rainaviation
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:43 pm

joeblow10 wrote:
Uh... SY already runs PDX-HNL


Yes, this is the first year and it was only going to be a seasonal winter service. Apparently SY has very good loads with HNL because now HNL is year round with flights from PDX and LAX in the summer. They have even hinted starting SFO-HNL next summer as well...
 
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FA9295
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:12 pm

rainaviation wrote:
They have even hinted starting SFO-HNL next summer as well...

Where have you heard that from?
 
BML87
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:13 pm

What does DL offer at SEA to YEG pax that isn't already covered? Anyone going to Asia or Hawaii would go through YVR. LAX, SFO, LAS, PHX, PSP, OGG are all covered nonstop and any other connections to the PNW would be covered by AS.
 
JAMBOJET
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:15 pm

Thanks for all the effort Enilria, always love these every Sunday.
 
gwrudolph
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:21 pm

continental004 wrote:
many321 wrote:
Can anyone venture on why DL cut LAX-SAL since every time I've taken that flight, it's always been full. I highly doubt it's JV venture with AM.


Probably low yields, traffic to SAL is generally low-yield VFR and AV has the upper hand.


Yep. US carriers can’t seem to make it work. UA pulled off of LAX-SAL many years ago as well.
 
rainaviation
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:22 pm

FA9295 wrote:
rainaviation wrote:
They have even hinted starting SFO-HNL next summer as well...

Where have you heard that from?


From an AirlineGeeks.com article, they say that "However, the airline did state it is currently in talks to open service to Washington Dulles Airport from Minneapolis, which would be the first mainline service between Dulles and Minneapolis, giving Washington-area passengers more options for flying to the West Coast ... currently flying summer seasonal service from Portland and Los Angeles, while strongly hinting at the addition of San Francisco as well."

Here is the article link: https://airlinegeeks.com/2018/12/14/her ... t-carrier/

Quite interesting actually. I want to know who airlinegeeks talked to at Sun Country. I think if they can really hit the HNL market hard, they will be able to get ahead of WN in the market. Adding or even SAN would be possible for SY. Maybe that is too optimistic :)
Last edited by rainaviation on Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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knope2001
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:29 am

Thanks as always, enilria!

KarlB737 wrote:
enilria wrote:

DL AZO-DTW JUN 5>1.8[5]
DL AZO-MSP JUN 1.7>0.6[1.7]


Whoa !! that's quite a slashing. Is no one using Delta's service.


MIflyer12 wrote:
Early death throes of another small airport. AZO travelers can drive an hour to GRR which has more than 10x the passenger count.


FlyingElvii wrote:
Or SBN.
The Kazoo area is a primary victim of overseas outforcing. Once home to several Fortune 500 hq’s (Whirlpool, Kellogg, Case, etc.) and numerous large factories, it was a wealthy area. All of that is gone now.


UALifer wrote:
Go back a couple weeks and you’ll notice AA and UA also removed quite a bit of their ORD service in June. I believe AZO is closing for a few weeks in June to do some runway construction.


UALifer is right -- AZO is closing between June 10 and June 26 for runway work. 2018 YTD traffic at AZO is up about 3.3% so no, the airport isn't dying.

https://wkzo.com/news/articles/2018/dec ... r-2-weeks/

FWIW quite a few years back when ATW had a similar shutdown flights were moved to OSH for that period. I wonder if there was any serious consideration to running flights out of BTL during the shutdown which is 18 miles up the road? One difference is that I believe OSH still had minimal commercial flights at the time while BTL hasn't had flights in quite a few years, so security costs might make the idea a nonstarter. Might be a technological and logistical nonstarter too. Seems a shame to shut down in the busy summer peak rather than, say September but perhaps they need a certain period for curing before temperatures start to drop.
Last edited by knope2001 on Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Bingo1
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:49 am

Cubsrule wrote:
Bingo1 wrote:
Side note. What did NW do different that DL is not doing in regards to Canadian and Western Canadian traffic? They've ceded the bulk of the transborder traffic to UA and given up on many routes and cities since the merger. I only know of one city in Western Canada (YXE) that has similar daily seat counts today compared to pre-merger.


