LondonXtreme
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Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:00 am

Both JL and HA serve Kona. I'm thinking of any possibilities for nonstop flight between Tokyo and Kahului. In my point of view, OGG is larger than KOA in terms of passenger traffic, also OGG has more flight to US continental than KOA does.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:06 am

It's not the lack of demand that prevents such operation, but rather, OGG currently doesn't have:
1. Any Custom/Border facility
2. A runway that's long enough for, let say, a 777 to take off with enough fuels to fly to Japan.

I believe they're working on the first half (CBD facilities) right now. For the runway, the plan is to extend Runway 2/20 by about 1000m to enable long-haul 777 operations. That's not coming until after 2020 or so, though.

Quite frankly, otherwise you would have seen JL/NH flying to OGG for a long, long time.
Last edited by zakuivcustom on Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:09 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
AV8AJET
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:06 am

I thinks it’s a matter of the runway length in OGG, it becomes rather restrictive performance wise.
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Cubsrule
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:12 am

AV8AJET wrote:
I thinks it’s a matter of the runway length in OGG, it becomes rather restrictive performance wise.


OGG-NRT is shorter than OGG-ORD, so a relatively dense 77E can probably do it.
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Caspian27
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:43 am

UA sends 777s to OGG sometimes. I think it must be the lack of customs.
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LAXintl
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:45 am

Cubsrule wrote:

OGG-NRT is shorter than OGG-ORD, so a relatively dense 77E can probably do it.


No, in NAM it can be quite a bit longer to Japan.

Average NAM Distance for Jan/Apr/Jul/Oct.

OGG-ORD - 3353 / 3428 / 3451 / 3420

OGG-NRT - 4077 / 3780 / 3456 / 3635
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zakuivcustom
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:06 am

LAXintl wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

OGG-NRT is shorter than OGG-ORD, so a relatively dense 77E can probably do it.


No, in NAM it can be quite a bit longer to Japan.

Average NAM Distance for Jan/Apr/Jul/Oct.

OGG-ORD - 3353 / 3428 / 3451 / 3420

OGG-NRT - 4077 / 3780 / 3456 / 3635


Adding on - heading westbound from Hawaii = flying against the wind. Just for a quick example, NRT->HNL is blocked at around 6hr45mins, but HNL->NRT is blocked at around 9hr15mins.

Meanwhile, heading from OGG to mainland US (let say, ORD) you get the jetstream. UA blocked the OGG->ORD flight at 7hr50mins, but ORD->OGG flight for 9hr30mins for that reason.

But the key is still custom facility - which means JL/NH can't even do triangular routings like NRT-OGG-KOA-NRT (or HNL instead of KOA - same idea) just so they don't have a problem with the short runway.
 
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RWA380
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:26 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
It's not the lack of demand that prevents such operation, but rather, OGG currently doesn't have:
1. Any Custom/Border facility
2. A runway that's long enough for, let say, a 777 to take off with enough fuels to fly to Japan.

I believe they're working on the first half (CBD facilities) right now. For the runway, the plan is to extend Runway 2/20 by about 1000m to enable long-haul 777 operations. That's not coming until after 2020 or so, though.

Quite frankly, otherwise you would have seen JL/NH flying to OGG for a long, long time.


Even though Canadian flights non-stop into Maui happen everyday, flights are pre-cleared in Vancouver or Calgary, but I though there was a requirement to have FIS on the other end for some emergency reasoning? Wasn't that why AS never got to fly YVR-SNA, even though they were about to board? I also understand they could divert to KOA or HNL.

I knew runway length was the biggest issue when JL wanted to fly it in the 90's & tried to get Maui county to lengthen the strip & that discussion has been going on since then. Island time for reals.
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LAXintl
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:48 am

RWA380 wrote:
Even though Canadian flights non-stop into Maui happen everyday, flights are pre-cleared in Vancouver or Calgary, but I though there was a requirement to have FIS on the other end for some emergency reasoning? Wasn't that why AS never got to fly YVR-SNA, even though they were about to board? I also understand they could divert to KOA or HNL.


The requirement is that the airport has a procedure to keep passengers sterile for rescreening if required.

As far as CBP, OGG does have limited staffing and is a designated port of entry to the U.S, but for bizjet/GA traffic. Any international air carrier service would require proper terminal FIS facilities, and obviously more CBP staff (and their funding).
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Cubsrule
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:52 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

OGG-NRT is shorter than OGG-ORD, so a relatively dense 77E can probably do it.


No, in NAM it can be quite a bit longer to Japan.

Average NAM Distance for Jan/Apr/Jul/Oct.

OGG-ORD - 3353 / 3428 / 3451 / 3420

OGG-NRT - 4077 / 3780 / 3456 / 3635


Adding on - heading westbound from Hawaii = flying against the wind. Just for a quick example, NRT->HNL is blocked at around 6hr45mins, but HNL->NRT is blocked at around 9hr15mins.

Meanwhile, heading from OGG to mainland US (let say, ORD) you get the jetstream. UA blocked the OGG->ORD flight at 7hr50mins, but ORD->OGG flight for 9hr30mins for that reason.

But the key is still custom facility - which means JL/NH can't even do triangular routings like NRT-OGG-KOA-NRT (or HNL instead of KOA - same idea) just so they don't have a problem with the short runway.


Y’all are sort of missing the point. A 77E in any configuration that a Japanese carrier has is quite a lot more capable than UA’s nearly 400-seat 77As that get out of OGG to ORD virtually every day.
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BeachBoy
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:08 am

I think the main reason is that there is no FIS facility at OGG.
And since pre-clearance is coming to NRT, there is no political will to build one.
With a FIS, airlines could route flights NRT/HND/KIX-OGG-HNL-NRT/HND/KIX to overcome the possible issue w/ the runway length.

BTW, what is the takeoff performance of the 787s?

Another reason is that Japanese tourists supposedly prefer KOA to OGG.
The infrastructure for Japanese tourists (hotel amenities, menus, signage, Japanese-speaking tour companies) are lacking on Maui compared to Kona.
 
B1168
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:08 am

Based on Google Maps, OGG’s runway’s about 2130m in length. Other than heat, I see no reason a 788 can’t reach NRT, if a 77A can reach ORD.
The only thing that they need is a TSA pre-check in NRT.
 
ikramerica
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:24 am

BeachBoy wrote:
I think the main reason is that there is no FIS facility at OGG.
And since pre-clearance is coming to NRT, there is no political will to build one.
With a FIS, airlines could route flights NRT/HND/KIX-OGG-HNL-NRT/HND/KIX to overcome the possible issue w/ the runway length.

