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NMSteve
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Re: Has Delta Ever Run A Daylight ATL-LHR?

Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:37 am

I hate landing in London at o'dark thirty in the morning, and it's hours before you can check into your hotel.
 
Judge1310
Posts: 311
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:55 pm

Re: Has Delta Ever Run A Daylight ATL-LHR?

Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:57 am

MalevTU134 wrote:
As somebody who used to be involved in TATL route planning for a major US airline for several years, my comment is one of incredulity. It's like a.net is trying to reinvent the wheel. I mean, don't you guys think DL knows all this and has the information available at the push of a button? PDEWs, yields, operational costs, aircraft rotation availabilities, ditto for crew, available connections, PAX surveys, and a lot more...
As always, the answer to these questions here on a.net (why doesn't airline YY fly from XXX to YYY, or daytime or with an A380 or whatever) is that it sees more potential in using its limited resources on another route or at other hours. It doesn't even need to be that the conclusion is that it wouldn't be profitable, just that using those resources to operate another route is even more profitable. So, to do the exercises done by a few posters here (of possible connections, arrival times et cetera) is futile when you have no clue what other options the airline has for using those same resources.
Sorry to be such a bore...


Preach on brother (or sister, even?)! I can't speak for all aviation pros on this forum but what grinds our gears is that when we explain why a concept wouldn't work *in the current environment* we get derided, ignored (as one poster suggested we do), or not even get the response posted. Like, do some folks here think that airline planners do nothing all day and just wait for thoughts to pop into their minds from the vast ether? Every time a route schedule is conjured up, it is put through the ringer because the concept has to be brought forward to folks with higher pay grades and the feasibility has to be good enough to warrant new/updated service.

Questions and enquiries are great and I, as a pro, love giving insight as to *why* things are done they way they are. But, over the past few years (I've personally been a lurker here for well over a decade), it seems as if the armchair CEOs don't care to actually learn from those of us who make this amazing industry our business, our career, our passion. We were all those wide-eyed wonder kids back when we started so we get the interest. But we also learned to listen to and learn from the pros and vets in the game to then, in turn, offer up sound and feasible solutions in aviation. :-)
 
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Aisak
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Re: Has Delta Ever Run A Daylight ATL-LHR?

Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:41 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
While not Delta, Virgin Atlantic has an 8am JFK-LHR. That flight is pretty useless for feed or the overall delta network, but it exists.

It might not help feeding the network, but it’s a good marketing tool. It just adds +1 to the number of flights offered on that particular route. Having to fight with the strong BA+AA on that route, every single thing counts.

When LHR was finally available for all US carriers, the daylight flight was useful as a “cheap” way to add that +1 flight. Finding a late evening landing slot and an early morning take off at LHR was way easier than the “usual” red eye TATL slots. If DL didn’t run a daylight ATL flight back then, I really doubt it ever comes to life
 
twicearound
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: Has Delta Ever Run A Daylight ATL-LHR?

Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:32 pm

skipness1E wrote:
N649DL wrote:
Fun fact: Years ago, I want to say 2009ish DL did run an evening ATL-LGW flight alongside the LHR flight shortly after they were allowed to operate it. It operated MCO-ATL-LGW and was on a 763.

There was DL3 JFK-LHR arriving 2110 in Summer 2008 and the following winter moving to a 7am arrival for the summer. Perhaps this is the one you mean?
The daylight flights serve a niche purpose, they offer a way to fly point to point with less jet lag and hence don't offer decent connections at either end.
Currently we see only seven, all East coast with a strong P2P performance. Not something ATL offers to the same levels.
AC868 YYZ-LHR B789
AA142 JFK-LHR B772
AA90 ORD-LHR B788
BA178 JFK-LHR B744/B772
BA238 BOS-LHR B772
UA122 IAD-LHR B752
UA934 EWR-LHR B764



You forget the morning Virgin flights
BOS-LHR
JFK-LHR
 
UALFAson
Posts: 1003
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:41 pm

Re: Has Delta Ever Run A Daylight ATL-LHR?

Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:50 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
No, you don't get what I'm saying. But whatever... By all means, go on having this discussion leaving half of the equation out of the picture.