It’s a “have” more so than a “do.” On NW, western Canada basically had to be served by an Airbus to MSP. DL has three or four hubs and gobs of aircraft from which to choose, so can better match capacity to demand. It’s the same reason NW flew 744s on stuff like DTW-NGO.


That wasn't the reason. Sure maybe Delta now has a broader range of aircraft overall but with NWA all of Western Canada saw a mix of A320/A319 all the way down to the DC-9's. Hey even YXE would see some 757's during hunting season. That is broader seat range then DL is doing in Western Canada now. I can see why getting rid of the Saabs would make airports like YQT, YXU, and YQF unfeasible but I've been amazed how DL has closed routes and dramatically cut seats on long time routes they've inherited or operated themselves pre-merger. They've gone from being the go-to airline for transborder travel to just another airline.

Correction. Not sure if YVR saw the DC-9's
Planecrzy
 
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:56 am

GSP psgr wrote:
TransWorldOne wrote:
Delta dropping SEA-YEG is interesting, any idea if it's just going seasonal? They seem to struggle in SEA and I can't help but wonder if their hub there is sustainable. Also, SEA-MCO continues to struggle to maintain daily service.


I've always thought it slightly strange that Delta doesn't do SLC-YEG. Perhaps with the new WestJet partnership and the new SLC terminal complex, we will see it soon.


DL formerly flew that route with a CR2. The only time I flew it was about 12 years ago. I would welcome it back, even as a single daily. Some of the connecting traffic to Western USA that would be gained by that flight is now being carried by WJ and their flight to LAX. The remainder is routed through MSP so not sure about the feasibility of it long term
Planecrzy
 
Brickell305
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:00 am

Interesting on UA going daily on EWR-POS. They’ve essentially been an afterthought on NYC-POS after BW and B6. I’m almost certain that AA carries more NYC-POS (over MIA) than they do. Interesting that they’ve decided to compete there with increased competition from B6 now. They have the lucrative IAH-POS to themselves. Don’t really see what they get out of increased NYC-POS.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:13 am

enilria wrote:
Thanks. You really don't think it has taken an unusually long time for WN to be able to add Hawaii service? Or code share?

Or effectively sell tickets outside the United States?

2Q2018 % Originating traffic in MEX
AA 38.1%
B6 47.4%
UA 39.2%
WN 24.9%

This is why they gave slots back. I have to wonder how many of those originating tickets were even sold in Pesos. Probably close to zero


Thanks enilria.
Just curious, how did you get the stats of MEX originating traffic?

PlanesNTrains wrote:
TransWorldOne wrote:
Delta dropping SEA-YEG is interesting, any idea if it's just going seasonal? They seem to struggle in SEA and I can't help but wonder if their hub there is sustainable. Also, SEA-MCO continues to struggle to maintain daily service.


Just curious what the evidence is that they struggle in SEA?

I've looked at about 15 to 20 routes i think out of SEA for Q2, AS still has yield advantage on almost all of the non-DL major hubs (ATL/DTW/MSP/SLC/JFK). That tells me DL is having a hard time winning over point of sale at SEA against AS. On some of the important west coast routes out of SEA like ANC/PDX/SFO/LAX, DL either has to fly regional to match AS mainline yield or has noticeable yield disadvantage. And when consider the cost of DL regional vs AS mainline, that means significantly worse margin.

SUNCTRY738 wrote:
TransWorldOne wrote:
Delta dropping SEA-YEG is interesting, any idea if it's just going seasonal? They seem to struggle in SEA and I can't help but wonder if their hub there is sustainable. Also, SEA-MCO continues to struggle to maintain daily service.


I thought we were past these ridiculous posts about DL failing in SEA. Pretty much every negative prediction made on here since DL started the SEA build up has been wrong.

DL is willing to loose money on SEA
 
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enilria
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:15 am

knope2001 wrote:
Thanks as always, enilria!

JAMBOJET wrote:
Thanks for all the effort Enilria, always love these every Sunday.

Thanks.
As people get thinner and thinner skin, I frequently consider whether to end it.
tphuang wrote:
Just curious, how did you get the stats of MEX originating traffic?

It's officially MIDT, but I suspect they use DB1B to correct the stats for LCCs.
 
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AVLAirlineFreq
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:19 am

enilria wrote:
knope2001 wrote:
Thanks as always, enilria!