BTW, what is the takeoff performance of the 787s?

Another reason is that Japanese tourists supposedly prefer KOA to OGG.
The infrastructure for Japanese tourists (hotel amenities, menus, signage, Japanese-speaking tour companies) are lacking on Maui compared to Kona.

That was going to be my point.

Whether it’s due to lack of OGG access or the climate in Kona area vs Maui (Maui is cooler and wetter with more wind) Japanese flock to Kona not Maui. And hotels in and around Kona have Japanese friendly concessions. From large staff numbers who speak the language to everything printed in Japanese to Japanese food at all buffets to an over abundance of golf courses.

In Kona I feel the hotels are geared as much to Japanese as to Americans.

In Maui I never feel that way. There might be specific hotels that are that way but over all it’s less focused on making the Japanese tourist feel like they never left Japan.
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Cubsrule
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:32 am

B1168 wrote:
The only thing that they need is a TSA pre-check in NRT.


OGG’s security checkpoints are awful (as is the facility generally) but they do have Precheck.
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RWA380
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:56 am

B1168 wrote:
Based on Google Maps, OGG’s runway’s about 2130m in length. Other than heat, I see no reason a 788 can’t reach NRT, if a 77A can reach ORD.
The only thing that they need is a TSA pre-check in NRT.


This isn't the whole story, it is not about distance but the seasonally strong headwinds. A 777 takes off from OGG to ORD, a very large percentage of the time that flight is operating with a tailwind, while a 777 takes off from OGG heading to NRT they are battling headwinds year round. The 777 going to ORD is going to have used less fuel by the time it reaches it';s destination, while the same 777 heading to Japan will have used much more heavy fuel, likely the difference between making it or not.

Secondly, once that 777 heading to ORD hits the West Coast, there are a myriad of alternate landing spots should fuel become an issue, I think Midway Island is about it, for a Hawaii - Japan crossing. Clearly if OGG could handle the aircraft, the hard push by HA & JL would be on for T-pac out of OGG.

ikramerica wrote:
BeachBoy wrote:
I think the main reason is that there is no FIS facility at OGG.
And since pre-clearance is coming to NRT, there is no political will to build one.
With a FIS, airlines could route flights NRT/HND/KIX-OGG-HNL-NRT/HND/KIX to overcome the possible issue w/ the runway length.

BTW, what is the takeoff performance of the 787s?

Another reason is that Japanese tourists supposedly prefer KOA to OGG.
The infrastructure for Japanese tourists (hotel amenities, menus, signage, Japanese-speaking tour companies) are lacking on Maui compared to Kona.

That was going to be my point.

Whether it’s due to lack of OGG access or the climate in Kona area vs Maui (Maui is cooler and wetter with more wind) Japanese flock to Kona not Maui. And hotels in and around Kona have Japanese friendly concessions. From large staff numbers who speak the language to everything printed in Japanese to Japanese food at all buffets to an over abundance of golf courses.

In Kona I feel the hotels are geared as much to Japanese as to Americans.

In Maui I never feel that way. There might be specific hotels that are that way but over all it’s less focused on making the Japanese tourist feel like they never left Japan.


Back in the late 1900's there was a push by JL to get into OGG & it was a loud one, the senate heard the case for runway expansion from JL representatives, Maui could be over run by Japanese tourists just like Waikiki if the had gotten their way, they wanted to fly 747's in there, then a proposed DC-10-30 service.

Bottom line is, Maui county chose to not become an International airport because they did not want to be confused in any way with Oahu, when tourists looked at Hawaii destinations. Maui wanted to be the Bora-Bora to Hawaii. The introduction of mainland service was a big change for Maui, I know property prices are much higher on Maui.

I remember flying non-stop to Maui from PDX in 1980 on an EZ DC-8-61 for a two week holiday, ours was the only mainland airline on the ramp at 1pm. We boarded via stairs & it was the very last time I ever saw stickers used for seat assignments on the front of the ticket jackets.

The Big Island now is a huge draw because there are Japanese geared properties, but also because you can fly non-stop to KOA again, now on HA. The 789 or 788 could be a game changer, then the ball is firmly in the Counties hands.
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77H
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:23 am

RWA380 wrote:
B1168 wrote:
Based on Google Maps, OGG’s runway’s about 2130m in length. Other than heat, I see no reason a 788 can’t reach NRT, if a 77A can reach ORD.
The only thing that they need is a TSA pre-check in NRT.


This isn't the whole story, it is not about distance but the seasonally strong headwinds. A 777 takes off from OGG to ORD, a very large percentage of the time that flight is operating with a tailwind, while a 777 takes off from OGG heading to NRT they are battling headwinds year round. The 777 going to ORD is going to have used less fuel by the time it reaches it';s destination, while the same 777 heading to Japan will have used much more heavy fuel, likely the difference between making it or not.

Secondly, once that 777 heading to ORD hits the West Coast, there are a myriad of alternate landing spots should fuel become an issue, I think Midway Island is about it, for a Hawaii - Japan crossing. Clearly if OGG could handle the aircraft, the hard push by HA & JL would be on for T-pac out of OGG.

ikramerica wrote:
BeachBoy wrote:
I think the main reason is that there is no FIS facility at OGG.
And since pre-clearance is coming to NRT, there is no political will to build one.
With a FIS, airlines could route flights NRT/HND/KIX-OGG-HNL-NRT/HND/KIX to overcome the possible issue w/ the runway length.

BTW, what is the takeoff performance of the 787s?

Another reason is that Japanese tourists supposedly prefer KOA to OGG.
The infrastructure for Japanese tourists (hotel amenities, menus, signage, Japanese-speaking tour companies) are lacking on Maui compared to Kona.

That was going to be my point.

Whether it’s due to lack of OGG access or the climate in Kona area vs Maui (Maui is cooler and wetter with more wind) Japanese flock to Kona not Maui. And hotels in and around Kona have Japanese friendly concessions. From large staff numbers who speak the language to everything printed in Japanese to Japanese food at all buffets to an over abundance of golf courses.

In Kona I feel the hotels are geared as much to Japanese as to Americans.

In Maui I never feel that way. There might be specific hotels that are that way but over all it’s less focused on making the Japanese tourist feel like they never left Japan.


Back in the late 1900's there was a push by JL to get into OGG & it was a loud one, the senate heard the case for runway expansion from JL representatives, Maui could be over run by Japanese tourists just like Waikiki if the had gotten their way, they wanted to fly 747's in there, then a proposed DC-10-30 service.

Bottom line is, Maui county chose to not become an International airport because they did not want to be confused in any way with Oahu, when tourists looked at Hawaii destinations. Maui wanted to be the Bora-Bora to Hawaii. The introduction of mainland service was a big change for Maui, I know property prices are much higher on Maui.

