Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
Newbiepilot wrote:Didn’t we already have a thread on this? I couldn’t find it but remember an A320neo inflight shutdown thread a few days ago.
maint123 wrote:https://m.timesofindia.com/india/indigo-aircraft-faces-mid-air-engine-failure/articleshow/67279870.cms
Cant copy paste for some reason. Gist is -
Flight from Port Blair to Kolkata.
Pilot observed low oil pressure in engine no 2 and turned back on 1 engine.
3rd incident this month concerning PW engines on neo by memory.
PW lowering temperature of combustion chamber by 40 deg c to tackle similar issues.
PW engines are a joke. They are making changes to the engine of a passenger plane literally on the fly.
And the Indian Air flight safety overseeing dept should be held responsible in case of a mishap for still allowing these planes to fly.
The airlines don't care as they are being compensated by PW.
Who cares about the 100 (approx neo engine flight failures) x 200 = 20000 passengers who have been inconvenienced in the last 1 year ?
unrave wrote:At what point do IndiGo lose their patience and switch to CFM? The silver lining is that, but for the smoke in the cabin incident earlier this month, all engine failures with IndiGo have been with aircraft delivered prior to November 2017, which suggests that the corrective measures employed by PW are indeed working.
PlanesNTrains wrote:maint123 wrote:https://m.timesofindia.com/india/indigo-aircraft-faces-mid-air-engine-failure/articleshow/67279870.cms
Cant copy paste for some reason. Gist is -
Flight from Port Blair to Kolkata.
Pilot observed low oil pressure in engine no 2 and turned back on 1 engine.
3rd incident this month concerning PW engines on neo by memory.
PW lowering temperature of combustion chamber by 40 deg c to tackle similar issues.
PW engines are a joke. They are making changes to the engine of a passenger plane literally on the fly.
And the Indian Air flight safety overseeing dept should be held responsible in case of a mishap for still allowing these planes to fly.
The airlines don't care as they are being compensated by PW.
Who cares about the 100 (approx neo engine flight failures) x 200 = 20000 passengers who have been inconvenienced in the last 1 year ?
To say the airlines don’t care is just your interpretation of something you really don’t understand. Airlines do care about delays, customer complaints, and inflight shutdowns making the news. I understand that its easy to make baseless emotional claims but the reality is that the compensation offered by PW - whatever that may be - does not make it all better.
maint123 wrote:I am only worried about safety. With hundreds of flights per month, what's the probability that both the PW engines eventually fail?
Airbus will wash their hands off as customers chose the engines and PW will claim that we didn't force the customer to fly if they felt unsafe.
As I have previously pointed out, 30 odd overheating note 7 phones resulted in recall of more than a million. In comparison more than 120 PW engines have failed.
What will it take to bell this cat ?
reltney wrote:Yup, damn those engines on all those DC-9s 737-100/200s 707s, DC-8s, 747s, 767s,757s, 727s, Mercure, all the fighter jets powered by the J-57 and variants! Something about all those radial engines like the R-2800 in the Corsair, Thunderbolt, Bearcat, hellcat, tigercat, And the R-4360 on the B-36, c-97, B337, C-74,C124, .........well, I am tired of naming 3/4 of the airplanes in the world. Damn those at Pratt and Whitney for not knowing anything about aircraft engines. Wait, I flew F-16 and could accelerate thru Mach going strait up on a PW engine....DAMN, who wants to do that.... thanks PW for nothing......
maint123 wrote:PlanesNTrains wrote:maint123 wrote:https://m.timesofindia.com/india/indigo-aircraft-faces-mid-air-engine-failure/articleshow/67279870.cms
Cant copy paste for some reason. Gist is -
Flight from Port Blair to Kolkata.
Pilot observed low oil pressure in engine no 2 and turned back on 1 engine.
3rd incident this month concerning PW engines on neo by memory.
PW lowering temperature of combustion chamber by 40 deg c to tackle similar issues.
PW engines are a joke. They are making changes to the engine of a passenger plane literally on the fly.
And the Indian Air flight safety overseeing dept should be held responsible in case of a mishap for still allowing these planes to fly.
The airlines don't care as they are being compensated by PW.
Who cares about the 100 (approx neo engine flight failures) x 200 = 20000 passengers who have been inconvenienced in the last 1 year ?
To say the airlines don’t care is just your interpretation of something you really don’t understand. Airlines do care about delays, customer complaints, and inflight shutdowns making the news. I understand that its easy to make baseless emotional claims but the reality is that the compensation offered by PW - whatever that may be - does not make it all better.