JAMBOJET wrote:
Thanks for all the effort Enilria, always love these every Sunday.

Thanks.
As people get thinner and thinner skin, I frequently consider whether to end it.


This thread is a highlight of the week for me. Your work really is so welcome and valued.
 
Planeboy17
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:28 am

enilria wrote:
knope2001 wrote:
Thanks as always, enilria!

JAMBOJET wrote:
Thanks for all the effort Enilria, always love these every Sunday.

Thanks.
As people get thinner and thinner skin, I frequently consider whether to end it.
tphuang wrote:
Just curious, how did you get the stats of MEX originating traffic?

It's officially MIDT, but I suspect they use DB1B to correct the stats for LCCs.

Thank you as always for doing this!
I look forward to it every Sunday.
Please don’t let the fringe ruin a lot of people’s joy.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:28 am

Your thread is excellent for presenting the factual schedule changes.
Its one of the few, factual, data-driven posts that shows schedule changes and a basis for a lot of good discussion and/or refuting the trolls stupid claims.

Some of the ridiculous commentary, fanboyism, and stupidity posted in the thread (and all of a.net in general) by some people is annoying but you get the good with the bad.

(e.g., See this week's comments about AZO. Some posters come in and gloat about the the sky is falling and then people in the know comment that its due to a runway construction project).
 
axiom
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:36 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Your thread is excellent for presenting the factual schedule changes.
Its one of the few, factual, data-driven posts that shows schedule changes and a basis for a lot of good discussion and/or refuting the trolls stupid claims.

Some of the ridiculous commentary, fanboyism, and stupidity posted in the thread (and all of a.net in general) by some people is annoying but you get the good with the bad.

(e.g., See this week's comments about AZO. Some posters come in and gloat about the the sky is falling and then people in the know comment that its due to a runway construction project).


+1. I really enjoy this thread. A true highlight.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:36 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
KarlB737 wrote:

Whoa !! that's quite a slashing. Is no one using Delta's service.


Early death throes of another small airport. AZO travelers can drive an hour to GRR which has more than 10x the passenger count.

Or SBN.
The Kazoo area is a primary victim of overseas outforcing. Once home to several Fortune 500 hq’s (Whirlpool, Kellogg, Case, etc.) and numerous large factories, it was a wealthy area. All of that is gone now.


Kellogg's HQ is in Battle Creek. Whirlpool HQ is in Benton Harbor. Neither of them have moved anywhere (and Whirlpool has acquired a number of it's competitors). Area seems to be doing fine. The biggest loss was probably the Upjohn merger, but that was a number of years ago.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:31 am

tphuang wrote:
DL is willing to loose money on SEA

Yep. :checkmark:
And I really don't understand why. Is the fight with AS really worth it? AS will always be the dominant airline at SEA, and that's probably never going to change, so what's in it for DL? Obviously some routes are making money, but I would think that so much competition would hinder an operation more than enhance it. I guess they're just trying to lower AS's yields as much as they can, but I'm sure there are bigger fish to fry, such as enhancing their LAX hub.

But I'm just an amateur, and DL obviously knows what they're doing.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:40 am

Bingo1 wrote:
GSP psgr wrote:
TransWorldOne wrote:
Delta dropping SEA-YEG is interesting, any idea if it's just going seasonal? They seem to struggle in SEA and I can't help but wonder if their hub there is sustainable. Also, SEA-MCO continues to struggle to maintain daily service.


I've always thought it slightly strange that Delta doesn't do SLC-YEG. Perhaps with the new WestJet partnership and the new SLC terminal complex, we will see it soon.


DL formerly flew that route with a CR2. The only time I flew it was about 12 years ago. I would welcome it back, even as a single daily. Some of the connecting traffic to Western USA that would be gained by that flight is now being carried by WJ and their flight to LAX. The remainder is routed through MSP so not sure about the feasibility of it long term


I remember DL used to fly 727-200's on the SLC-YEG route.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:43 am

BML87 wrote:
What does DL offer at SEA to YEG pax that isn't already covered? Anyone going to Asia or Hawaii would go through YVR. LAX, SFO, LAS, PHX, PSP, OGG are all covered nonstop and any other connections to the PNW would be covered by AS.