I remember flying non-stop to Maui from PDX in 1980 on an EZ DC-8-61 for a two week holiday, ours was the only mainland airline on the ramp at 1pm. We boarded via stairs & it was the very last time I ever saw stickers used for seat assignments on the front of the ticket jackets.

The Big Island now is a huge draw because there are Japanese geared properties, but also because you can fly non-stop to KOA again, now on HA. The 789 or 788 could be a game changer, then the ball is firmly in the Counties hands.


I wonder why everyone is assuming a hypothetical NRT-OGG-NRT would be operated by a 77E? NRT-KOA has been operating with a 763 since service was resumed. While OGG-NRT would be a longer flying time with headwinds than say, OGG-ORD, 763s have operated longer flights from OGG. At one time DL used to run ATL-OGG-ATL which would have be comparable flying time even with tailwinds given the added distance. Beyond that, JL's 763s have a very low density configuration at 199 seats and cargo would be minimal out of OGG so the aircraft would be lighter than your average 763. Additionally, OGG has some fierce headwinds that usually blow right down the runway which aids in take off performance. Lastly, if JL really wanted to operate into OGG they could always operate it with a tech stop in HNL to uplift more fuel. Given this, I'm not sure runway length is the primary impetus to starting the route.

I'm also not sure lack of FIS facilities is that much of a nonstarter. KOA's FIS facility is not all that intricate, no reason why a similar facility couldn't be erected at OGG. Looking at Google Earth, there appears to be a GSE building immediately northeast of the terminal that could be moved to make way for a KOA-style FIS facility. There appears to be enough pavement in that area to support a hardstand for a WB. As for funding, if there was enough demand for such a flight, its not unreasonable to think JL or another Asian carrier couldn't help finance the facility in partnership with the county and/or state.

I personally believe that JL or another Asian carrier doesn't serve OGG because there isn't enough demand to Maui. Since there has never been a nonstop I'd imagine Maui doesn't have the same visibility that Oahu or the Kona Coast has gotten. Walk along any beach on Maui, or Front Street in Lahaina, and you will find very few tourists from Asia relative to the aforementioned locations. Now with HA and JL in a JV partnership, I would assume JL is happy to continue to have HA move its passengers to OGG after arriving in HNL.

77H
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:43 am

77H wrote:
I'm also not sure lack of FIS facilities is that much of a nonstarter. KOA's FIS facility is not all that intricate, no reason why a similar facility couldn't be erected at OGG. Looking at Google Earth, there appears to be a GSE building immediately northeast of the terminal that could be moved to make way for a KOA-style FIS facility. There appears to be enough pavement in that area to support a hardstand for a WB. As for funding, if there was enough demand for such a flight, its not unreasonable to think JL or another Asian carrier couldn't help finance the facility in partnership with the county and/or state.


As RWA380 already mention - it's not even whether OGG has the space to build a FIS facility or not, people in Maui simply doesn't want the full-fledged int'l (Mainly Japanese) traffic, and thus, decide not to build any FIS facility.

77H wrote:
I personally believe that JL or another Asian carrier doesn't serve OGG because there isn't enough demand to Maui. Since there has never been a nonstop I'd imagine Maui doesn't have the same visibility that Oahu or the Kona Coast has gotten. Walk along any beach on Maui, or Front Street in Lahaina, and you will find very few tourists from Asia relative to the aforementioned locations. Now with HA and JL in a JV partnership, I would assume JL is happy to continue to have HA move its passengers to OGG after arriving in HNL.


Build a FIS facility, and just watch how quick the "tourists from Asia" will come. It's Japanese and Hawaii, there's no such thing as "not enough demand".
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:17 am

77H wrote:
I wonder why everyone is assuming a hypothetical NRT-OGG-NRT would be operated by a 77E? NRT-KOA has been operating with a 763 since service was resumed. While OGG-NRT would be a longer flying time with headwinds than say, OGG-ORD, 763s have operated longer flights from OGG. At one time DL used to run ATL-OGG-ATL which would have be comparable flying time even with tailwinds given the added distance. Beyond that, JL's 763s have a very low density configuration at 199 seats and cargo would be minimal out of OGG so the aircraft would be lighter than your average 763. Additionally, OGG has some fierce headwinds that usually blow right down the runway which aids in take off performance. Lastly, if JL really wanted to operate into OGG they could always operate it with a tech stop in HNL to uplift more fuel. Given this, I'm not sure runway length is the primary impetus to starting the route.


Take a look at the numbers in the recent MSP-Hawaii thread. The 763 can’t get much farther than. SLC from OGG.
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77H
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:57 am

Cubsrule wrote:
77H wrote:
I wonder why everyone is assuming a hypothetical NRT-OGG-NRT would be operated by a 77E? NRT-KOA has been operating with a 763 since service was resumed. While OGG-NRT would be a longer flying time with headwinds than say, OGG-ORD, 763s have operated longer flights from OGG. At one time DL used to run ATL-OGG-ATL which would have be comparable flying time even with tailwinds given the added distance. Beyond that, JL's 763s have a very low density configuration at 199 seats and cargo would be minimal out of OGG so the aircraft would be lighter than your average 763. Additionally, OGG has some fierce headwinds that usually blow right down the runway which aids in take off performance. Lastly, if JL really wanted to operate into OGG they could always operate it with a tech stop in HNL to uplift more fuel. Given this, I'm not sure runway length is the primary impetus to starting the route.


Take a look at the numbers in the recent MSP-Hawaii thread. The 763 can’t get much farther than. SLC from OGG.


If that were the case, I wonder how UA operated OGG-DEN, TW operated OGG-STL, AA operated OGG-ORD, and DL operated OGG-ATL all with 763 equipment years ago. All are further east than SLC. I flew on the AA OGG-ORD flight back in March ‘06. I’ve also flew on the OGG-DEN flight when it was a 763.

Beyond that, up until about 2 years ago AA operated OGG-DFW with 763 equipment.

77H
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:38 am

77H wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
77H wrote:
I wonder why everyone is assuming a hypothetical NRT-OGG-NRT would be operated by a 77E? NRT-KOA has been operating with a 763 since service was resumed. While OGG-NRT would be a longer flying time with headwinds than say, OGG-ORD, 763s have operated longer flights from OGG. At one time DL used to run ATL-OGG-ATL which would have be comparable flying time even with tailwinds given the added distance. Beyond that, JL's 763s have a very low density configuration at 199 seats and cargo would be minimal out of OGG so the aircraft would be lighter than your average 763. Additionally, OGG has some fierce headwinds that usually blow right down the runway which aids in take off performance. Lastly, if JL really wanted to operate into OGG they could always operate it with a tech stop in HNL to uplift more fuel. Given this, I'm not sure runway length is the primary impetus to starting the route.