I understand exactly what you're saying--that we don't know information about the airline's opportunity cost. So even if DL could make $1 in profit on a hypothetical daytime ATL-LHR flight, if they can make $2 in profit somewhere else, they are better off using their equipment and resources on the latter route. I have an MBA and understand finance and operations concepts, thanks.

But we, the public, have no access to information about an airline's actual opportunity cost, just like we don't have access to information about the actual profitability of any given route in an airline's network. In the absence of those facts, we speculate off of information or potential variables we do know.

Your response seems to be, "It is the way it is because we said so." Thank you, Mother Russia. I don't know what is worse on this site: the teenage armchair CEOs who can't see or don't know the bigger picture, or the arrogant "insiders" who think the rest of us are too stupid to have an interesting discussion about some topic in the industry.
"We hope you've enjoyed flying with us as much as we've enjoyed taking you for a ride."
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3351
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Re: Has Delta Ever Run A Daylight ATL-LHR?

Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:24 pm

NMSteve wrote:
I hate landing in London at o'dark thirty in the morning, and it's hours before you can check into your hotel.


Just reserve the night prior..standard stuff.

GF
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4465
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Has Delta Ever Run A Daylight ATL-LHR?

Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:23 pm

twicearound wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
N649DL wrote:
Fun fact: Years ago, I want to say 2009ish DL did run an evening ATL-LGW flight alongside the LHR flight shortly after they were allowed to operate it. It operated MCO-ATL-LGW and was on a 763.

There was DL3 JFK-LHR arriving 2110 in Summer 2008 and the following winter moving to a 7am arrival for the summer. Perhaps this is the one you mean?
The daylight flights serve a niche purpose, they offer a way to fly point to point with less jet lag and hence don't offer decent connections at either end.
Currently we see only seven, all East coast with a strong P2P performance. Not something ATL offers to the same levels.
AC868 YYZ-LHR B789
AA142 JFK-LHR B772
AA90 ORD-LHR B788
BA178 JFK-LHR B744/B772
BA238 BOS-LHR B772
UA122 IAD-LHR B752
UA934 EWR-LHR B764



You forget the morning Virgin flights
BOS-LHR
JFK-LHR

Whoops! When was there ever a BOS-LHR daylight on VS? We had VS26 JFK-LHR and VS18 EWR-LHR, the latter having been dropped.
 
stlgph
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Re: Has Delta Ever Run A Daylight ATL-LHR?

Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:53 pm

spring/summer 2019
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
gunnerman
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Re: Has Delta Ever Run A Daylight ATL-LHR?

Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:56 pm

A morning BOS-LHR by VS does not exist, only BA does it.
 
LAXLHR
Posts: 429
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Re: Has Delta Ever Run A Daylight ATL-LHR?

Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:07 am

GSP psgr wrote:
Delta's striking as the only one of the US3 not to run a daylight flight to LHR from one of their big trunk hubs as AA (ORD) and UA (IAD & EWR) do. This got me wondering if Delta has ever run such a flight from the most powerful hub in North America? Such a flight would open up a lot of 1 stop markets, particularly in the in the South, that do not currently enjoy access to an LHR daylight flight. The timings could clearly work: something like:

DLXXX ATL-LHR 0930 2230 763
DLXXX LHR-ATL 0730 1230 763

Then again, the last such additional daylight flight, AA's PHL-LHR daylight with a 757 was a complete and utter flop. Despite being the big gorilla at ORD, UA has declined trying to compete with AA on a daylight ORD-LHR service (although it started one just before 9/11, which was quickly axed). Also, a daylight LHR is a service that might make more sense as a DTW flight given that it could utilize a 752 instead of a 763 from ATL.


AA runs a 772 JFK-LHR.

ATL-LHR does not have enough premium traffic demand for a daytime flight to LHR...of course this could change. ATL is the worlds busiest airport for one reason only and that has NOTHING to do with premium demand, contracts etc when its compared to TRUE Global cities like NYC and CHICAGO. DC for obvious reasons. As much as I continue to care even less about DL, they have super smart management, its one of the best run airlines in the world (not service, but run ;-) ...and so if DL HQ saw the opportunity to make decent money on a daytime it would be there. DL does not leave money on the floor, that for sure!!!
BA JM EA GK PA VS AA SN HP CO W7 WN NW DL QQ UA AC US LH LX OS JL QF QR PG MH CX U2 EK 9W UK TP VY VN PC LO OK OZ UL SQ LA

707 727 L10 732-NG 741 742 743 744 752 753 762 763 772 773 787 DC8 DC9 DC10 M80 M11 100 AB3 310 318 319 320 321 332 333 342 343 380
 
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NickolayAv
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Re: Has Delta Ever Run A Daylight ATL-LHR?

Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:24 am

gunnerman wrote:
A morning BOS-LHR by VS does not exist, only BA does it.

VS is adding an additional daily flight from BOS-LHR effective March 31, 2019, it is an morning departure.
"If you want to be a millionaire, start with a billion dollars and launch a new airline"-Richard Branson
 
gunnerman
Posts: 859
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:55 pm

Re: Has Delta Ever Run A Daylight ATL-LHR?

Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:58 am

The BOS-LHR VS158 which starts on 1 April 2019 is summer-only ending 26 October.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 7265
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Has Delta Ever Run A Daylight ATL-LHR?

Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:42 am

Are the daytime eastbound US-UK flights more used by US originating/point of sale or UK originating/point of sale traffic?

I ask, because in theory, I could see the day time flight more useful to UK based passengers, particularly ones returning from a business or leisure trip in the US.
 
NYCVIE
Posts: 140
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Re: Has Delta Ever Run A Daylight ATL-LHR?

Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:12 am

2travel2know2 wrote:
lhrsfosyd wrote:
Atlanta won't be able to support a day flight to London. The flight is too long, not enough O&D and not enough transfer traffic at either end. The only other city in North America that could possibly have a day flight to London is Philadelphia with late evening departure by BA from London and morning return similar to BA239/BA238 or BA183/BA178.
Red eyes ATL-LON and LON-ATL might have more than a chance than day-time ATL-LHR.
That's if DL ATL has plenty of late evening arrivals around 2400 and early morning departures around 0600. Be reminded that LON-ATL red-eyes won't be able to operate out of LHR or perhaps even out of LGW because curfew.
IMHO, PHL-LHR - be AA or BA - will happen soon, even if only a couple of days per week summer time only.


As another poster mentioned earlier, US/AA tried PHL-LHR relatively recently on a 752 and even with AA strength in PHL and BA in LHR it was a failure for them so probably wouldn't come back on AA and definitely not on BA whose smallest equipment would be the 788.

OT if VS was working with some sort of ME network out of LHR with a bank in the late evening I could see DTW-LHR daytime maybe working and even then it would be a strong maybe.
 
richcandy
Posts: 714
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2001 4:49 pm

Re: Has Delta Ever Run A Daylight ATL-LHR?

Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:02 am

Eastbound daytime transatlantic flights seam to be popular with a select group of people. People who maybe aren't so time limited. If you have plenty of money and are say retired whats the better option? An overnight flight in business or first with reduced service followed by a day in London feeling tired. Or a day time flight with more service and then going straight to the hotel and an early bedtime on arrival. Then the next day is just a regular day?

However is this market not fairly limited to origin/destination passengers on busy routes. EI tried JFK-DUB and AF JFK-CDG daytime services and they didn't last long.

Alex
 
bananaboy
Posts: 1625
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Re: Has Delta Ever Run A Daylight ATL-LHR?

Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:21 am

UALFAson wrote:
shaneam12 wrote:
Tristar787 wrote:
And that 8am JFK-LHR on a VS A346 does well. There are many pax connecting from that flight to VS’ LHR-LOS and LHR-DEL flights as they both depart late evening. DL can at least share in the revenue on the JFK-LHR portion of those connecting itineraries.


Yeah this flight is actually pretty useful for Delta's network. All of the redeyes from the west coast can connect at JFK for the continuation towards London and the rest of Europe. Morning flights can work if you get slots and have an adequate amount of connecting passengers.



That doesn't make any sense. Why would someone from the U.S. West Coast take a red-eye to JFK then change planes and take a daylight flight to LHR (then potentially transfer to a third flight to somewhere in continental Europe)? They have wasted an entire travel day. Why wouldn't they just take a mid-afternoon nonstop from the West Coast to LHR and arrive the next morning?