It provided an alternative airline on the route, especially for those Skymiles customers and Skyteam customers. But it appears the service was not sustainable. So DL will put those E-175's elsewhere.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:44 am

tphuang wrote:
DL is willing to loose money on SEA


No they aren't. DL is not stupid.

Cutting unprofitable routes such SEA-HKG and now SEA-YEG is precisely because they are not willing to lose money in SEA.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
wedgetail737
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:49 am

BA wrote:
tphuang wrote:
DL is willing to loose money on SEA


No they aren't. DL is not stupid.

Cutting unprofitable routes such SEA-HKG and now SEA-YEG is precisely because they are not willing to lose money in SEA.


Hopefully DL will do better on the re-instatement of the SEA-KIX route.
 
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FA9295
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:54 am

BA wrote:
tphuang wrote:
DL is willing to loose money on SEA


No they aren't. DL is not stupid.

Cutting unprofitable routes such SEA-HKG and now SEA-YEG is precisely because they are not willing to lose money in SEA.

The bigger picture is competition with AS. Not specific unprofitable routes.

In entering a market like SEA where AS clearly has dominance in (along with their international partner airlines), puts DL's yields in jeopardy. Now, if SEA wasn't successful for DL, then they obviously wouldn't have the kind of operation that they do have today.

There's no question that SEA is successful for DL, but they can only do so much there due to limited gate space and a strong dominance by a strong competitor, AS.
 
wedgetail737
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:18 am

FA9295 wrote:
BA wrote:
tphuang wrote:
DL is willing to loose money on SEA


No they aren't. DL is not stupid.

Cutting unprofitable routes such SEA-HKG and now SEA-YEG is precisely because they are not willing to lose money in SEA.

The bigger picture is competition with AS. Not specific unprofitable routes.

In entering a market like SEA where AS clearly has dominance in (along with their international partner airlines), puts DL's yields in jeopardy. Now, if SEA wasn't successful for DL, then they obviously wouldn't have the kind of operation that they do have today.

There's no question that SEA is successful for DL, but they can only do so much there due to limited gate space and a strong dominance by a strong competitor, AS.


DL's presence at SEA is ever-evolving. However, I don't think DL has announced any new routes out of SEA except for the re-instatement of SEA-KIX.
 
AirFiero
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:43 pm

FA9295 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
DL is willing to loose money on SEA

Yep. :checkmark:
And I really don't understand why. Is the fight with AS really worth it? AS will always be the dominant airline at SEA, and that's probably never going to change, so what's in it for DL? Obviously some routes are making money, but I would think that so much competition would hinder an operation more than enhance it. I guess they're just trying to lower AS's yields as much as they can, but I'm sure there are bigger fish to fry, such as enhancing their LAX hub.

But I'm just an amateur, and DL obviously knows what they're doing.


Doesn’t DL run several flights to the Far East and Hawaii through SEA? I would think feeding those flights would be what is in it for them. AS has no service to the Far East, and doesn’t seem to have any plans to start or planes in the pipeline if they wanted to.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:53 pm

Enilria Ty for your contributions to this forum and thread. I look forward to reading it each week
 
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:04 pm

BA wrote:
No they aren't. DL is not stupid.

Cutting unprofitable routes such SEA-HKG and now SEA-YEG is precisely because they are not willing to lose money in SEA.


DL - along with likely every airline out there - is willing to lose money to implement a long-term strategic plan. They did it for years in NYC, and it's a good bet SEA is also money-losing at this point.
 
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OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:14 pm

georgiabill wrote:
Enilria Ty for your contributions to this forum and thread. I look forward to reading it each week


I'll echo this statement in saying that I do as well. While I do agree with some posters here that the additional commentary comes across as peculiar at times, the time and effort to compile the data is much appreciated.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:20 pm

:checkmark:
n562wn wrote:
georgiabill wrote:
Enilria Ty for your contributions to this forum and thread. I look forward to reading it each week


I'll echo this statement in saying that I do as well. While I do agree with some posters here that the additional commentary comes across as peculiar at times, the time and effort to compile the data is much appreciated.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


:checkmark:
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:27 pm

Bingo1 wrote:
GSP psgr wrote:
TransWorldOne wrote:
Delta dropping SEA-YEG is interesting, any idea if it's just going seasonal? They seem to struggle in SEA and I can't help but wonder if their hub there is sustainable. Also, SEA-MCO continues to struggle to maintain daily service.