Take a look at the numbers in the recent MSP-Hawaii thread. The 763 can’t get much farther than. SLC from OGG.


If that were the case, I wonder how UA operated OGG-DEN, TW operated OGG-STL, AA operated OGG-ORD, and DL operated OGG-ATL all with 763 equipment years ago. All are further east than SLC. I flew on the AA OGG-ORD flight back in March ‘06. I’ve also flew on the OGG-DEN flight when it was a 763.

Beyond that, up until about 2 years ago AA operated OGG-DFW with 763 equipment.

77H


If you block a bunch of seats, you can do much more. Plus, OGG is usually dry and usually has fairly significant headwinds, so there’s a possibility of pushing the envelope a bit. That’s not a very typically Japanese risk preference, however.
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cathay747
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:08 pm

One other item not mentioned yet, which directly addresses the demand issue...the pending-approval JV between HA & JL...so there's no need for JL to fly their own metal into OGG (or for HA to start a service) even if it ever became possible. As for NH, well...they'll just have to rely on traditional interlining with HA in my view (I believe the NH/HA code share has stopped or will stop once the HA/JL JV is approved and put into force).
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friendlyskies22
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:07 pm

The runway 2 and 5 2000' extensions have been on the planning docs for decades, but the airport/island don't seem to be in a rush to get it done, even with the relative ease of construction (flat land, no buildings to be removed, etc.) The locals seem to push back on any expansion, although OGG just completed a 4,000 vehicle rental car facility. The other factor is the shopping experience that Japanese tourists seem to crave. Maui has limited high-end shopping (unlike Ala Moana & Waikiki) and although the beaches are second to none, other attractions are limited, unlike the things like the Arizona Memorial and HI Volcanoes. With 35,000 acres recently out of Cane production, something is going to happen, but none of it is beachfront, and current restrictions call for some sort of continued ag, but we'll see. Locals say "no more hotels."
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:06 pm

friendlyskies22 wrote:
The runway 2 and 5 2000' extensions have been on the planning docs for decades, but the airport/island don't seem to be in a rush to get it done, even with the relative ease of construction (flat land, no buildings to be removed, etc.) The locals seem to push back on any expansion, although OGG just completed a 4,000 vehicle rental car facility. The other factor is the shopping experience that Japanese tourists seem to crave. Maui has limited high-end shopping (unlike Ala Moana & Waikiki) and although the beaches are second to none, other attractions are limited, unlike the things like the Arizona Memorial and HI Volcanoes. With 35,000 acres recently out of Cane production, something is going to happen, but none of it is beachfront, and current restrictions call for some sort of continued ag, but we'll see. Locals say "no more hotels."


"shopping experience Japanese female tourists seem to crave" - there, fixed that for you. Japanese women are among the world's most voracious spenders of parents' or husbands' money. Japanese men going to Hawaii are content with chilling at the beach, having a decent steak, and playing a bit of golf if they're older.
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Aptivaboy
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:03 pm

The locals seem to push back on any expansion, although OGG just completed a 4,000 vehicle rental car facility.


Absolutely. I travel to Maui about twice per year and from speaking with the locals, they are not in favor of any additional expansion. The new rental car facility was not liked! What the locals seem to feel, from my interactions with them, is that while they realize that tourism is necessary for Maui's economy to survive, there is a breaking point in terms of traffic and crowds. The toads in between Kahalui and Kihei are now experiencing California style slowing on many days, and the trip from say Kihei to Lahaina can be downright ridiculously slow depending upon the time of day. They seem to think that Maui is about as built up as it can be while still remaining Maui.

This isn't to say that OGG shouldn't be updated and upgraded - it should. The place is a dump. Just that the locals worry that what remains of their beautiful little isle will soon be trampled under even more tourism and rampant development. When I think of how the island has changed from my trip there and back in 1994 compared to the present, its frightening.
 
dfwjim1
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:23 pm

Do the locals really have that much influence over tourist development in Maui?
 
Natflyer
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:16 pm

dfwjim1 wrote:
Do the locals really have that much influence over tourist development in Maui?


Um, should´nt they? It´s their home...
 
77H
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:59 am

Aptivaboy wrote:
The locals seem to push back on any expansion, although OGG just completed a 4,000 vehicle rental car facility.


Absolutely. I travel to Maui about twice per year and from speaking with the locals, they are not in favor of any additional expansion. The new rental car facility was not liked! What the locals seem to feel, from my interactions with them, is that while they realize that tourism is necessary for Maui's economy to survive, there is a breaking point in terms of traffic and crowds. The toads in between Kahalui and Kihei are now experiencing California style slowing on many days, and the trip from say Kihei to Lahaina can be downright ridiculously slow depending upon the time of day. They seem to think that Maui is about as built up as it can be while still remaining Maui.

This isn't to say that OGG shouldn't be updated and upgraded - it should. The place is a dump. Just that the locals worry that what remains of their beautiful little isle will soon be trampled under even more tourism and rampant development. When I think of how the island has changed from my trip there and back in 1994 compared to the present, its frightening.


The bigger issues related to your post are the inadequate infrastructure planning (see Lahaina Bypass for flagrant example) and poor driving habits. I was driving on Honoapiilani with my brother a few months ago and we counted 30 people looking down at their phones, many of whom were exacerbating the already bad traffic situation. Kama aina need to understand they can’t have the malasada and eat it too. You can’t recieve more money and jobs related to tourism by constantly pushing back against its expansion. What we need to do is push for more sustainable development plans.

77H
 
BeachBoy
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:06 am

Itʻs not a matter of "IF," but "WHEN" there will be Japan-OGG flights.