I am only worried about safety. With hundreds of flights per month, what's the probability that both the PW engines eventually fail?
Airbus will wash their hands off as customers chose the engines and PW will claim that we didn't force the customer to fly if they felt unsafe.
As I have previously pointed out, 30 odd overheating note 7 phones resulted in recall of more than a million. In comparison more than 120 PW engines have failed.
What will it take to bell this cat ?
maint123 wrote:PlanesNTrains wrote:maint123 wrote:https://m.timesofindia.com/india/indigo-aircraft-faces-mid-air-engine-failure/articleshow/67279870.cms
Cant copy paste for some reason. Gist is -
Flight from Port Blair to Kolkata.
Pilot observed low oil pressure in engine no 2 and turned back on 1 engine.
3rd incident this month concerning PW engines on neo by memory.
PW lowering temperature of combustion chamber by 40 deg c to tackle similar issues.
PW engines are a joke. They are making changes to the engine of a passenger plane literally on the fly.
And the Indian Air flight safety overseeing dept should be held responsible in case of a mishap for still allowing these planes to fly.
The airlines don't care as they are being compensated by PW.
Who cares about the 100 (approx neo engine flight failures) x 200 = 20000 passengers who have been inconvenienced in the last 1 year ?
To say the airlines don’t care is just your interpretation of something you really don’t understand. Airlines do care about delays, customer complaints, and inflight shutdowns making the news. I understand that its easy to make baseless emotional claims but the reality is that the compensation offered by PW - whatever that may be - does not make it all better.
I am only worried about safety. With hundreds of flights per month, what's the probability that both the PW engines eventually fail?
Airbus will wash their hands off as customers chose the engines and PW will claim that we didn't force the customer to fly if they felt unsafe.
As I have previously pointed out, 30 odd overheating note 7 phones resulted in recall of more than a million. In comparison more than 120 PW engines have failed.
What will it take to bell this cat ?
exFWAOONW wrote:Go read some history. Teething issues are nothing new in aviation or any industry you can name. You can not duplicate every possible operating environment or condition in prototype testing. Best you can hope for is catching the big gotchas.
reltney wrote:Yup, damn those engines on all those DC-9s 737-100/200s 707s, DC-8s, 747s, 767s,757s, 727s, Mercure, all the fighter jets powered by the J-57 and variants! Something about all those radial engines like the R-2800 in the Corsair, Thunderbolt, Bearcat, hellcat, tigercat, And the R-4360 on the B-36, c-97, B337, C-74,C124, .........well, I am tired of naming 3/4 of the airplanes in the world. Damn those at Pratt and Whitney for not knowing anything about aircraft engines. Wait, I flew F-16 and could accelerate thru Mach going strait up on a PW engine....DAMN, who wants to do that.... thanks PW for nothing......
maint123 wrote:PlanesNTrains wrote:maint123 wrote:https://m.timesofindia.com/india/indigo-aircraft-faces-mid-air-engine-failure/articleshow/67279870.cms
Cant copy paste for some reason. Gist is -
Flight from Port Blair to Kolkata.
Pilot observed low oil pressure in engine no 2 and turned back on 1 engine.
3rd incident this month concerning PW engines on neo by memory.
PW lowering temperature of combustion chamber by 40 deg c to tackle similar issues.
PW engines are a joke. They are making changes to the engine of a passenger plane literally on the fly.
And the Indian Air flight safety overseeing dept should be held responsible in case of a mishap for still allowing these planes to fly.
The airlines don't care as they are being compensated by PW.
Who cares about the 100 (approx neo engine flight failures) x 200 = 20000 passengers who have been inconvenienced in the last 1 year ?
To say the airlines don’t care is just your interpretation of something you really don’t understand. Airlines do care about delays, customer complaints, and inflight shutdowns making the news. I understand that its easy to make baseless emotional claims but the reality is that the compensation offered by PW - whatever that may be - does not make it all better.
I am only worried about safety. With hundreds of flights per month, what's the probability that both the PW engines eventually fail?
jupiter2 wrote:How many people here would willingly get on, with no reservations whatsoever, on a PW powered NEO, especially on a long over water sector ?
