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atcsundevil
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India's AAIB summons BR, KL, and N8 crews following "near mid-air collision" over DEL

Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:50 pm

India's Aircraft Accident Incident Board (AAIB) has summoned pilots from an incident involving EVA Air, KLM, and National Airlines in which all three aircraft were vertically separated by 1,000ft "narrowly escaping a mid-air collision".

The US National Airlines from Afghanistan to Hong Kong was flying at 31,000 feet, the Amsterdam-Bangkok EVA Air plane at 32,000 feet and Vienna-bound Dutch KLM at 33,000 feet.
I'm pretty sure the EVA Air was Vienna-bound and the KLM was AMS-BKK, so perhaps not the best journalism here.

As per the Directorate General of Civil Aviation's Aircraft (Investigation of Accidents and Incidents) Rules 2017, the AAIB is empowered to summon the pilots of foreign airlines for investigation.


So, does India not have RVSM? Because if they do, 1,000ft is standard separation, and is certainly not "narrowly escaping a mid-air collision". If that were the case, then every flight in the US and Europe would be narrowly escaping with their lives.

Also, why would they summon the pilots..? Last I checked, it's ATC's responsibility to assign altitudes and separate airplanes, so I fail to understand what that has to do with the flight crews. It sounds to me like a massive inconvenience.

None of this makes any sense.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/mid-air ... ve-1969755
 
Gabrielz
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Re: India's AAIB summons BR, KL, and N8 crews following "near mid-air collision" over DEL

Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:56 pm

Lesson #1 you learn in india: few things make sense by western standards.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: India's AAIB summons BR, KL, and N8 crews following "near mid-air collision" over DEL

Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:06 am

Its an ANI report so not the highest standards of journalism there! I don't think the ANI report quoted by NDTV is reporting the whole story. If the AAIB has summoned the pilots, it would be because the ATC instructions were not followed and the reqd separation minima is violated. Usually, summons happen only if one or more pilots involved are repeat offenders.

As per Indian regs, aircraft must maintain Vertical separation of 1000ft or lateral separation of 5-10nm(depending on area). Perhaps this was not followed by one or more pilots AND most likely it was a repeat offense.

Gabrielz wrote:
Lesson #1 you learn in india: few things make sense by western standards.


Wow! Racist much?

It was a mid-air traffic scenario in one of the busiest air corridors in the world. This near-collision scenario has happened before, the worst being the Charkhi-Dadri collision. Communication was a factor in most of the cases so far. The past dozen or so close calls in the last 20 years have all involved pilots from Russian speaking countries except 2 others - one Dutch carrier(KLM) and another Swiss (Lowda Airliines). English is pretty much the first language for much of India.

So perhaps we should wait for more information to come out before making racist commentary?
Mr.Kapoor's favorite poodle!
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: India's AAIB summons BR, KL, and N8 crews following "near mid-air collision" over DEL

Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:30 am

BawliBooch wrote:
Gabrielz wrote:
Lesson #1 you learn in india: few things make sense by western standards.


Wow! Racist much?


There is nothing racist with observing that the practices of one culture don't always make sense to another culture.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
Bhoy
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Re: India's AAIB summons BR, KL, and N8 crews following "near mid-air collision" over DEL

Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:38 am

BawliBooch wrote:
Gabrielz wrote:
Lesson #1 you learn in india: few things make sense by western standards.


Wow! Racist much?

It was a mid-air traffic scenario in one of the busiest air corridors in the world. This near-collision scenario has happened before, the worst being the Charkhi-Dadri collision. Communication was a factor in most of the cases so far. The past dozen or so close calls in the last 20 years have all involved pilots from Russian speaking countries except 2 others - one Dutch carrier(KLM) and another Swiss (Lowda Airliines). English is pretty much the first language for much of India.

So perhaps we should wait for more information to come out before making racist commentary?
Lowda?

You mean Lauda? They're austrian, not swiss.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: India's AAIB summons BR, KL, and N8 crews following "near mid-air collision" over DEL

Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:02 am

DfwRevolution wrote:
There is nothing racist with observing that the practices of one culture don't always make sense to another culture.