I've always thought it slightly strange that Delta doesn't do SLC-YEG. Perhaps with the new WestJet partnership and the new SLC terminal complex, we will see it soon.


DL formerly flew that route with a CR2. The only time I flew it was about 12 years ago. I would welcome it back, even as a single daily. Some of the connecting traffic to Western USA that would be gained by that flight is now being carried by WJ and their flight to LAX. The remainder is routed through MSP so not sure about the feasibility of it long term


I could see it working, between whatever O&D is on the route and connections to the Mountain West, California (secondary LA markets), and Texas. Call it a once daily CR7?
 
BA
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:39 pm

wedgetail737 wrote:
Hopefully DL will do better on the re-instatement of the SEA-KIX route.


I'm skeptical, but the advantage this time around is the much increased feed available compared to what DL had in 2013 when they cut the route. We shall see...

FA9295 wrote:
The bigger picture is competition with AS. Not specific unprofitable routes.

In entering a market like SEA where AS clearly has dominance in (along with their international partner airlines), puts DL's yields in jeopardy. Now, if SEA wasn't successful for DL, then they obviously wouldn't have the kind of operation that they do have today.

There's no question that SEA is successful for DL, but they can only do so much there due to limited gate space and a strong dominance by a strong competitor, AS.


I do think AS has proven to be a much tougher competitor to "break" than DL anticipated. That combined with capacity constraints at Sea-Tac may have tampered some of DL's ambitions, but nonetheless, DL has still built an impressive operation and has become a formidable competitor to AS.

I think the past few years have shown that the SEA market is large enough to sustain both AS and DL hubs. I remember back when DL started its hub build up, there were critics on both sides saying that one is going to concede. So far there is no evidence to suggest that this is going to happen.

Part of I think what's helped both DL and AS coexist, is the organic growth SEA has seen over the past few years, with both airlines (as well as others) capitalizing on that local market growth.

There's a lot of sensationalism on Airliners.net. Airlines add and remove routes all the time in order to maximize performance, but for some reason when it comes to DL and SEA, when 1 or 2 routes are not successful and are dropped, there is hysteria with naysayers saying it's "proof" that DL's hub in SEA is failing, disregarding the big picture looking at the growth and additions DL has made.

DL has in the past cut routes from its prized ATL hub, does this mean ATL is failing? Of course not.

If we start seeing a net reduction in capacity by DL in SEA, then that might be a sign of trouble.

MSPNWA wrote:
DL - along with likely every airline out there - is willing to lose money to implement a long-term strategic plan. They did it for years in NYC, and it's a good bet SEA is also money-losing at this point.


Making a long-term investment which requires upfront costs and losses with the goals of long-term profits, is not the same as "willing to lose money." When you as an individual buy stocks of a company, you do so with the intention of profiting, despite the upfront costs and potential losses in the beginning. You don't buy stocks with the intention to "lose money."

DL came to SEA with the intention of making a profit, not to lose money. That means they've established criteria on performance and returns and if those aren't met, they make adjustments as necessary, which is exactly what they're doing. Delta gave SEA-HKG a 4-year run, when they launched HKG, they probably were willing to sustain losses in the beginning, but not 4-years after its launch, which means performance goals for the route were not met, so they made the decision to cut it.

SEA-YEG, may or may have never been profitable for them. It's possible that at one point it was profitable, but with the new joint venture with WestJet established last year, it no longer is profitable and DL sees no signs of this changing, so they made the decision to cut it.

I don't agree with you that SEA, as a whole, is money-losing now. To sustain such a large operation for this long, at a loss, this far along is highly unlikely. If this were the case, I think we'd be seeing a lot of volatility in DL's SEA schedule with their route planners aggressively trying to boost performance.

Some people make it sound like DL is in SEA just to crush AS, for prestige purposes, to have a solid west coast hub besides LAX, with no real profit or performance goals. These notions are ridiculous.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
MSPNWA
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:08 pm

BA wrote:
Making a long-term investment which requires upfront costs and losses with the goals of long-term profits, is not the same as "willing to lose money." When you as an individual buy stocks of a company, you do so with the intention of profiting, despite the upfront costs and potential losses in the beginning. You don't buy stocks with the intention to "lose money."