Iʻm just curious what is gonna be the trigger/force the issue:
1. Pre-clearance at NRT
2. Runway 2-20 extended to the planned 8530ʻ
3. HA awarded HND slots for HND-OGG
4. JL/HA/DL requests authority for a NRT-OGG flt and the state/federal govt is forced to establish a FIS facility. (There were rumors years ago of DL starting seasonal NRT-OGG-HNL-NRT flights.)
5. US economy tanks, tourism from US mainland crashes, causing the HI/Maui government officials to support international flts to OGG so there is a more diversified tourist base like O`ahu.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:51 am

Lahaina Bypass - what a mess! I drove that a few months ago. I hear what you're saying. Hawaii in general is known for piss poor planning and a generally corrupt and incompetent state government. They make my own California look competent and worthy of trust.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:10 am

77H wrote:
I wonder why everyone is assuming a hypothetical NRT-OGG-NRT would be operated by a 77E? NRT-KOA has been operating with a 763 since service was resumed. While OGG-NRT would be a longer flying time with headwinds than say, OGG-ORD, 763s have operated longer flights from OGG. At one time DL used to run ATL-OGG-ATL which would have be comparable flying time even with tailwinds given the added distance. Beyond that, JL's 763s have a very low density configuration at 199 seats and cargo would be minimal out of OGG so the aircraft would be lighter than your average 763. Additionally, OGG has some fierce headwinds that usually blow right down the runway which aids in take off performance. Lastly, if JL really wanted to operate into OGG they could always operate it with a tech stop in HNL to uplift more fuel. Given this, I'm not sure runway length is the primary impetus to starting the route.


It doesn't even require a 767. The distance between Kahului and Narita is 3.404 nautical miles, that's within range of a 737MAX or A320NEO. The winds could be a problem so it might be weight reduced, but other than that this is a distance a narrow body can cover these days. When the A321NEO-LR arrives I think we have the perfect aircraft for this route.
 
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cathay747
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:49 pm

Natflyer wrote:
dfwjim1 wrote:
Do the locals really have that much influence over tourist development in Maui?


Um, should´nt they? It´s their home...


Exactly. They don't want it to turn into another Waikiki choked with traffic and hordes of shopping tourists...have you seen Kalakaua Ave. anytime in the last decade? MY GOD! The sidewalks are choked with so many people hitting all the high-end shops it's ridiculous. It's become the Rodeo Drive of the Pacific, with a little Vegas mixed in. WAY more traffic and people than the infrastructure can handle, and with zero space to expand any of the roads to help with the vehicular traffic. It's insane.
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7673mech
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:27 pm

dfwjim1 wrote:
Do the locals really have that much influence over tourist development in Maui?


Shouldn't they?
It's their island.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:07 pm

Exactly. They don't want it to turn into another Waikiki choked with traffic and hordes of shopping tourists...have you seen Kalakaua Ave. anytime in the last decade? MY GOD! The sidewalks are choked with so many people hitting all the high-end shops it's ridiculous. It's become the Rodeo Drive of the Pacific, with a little Vegas mixed in. WAY more traffic and people than the infrastructure can handle, and with zero space to expand any of the roads to help with the vehicular traffic. It's insane.


Exactly! There are two huge fears on Maui as I see it. First is the "Save Makena," movement. That whole stretch of south Maui is being steadily built up into homes, sometimes mega homes, for the super wealthy, and these are some of the best beaches anywhere. Housing prices and availability are already sky high, and these developments will only cater to the very wealthy. There's a reason that so many natives and locals are having to relocate to the west coast - housing prices, the natives being forced out of their traditional homes. The second concerns the huge swath of cane lands in the island's center. With sugar production closing down, the fear is that this land will be developed, and you can bet your bottom dollar that the developers are licking their chops at this possibility.

The thing is, Maui has essentially reached its limit in terms of sustainable development. The infrastructure just isn't there for whatever reason, good or bad. Many areas are single lane only due to geography, like most of the road to Lahaina and nearly all of up-country. Maui just can't get much larger without totally transforming, if not destroying, the island's character. I first went to Maui around 1977. OGG was a dusty little terminal with air stairs. The island was very much, "Old Hawaii." In 1994 I went again, and there were maybe one or two traffic lights in Kahalui, that's it; a few more restaurants, some more hotels and resorts, but still recognizable as Maui. When I started going again regularly in the 2000s, I was shocked. It reminded me of what happened to Orange County - a paradise in the seventies and eighties, now overcrowded and cramped since. The locals don't want that. One thing to consider is that with native Hawaiians pressing for native or aboriginal protections like Native Americans have on the mainland, this may result in slowing growth if lands are awarded to them. Time will tell.
 
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aloha73g
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:19 pm

7673mech wrote:
dfwjim1 wrote:
Do the locals really have that much influence over tourist development in Maui?


Shouldn't they?
It's their island.


When my grandparents were born on Maui in 1918 and 1924 the population was about 30,000. When my mom was born in 1951 is was less than 50,000. Now it is almost 150,000. Tourism was non-existent back then (Maui wasn't "developed" for tourism until the late 1970s). People who visit Hawai'i often forget that for those who have called Hawai'i home for generations (especially native Hawaiians) the "visitor experience" is not at the top of our list in terms of priorities. Affordable housing, homelessness, cost of living, protecting our natural resources, etc .... these are the issues we care about.

We certainly understand that tourism is driving our economy, but there is a limit to how many people can visit, so I don't blame the people on Maui who don't want to roll out the red carpet to non-stop Japan flights. Its not like Maui is hard to get to either ... HA has flights practically every 20 minutes from HNL all day long. If a quick connection at HNL is too much for you .... then don't go! Maui will be just fine without you.

-Aloha!
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airbazar
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:18 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
Y’all are sort of missing the point. A 77E in any configuration that a Japanese carrier has is quite a lot more capable than UA’s nearly 400-seat 77As that get out of OGG to ORD virtually every day.

When I was on the Big Island this past Summer, JL was actually using a 763. I believe they use a mix of 772 and 763 to Hawaii.
 
ikramerica
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:42 pm

aloha73g wrote:
7673mech wrote:
dfwjim1 wrote:
Do the locals really have that much influence over tourist development in Maui?


Shouldn't they?
It's their island.


When my grandparents were born on Maui in 1918 and 1924 the population was about 30,000. When my mom was born in 1951 is was less than 50,000. Now it is almost 150,000. Tourism was non-existent back then (Maui wasn't "developed" for tourism until the late 1970s). People who visit Hawai'i often forget that for those who have called Hawai'i home for generations (especially native Hawaiians) the "visitor experience" is not at the top of our list in terms of priorities. Affordable housing, homelessness, cost of living, protecting our natural resources, etc .... these are the issues we care about.

We certainly understand that tourism is driving our economy, but there is a limit to how many people can visit, so I don't blame the people on Maui who don't want to roll out the red carpet to non-stop Japan flights. Its not like Maui is hard to get to either ... HA has flights practically every 20 minutes from HNL all day long. If a quick connection at HNL is too much for you .... then don't go! Maui will be just fine without you.

-Aloha!

