richiemo
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757s in Vail

Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:39 pm

Gang, just happened to be looking at some schedules and noticed that Vail Eagle gets a lot of 757 traffic. AA from JFK and DFW, Delta from ATL etc etc. Is that a capacity issue or is it a performance issue at the higher altitudes. Or is there no rhyme or reason to it?
 
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Polot
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Re: 757s in Vail

Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:49 pm

richiemo wrote:
Is that a capacity issue or is it a performance issue at the higher altitudes.

It is both.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: 757s in Vail

Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:51 pm

757s have been a mainstay of Vail/Eagle (EGE) for years. Think it's more about capacity than performance. Nonstops to EGE are in very high demand in the ski season and during peak periods (December holidays and in February as well). The routes are not always daily and so capacity is part of the factor in using the 757. The airport itself is challenging in that snow storms in the area will almost result in it being shut and flights diverted to DEN.
 
johns624
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Re: 757s in Vail

Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:13 pm

I flew an AA 757 out of Gunnison about 20 years ago. I was supposed to fly one in but after a delay in DFW, AA put us on a flight to DEN, then a Dornier to Gunnison that was diverted by a snowstorm to Montrose, where we landed and were bussed back to Crested Butte.
 
rojo
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Re: 757s in Vail

Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:28 pm

It is a performance issue due to elevation, weather variability, an approach through mountainous terrain and challenging take-off procedures due to the mountain in front of the runway. The 757 is able to fly the longer flights with less restrictions (MIA, EWR, ATL, JFK...)
 
xjetflyer2001
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Re: 757s in Vail

Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:29 pm

UA has also scheduled a 757 on the EWREGE run, which I believe hasn't been the case for many years, I would say at least since 2011 or 2012 since UA has sent a 757 to EGE. So that's really nice to see
 
AirFiero
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Re: 757s in Vail

Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:39 pm

So when the 757s are all retired, what will be the successor aircraft?
 
LewisNEO
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Re: 757s in Vail

Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:45 pm

AirFiero wrote:
So when the 757s are all retired, what will be the successor aircraft?


Yes, probably the 797 MOM project and for sure the A321neo LR or XLR.
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codc10
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Re: 757s in Vail

Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:55 pm

The 757 was the mainline jet of choice because it was pretty much the only type that could carry a reasonable payload on the resort-subsidized routes like LGA/EWR, ORD, MIA, ATL. Mainline United mostly flew 737-300s to DEN and LAX (when not operating as UAX with Air Wisky 146s). These days, the 73G and A319 have replaced many 757s as their numbers have diminished.

Here's a cool shot from 2004 or so with the standard Saturday 757 lineup... AA, US, CO, DL, NW and the oddball UAX 146.

Image
 
Sancho99504
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:07 am

AA uses the A319 during off peak times as well as supplemental capacity during the busy season. They're also using A319s to other intermountain destinations that were 757 heavy destinations such as Rifle, Gunnison, Jackson Hole and Steamboat Springs.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
dfwjim1
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:13 am

I flew out of MIA last Friday and there was a large group checking in skiing equipment at the counter and I wondered to myself if they were going to Vail.
 
blooc350
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:31 am

Flew into the Vail Valley Jet Center and noticed the commercial side is extending their terminal. Saw a few 757’s from Delta. 737 from UA. A319 from AA.
 
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FA9295
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:23 am

AirFiero wrote:
So when the 757s are all retired, what will be the successor aircraft?

A321.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:36 am

AirFiero wrote:
So when the 757s are all retired, what will be the successor aircraft?


If nothing new comes onto the scene, EGE and JAC will be some of the very last 757 destinations.

After that, it will have to be A319s or 737-700s on longer routes. A320s or 737-800s may be able to get in and out for shorter hops to close-by hubs.

I'm personally hoping the shorter version of the 797 will have the field performance to handle this type of airport, and that there will be enough space for it on the ramp.
 
bomber996
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:37 am

FA9295 wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
So when the 757s are all retired, what will be the successor aircraft?

A321.