DL came to SEA with the intention of making a profit, not to lose money. That means they've established criteria on performance and returns and if those aren't met, they make adjustments as necessary, which is exactly what they're doing. Delta gave SEA-HKG a 4-year run, when they launched HKG, they probably were willing to sustain losses in the beginning, but not 4-years after its launch, which means performance goals for the route were not met, so they made the decision to cut it.

SEA-YEG, may or may have never been profitable for them. It's possible that at one point it was profitable, but with the new joint venture with WestJet established last year, it no longer is profitable and DL sees no signs of this changing, so they made the decision to cut it.

I don't agree with you that SEA, as a whole, is money-losing now. To sustain such a large operation for this long, at a loss, this far along is highly unlikely. If this were the case, I think we'd be seeing a lot of volatility in DL's SEA schedule with their route planners aggressively trying to boost performance.

Some people make it sound like DL is in SEA just to crush AS, for prestige purposes, to have a solid west coast hub besides LAX, with no real profit or performance goals. These notions are ridiculous.


It certainly appears the "willing to lose money" you responded to was in the context of a long-term buildup. I don't see anyone making the wild assertion that airlines are willing to lose money just for the fun of it.

Since we know that airlines are willing to lose money for strategic gains, unless you have insider knowledge, one can't make the conclusion that the fly/cut line is at the profit/loss line. For an illustration, DL's adjustments could be a situation of a route running at a 10% loss with no trend that shows a path to improvement. We don't know exactly what their decision is based off.
 
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enilria
Topic Author
Posts: 9485
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:44 pm

n562wn wrote:
georgiabill wrote:
Enilria Ty for your contributions to this forum and thread. I look forward to reading it each week


I'll echo this statement in saying that I do as well. While I do agree with some posters here that the additional commentary comes across as peculiar at times, the time and effort to compile the data is much appreciated.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

See when people complain about me giving commentary, what I hear in my head is "STFU and give us our free data". That's what makes me think, why bother...
 
Aliqiout
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:57 pm

enilria wrote:
n562wn wrote:
georgiabill wrote:
Enilria Ty for your contributions to this forum and thread. I look forward to reading it each week


I'll echo this statement in saying that I do as well. While I do agree with some posters here that the additional commentary comes across as peculiar at times, the time and effort to compile the data is much appreciated.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

See when people complain about me giving commentary, what I hear in my head is "STFU and give us our free data". That's what makes me think, why bother...

I certainly think you have the right to comment, but I hope you dont see disagreements with your comments as ungreatfullness for the information you provide.
 
n562wn
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:50 pm

Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:45 pm

enilria wrote:
n562wn wrote:
georgiabill wrote:
Enilria Ty for your contributions to this forum and thread. I look forward to reading it each week


I'll echo this statement in saying that I do as well. While I do agree with some posters here that the additional commentary comes across as peculiar at times, the time and effort to compile the data is much appreciated.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

See when people complain about me giving commentary, what I hear in my head is "STFU and give us our free data". That's what makes me think, why bother...


I hear ya. That's why I've refrained from really responding in negative fashion to your contributions to the community. I'm not sure if you work for an airline or not, but it can be easy to let emotions take over when someone says something 'presumably' negative about your brand. ( I myself have been guilty of this in the past.)

Your efforts provide interesting discussion and insight into the airline landscape as a whole. Don't let a little fanboyism discourage you, as you have just as much of a right to share your thoughts and opinions as anyone else on these forums.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:59 pm

enilria wrote:
n562wn wrote:
georgiabill wrote:
Enilria Ty for your contributions to this forum and thread. I look forward to reading it each week


I'll echo this statement in saying that I do as well. While I do agree with some posters here that the additional commentary comes across as peculiar at times, the time and effort to compile the data is much appreciated.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

See when people complain about me giving commentary, what I hear in my head is "STFU and give us our free data". That's what makes me think, why bother...


Enilria, without a doubt the weekly thread you create is among the most appreciated on a.net, and I personally look forward to and appreciate its arrival.