Did it many times when I was flying UA exclusively. Their LAX departures weren(from memory) either around noon or 5pm. Allowing for traffic and a 40 mile drive to the airport, I was sometimes leaving the house 3 hours early to be sure of no issues.

Taking an 1130pm flight to ORD meant the roads and we're quieter as was security.. Have a short red-eye, quick coffee in IAD and then on to LHR, home then straight to bed. In the "glory days" I could even fly from ONT to LHR and avoid the traffic. Every time I did the Atlantic crossing in daylight, my jetlag seemed to be less.

Mark
All my life, I've been kissing, your top lip 'cause your bottom one's missing
 
eicvd
Posts: 1411
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:11 pm

Re: Has Delta Ever Run A Daylight ATL-LHR?

Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:03 pm

richcandy wrote:
Eastbound daytime transatlantic flights seam to be popular with a select group of people. People who maybe aren't so time limited. If you have plenty of money and are say retired whats the better option? An overnight flight in business or first with reduced service followed by a day in London feeling tired. Or a day time flight with more service and then going straight to the hotel and an early bedtime on arrival. Then the next day is just a regular day?

However is this market not fairly limited to origin/destination passengers on busy routes. EI tried JFK-DUB and AF JFK-CDG daytime services and they didn't last long.

Alex

The EI flight didn’t last long simply because they had a lack of aircraft. That day return DUB-JFK-DUB ‘stole’ a SNN based 757, it was replaced by that Omni 762 which was a disaster brand wise.
COYBIB
 
twicearound
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: Has Delta Ever Run A Daylight ATL-LHR?

Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:53 pm

gunnerman wrote:
The BOS-LHR VS158 which starts on 1 April 2019 is summer-only ending 26 October.


Since we are getting into details. This is a new add for VS/DL so a seasonal run makes sense. And it is not "summer only." 7 months is more than half the year. Much like the second AMS flight for DL. These flights really only stop for the winter.
 
gunnerman
Posts: 859
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Re: Has Delta Ever Run A Daylight ATL-LHR?

Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:54 pm

Airlines have two timetables: summer for seven months and winter for five months.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 5727
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Has Delta Ever Run A Daylight ATL-LHR?

Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:47 pm

ATL-LHR daylight would eliminate any possibility for connections at ATL or LHR. To boot, the market size isnt near large enough to justify a flight like that with good yields. To make a daylight flight across the pond work, its not good enough for the market to be big. It has to be MASSIVE and it has to have high yields to boot. Thats why only NYC, ORD, YYZ, BOS, and IAD can do it. Even IAD-LHR is pushing it for a daylight flight. Its probably the bottom limit for it.

GSP psgr wrote:
acentauri wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

PHL, huh? PHL is not exactly an O&D powerhouse. It gets, what, 60% of ATL's O&D?

Show me the data that PHL has 60% of ATL's annual O&D to LHR - the general topic of this thread.


FWIW, Wikipedia lists ATL-LHR at 644k and PHL-LHR at 472.5k, making PHL-LHR about 73.3% as big a market as ATL-LHR.


Youre confusing total O&D with LHR O&D. PHL/ATL-LHR are very similar in size.
Religion is the root of evil...
 
N649DL
Posts: 515
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: Has Delta Ever Run A Daylight ATL-LHR?

Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:01 pm

skipness1E wrote:
N649DL wrote:
Fun fact: Years ago, I want to say 2009ish DL did run an evening ATL-LGW flight alongside the LHR flight shortly after they were allowed to operate it. It operated MCO-ATL-LGW and was on a 763.

There was DL3 JFK-LHR arriving 2110 in Summer 2008 and the following winter moving to a 7am arrival for the summer. Perhaps this is the one you mean?
The daylight flights serve a niche purpose, they offer a way to fly point to point with less jet lag and hence don't offer decent connections at either end.
Currently we see only seven, all East coast with a strong P2P performance. Not something ATL offers to the same levels.
AC868 YYZ-LHR B789
AA142 JFK-LHR B772
AA90 ORD-LHR B788
BA178 JFK-LHR B744/B772
BA238 BOS-LHR B772
UA122 IAD-LHR B752
UA934 EWR-LHR B764


What I meant is how DL was still flying ATL-LGW in addition to the new LHR flight back in 2009ish. ATL-LGW hung around for a while even after the fact LHR was launched, IIRC.

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