B1168
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Third C919 Took Sky

Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:14 am

Per Chinese Forums, the third C919 (also the first non-prototype) took sky yesterday in PVG.
C919 would be much wider than 737, yet deliver a better efficiency with shorter range, similar to A220 series. Seems like a good news for passengers.
There will be a total of 6 C919 test planes. We will need a new thread for C919 next year.
 
zuckie13
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Re: Third C919 Took Sky

Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:48 am

Ok, I get the width (though its not THAT big a difference, it's basically the same width as an A320, so yes a bit wider than a 737, but not world changing, you get the extra inch you get on the A320). Unless you can promise me a seat pitch of 32 or greater, I'm not gonna care - I hardly notice the width difference when I fly on those types.

I'm more curious to see the actual efficiency they get. What is it about this plane the supposedly gives it this efficiency advantage? Same general engines as the 737/A320. Just materials? How much are we really talking? Also, is this comparison to the MAX/NEO era or to the NG/CEO era?
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Third C919 Took Sky

Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:01 am

B1168 wrote:
C919 would be much wider than 737, yet deliver a better efficiency with shorter range, similar to A220 series. Seems like a good news for passengers.


Except according to specification its range is nothing special. I mean, even the ER version only get you to 3000nmi?

And yes, I failed to see how it's "more efficient". Aerodynamics? It's the same exact engines as A320neo/737MAX, unless you think the CJ-1000A will be that good (But if it turns out to be better than PW/GE, you think Boeing/Airbus won't come and start asking for a version that they can fit onto their planes? For me, if CJ-1000A doesn't break like those RR engines it would already be VERY good.

I'll admit, C919 at least have a better outlook than that dud call ARJ-21, and perhaps, the next iteration could be a very serious competitor against the A/B duopoly, and make it a A/B/C/I(rkut) 4-way battle. I would be happy if C919 doesn't go through the ARJ-21 (or even MRJ or B787) delay after delay after delay.
Free Hong Kong! Free China!
 
tvarad
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Re: Third C919 Took Sky

Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:55 am

I would argue that the success of a commercial airliner depends on it's worldwide support and there's no point in talking about the Chinese and Russian offerings as little more than one-offs until their manufacturers can prove that they are capable of establishing it at the same levels of the Airbus/Boeing duopoly. And that is years if not decades away.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Third C919 Took Sky

Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:52 am

China will force them on Chinese carriers, and client countries in Asia and Africa, then they can establish a support infrastructure from there.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
downdata
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Re: Third C919 Took Sky

Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:20 am

Still moving at a glacial pace though. It has mot proven to be anything other than an arj mark 2 in terms of commercialisation
 
TheKennady2
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Re: Third C919 Took Sky

Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:56 am

Crank em out, i wish Comac all the best, i am tired of the Airbus/Boeing Duopoly with mainline jets. People are forgetting that with the projected growth of Air Travel Just in China, this Airplane could be successful even if it does not fly in the west.
 
TheKennady2
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Re: Third C919 Took Sky

Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:04 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
B1168 wrote:
C919 would be much wider than 737, yet deliver a better efficiency with shorter range, similar to A220 series. Seems like a good news for passengers.


Except according to specification its range is nothing special. I mean, even the ER version only get you to 3000nmi?

And yes, I failed to see how it's "more efficient". Aerodynamics? It's the same exact engines as A320neo/737MAX, unless you think the CJ-1000A will be that good (But if it turns out to be better than PW/GE, you think Boeing/Airbus won't come and start asking for a version that they can fit onto their planes? For me, if CJ-1000A doesn't break like those RR engines it would already be VERY good.

I'll admit, C919 at least have a better outlook than that dud call ARJ-21, and perhaps, the next iteration could be a very serious competitor against the A/B duopoly, and make it a A/B/C/I(rkut) 4-way battle. I would be happy if C919 doesn't go through the ARJ-21 (or even MRJ or B787) delay after delay after delay.


I would not call the ARJ-21 a dud just yet, its a niche airplane that has yet to gain any reputation besides its many delays. Its not the same as a mainline jet, its a regional so we will have wait and see if its economics and reliability stand the test of time. Comac is only a 10 years old company, i did not expect them to be seriously competitive at this time anyway.
 
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CARST
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Re: Third C919 Took Sky

Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:57 am

B1168 wrote:
C919 would be much wider than 737, yet deliver a better efficiency with shorter range, similar to A220 series.


I'll eat a broom if the Chinese manage to shell out a passenger airplane more efficient than A320s or 737s. That's just not gonna happen.