Quite unlikely. The airport is over 6500' above sea level and has a challenging departure procedure. Just take a look at GYPSUM6 and MEEKER3 DPs.

https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1813/06403GYPSUM.PDF
https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1813/06403MEEKER.PDF

Although the A321 is better performing than the B739, it still is nothing like the A319, B73G, and B752. UA has flown A320s in the past, but that was only to DEN. You will never see the A321 in EGE.

Peace {box}
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planecane
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:26 am

When I fly EGE-MIA there are always 150+ passengers. I don't think any other narrowbody can perform the flight with that many passengers.

When the 757 is gone, I guess AA just goes to a 738 or 7M8 with payload restrictions. If either could do it without restrictions, I'd assume they'd use it now. The route can't support a widebody and I'd guess even the A319 would be restricted which would make it pretty uneconomical.

Maybe they'll keep a 3 plane MIA-EGE fleet until something else can do it economically.
 
B757capt
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:05 am

bomber996 wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
So when the 757s are all retired, what will be the successor aircraft?

A321.


Quite unlikely. The airport is over 6500' above sea level and has a challenging departure procedure. Just take a look at GYPSUM6 and MEEKER3 DPs.

https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1813/06403GYPSUM.PDF
https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1813/06403MEEKER.PDF

Although the A321 is better performing than the B739, it still is nothing like the A319, B73G, and B752. UA has flown A320s in the past, but that was only to DEN. You will never see the A321 in EGE.

Peace {box}

Never is a strong word, at an airbus conference earlier this year EGE was an example airport for the 321neo.
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FlyHossD
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:10 am

codc10 wrote:
The 757 was the mainline jet of choice because it was pretty much the only type that could carry a reasonable payload on the resort-subsidized routes like LGA/EWR, ORD, MIA, ATL. Mainline United mostly flew 737-300s to DEN and LAX (when not operating as UAX with Air Wisky 146s). These days, the 73G and A319 have replaced many 757s as their numbers have diminished.

Here's a cool shot from 2004 or so with the standard Saturday 757 lineup... AA, US, CO, DL, NW and the oddball UAX 146.

Image


Thank you for the photo - I remember those days so well.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:36 am

planecane wrote:
When I fly EGE-MIA there are always 150+ passengers. I don't think any other narrowbody can perform the flight with that many passengers.

When the 757 is gone, I guess AA just goes to a 738 or 7M8 with payload restrictions. If either could do it without restrictions, I'd assume they'd use it now. The route can't support a widebody and I'd guess even the A319 would be restricted which would make it pretty uneconomical.


A properly configured A319 (high thrust option, lightweight furnishings) ought to be able to do that. I don't know how AA's are configured, either the legacy US birds or the new-build ones.

I suppose AA could also look into supplementing its existing aircraft orders with a few 737 MAX 7 or SHARP-equipped A320neo.
 
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DL757NYC
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:54 pm

Lots of Ski’s
 
FARmd90
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:50 pm

I’d like to see B6 take a stab at EGE now with them flying to BZN and HDN. I think. EGE/LGB,JFK,FLL portfolio would be nice add with JFK/FLL being on mint planes. Anyone have numbers and could plug them in to see what kind of performance they would get with the 320/321s out of EGE?
 
joeljack
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:51 pm

Just flew out of EGE Wednesday to IAH. Flight was late because there were no gates available. On the ground were 2x757 American, 3x737-700 United, 1xE175 United, 1xCR9 Delta. Lady said they have issues with the 737 to Houston all the time with too many bags, she said they need to change it to a 757 like the EWR flight so they won’t have any issues. Ski equipment is heavy also to IAH, my flight was 1/3rd Hispanic connecting internationally, seemed to all have lots of luggage checking in.

Btw, The new terminal can’t come soon enough. I’ve never seen an airplane terminal so crowded in my life!! No place to stand let alone sit!

On a side note, you can buy beer and drink it anywhere in the terminal!! Super nice! All airports should be that way!!!
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:55 pm

This year, AA left the NYC EGE market after many years of flying it.

Historically it was EWR EGE daily, Saturday only LGA EGE

Then it was JFK EGE daily.

This year I didnt see anything

Another route cut
 
KICT
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:56 pm

Someone mentioned Rifle. As far as I know they have never had airline service. It's only a short drive from EGE anyway.
People are saying. Believe me.
 