For better or worse my Dad was part of that. He was a contractor for Hyatt International, which included the Regency Resort Properties in Hawaii for some contractual reason. His company was a pioneer in automated hotel computer systems, linking bookings, front desk, back office, restaurants, bars into one system when many hotels were still using paper ledgers and reconciling room charges by hand each night. He was part of the Maui Hyatt Regency project, with the waterfall pool etc. He flew my Mom out to stay one week. The whole family went the next year. Things have grown quite a bit since then. I went back to look at it and it’s small by today’s feature pool standards. The Kona Hyatt (now Marriott) is so much grander. I remember when they started building that and people questioned if Kona could support such a massive hotel. How times changed there too.

(There were a core group of Hyatt Resort guys who would meet up around the world. Computer system, interior outfitting, restaurant design, feature pools. I remember hanging by the pool with them in Singapore at the Hyatt. Fritz the “fake rock” guy was memorable because he was a large loud German guy with basically white fur on his chest and back. Singapore has a problem of a waterfall over the garage entrance splashing cars. Fritz was trying to figure out what he could engineer to fix it. Ultimately it was adding a slick coating to the rocks and creating a taller barrier at the splash pool edge.)
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LAXdude1023
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:28 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
LAXintl wrote:

No, in NAM it can be quite a bit longer to Japan.

Average NAM Distance for Jan/Apr/Jul/Oct.

OGG-ORD - 3353 / 3428 / 3451 / 3420

OGG-NRT - 4077 / 3780 / 3456 / 3635


Adding on - heading westbound from Hawaii = flying against the wind. Just for a quick example, NRT->HNL is blocked at around 6hr45mins, but HNL->NRT is blocked at around 9hr15mins.

Meanwhile, heading from OGG to mainland US (let say, ORD) you get the jetstream. UA blocked the OGG->ORD flight at 7hr50mins, but ORD->OGG flight for 9hr30mins for that reason.

But the key is still custom facility - which means JL/NH can't even do triangular routings like NRT-OGG-KOA-NRT (or HNL instead of KOA - same idea) just so they don't have a problem with the short runway.


Y’all are sort of missing the point. A 77E in any configuration that a Japanese carrier has is quite a lot more capable than UA’s nearly 400-seat 77As that get out of OGG to ORD virtually every day.


The routing has been ORD-OGG-KOA-ORD as far as I knew.
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Cubsrule
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:31 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:

Adding on - heading westbound from Hawaii = flying against the wind. Just for a quick example, NRT->HNL is blocked at around 6hr45mins, but HNL->NRT is blocked at around 9hr15mins.

Meanwhile, heading from OGG to mainland US (let say, ORD) you get the jetstream. UA blocked the OGG->ORD flight at 7hr50mins, but ORD->OGG flight for 9hr30mins for that reason.

But the key is still custom facility - which means JL/NH can't even do triangular routings like NRT-OGG-KOA-NRT (or HNL instead of KOA - same idea) just so they don't have a problem with the short runway.


Y’all are sort of missing the point. A 77E in any configuration that a Japanese carrier has is quite a lot more capable than UA’s nearly 400-seat 77As that get out of OGG to ORD virtually every day.


The routing has been ORD-OGG-KOA-ORD as far as I knew.


It’s nonstop now. Flight 348.
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jsnww81
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:03 am

aloha73g wrote:

When my grandparents were born on Maui in 1918 and 1924 the population was about 30,000. When my mom was born in 1951 is was less than 50,000. Now it is almost 150,000. Tourism was non-existent back then (Maui wasn't "developed" for tourism until the late 1970s). People who visit Hawai'i often forget that for those who have called Hawai'i home for generations (especially native Hawaiians) the "visitor experience" is not at the top of our list in terms of priorities. Affordable housing, homelessness, cost of living, protecting our natural resources, etc .... these are the issues we care about.

We certainly understand that tourism is driving our economy, but there is a limit to how many people can visit, so I don't blame the people on Maui who don't want to roll out the red carpet to non-stop Japan flights. Its not like Maui is hard to get to either ... HA has flights practically every 20 minutes from HNL all day long. If a quick connection at HNL is too much for you .... then don't go! Maui will be just fine without you.

-Aloha!


Funny, as my grandmother was born on Maui in 1926 and my mom in 1953. Mom was actually born at Tripler hospital on Oahu, but my grandmother flew to Oahu to have all of her kids at Tripler, since she and my grandfather were veterans and it was free there. I have scads of aunts, uncles and cousins still living on Maui, although my mom "went mainland" a few weeks after graduating from St. Anthony's in the early 70s. She remembers high-school beer busts on empty beaches in Wailea, back when you had to drive on dirt roads through kiawe thickets to get there. Kihei was a cluster of tin-roofed houses, Azeka's store, and not much else. Puunene was still an actual town where people lived and Paia had about three times more people than it does now (even I can remember when "Upper Paia" was a distinct place and not just overgrown cane fields...)

We went back almost every summer to visit relatives when I was a kid, so I can remember watching OGG morph from an open-air one-room terminal (I always remind myself when I'm in baggage claim that it's the same building) into today's mile-long monstrosity with jetbriges and moving walkways. The whole complex is actually looking really tired nowadays, although I still think of it as "new."

The irony in all of the panic about out-of-control tourist numbers is that there really haven't been a ton of hotel rooms added on the island for the past 25 years. The last big wave of resort construction was in the late 80s and early 90s (the Kea Lani, Grand Wailea, Ritz Carlton, and a crap-ton of condos in Kihei and Napili/Honokowai). Other than a few properties changing hands or being renovated, and a couple of developments here and there, large-scale resort development has been almost nonexistent.

What I hear the most complaints about from my relatives on Maui is not the resorts, but all of the commercial and residential development that's occurred in the last 15 years - the giant tangle of mainland retail chains at the south end of Kahului, and the huge glut of new houses in Maui Lani and at the south end of Wailuku. It does seem strange to exit OGG and drive past Walmart, Target, Costco, Lowes, etc. My relatives fret more about central Maui turning into a giant suburban Oahu-style bedroom community - "another Miliani or Kapolei" - than they do about more resorts and more tourists.

The thing is, though, that with large-scale agriculture pretty much dead and most of the corporate business entrenched over on Oahu, there's not much left for Maui except tourism and services. I don't see what harm a flight or two to Japan would do, particularly now that there are so many restrictions in place to prevent Waikiki-style development. Kona has had Japan service for the better part of 20 years and it hasn't led to armageddon there.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:30 am

This has got to be about the FIS issue. Either a 763 or 788 should have zero problem flying for 9+ hours to NRT from OGG's runway.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:45 am

RWA380 wrote:
B1168 wrote:
Based on Google Maps, OGG’s runway’s about 2130m in length. Other than heat, I see no reason a 788 can’t reach NRT, if a 77A can reach ORD.
The only thing that they need is a TSA pre-check in NRT.