Personally, I would much rather a CEO or CFM powered NEO. I know statistically it is improbable to experience a dual engine failure on a twin, personally I don't want to experience an engine failure on any aircraft I'm on at all, but at the rate that the PW NEO's experience engine shut downs, the less improbable that statistic becomes. I'm not one for doom and gloom, but these problems have been going on for years, they really should've been sorted out by now. It just seems that PW identify the solution to one of the problems and another then pops up, it appears to be a never ending game of catch up, in an industry that can't afford to play games.
reltney wrote:Let’s look at this from another perspective. It is just the airbus planes from what is published which have the problem.......mmmmmmmmmm
reltney wrote:Yup, damn those engines on all those DC-9s 737-100/200s 707s, DC-8s, 747s, 767s,757s, 727s, Mercure, all the fighter jets powered by the J-57 and variants! Something about all those radial engines like the R-2800 in the Corsair, Thunderbolt, Bearcat, hellcat, tigercat, And the R-4360 on the B-36, c-97, B337, C-74,C124, .........well, I am tired of naming 3/4 of the airplanes in the world. Damn those at Pratt and Whitney for not knowing anything about aircraft engines. Wait, I flew F-16 and could accelerate thru Mach going strait up on a PW engine....DAMN, who wants to do that.... thanks PW for nothing......
par13del wrote:reltney wrote:Let’s look at this from another perspective. It is just the airbus planes from what is published which have the problem.......mmmmmmmmmm
So the fact that the Pratt GTF is only deployed on Airbus a/c in large numbers means nothing...or we can ask it this way, why are there no problems with the GTF on the MAX fleet?
If you want to avoid an A versus B your comment actually creates that.
Natflyer wrote:Its not like CFM hasn´t had its issues. A lot of Leap-1B engines being replaced just a few months old.
par13del wrote:reltney wrote:Let’s look at this from another perspective. It is just the airbus planes from what is published which have the problem.......mmmmmmmmmm
So the fact that the Pratt GTF is only deployed on Airbus a/c in large numbers means nothing...or we can ask it this way, why are there no problems with the GTF on the MAX fleet?
If you want to avoid an A versus B your comment actually creates that.
anshabhi wrote:The aircraft involved, VT-ITE is now grounded for 7 straight days, on an island!
Port Blair is closer to Bangkok than any Indian airport, and I think IndiGo might send a widebody or a ship carrying equipment and engine from there
reltney wrote:Yup, damn those engines on all those DC-9s 737-100/200s 707s, DC-8s, 747s, 767s,757s, 727s, Mercure, all the fighter jets powered by the J-57 and variants! Something about all those radial engines like the R-2800 in the Corsair, Thunderbolt, Bearcat, hellcat, tigercat, And the R-4360 on the B-36, c-97, B337, C-74,C124, .........well, I am tired of naming 3/4 of the airplanes in the world. Damn those at Pratt and Whitney for not knowing anything about aircraft engines. Wait, I flew F-16 and could accelerate thru Mach going strait up on a PW engine....DAMN, who wants to do that.... thanks PW for nothing......
Heinkel wrote:reltney wrote:Yup, damn those engines on all those DC-9s 737-100/200s 707s, DC-8s, 747s, 767s,757s, 727s, Mercure, all the fighter jets powered by the J-57 and variants! Something about all those radial engines like the R-2800 in the Corsair, Thunderbolt, Bearcat, hellcat, tigercat, And the R-4360 on the B-36, c-97, B337, C-74,C124, .........well, I am tired of naming 3/4 of the airplanes in the world. Damn those at Pratt and Whitney for not knowing anything about aircraft engines. Wait, I flew F-16 and could accelerate thru Mach going strait up on a PW engine....DAMN, who wants to do that.... thanks PW for nothing......
Past glory.
Virtually all the men (an maybee a few women) who designed and built these great engines in the past are dead now. No one is working for PW anymore. Success in years gone by is no guaranty for success today and in future.
Heinkel wrote:Past glory.
Virtually all the men (an maybee a few women) who designed and built these great engines in the past are dead now. No one is working for PW anymore. Success in years gone by is no guaranty for success today and in future.
reltney wrote:Yup, damn those engines on all those DC-9s 737-100/200s 707s, DC-8s, 747s, 767s,757s, 727s, Mercure, all the fighter jets powered by the J-57 and variants! Something about all those radial engines like the R-2800 in the Corsair, Thunderbolt, Bearcat, hellcat, tigercat, And the R-4360 on the B-36, c-97, B337, C-74,C124, .........well, I am tired of naming 3/4 of the airplanes in the world. Damn those at Pratt and Whitney for not knowing anything about aircraft engines. Wait, I ,flew F-16 and could accelerate thru Mach going strait up on a PW engine....DAMN, who wants to do that.... thanks PW for nothing......
maint123 wrote:Interesting read on PWs production issues.