OKAY!!! :wave:
Mr.Kapoor's favorite poodle!
 
DSFTEBMNZ
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Re: India's AAIB summons BR, KL, and N8 crews following "near mid-air collision" over DEL

Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:26 am

atcsundevil wrote:
India's Aircraft Accident Incident Board (AAIB) has summoned pilots from an incident involving EVA Air, KLM, and National Airlines in which all three aircraft were vertically separated by 1,000ft "narrowly escaping a mid-air collision".

None of this makes any sense.


Actually, none of this is really “news”. This was documented in detail by Simon Hrasky over at the Aviation Herald three days ago on Dec 28th. National Airlines started to climb to FL350 without clearance. KLM and EVA were in harms way at FL320/330.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4c2289f3&opt=0
 
maint123
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Re: India's AAIB summons BR, KL, and N8 crews following "near mid-air collision" over DEL

Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:32 am

Gabrielz wrote:
Lesson #1 you learn in india: few things make sense by western standards.

You forgot to write " how DARE they investigate a safety non conformity by our western pilots". Who do they think they are ?
Look at our perfect planes like Boeing 737 max and PW powered A320's.
 
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Re: India's AAIB summons BR, KL, and N8 crews following "near mid-air collision" over DEL

Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:16 am

DSFTEBMNZ wrote:


Since my edit function happens to be disabled, let me correct the author’s name here: Simon Hradecky. Apologies.
 
anshabhi
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Re: India's AAIB summons BR, KL, and N8 crews following "near mid-air collision" over DEL

Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:29 am

Lesson #1 for India: Ignore random noise and follow your own rules
atcsundevil wrote:
So, does India not have RVSM? Because if they do, 1,000ft is standard separation, and is certainly not "narrowly escaping a mid-air collision". If that were the case, then every flight in the US and Europe would be narrowly escaping with their lives.

Also, why would they summon the pilots..? Last I checked, it's ATC's responsibility to assign altitudes and separate airplanes, so I fail to understand what that has to do with the flight crews. It sounds to me like a massive inconvenience.

None of this makes any sense.

TCAS warnings were generated in all 3 aircraft. Is it standard in US & Europe?
They would summon the pilots because national air cargo went against their assigned altitude.
Last edited by anshabhi on Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
acechip
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Re: India's AAIB summons BR, KL, and N8 crews following "near mid-air collision" over DEL

Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:32 am

Gabrielz wrote:
Lesson #1 you learn in india: few things make sense by western standards.


Well, if they make sense to 15% of the worlds population, its perfectly okay. That apart, I am sure that the airline companies and their legal eagles would have been aware of the compliance to the regulations of the country in respect of incidents/accidents. No point in questioning wisdom/motives. There were hundreds of passengers involved in this incident.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: India's AAIB summons BR, KL, and N8 crews following "near mid-air collision" over DEL

Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:25 am

anshabhi wrote:
TCAS warnings were generated in all 3 aircraft. Is it standard in US & Europe?
They would summon the pilots because national air cargo went against their assigned altitude.

TCAS would probably go off if one of the aircraft left their assigned altitude. I don't know why they'd all be forced to come in if one crew was potentially to blame. What insight could the other pilots offer? That's a long way to travel to say, "TCAS told me to climb, so I did."

In any case, I'm not exactly sure how they think they have jurisdiction over foreign pilots. I suppose they can try, but there really isn't anything they can do if the pilots tell them "Thanks, but no thanks." There's no way they could pursue enforcement action, and it's unlikely the other countries would cooperate. At least, that's generally how these things go.

I assume the AAIB is similar to the NTSB? If so, it's strange to me that they'd be investigating a loss of separation, even if it was a pilot deviation. Incident/accident investigations exist to find causes and prevent future occurrences, but if it's a pilot deviation, there isn't really much that can be learned, other than the guy screwed up. It seems like an exercise in futility to me.
 
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unrave
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Re: India's AAIB summons BR, KL, and N8 crews following "near mid-air collision" over DEL

Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:21 am

Gabrielz wrote:
Lesson #1 you learn in india: few things make sense by western standards.