They might come close, but not close enough to make any privately owned airline ordering them, except if there's massive bribing included.

That thing will sell in China, probably Russia and perhaps some countries with state owned airline which get forced to by them by economical pressure. That's about it.
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: Third C919 Took Sky

Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:29 pm

Aesma wrote:
China will force them on Chinese carriers, and client countries in Asia and Africa, then they can establish a support infrastructure from there.


Agree. China is playing a long game.
 
travaz
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Re: Third C919 Took Sky

Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:38 pm

TheKennady2 wrote:
Crank em out, i wish Comac all the best, i am tired of the Airbus/Boeing Duopoly with mainline jets. People are forgetting that with the projected growth of Air Travel Just in China, this Airplane could be successful even if it does not fly in the west.


Is this the start of the A vs B vs C fight on Anet?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Third C919 Took Sky

Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:42 pm

TheKennady2 wrote:
I would not call the ARJ-21 a dud just yet, its a niche airplane that has yet to gain any reputation besides its many delays. Its not the same as a mainline jet, its a regional so we will have wait and see if its economics and reliability stand the test of time. Comac is only a 10 years old company, i did not expect them to be seriously competitive at this time anyway.


The ARJ is in service and you need two to do the job of one. Lightsaber I think knows it well and said he would never set foot on one.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Third C919 Took Sky

Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:50 pm

TheKennady2 wrote:
I would not call the ARJ-21 a dud just yet, its a niche airplane that has yet to gain any reputation besides its many delays. Its not the same as a mainline jet, its a regional so we will have wait and see if its economics and reliability stand the test of time. Comac is only a 10 years old company, i did not expect them to be seriously competitive at this time anyway.


Except none of the major Chinese carriers (CZ/CA/MU) even bother with it, not even buying some for their regional subsidiaries?

CARST wrote:
That thing will sell in China, probably Russia and perhaps some countries with state owned airline which get forced to by them by economical pressure. That's about it.


You forgot that Russia has their own narrowbody call Irkut MC-21.

I can certainly see some C919 flying for some obscure airlines in Africa, and perhaps some 3rd tier airlines in ASEAN. That's about it in short-term, though, unless they turned out to be reliable, cheap, and efficient enough, and MoL decide to buy 300 of them to replace the rest of the 738 fleet of FR.
Free Hong Kong! Free China!
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Third C919 Took Sky

Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:36 am

Aesma wrote:
China will force them on Chinese carriers, and client countries in Asia and Africa, then they can establish a support infrastructure from there.


This is why we shouldn't cheer too hard for these to fail. They're going to be produced and used no matter what, might as well hope they are safe and efficient. They are also using tech developed for the c-series so there is a chance they won't be a dud.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Third C919 Took Sky

Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:08 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
TheKennady2 wrote:
I would not call the ARJ-21 a dud just yet, its a niche airplane that has yet to gain any reputation besides its many delays. Its not the same as a mainline jet, its a regional so we will have wait and see if its economics and reliability stand the test of time. Comac is only a 10 years old company, i did not expect them to be seriously competitive at this time anyway.


Except none of the major Chinese carriers (CZ/CA/MU) even bother with it, not even buying some for their regional subsidiaries?

CARST wrote:
That thing will sell in China, probably Russia and perhaps some countries with state owned airline which get forced to by them by economical pressure. That's about it.


You forgot that Russia has their own narrowbody call Irkut MC-21.

I can certainly see some C919 flying for some obscure airlines in Africa, and perhaps some 3rd tier airlines in ASEAN. That's about it in short-term, though, unless they turned out to be reliable, cheap, and efficient enough, and MoL decide to buy 300 of them to replace the rest of the 738 fleet of FR.

regional flying in China would be a good testing ground for the airplane. Get 9-12 cycles per day and assess the problems locally before sending it abroad. If it works in the grueline Russian winter? It should work damn near Anywhere assuming they can factory support it as that's been where they're lacking as compared to Boeing and Airbus.. In the US? I'd advise them to offer 5 year walkaway leases to get them into the conversation. Airbus did that with United for the A320/A319's and They're still flying in United's colors 15 years Later!!
 
arcticcruiser
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Re: Third C919 Took Sky

Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:18 am

Third C919 took sky


Ah, C919 please return sky. Thank you.
 
c933103
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Re: Third C919 Took Sky

Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:37 am

strfyr51 wrote:
regional flying in China would be a good testing ground for the airplane. Get 9-12 cycles per day and assess the problems locally before sending it abroad.