However, i don’t see how that precludes pushback against your commentary? I don’t think anyone can expect to start a thread, no matter how valuable, and be shielded from disagreement over commentary. However, I’ll personally just make the effort not to partipate in the thread and see if that’s helpful.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:06 pm

I am surprised to see UA adding more flights from EWR to the Caribbean in hurricane season. Who flies to the Bahamas July through September?
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3638
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:06 pm

I am surprised to see UA adding more flights from EWR to the Caribbean in hurricane season. Who flies to the Bahamas July through September?
 
alfa164
Posts: 2912
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:53 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
I am surprised to see UA adding more flights from EWR to the Caribbean in hurricane season. Who flies to the Bahamas July through September?

United does... obviously...

;)
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3638
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:58 pm

alfa164 wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
I am surprised to see UA adding more flights from EWR to the Caribbean in hurricane season. Who flies to the Bahamas July through September?

United does... obviously...

;)


Haha, I was wondering what type of person is riding in those planes other than people fleeing hurricanes
 
alfa164
Posts: 2912
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:04 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
I am surprised to see UA adding more flights from EWR to the Caribbean in hurricane season. Who flies to the Bahamas July through September?

United does... obviously...
;)

Haha, I was wondering what type of person is riding in those planes other than people fleeing hurricanes


I understand! I suspect that with the Atlantis Resorts promoting themselves so heavily - and, I am sure, offering their biggest discounts during this time - many people book a trip without even realizing that "hurricane season" exists.


"Atlantis" has become almost synonymous with "the Bahamas", to the extent that downtown Nassau, which was once a thriving, vibrant area, is almost totally boarded up. Only a cruise ship market area exists now... it is a pity, because the center of Nassau had the look and feel of a real outpost of Mother England only a few decades ago.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2328
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:17 am

BML87 wrote:
What does DL offer at SEA to YEG pax that isn't already covered? Anyone going to Asia or Hawaii would go through YVR. LAX, SFO, LAS, PHX, PSP, OGG are all covered nonstop and any other connections to the PNW would be covered by AS.


What DL offers is competition, specifically consumers have a choice of two airlines (Alaska/Horizon vs. Delta/Compass) on the route. Two options are always better than one for consumers, as long as both options are competitive. But as we have seen in YEG, JNU, and elsewhere, Delta Connection's performance is non-competitive and is therefore always rejected by consumers. If there were enough passengers to justify it, I suspect Delta would switch YEG-SEA to mainline. If not, surrender is the best option.
 
amcnd
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:48 am

Maybe were going about this the wrong way. YEG has suffered horrible job losses, the economy in Alberta is bad the housing market is bad... maybe people are not traveling... And Delta see’s it..
 
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enilria
Topic Author
Posts: 9485
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:51 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
enilria wrote:
n562wn wrote:

I'll echo this statement in saying that I do as well. While I do agree with some posters here that the additional commentary comes across as peculiar at times, the time and effort to compile the data is much appreciated.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

See when people complain about me giving commentary, what I hear in my head is "STFU and give us our free data". That's what makes me think, why bother...


Enilria, without a doubt the weekly thread you create is among the most appreciated on a.net, and I personally look forward to and appreciate its arrival.

However, i don’t see how that precludes pushback against your commentary? I don’t think anyone can expect to start a thread, no matter how valuable, and be shielded from disagreement over commentary. However, I’ll personally just make the effort not to partipate in the thread and see if that’s helpful.

I've been told repeatedly in these threads to just post the data and not make comments. Probably 100x. I guess that makes it easier for people to cut and paste it for use at their company/airline.

This week, it was more fanboy attacks that I am apparently targeting only WN with negative comments. What airline have I not been critical of in terms of strategy in the fullness of time?
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9527
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:05 pm

enilria wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
enilria wrote:
See when people complain about me giving commentary, what I hear in my head is "STFU and give us our free data". That's what makes me think, why bother...


Enilria, without a doubt the weekly thread you create is among the most appreciated on a.net, and I personally look forward to and appreciate its arrival.

However, i don’t see how that precludes pushback against your commentary? I don’t think anyone can expect to start a thread, no matter how valuable, and be shielded from disagreement over commentary. However, I’ll personally just make the effort not to partipate in the thread and see if that’s helpful.