Pray tell us what you experience has been in dealing with India.

Looks like one of the pilots proceeded to climb without clearance. Sounds serious enough to warrant an investigation to me.
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
avier
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Re: India's AAIB summons BR, KL, and N8 crews following "near mid-air collision" over DEL

Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:09 am

atcsundevil wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
TCAS warnings were generated in all 3 aircraft. Is it standard in US & Europe?
They would summon the pilots because national air cargo went against their assigned altitude.

TCAS would probably go off if one of the aircraft left their assigned altitude. I don't know why they'd all be forced to come in if one crew was potentially to blame. What insight could the other pilots offer? That's a long way to travel to say, "TCAS told me to climb, so I did."

In any case, I'm not exactly sure how they think they have jurisdiction over foreign pilots. I suppose they can try, but there really isn't anything they can do if the pilots tell them "Thanks, but no thanks." There's no way they could pursue enforcement action, and it's unlikely the other countries would cooperate. At least, that's generally how these things go.

I assume the AAIB is similar to the NTSB? If so, it's strange to me that they'd be investigating a loss of separation, even if it was a pilot deviation. Incident/accident investigations exist to find causes and prevent future occurrences, but if it's a pilot deviation, there isn't really much that can be learned, other than the guy screwed up. It seems like an exercise in futility to me.


It could be that such incidents are happening far too often over Indian airspace by overflying foreign aircrafts. So maybe this time India has signaled out to the international market that they are going to take action against erring pilots and airlines, and such actions of crew won't be tolerated.
Just looking at FR24, one can see tonnes of aircrafts crossing over the Indian airspace flying between Asia and Europe/Middle-East/Africa. So with crowded skies, this issue is definitely to be addressed.
 
EmoticonsAllDay
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Re: India's AAIB summons BR, KL, and N8 crews following "near mid-air collision" over DEL

Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:52 am

Gabrielz wrote:
Lesson #1 you learn in india: few things make sense by western standards.


People just don't realize that prejudice is the worst in investivations all around the world. Sad that you are one of them.
 
planesarecool
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Re: India's AAIB summons BR, KL, and N8 crews following "near mid-air collision" over DEL

Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:38 pm

As somebody who flies across India almost every week, it is worth making a point that Air Traffic Control is often difficult to understand and chaotic. Many parts of the country, especially around the borders, are VHF dark spots and transmissions can often be unintentionally blocked by other aircraft unsuccessfully trying to make contact.

And that's not racist, it's an observation. In my experience, if there was going to be ATC confusion anywhere in the World, India is probably where it would be.
 
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Re: India's AAIB summons BR, KL, and N8 crews following "near mid-air collision" over DEL

Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:52 pm

Is it possible to summon a foreign crew for an interview in India? Wouldn't it be easier to refer them to their own regulator? I am sure their own chief pilot will have a chat.

Funny India let Air Canada 46 crew on 9/18/17 without questioning, which had a serious lapse of judgement than this momentary loss of separation.
Last edited by dtw2hyd on Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: India's AAIB summons BR, KL, and N8 crews following "near mid-air collision" over DEL

Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:52 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
There is nothing racist with observing that the practices of one culture don't always make sense to another culture.


OKAY!!! :wave:


Wow...maybe the first time I've ever agreed with you.
 
hayzel777
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Re: India's AAIB summons BR, KL, and N8 crews following "near mid-air collision" over DEL

Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:29 pm

It’d probably be easier to just arrange a call with the pilots or the chief pilot.

The reporting by the Indian press has been absolute garbage. All kinds of misinformation being spewed, just terrible. The AvHerald link is the only helpful source; the rest have all kinds of propaganda and bad information in them that make them hard to read.
 
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Re: India's AAIB summons BR, KL, and N8 crews following "near mid-air collision" over DEL

Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:45 pm

Guys, Please read the event report.
I believe it is important that pilots of all there flights should be contacted to investigate properly, if the event report is as per the link
https://www.businesstoday.in/top-story/ ... 05137.html

Quoting from the report:
First it was NCR 840, which was flying at flight level 310 (31,000 ft) and EVA 061 at flight level 320 (32,000 ft) which breached mandatory separation. The pilots of both the aircraft were alerted by the onboard TCAS warning system," the official said.