This isn't the whole story, it is not about distance but the seasonally strong headwinds. A 777 takes off from OGG to ORD, a very large percentage of the time that flight is operating with a tailwind, while a 777 takes off from OGG heading to NRT they are battling headwinds year round. The 777 going to ORD is going to have used less fuel by the time it reaches it';s destination, while the same 777 heading to Japan will have used much more heavy fuel, likely the difference between making it or not.

Secondly, once that 777 heading to ORD hits the West Coast, there are a myriad of alternate landing spots should fuel become an issue, I think Midway Island is about it, for a Hawaii - Japan crossing. Clearly if OGG could handle the aircraft, the hard push by HA & JL would be on for T-pac out of OGG.

ikramerica wrote:
BeachBoy wrote:
I think the main reason is that there is no FIS facility at OGG.
And since pre-clearance is coming to NRT, there is no political will to build one.
With a FIS, airlines could route flights NRT/HND/KIX-OGG-HNL-NRT/HND/KIX to overcome the possible issue w/ the runway length.

BTW, what is the takeoff performance of the 787s?

Another reason is that Japanese tourists supposedly prefer KOA to OGG.
The infrastructure for Japanese tourists (hotel amenities, menus, signage, Japanese-speaking tour companies) are lacking on Maui compared to Kona.

That was going to be my point.

Whether it’s due to lack of OGG access or the climate in Kona area vs Maui (Maui is cooler and wetter with more wind) Japanese flock to Kona not Maui. And hotels in and around Kona have Japanese friendly concessions. From large staff numbers who speak the language to everything printed in Japanese to Japanese food at all buffets to an over abundance of golf courses.

In Kona I feel the hotels are geared as much to Japanese as to Americans.

In Maui I never feel that way. There might be specific hotels that are that way but over all it’s less focused on making the Japanese tourist feel like they never left Japan.


Back in the late 1900's there was a push by JL to get into OGG & it was a loud one, the senate heard the case for runway expansion from JL representatives, Maui could be over run by Japanese tourists just like Waikiki if the had gotten their way, they wanted to fly 747's in there, then a proposed DC-10-30 service.

Bottom line is, Maui county chose to not become an International airport because they did not want to be confused in any way with Oahu, when tourists looked at Hawaii destinations. Maui wanted to be the Bora-Bora to Hawaii. The introduction of mainland service was a big change for Maui, I know property prices are much higher on Maui.

I remember flying non-stop to Maui from PDX in 1980 on an EZ DC-8-61 for a two week holiday, ours was the only mainland airline on the ramp at 1pm. We boarded via stairs & it was the very last time I ever saw stickers used for seat assignments on the front of the ticket jackets.

The Big Island now is a huge draw because there are Japanese geared properties, but also because you can fly non-stop to KOA again, now on HA. The 789 or 788 could be a game changer, then the ball is firmly in the Counties hands.

I think you're missing the Marshall Islands as diversions. Guam, Yap, Ponapei Kwajalien
you'd be well surprised where there are strips in 8,000-10,000 ft runwaysin the pacific.. Not to mention Nadi (fiji)
 
vadodara
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:35 am

Seems like both AA and UA have 777’s scheduled. So that should not be the limitation.
 
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XLA2008
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:57 am

77H wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
77H wrote:
I wonder why everyone is assuming a hypothetical NRT-OGG-NRT would be operated by a 77E? NRT-KOA has been operating with a 763 since service was resumed. While OGG-NRT would be a longer flying time with headwinds than say, OGG-ORD, 763s have operated longer flights from OGG. At one time DL used to run ATL-OGG-ATL which would have be comparable flying time even with tailwinds given the added distance. Beyond that, JL's 763s have a very low density configuration at 199 seats and cargo would be minimal out of OGG so the aircraft would be lighter than your average 763. Additionally, OGG has some fierce headwinds that usually blow right down the runway which aids in take off performance. Lastly, if JL really wanted to operate into OGG they could always operate it with a tech stop in HNL to uplift more fuel. Given this, I'm not sure runway length is the primary impetus to starting the route.


Take a look at the numbers in the recent MSP-Hawaii thread. The 763 can’t get much farther than. SLC from OGG.


If that were the case, I wonder how UA operated OGG-DEN, TW operated OGG-STL, AA operated OGG-ORD, and DL operated OGG-ATL all with 763 equipment years ago. All are further east than SLC. I flew on the AA OGG-ORD flight back in March ‘06. I’ve also flew on the OGG-DEN flight when it was a 763.

Beyond that, up until about 2 years ago AA operated OGG-DFW with 763 equipment.

77H


I flew the DFW-OGG a few times, was comfortable enough in business but I wouldn’t have done it in economy on those 767’s! Was a good 9 hours! Out of interest why did AA stop DFW-OGG? It was always almost impossible to get a seat on those flights! Every time I flew it was always full.
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SeoulIncheon
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:36 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
77H wrote:
I wonder why everyone is assuming a hypothetical NRT-OGG-NRT would be operated by a 77E? NRT-KOA has been operating with a 763 since service was resumed. While OGG-NRT would be a longer flying time with headwinds than say, OGG-ORD, 763s have operated longer flights from OGG. At one time DL used to run ATL-OGG-ATL which would have be comparable flying time even with tailwinds given the added distance. Beyond that, JL's 763s have a very low density configuration at 199 seats and cargo would be minimal out of OGG so the aircraft would be lighter than your average 763. Additionally, OGG has some fierce headwinds that usually blow right down the runway which aids in take off performance. Lastly, if JL really wanted to operate into OGG they could always operate it with a tech stop in HNL to uplift more fuel. Given this, I'm not sure runway length is the primary impetus to starting the route.


It doesn't even require a 767. The distance between Kahului and Narita is 3.404 nautical miles, that's within range of a 737MAX or A320NEO. The winds could be a problem so it might be weight reduced, but other than that this is a distance a narrow body can cover these days. When the A321NEO-LR arrives I think we have the perfect aircraft for this route.


NRT-OGG should be easily doable with 737 MAX. However, during winter season HNL/OGG/KOA-NRT is heavily influenced by stronger jetstream. During winter months HNL-NRT is blocked at 9 hours, which is one hour longer than currently longest 737 MAX route (8 hours, BSB-MCO, 3,778 statute miles). A 737MAX or A320NEO probably won't do Hawaii-Japan route with profitable loads - and there isn't any viable tech stop between Hawaii and Japan.
 
