al’s 787 in October. I thought it was very cramped, but that’s the price you pay for 3-3-3.
717,727,737,747,757,767,777,787
L1011,DC8,DC9,DC10,MD80/90
A300,A319,320,321,330,340,
CRJ,E135/45/190,
DH8,Avro85,DHBeaver,AstarHelo,F100,ATR42
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3135
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Thu Dec 27, 2018 4:47 am

aviationaware wrote:
El Al is a financial disaster due to their (even for me as a Jew) ridiculous rule not to fly on Shabbat. They should be focussing on yield maximization rather than matching demand and capacity. Downsizing aircraft is the smartest thing they could do.

Respecting the standards of the religion of Israel as the main carrier of the country is not ridiculous.
 
LY777
Topic Author
Posts: 2572
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:58 pm

Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:26 am

juliuswong wrote:
Most recent update:
El Al Israel Airlines in recent schedule update filed Boeing 747-400 operation to Europe for summer 2019 season. As of 31JUL18, planned Boeing 747-400 service between April and August 2019 as follows.

Tel Aviv – London Heathrow LY315/316 Check again
25APR19 (27APR19 from LHR as LY318)
17JUN19 – 17JUL19 Day 13
18JUL19 – 29AUG19 Day 134

Source: https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... f-31jul18/

Not sure if this still stands, as previously it was stated that the last B744 pax flight would be BKK-TLV 30/31 March 2019. This has changed after one of their B763ER (4X-EAK) went busted due to ground collision. (https://aeronauticsonline.com/el-al-sch ... 7-in-2019/)

Yochai, one of our respected members here previously stated this:
B747-400 and B767-300 fleet will be retired as follows:
B747-400
4X-ELA September 2018
4X-ELB October 2018
4X-ELD January 2019
4X-ELC June 2019
4X-ELF (Freighter) July 2019

B767-300
4X-EAP July 2019
4X-EAJ September 2019
4X-EAK December 2019
4X-EAR March 2020
4X-EAM May 2020
4X-EAN August 2020
4X-EAL November 2020

If the fleet retirement is correct as per Yochai's information, then it will fit in nicely with the routeonline information stated above.


Juiliuswong, fleet plans have changed.
LY will keep the 744s longer than expected while the 763s will go sooner.
Now, LY has only 3 763s in their fleet.
Yochai could confirm this :)
Flown:717,727,732,733,734,735,738,73H,742/744/748,752,753,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, 789, DC8,DC10,E190,E195,MD83,MD88, L1011, A3B2,A319,A320-100/200,A321,A332/A333,A343,A388
 
juliuswong
Posts: 2021
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:56 am

LY777 wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
Most recent update:
El Al Israel Airlines in recent schedule update filed Boeing 747-400 operation to Europe for summer 2019 season. As of 31JUL18, planned Boeing 747-400 service between April and August 2019 as follows.

Tel Aviv – London Heathrow LY315/316 Check again
25APR19 (27APR19 from LHR as LY318)
17JUN19 – 17JUL19 Day 13
18JUL19 – 29AUG19 Day 134

Source: https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... f-31jul18/

Not sure if this still stands, as previously it was stated that the last B744 pax flight would be BKK-TLV 30/31 March 2019. This has changed after one of their B763ER (4X-EAK) went busted due to ground collision. (https://aeronauticsonline.com/el-al-sch ... 7-in-2019/)

Yochai, one of our respected members here previously stated this:
B747-400 and B767-300 fleet will be retired as follows:
B747-400
4X-ELA September 2018
4X-ELB October 2018
4X-ELD January 2019
4X-ELC June 2019
4X-ELF (Freighter) July 2019

B767-300
4X-EAP July 2019
4X-EAJ September 2019
4X-EAK December 2019
4X-EAR March 2020
4X-EAM May 2020
4X-EAN August 2020
4X-EAL November 2020

If the fleet retirement is correct as per Yochai's information, then it will fit in nicely with the routeonline information stated above.


Juiliuswong, fleet plans have changed.
LY will keep the 744s longer than expected while the 763s will go sooner.
Now, LY has only 3 763s in their fleet.
Yochai could confirm this :)

Thank you for the information, LY777. Yes indeed. Like what I have mentioned in my earlier post the information is based on what Yochai mentioned few months ago. Maybe even before 4X-EAK met her untimely death since it was scheduled to retire in Dec 2019. As usual, airline will change their fleet planning accordingly due to various reasons, unless we have privy to insider's information, we can only rely on third party information.