Around the same time, the KLM flight was at 33,000 ft, he added.

Following the TCAS (Traffic Collision Avoidance System) warning, the pilot of NCR 840 sought to climb to 35,000 feet but was told to remain at that current level till the time it gets a go-ahead.

"However, when the air traffic controller (ATC) observed it climbing, it was immediately asked to take a left turn. In the meantime, EVA also continued climbing at flight level 330, a level at which KLM was already flying, and at this time, another TCAS warning went off, alerting the pilots to steer the aircraft to a safer distance," the official said.

As the NCR 840 again descended to flight level 330, it came across the EVA flight, triggering another TCAS alarm, the official said.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: India's AAIB summons BR, KL, and N8 crews following "near mid-air collision" over DEL

Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:13 pm

pushpakvimaan wrote:
Guys, Please read the event report.
I believe it is important that pilots of all there flights should be contacted to investigate properly, if the event report is as per the link
https://www.businesstoday.in/top-story/ ... 05137.html

Quoting from the report:
First it was NCR 840, which was flying at flight level 310 (31,000 ft) and EVA 061 at flight level 320 (32,000 ft) which breached mandatory separation. The pilots of both the aircraft were alerted by the onboard TCAS warning system," the official said.

Around the same time, the KLM flight was at 33,000 ft, he added.

Following the TCAS (Traffic Collision Avoidance System) warning, the pilot of NCR 840 sought to climb to 35,000 feet but was told to remain at that current level till the time it gets a go-ahead.

"However, when the air traffic controller (ATC) observed it climbing, it was immediately asked to take a left turn. In the meantime, EVA also continued climbing at flight level 330, a level at which KLM was already flying, and at this time, another TCAS warning went off, alerting the pilots to steer the aircraft to a safer distance," the official said.

As the NCR 840 again descended to flight level 330, it came across the EVA flight, triggering another TCAS alarm, the official said.

Why would FL310 and FL320 breach minimum separation? If India has RVSM, which BawliBooch seemed to confirm, then that is standard vertical separation. I can guarantee with absolute certainty that all three aircraft are RVSM equipped.

Why would the controller disregard the pilot's TCAS RA? In most of the world, ATC is specifically prohibited from interfering with or contradicting an RA, and can only suggest left/right turns to avoid traffic. If Indian ATC is permitted to deny responding to an RA, then that is an absolutely massive safety issue. One need not look further than the Uberlingen crash for evidence. If the National pilots climbed without clearance in response to a TCAS RA, then they were following their training. Furthermore, if he was at the bottom altitude and was given an RA to climb, then there must have been traffic underneath that the TCAS projected a conflict with, so that part doesn't really make sense.

As I said before, there really isn't much they can do if the pilots say, "Thanks, but no thanks." It would be highly unlikely to ban an airline or a country's airlines in retaliation, because the same thing could happen to Indian carriers if they refuse to comply. Not only that, it isn't worth the diplomatic fallout, which is why these things are never pursued. It sounds to me like the focus of the investigation should be on ATC procedures instead of the pilots, and I'm saying that as a controller.
 
anshabhi
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Re: India's AAIB summons BR, KL, and N8 crews following "near mid-air collision" over DEL

Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:27 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
Why would FL310 and FL320 breach minimum separation? If India has RVSM, which BawliBooch seemed to confirm, then that is standard vertical separation. I can guarantee with absolute certainty that all three aircraft are RVSM equipped.


It was issued when Eva air was flying at FL320 and NCA started climbing from FL310. Thus breaching 1000 ft separation
 
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Re: India's AAIB summons BR, KL, and N8 crews following "near mid-air collision" over DEL

Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:44 pm

anshabhi wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
Why would FL310 and FL320 breach minimum separation? If India has RVSM, which BawliBooch seemed to confirm, then that is standard vertical separation. I can guarantee with absolute certainty that all three aircraft are RVSM equipped.