Is there any aircraft that can fly that much a day in China, given the airspace congestion and also the lack of short route due to string competition from ground based means of travelling?
If it works in the grueline Russian winter? It should work damn near Anywhere assuming they can factory support it as that's been where they're lacking as compared to Boeing and Airbus..

Their current operation in Northeastern China was intended to achieve the same thing.
But them the aircraft seems to be still under constant testing just a few days ago on the day after Christmas, they claims it have successfully conducted manned over water flight at Hainan.
In the US? I'd advise them to offer 5 year walkaway leases to get them into the conversation. Airbus did that with United for the A320/A319's and They're still flying in United's colors 15 years Later!!

You're saying that as if the aircraft can make it pass the FAA approval process
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Third C919 Took Sky

Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:14 pm

Aesma wrote:
China will force them on Chinese carriers, and client countries in Asia and Africa, then they can establish a support infrastructure from there.

And will delete any critical post from social media and punish any mainline media that would post anything critical, so they'll have a few billion people thinking this thing is flawless.

In other words, another day in the PRC.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Third C919 Took Sky

Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:39 pm

Revelation wrote:
Aesma wrote:
China will force them on Chinese carriers, and client countries in Asia and Africa, then they can establish a support infrastructure from there.

And will delete any critical post from social media and punish any mainline media that would post anything critical, so they'll have a few billion people thinking this thing is flawless.

In other words, another day in the PRC.


Depends. I've seen plenty of comments on CARNOC more or less jokes about both the ARJ and C919. Well, maybe the internet police are not quick enough :white:

Ultimately, netizens in PRC doesn't always just go "Praise CCP and follow the beliefs of 19th Committee" after all :scratchchin: :scratchchin: . If anything, I believe the only thing netizens make fun of more is the Chinese National Football Team, aka the "shame of the country" :white:

And come on, it's not about "forcing them onto Chinese carrier", it's about using state money to support a state project. MU/CZ/CA are majority own by the PRC gov't anyway, so nothing wrong with handing money from left hand to right hand :spin: . That and Chinese carriers can then easily dispatch those planes onto some 3rd tier routes (You think for a minute that MU/CZ/CA are going to use this plane on something like PEK-SHA?)
Free Hong Kong! Free China!
 
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neutrino
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Re: Third C919 Took Sky

Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:27 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
And come on, it's not about "forcing them onto Chinese carrier", it's about using state money to support a state project. MU/CZ/CA are majority own by the PRC gov't anyway, so nothing wrong with handing money from left hand to right hand :spin: .

Appreciate the effort in trying to educate the misinformed, ill-informed and un-informed, but it's going to be a thankless uphill task as there are many born every minute.
Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
 
c933103
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Re: Third C919 Took Sky

Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:03 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Aesma wrote:
China will force them on Chinese carriers, and client countries in Asia and Africa, then they can establish a support infrastructure from there.

And will delete any critical post from social media and punish any mainline media that would post anything critical, so they'll have a few billion people thinking this thing is flawless.

In other words, another day in the PRC.


Depends. I've seen plenty of comments on CARNOC more or less jokes about both the ARJ and C919. Well, maybe the internet police are not quick enough :white:

Ultimately, netizens in PRC doesn't always just go "Praise CCP and follow the beliefs of 19th Committee" after all :scratchchin: :scratchchin: . If anything, I believe the only thing netizens make fun of more is the Chinese National Football Team, aka the "shame of the country" :white:

Well yeah, complaints can be made in China as long as it won't turn into something actionable

neutrino wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
And come on, it's not about "forcing them onto Chinese carrier", it's about using state money to support a state project. MU/CZ/CA are majority own by the PRC gov't anyway, so nothing wrong with handing money from left hand to right hand :spin: .

Appreciate the effort in trying to educate the misinformed, ill-informed and un-informed, but it's going to be a thankless uphill task as there are many born every minute.

But that's also what the west is dissatisfied about China, using state money to subsidize state project and then compete on private market against western private firm. Granted Boeing and Airbus receives a lot of government projects and various form of supports too but that's on different order of magnitude.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Third C919 Took Sky

Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:12 am

The certification will show how serious they are. If they achieve FAA and EASA certification the plane will be competitive. And I am certain they will be much more efficient in building a working support structure for it than the Russians.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Third C919 Took Sky

Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:44 am

Well they also intended to blackmail the West into giving FAA and EASA certificates without doing the actual work, we'll see how that goes now.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams

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