Planespotters.net records four B763ER operating for LY (4X-EAJ, EAL, EAM, EAN), have they retire another one of ?

I was wondering if LY can accelerate 787 delivery to replace their B744 and B763ER. Since B744 is staying longer than usual, I would think a cabin refresh is justifiable.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2858
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:27 am

b747400erf wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
El Al is a financial disaster due to their (even for me as a Jew) ridiculous rule not to fly on Shabbat. They should be focussing on yield maximization rather than matching demand and capacity. Downsizing aircraft is the smartest thing they could do.

Respecting the standards of the religion of Israel as the main carrier of the country is not ridiculous.


El Al goes far beyond respecting the specifics of Judaism. The way they appease the radical orthodox Payot nuts is reprehensible and wrong, and costs them a fortune every year.
 
User avatar
yochai
Posts: 269
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:19 pm

Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:44 am

LY777 wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
Most recent update:
El Al Israel Airlines in recent schedule update filed Boeing 747-400 operation to Europe for summer 2019 season. As of 31JUL18, planned Boeing 747-400 service between April and August 2019 as follows.

Tel Aviv – London Heathrow LY315/316 Check again
25APR19 (27APR19 from LHR as LY318)
17JUN19 – 17JUL19 Day 13
18JUL19 – 29AUG19 Day 134

Source: https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... f-31jul18/

Not sure if this still stands, as previously it was stated that the last B744 pax flight would be BKK-TLV 30/31 March 2019. This has changed after one of their B763ER (4X-EAK) went busted due to ground collision. (https://aeronauticsonline.com/el-al-sch ... 7-in-2019/)

Yochai, one of our respected members here previously stated this:
B747-400 and B767-300 fleet will be retired as follows:
B747-400
4X-ELA September 2018
4X-ELB October 2018
4X-ELD January 2019
4X-ELC June 2019
4X-ELF (Freighter) July 2019

B767-300
4X-EAP July 2019
4X-EAJ September 2019
4X-EAK December 2019
4X-EAR March 2020
4X-EAM May 2020
4X-EAN August 2020
4X-EAL November 2020

If the fleet retirement is correct as per Yochai's information, then it will fit in nicely with the routeonline information stated above.


Juiliuswong, fleet plans have changed.
LY will keep the 744s longer than expected while the 763s will go sooner.
Now, LY has only 3 763s in their fleet.
Yochai could confirm this :)


Yes, plans have changed since...3 767's remain (EAM/J/L),last 767-300 flight will be on 31JAN2019 from PEK. One 744 will be retired in July or August with the rest around late October.
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3135
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:54 am

aviationaware wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
El Al is a financial disaster due to their (even for me as a Jew) ridiculous rule not to fly on Shabbat. They should be focussing on yield maximization rather than matching demand and capacity. Downsizing aircraft is the smartest thing they could do.

Respecting the standards of the religion of Israel as the main carrier of the country is not ridiculous.


El Al goes far beyond respecting the specifics of Judaism. The way they appease the radical orthodox Payot nuts is reprehensible and wrong, and costs them a fortune every year.

By letting them change seats? The horror the horror. You must have done research on the subject to find the exact losses they suffer by such actions I am sure of it.
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2858
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:14 am

Not operating an asset like an aircraft one day a week every week makes it very easy to estimate the losses they incur from it.

As for changing seats - letting people change seats for no reason other than they are sitting next to a women is something we should have overcome in the middle ages. And it happens regularly that El Al planes have to turn back because some of those crackerjacks is having some peculiar demands and start to riot. Pilots exceeding maximum allowed block time and all other passengers having to be rerouted has happened more than once and every time is one too many.
 
ly204
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:33 am

Re: El Al after the withdrawal of the 744s

Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:32 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
FlightLevel360 wrote:
DL757NYC wrote:


TLV JFK is packed everyday and the tickets are expensive. Delta down gauged to a 777.


They down gauged it even more - it's an A330-300 now IIRC. TLV-NYC has way too much capacity these days. So not surprising that LY would want to operate less seats on this route.


DL A333s have more seats than the B77E did pre-refitting. As for LY, a B78X with about 340 seats in J-W-Y+-Y would make great sense for routes like BKK and JFK. The B788 order should be converted to B78X. (In another thread, I surmised what a 337-seat map would look like.) UA is upgrading to a B78X and B77W. Most TLV-NYC traffic is O&D.


aemoreira1981 raised an interesting question that seems to have gotten lost in this thread — Yochai, in light of LY not having the appetite to get more financing for additional airframes, would you foresee a scenario where they’d convert their 788 orders to 78Js?

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