It was issued when Eva air was flying at FL320 and NCA started climbing from FL310. Thus breaching 1000 ft separation

Okay. Generally TCAS would initiate an RA to descend then. The EVA would get one to climb into the KLM. If TCAS told NCA to continue climbing, then that's rather strange.

If the NCA climbed without TCAS or clearance, then it's a pilot deviation. This just seems a bit overblown to me if it's a pilot deviation, because it isn't necessarily indicative of something systemic.
 
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pushpakvimaan
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Re: India's AAIB summons BR, KL, and N8 crews following "near mid-air collision" over DEL

Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:47 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
Why would FL310 and FL320 breach minimum separation? If India has RVSM, which BawliBooch seemed to confirm, then that is standard vertical separation. I can guarantee with absolute certainty that all three aircraft are RVSM equipped.


Flight level has nothing to do with the aircraft following the flight level. Is it not possible that one of the aircraft did not abide by the flight level thus reducing separation and triggering TCAS.
You may question, why would a pilot do that ? But that is exactly investigation will need to find out.

atcsundevil wrote:
Why would the controller disregard the pilot's TCAS RA? In most of the world, ATC is specifically prohibited from interfering with or contradicting an RA, and can only suggest left/right turns to avoid traffic. If Indian ATC is permitted to deny responding to an RA, then that is an absolutely massive safety issue. One need not look further than the Uberlingen crash for evidence. If the National pilots climbed without clearance in response to a TCAS RA, then they were following their training. Furthermore, if he was at the bottom altitude and was given an RA to climb, then there must have been traffic underneath that the TCAS projected a conflict with, so that part doesn't really make sense.


As i understand from news report, the second alarm was triggered probably since N8 decided to climb (may be without authorization). Again a likely point for investigation

TCAS alarms have been triggered in Indian airspace many times this year itself. So this is not new (see links below)
https://www.timesnownews.com/india/arti ... ate/253604
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/t ... 2018-11-02
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 130660.cms



Again the point is what pilots did after TCAS suggested action was complete. Was there an unauthorized climb even after TCAS warning was over
Just an example of a similar incident with Ryan jets, an investigation was ordered when both flights followed TCAS
http://www.theleader.info/2018/10/26/in ... nair-jets/
 
Gr8Circle
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Re: India's AAIB summons BR, KL, and N8 crews following "near mid-air collision" over DEL

Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:49 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:
Gabrielz wrote:
Lesson #1 you learn in india: few things make sense by western standards.


Wow! Racist much?


There is nothing racist with observing that the practices of one culture don't always make sense to another culture.


Whether the word "racist" was correct or not, the implications of the said comment were extremely offensive and ill informed....
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: India's AAIB summons BR, KL, and N8 crews following "near mid-air collision" over DEL

Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:08 pm

pushpakvimaan wrote:
Flight level has nothing to do with the aircraft following the flight level.

The report you posted said NCA was at 310, and EVA was at 320. If a pilot deviated from the clearance, then obviously that's a different story, as I mentioned previously.

pushpakvimaan wrote:
TCAS alarms have been triggered in Indian airspace many times this year itself. So this is not new (see links below)
https://www.timesnownews.com/india/arti ... ate/253604
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/t ... 2018-11-02
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 130660.cms

They're called Resolution Advisories, not alarms. They happen on a daily basis all over the world, often in error. There isn't anything particularly noteworthy about an RA, other than some paperwork needs to be filled out. It's certainly not "routine", but they aren't unusual.

pushpakvimaan wrote:
Again the point is what pilots did after TCAS suggested action was complete. Was there an unauthorized climb even after TCAS warning was over
Just an example of a similar incident with Ryan jets, an investigation was ordered when both flights followed TCAS
http://www.theleader.info/2018/10/26/in ... nair-jets/

After the TCAS RA is complete, it's up to the controller to specify what action needs to be performed. Usually pilots will ask if the controller hasn't specified. If the pilot continued to deviate from the assigned clearances, then obviously that's bad. However, there's no guarantee of cooperation with the investigation given that it's a foreign flag carrier. It would be up to the FAA to take action if deemed appropriate.

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