MO11
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:01 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
This year, AA left the NYC EGE market after many years of flying it.

Historically it was EWR EGE daily, Saturday only LGA EGE

Then it was JFK EGE daily.

This year I didnt see anything

Another route cut



What? Daily service started December 19 (AA2783). Cut back to 5x weekly for January.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:04 pm

seabosdca wrote:
planecane wrote:
When I fly EGE-MIA there are always 150+ passengers. I don't think any other narrowbody can perform the flight with that many passengers.

When the 757 is gone, I guess AA just goes to a 738 or 7M8 with payload restrictions. If either could do it without restrictions, I'd assume they'd use it now. The route can't support a widebody and I'd guess even the A319 would be restricted which would make it pretty uneconomical.


A properly configured A319 (high thrust option, lightweight furnishings) ought to be able to do that.


Do any U.S. carriers operate the 319 in such a config today? They won't be buying a bunch just to operate at EGE.
 
MO11
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:11 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
planecane wrote:
When I fly EGE-MIA there are always 150+ passengers. I don't think any other narrowbody can perform the flight with that many passengers.

When the 757 is gone, I guess AA just goes to a 738 or 7M8 with payload restrictions. If either could do it without restrictions, I'd assume they'd use it now. The route can't support a widebody and I'd guess even the A319 would be restricted which would make it pretty uneconomical.


A properly configured A319 (high thrust option, lightweight furnishings) ought to be able to do that.


Do any U.S. carriers operate the 319 in such a config today? They won't be buying a bunch just to operate at EGE.


American operates the "hot-and-high" version of the A319, which is the one that serves Eagle.
 
DashTrash
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:28 pm

KICT wrote:
Someone mentioned Rifle. As far as I know they have never had airline service. It's only a short drive from EGE anyway.


Correct on this one.

Even 75s are weight restricted out of EGE to the 190,000lb range.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
KICT
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:32 pm

Is anyone in Vail this weekend?
I'm probably going spotting tomorrow to shoot the Saturday traffic.
I'll be the guy on the side of the mountain knee deep in the powder.
People are saying. Believe me.
 
FlyingLaw1
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:11 pm

codc10 wrote:
The 757 was the mainline jet of choice because it was pretty much the only type that could carry a reasonable payload on the resort-subsidized routes like LGA/EWR, ORD, MIA, ATL. Mainline United mostly flew 737-300s to DEN and LAX (when not operating as UAX with Air Wisky 146s). These days, the 73G and A319 have replaced many 757s as their numbers have diminished.

Here's a cool shot from 2004 or so with the standard Saturday 757 lineup... AA, US, CO, DL, NW and the oddball UAX 146.

Image


What a great picture! Growing up we would go skiing in CO every year (including at Vail). Miss the days of seeing all those tails. We used to fly those 146s into DIA as my Aunt lives there. Used to get a lunch in Y! Those were the days.
 
MO11
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:27 pm

DashTrash wrote:
KICT wrote:
Someone mentioned Rifle. As far as I know they have never had airline service. It's only a short drive from EGE anyway.


Correct on this one.

Even 75s are weight restricted out of EGE to the 190,000lb range.



RIL was used as the diversion airport for ASE, when BAe 146s were is service.
 
Sancho99504
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:42 pm

seabosdca wrote:
planecane wrote:
When I fly EGE-MIA there are always 150+ passengers. I don't think any other narrowbody can perform the flight with that many passengers.

When the 757 is gone, I guess AA just goes to a 738 or 7M8 with payload restrictions. If either could do it without restrictions, I'd assume they'd use it now. The route can't support a widebody and I'd guess even the A319 would be restricted which would make it pretty uneconomical.


A properly configured A319 (high thrust option, lightweight furnishings) ought to be able to do that. I don't know how AA's are configured, either the legacy US birds or the new-build ones.

I suppose AA could also look into supplementing its existing aircraft orders with a few 737 MAX 7 or SHARP-equipped A320neo.