What struck me is the use of helicoils in engines !!
So eliminating tapped holes in non critical areas is fine but using helicoils in engines is a first for me.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremyboga ... dd25ab7007
maint123 wrote:Interesting read on PWs production issues.
What struck me is the use of helicoils in engines !!
So eliminating tapped holes in non critical areas is fine but using helicoils in engines is a first for me.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremyboga ... dd25ab7007
airnorth wrote:maint123 wrote:Interesting read on PWs production issues.
What struck me is the use of helicoils in engines !!
So eliminating tapped holes in non critical areas is fine but using helicoils in engines is a first for me.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremyboga ... dd25ab7007
Whats wrong with using helicoil threads?
maint123 wrote:airnorth wrote:maint123 wrote:Interesting read on PWs production issues.
What struck me is the use of helicoils in engines !!
So eliminating tapped holes in non critical areas is fine but using helicoils in engines is a first for me.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremyboga ... dd25ab7007
Whats wrong with using helicoil threads?
In the heavy industry I work in, helicoils are only used when original tapped threads shear and helicoils have to be used if retapping is not possible. We don't consider it a reliable solution.
dtw2hyd wrote:While Indigo may be following PW/DGCA inspection guidelines by the book, by now they should have acquired enough expertise to predict an engine failure. Right now it appears they are using it until it fails. Not a good approach.
smartplane wrote:maint123 wrote:airnorth wrote:Whats wrong with using helicoil threads?
In the heavy industry I work in, helicoils are only used when original tapped threads shear and helicoils have to be used if retapping is not possible. We don't consider it a reliable solution.
Googled aviation helicoils. There's an aviation ISO/SAE standard. Some helicoil materials good for 200,000psi & 700 degrees C.
anshabhi wrote:dtw2hyd wrote:While Indigo may be following PW/DGCA inspection guidelines by the book, by now they should have acquired enough expertise to predict an engine failure. Right now it appears they are using it until it fails. Not a good approach.
I don't see any reason for IndiGo to invest in such a prediction algorithm. It would probably involve analyzing data from every possible sensor that the engine has got, and analyzing them in real time.
I don't think PW engines support IoT related techs by default
They get full compensations from PW in any case for engine failure.
dtw2hyd wrote:anshabhi wrote:dtw2hyd wrote:While Indigo may be following PW/DGCA inspection guidelines by the book, by now they should have acquired enough expertise to predict an engine failure. Right now it appears they are using it until it fails. Not a good approach.
I don't see any reason for IndiGo to invest in such a prediction algorithm. It would probably involve analyzing data from every possible sensor that the engine has got, and analyzing them in real time.
I don't think PW engines support IoT related techs by default
They get full compensations from PW in any case for engine failure.
Not asking 6E to invest in technology or PW to add more monitoring. Good old intuition by an experienced line technician goes a long way.
As others pointed out GTF is not the only modern engine with prolonged adolescence. GE90 is the same, first frame had an uncontained engine failure 14?? days before delivery. Not every airline is lucky enough to have Aditya Ghosh writing contracts which force the manufacturer to replace unlimited engines and a handful of compensation. AI has to drop the engine disassemble the engine, test the failed part and send to manufacturer for warranty replacement. Not a single AI GE90 was swapped even though they had several issues.
maint123 wrote:airnorth wrote:maint123 wrote:Interesting read on PWs production issues.
What struck me is the use of helicoils in engines !!
So eliminating tapped holes in non critical areas is fine but using helicoils in engines is a first for me.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremyboga ... dd25ab7007
Whats wrong with using helicoil threads?
In the heavy industry I work in, helicoils are only used when original tapped threads shear and helicoils have to be used if retapping is not possible. We don't consider it a reliable solution.
par13del wrote:reltney wrote:Let’s look at this from another perspective. It is just the airbus planes from what is published which have the problem.......mmmmmmmmmm
So the fact that the Pratt GTF is only deployed on Airbus a/c in large numbers means nothing...or we can ask it this way, why are there no problems with the GTF on the MAX fleet?
If you want to avoid an A versus B your comment actually creates that.
par13del wrote:reltney wrote:Let’s look at this from another perspective. It is just the airbus planes from what is published which have the problem.......mmmmmmmmmm
So the fact that the Pratt GTF is only deployed on Airbus a/c in large numbers means nothing...or we can ask it this way, why are there no problems with the GTF on the MAX fleet?
If you want to avoid an A versus B your comment actually creates that.