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aloha73g
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Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:37 am

jsnww81 wrote:
aloha73g wrote:

When my grandparents were born on Maui in 1918 and 1924 the population was about 30,000. When my mom was born in 1951 is was less than 50,000. Now it is almost 150,000. Tourism was non-existent back then (Maui wasn't "developed" for tourism until the late 1970s). People who visit Hawai'i often forget that for those who have called Hawai'i home for generations (especially native Hawaiians) the "visitor experience" is not at the top of our list in terms of priorities. Affordable housing, homelessness, cost of living, protecting our natural resources, etc .... these are the issues we care about.

We certainly understand that tourism is driving our economy, but there is a limit to how many people can visit, so I don't blame the people on Maui who don't want to roll out the red carpet to non-stop Japan flights. Its not like Maui is hard to get to either ... HA has flights practically every 20 minutes from HNL all day long. If a quick connection at HNL is too much for you .... then don't go! Maui will be just fine without you.

-Aloha!


Funny, as my grandmother was born on Maui in 1926 and my mom in 1953. Mom was actually born at Tripler hospital on Oahu, but my grandmother flew to Oahu to have all of her kids at Tripler, since she and my grandfather were veterans and it was free there. I have scads of aunts, uncles and cousins still living on Maui, although my mom "went mainland" a few weeks after graduating from St. Anthony's in the early 70s. She remembers high-school beer busts on empty beaches in Wailea, back when you had to drive on dirt roads through kiawe thickets to get there. Kihei was a cluster of tin-roofed houses, Azeka's store, and not much else. Puunene was still an actual town where people lived and Paia had about three times more people than it does now (even I can remember when "Upper Paia" was a distinct place and not just overgrown cane fields...)

We went back almost every summer to visit relatives when I was a kid, so I can remember watching OGG morph from an open-air one-room terminal (I always remind myself when I'm in baggage claim that it's the same building) into today's mile-long monstrosity with jetbriges and moving walkways. The whole complex is actually looking really tired nowadays, although I still think of it as "new."

The irony in all of the panic about out-of-control tourist numbers is that there really haven't been a ton of hotel rooms added on the island for the past 25 years. The last big wave of resort construction was in the late 80s and early 90s (the Kea Lani, Grand Wailea, Ritz Carlton, and a crap-ton of condos in Kihei and Napili/Honokowai). Other than a few properties changing hands or being renovated, and a couple of developments here and there, large-scale resort development has been almost nonexistent.

What I hear the most complaints about from my relatives on Maui is not the resorts, but all of the commercial and residential development that's occurred in the last 15 years - the giant tangle of mainland retail chains at the south end of Kahului, and the huge glut of new houses in Maui Lani and at the south end of Wailuku. It does seem strange to exit OGG and drive past Walmart, Target, Costco, Lowes, etc. My relatives fret more about central Maui turning into a giant suburban Oahu-style bedroom community - "another Miliani or Kapolei" - than they do about more resorts and more tourists.

The thing is, though, that with large-scale agriculture pretty much dead and most of the corporate business entrenched over on Oahu, there's not much left for Maui except tourism and services. I don't see what harm a flight or two to Japan would do, particularly now that there are so many restrictions in place to prevent Waikiki-style development. Kona has had Japan service for the better part of 20 years and it hasn't led to armageddon there.


Your mom was probably classmates with one of my aunties/uncles at St Anthony's. Haha. Small World :-)
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:18 am

Cubsrule wrote:
77H wrote:
I wonder why everyone is assuming a hypothetical NRT-OGG-NRT would be operated by a 77E? NRT-KOA has been operating with a 763 since service was resumed. While OGG-NRT would be a longer flying time with headwinds than say, OGG-ORD, 763s have operated longer flights from OGG. At one time DL used to run ATL-OGG-ATL which would have be comparable flying time even with tailwinds given the added distance. Beyond that, JL's 763s have a very low density configuration at 199 seats and cargo would be minimal out of OGG so the aircraft would be lighter than your average 763. Additionally, OGG has some fierce headwinds that usually blow right down the runway which aids in take off performance. Lastly, if JL really wanted to operate into OGG they could always operate it with a tech stop in HNL to uplift more fuel. Given this, I'm not sure runway length is the primary impetus to starting the route.


Take a look at the numbers in the recent MSP-Hawaii thread. The 763 can’t get much farther than. SLC from OGG.



Thats with US configured 767 i.e.: DL 208 seats vs JAL: 199 new config
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2033
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:40 am

jsnww81 wrote:
Kona has had Japan service for the better part of 20 years and it hasn't led to armageddon there.

I don't think you've driven Belt Hwy either side of Palani Rd. intersection at rush hour recently. Gridlock for miles, esp. Keauhou side.
 
77H
Posts: 1432
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:34 am

WPvsMW wrote:
jsnww81 wrote:
Kona has had Japan service for the better part of 20 years and it hasn't led to armageddon there.

I don't think you've driven Belt Hwy either side of Palani Rd. intersection at rush hour recently. Gridlock for miles, esp. Keauhou side.


And that has to do with Japanese tourists or locals getting off work, on their phones and not paying attention to the road?

If tourist were the sole reason for traffic as many like to claim, why does traffic get so much worse when school is in than when the keiki are on break? Are tourist taking their kids to school too? Let’s be real..

Hawaii drivers are some of the worst in the country in my opinion. I see it everyday. Better drivers education and better traffic management systems would solve traffic problems much more than trying to limit tourists or that god awful rail. We have to stop blaming all our issues on tourists and take more ownership in the solving of the issues here.

77H
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 13840
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:34 pm

rbavfan wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
77H wrote:
I wonder why everyone is assuming a hypothetical NRT-OGG-NRT would be operated by a 77E? NRT-KOA has been operating with a 763 since service was resumed. While OGG-NRT would be a longer flying time with headwinds than say, OGG-ORD, 763s have operated longer flights from OGG. At one time DL used to run ATL-OGG-ATL which would have be comparable flying time even with tailwinds given the added distance. Beyond that, JL's 763s have a very low density configuration at 199 seats and cargo would be minimal out of OGG so the aircraft would be lighter than your average 763. Additionally, OGG has some fierce headwinds that usually blow right down the runway which aids in take off performance. Lastly, if JL really wanted to operate into OGG they could always operate it with a tech stop in HNL to uplift more fuel. Given this, I'm not sure runway length is the primary impetus to starting the route.


Take a look at the numbers in the recent MSP-Hawaii thread. The 763 can’t get much farther than. SLC from OGG.



Thats with US configured 767 i.e.: DL 208 seats vs JAL: 199 new config


At 30,000 pounds of fuel/hour, removing 5,000 pounds doesn’t make that much weight difference.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5388
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Japan-Maui nonstop flight?

Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:46 pm

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