I believe the HP and AA A319s are the high gross weight, high thrust aircraft while the US A319s only included the high gross weight. The 738 does have the thrust bump option, but would still take a payload hit on EGE-MIA.
Last edited by Sancho99504 on Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
Sancho99504
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:47 pm

KICT wrote:
Someone mentioned Rifle. As far as I know they have never had airline service. It's only a short drive from EGE anyway.

When I drove a truck years ago, I ran I70 thru that area all the time and could have sworn I saw a silver bird 757 at least 2x taking off from Rifle. I was unaware that they never had airline service. Although I have seen the C-32s there multiple times and a C-17 accompaniment.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
airbazar
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:51 pm

bomber996 wrote:
Quite unlikely. The airport is over 6500' above sea level and has a challenging departure procedure. Just take a look at GYPSUM6 and MEEKER3 DPs.

Just because the 752 is better it doesn't mean the A321neo won't be able to do it.
Having said that, I'd be curious to see the numbers. Here on a.net we often talk about the NEO in terms of range only but it also received a thrust bump specifically for hot&high airports like MEX.
 
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exFWAOONW
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:56 pm

I was told baggage (room for all those skis) was the reason NW preferred to send the 757. Field performance was a bonus.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:02 pm

There’s some special RNP AR departuresout of EGE that aren’t as restrictive as the public ones. Maybe somebody has a Cottonwood departure.

gf
 
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seabosdca
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:07 pm

MO11 wrote:
American operates the "hot-and-high" version of the A319, which is the one that serves Eagle.


Which A319s? I assume the new-build AA ones? It's hard to imagine that US would have gone for a hot rod configuration to tootle around the east coast.
 
planecane
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:07 pm

seabosdca wrote:
planecane wrote:
When I fly EGE-MIA there are always 150+ passengers. I don't think any other narrowbody can perform the flight with that many passengers.

When the 757 is gone, I guess AA just goes to a 738 or 7M8 with payload restrictions. If either could do it without restrictions, I'd assume they'd use it now. The route can't support a widebody and I'd guess even the A319 would be restricted which would make it pretty uneconomical.


A properly configured A319 (high thrust option, lightweight furnishings) ought to be able to do that. I don't know how AA's are configured, either the legacy US birds or the new-build ones.

I suppose AA could also look into supplementing its existing aircraft orders with a few 737 MAX 7 or SHARP-equipped A320neo.


I'm sure an A319 can do the mission. However, even if they can fly with no payload restrictions, there are only 128 seats. The 752s, when I've been a passenger, have had 150+ passengers. The route seems to have too much demand for 1 A319 but not nearly the demand for 2 A319s.
 
jb1087xna
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:22 pm

I'm assuming DL could use their 737-700's if needed, given their performance specs? Yeah, big capacity cut if it was a 1/1 replacement, but just asking in the capability aspect.
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slcdeltarumd11
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:46 pm

AA does fly to both JFK and LGA from EGE. Flights to JFK today and both JFK and LGA tomorrow.

AA has a large revenue guarantee program with Vail Resorts, but i think they rarely ever need it since the flights do so well. Only in the worst seasons. All other airlines to my knowledge just fly to EGE at their own wishes cause they fill the planes at high fares.

The 757 is ideal because of its take off performance and luggage room. Those planes go out HEAVY and full of luggage. The average person checking in at EGE has at least 2 checked bags. Very heavy baggage demand by passengers with skis and heavy winter gear. The 737-700 is probably the second best airplane, but hurts in luggage capacity with all those skis, the 757 is still the best.

Its not demand really its the performance for luggage capacity and take off performance why the 757-200 is the ideal plane for EGE.
 
sargester
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:54 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
This year, AA left the NYC EGE market after many years of flying it.

Historically it was EWR EGE daily, Saturday only LGA EGE

Then it was JFK EGE daily.

This year I didnt see anything

Another route cut


AA never cut vail, just seasonal, they added LGA-EGE on saturdays to say the least, JFK-EGE makes a lot of money for AA and they don't even code share on it, all local traffic
 
bbcolo22
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:16 pm

I've always thought that it was cool that a big bird like B757 flies there. I've driven past there on I-70 and seen one landing - impressive.