I've been told repeatedly in these threads to just post the data and not make comments. Probably 100x. I guess that makes it easier for people to cut and paste it for use at their company/airline.

This week, it was more fanboy attacks that I am apparently targeting only WN with negative comments. What airline have I not been critical of in terms of strategy in the fullness of time?


I have no idea what people do with what you post. I’m guessing better than 99% of us merely peruse it for our own enjoyment or analysis.

To the latter part, I guess it’s up to you. If you enjoy interjecting other comments into it, there’s nothing wrong with that. I just think it’s unrealistic to expect people not to respond. Some of your comments come off a bit snarky so if that’s not your intention then maybe that’s why you’re surprised some people push back.

I think the suggestion of keeping it to just data is probably not meant for efficiency in copying/pasting as much as it’s like anything else - a desire to enjoy your contribution without the added comments that might taint it for some. Again, it’s your thread - do what you like.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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deltacto
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Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:04 pm

enilria wrote:
I've been told repeatedly in these threads to just post the data and not make comments. Probably 100x. I guess that makes it easier for people to cut and paste it for use at their company/airline.

This week, it was more fanboy attacks that I am apparently targeting only WN with negative comments. What airline have I not been critical of in terms of strategy in the fullness of time?


I look forward to the OAG threads every week

you take the time to compile and post all the data ... on your time and for free ...
so you can make any comments you want
 
joeblow10
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:58 pm

Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:12 pm

deltacto wrote:
enilria wrote:
I've been told repeatedly in these threads to just post the data and not make comments. Probably 100x. I guess that makes it easier for people to cut and paste it for use at their company/airline.

This week, it was more fanboy attacks that I am apparently targeting only WN with negative comments. What airline have I not been critical of in terms of strategy in the fullness of time?


I look forward to the OAG threads every week

you take the time to compile and post all the data ... on your time and for free ...
so you can make any comments you want


Agreed ... folks might not agree with them (sometimes I don't), but I'm not willing to do the task of putting this together - so your commentary is your call.

I don't dwell on the commentary, I just look at the changes themselves, and that's an extremely valuable report to have
 
BML87
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:55 pm

Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:24 pm

amcnd wrote:
Maybe were going about this the wrong way. YEG has suffered horrible job losses, the economy in Alberta is bad the housing market is bad...


YEG has not suffered horrible job losses. Its unemployment rate has been decreasing each month and is now the same as Toronto's.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en ... 1410029401


amcnd wrote:
maybe people are not traveling... And Delta see’s it..


Transborder travel up 11.7% in November and 9% year to date.

http://corporate.flyeia.com/business-at ... statistics
 
jordanh
Posts: 263
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:56 pm

Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:30 pm

IPFreely wrote:
But as we have seen in YEG, JNU, and elsewhere, Delta Connection's performance is non-competitive and is therefore always rejected by consumers. If there were enough passengers to justify it, I suspect Delta would switch YEG-SEA to mainline. If not, surrender is the best option.


Wasn't it Ronald Reagan who said, "There you go again"? Well, here you go again... you know Delta's Connection Carriers are certainly more reliable than Alaska's Horizon Air; didn't they have to cancel hundreds of flights this summer because they couldn't (or wouldn't) pay pilots enough to fly them?

That, I would say, is not reliable!
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2328
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: OAG Changes 12/30/2018:DL Drops LAX-SAL and SEA-YEG;SY Adds PDX-HNL;UA EWR-POS to Daily,HDN-IAH Dropped for Summer

Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:59 pm

jordanh wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
But as we have seen in YEG, JNU, and elsewhere, Delta Connection's performance is non-competitive and is therefore always rejected by consumers. If there were enough passengers to justify it, I suspect Delta would switch YEG-SEA to mainline. If not, surrender is the best option.


Wasn't it Ronald Reagan who said, "There you go again"? Well, here you go again... you know Delta's Connection Carriers are certainly more reliable than Alaska's Horizon Air; didn't they have to cancel hundreds of flights this summer because they couldn't (or wouldn't) pay pilots enough to fly them?

That, I would say, is not reliable!


The consumers on YEG-SEA have voted with their wallets. Horizon won, Delta Connection lost. End of story.

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