Someone told me years ago that the Town of Vail made a deal with airlines to buy any empty seats on Vail/Eagle flights, so the airlines can make some $ by sending in big birds.

I wonder what Boeing thinks these days about their decision to end the 757? A great airplane.

PS. Eagle Airport Cam: https://www.eaglecounty.us/Airport/Abou ... /Web_Cams/
 
Flighty
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:30 pm

seabosdca wrote:
MO11 wrote:
American operates the "hot-and-high" version of the A319, which is the one that serves Eagle.


Which A319s? I assume the new-build AA ones? It's hard to imagine that US would have gone for a hot rod configuration to tootle around the east coast.


I never heard US or AA A319 struggle to do a mission, short of perhaps PHX-ANC full bags. Like the 73G, the 319 have plenty of power and a big wing. AA flies them to DFW and ORD and LAX. This is not a surprise imo

EGE seems to require the "high performance" jets, 752, A319, 73G, E75. The CR7 would qualify too. (edit: and yes, AA/SkyWest fly PHX-EGE on CR7, and DL/SkyWest fly SLC-EGE on CR7)

Since JetBlue does not operate any of these types, JetBlue would not be serving EGE anytime soon.
Last edited by Flighty on Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
xjetflyer2001
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:38 pm

KICT wrote:
Is anyone in Vail this weekend?
I'm probably going spotting tomorrow to shoot the Saturday traffic.
I'll be the guy on the side of the mountain knee deep in the powder.


I unfortunately won't be making it out there tomorrow, but I am hoping to go soon, I'm unsure of good spotting locations however, so any help would be appreciated if you could pass that along, thanks.
 
slider
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:05 pm

KICT wrote:
Is anyone in Vail this weekend?
I'm probably going spotting tomorrow to shoot the Saturday traffic.
I'll be the guy on the side of the mountain knee deep in the powder.


I'll be there in two weeks but I plan on being on the sticks too and airplane spotting is literally the last thing I plan on doing. ;)
 
Kno
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:18 pm

bbcolo22 wrote:
I've always thought that it was cool that a big bird like B757 flies there. I've driven past there on I-70 and seen one landing - impressive.

Someone told me years ago that the Town of Vail made a deal with airlines to buy any empty seats on Vail/Eagle flights, so the airlines can make some $ by sending in big birds.

I wonder what Boeing thinks these days about their decision to end the 757? A great airplane.

PS. Eagle Airport Cam: https://www.eaglecounty.us/Airport/Abou ... /Web_Cams/


It looks like they are building a new section of terminal - does this mean the end of boarding with stairs at EGE?
 
Elementalism
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:19 pm

There are still some missions the 757-200 shines. This is one of them. Like to see what the 797 brings to the table.
 
trueblew
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:19 pm

Flighty wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
MO11 wrote:
American operates the "hot-and-high" version of the A319, which is the one that serves Eagle.


Which A319s? I assume the new-build AA ones? It's hard to imagine that US would have gone for a hot rod configuration to tootle around the east coast.


I never heard US or AA A319 struggle to do a mission, short of perhaps PHX-ANC full bags. Like the 73G, the 319 have plenty of power and a big wing. AA flies them to DFW and ORD and LAX. This is not a surprise imo

EGE seems to require the "high performance" jets, 752, A319, 73G, E75. The CR7 would qualify too. (edit: and yes, AA/SkyWest fly PHX-EGE on CR7, and DL/SkyWest fly SLC-EGE on CR7)

Since JetBlue does not operate any of these types, JetBlue would not be serving EGE anytime soon.


I'd imagine the A220 will have the performance to fly to JFK from EGE?
 
strfyr51
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:33 pm

AirFiero wrote:
So when the 757s are all retired, what will be the successor aircraft?

the B737-700/800 the A319/A320
 
HPRamper
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Re: 757s in Vail

Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:56 pm

planecane wrote:
I'm sure an A319 can do the mission. However, even if they can fly with no payload restrictions, there are only 128 seats. The 752s, when I've been a passenger, have had 150+ passengers. The route seems to have too much demand for 1 A319 but not nearly the demand for 2 A319s.

Not a lot of seats, and a very small forward belly that I don't believe can fit skis, at least not effectively.

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