Michiganatc
Posts: 138
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 3:34 pm

Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:06 am

rbavfan wrote:
Michiganatc wrote:

Non revs are available space only. If your upset they are bumped for revenue cargo then you need to re asses your life views.


rbavfan: Unbelievable. Show me anywhere in this thread where I or anyone else said that non-revs matter? It was just an example of how Delta’s A350’s often can’t carry full passenger and cargo loads on certain routes. To make you happy, let’s change the story to it being a full load of revenue passengers and then cargo gets bumped...Is that better? Next time, take the time to actually read what others post.
Last edited by Michiganatc on Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:13 am, edited 6 times in total.
 
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seabosdca
Posts: 5974
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:07 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Why wouldn't they just order more A330neo to replace the A330ceo? The 787 doesn't really offer anything now that they chose the A330neo. Delta chose a cheap acquisition price instead of cutting edge technology and efficiency. I hate seeing mixed fleets. It just screams inefficient.


Once you have about 30 of a given widebody type, further economies of scale are reduced. Small differences in capacity and mission profile can overcome them. There's a reason why you don't see intercontinental operators with, say, a fleet of 100 787-9s and nothing else in the fleet. Every operator with over 100 widebodies has multiple types.

The 787 is going to be in production longer than the A330neo and is very likely to see more substantial improvement. The competition between 787 and A330neo will look very different in the mid-2020s than it does today. Delta will make the overall deal with the highest value as always, but I think it's plausible to likely that the 787 will be able to provide more value than the A330neo at that point, even for an existing A330neo operator. First, the 787 offers the option of the 787-10, which will provide almost free revenue potential on TATL routes like those usually flown by the 764 and 333 fleets. Second, given higher production volume, the 787 is more likely to see engine improvements.

Both OEMs will, as always, come to that order with very sharp pencils.
 
trav777
Posts: 101
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:04 am

to answer the OP, I too have read the airline pilot forum thread-

the 268t 359 that DL had wasn't doing LAX-SYD with acceptable payload; multiple commenters said and confirmed this. Thus, DL will uprate it seems to 275t. Tack on another 7t of fuel and it ought to be able to do it. But this exposes how *still* overstated Airbag's brochure ranges are that everyone on Anet takes as canon. Boring's brochure ranges are now pretty fair in a configuration like Untied uses. If a 6500nm city pair is outside the range of the 268t 359, +12t and some wing twist is *not* putting this thing at 8100nm. I reckon it's good for 7500nm tops. IOW about what the 789 can do in brochure config.

When a pilot forum has a thread titled "does anyone like the A350?" it would seem to indicate that there's some issue with the plane, and it was roundly panned by pilots, FAs, and the other pros from that airline. Both on performance and galleys and physical space. Anet may not want to hear this, but that's what the actual operators for a major airline are saying...

This type of real-world feedback may answer why the 35x's sales have slowed dramatically for the past few years and why Dolta deferred more of this plane and appears to have taken the 339 instead, albeit that is a sales dog as well. We'll have to keep an eye out for what other operators are saying as well as efficiency specs- if this is the start of a larger trend, Airbag is in serious trouble in the widebody space, like struggling to sell any planes trouble. Kinda like how Boring was before the MAX10; the 32x neo was simply crushing them.
 
majano
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:41 am

Michiganatc wrote:
My friend works for DL in the ATL flight planning/dispatch department and he say’s his department is disappointed in the A350 payload ability with it being frequently weight restricted. He tells me that on flights such as DTW-PVG/PEK it often can’t take a full load of passengers and cargo. So if the flight is full of revenue passengers then some cargo is left behind and if the flight has non-rev’s then cargo goes and non-rev’s frequently get left behind.

Aside from what he is telling me, I have another Delta friend who experienced this exact situation. Last summer she was trying to fly PEK-DTW and the flight was showing 55 open seats with a mix between J and Y class open. She was shocked to learn that they couldn’t take a single non-rev on this flight and it left with 62 open seats so it could take all of its cargo. This seems a bit extreme to me. I’ve heard of leaving a few non-rev’s behind but 62 is crazy.

I don’t know the technical aspects of the A359 but are there different variations of this aircraft with different payloads abilities? To put it simply: Did Delta buy the cheap A359’s to get a deal? (Obviously the word “cheap” is relative so please no snarky comments about symantics). I ask this because I don’t recall hearing Delta’s 77L’s ever being weight restricted, except for maybe ATL-JNB occasionally in the summer.

The last time "someone's friend" with insider knowledge said something similar about the a330 at Hawaiian Airlines, the carrier proceeded to add to their order tally in a few days. Perhaps these are good omens for the a350 at Delta?
 
StTim
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:06 am

When do airlines buy frames based on brochure range?
 
tommy1808
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:55 am

Varsity1 wrote:
DGVT wrote:
Delta is going to get rid all of them because the Anet rumor that it can't do LAX-SYD is true.


That's not a rumor. Go to APC, pilots will tell you straight from the horses mouth.

The pilots aren't impressed by it.


So, somehow Singapore Airlines manages to fly its A359 1700nm or 3.5 hrs further with just 5 ton more MTOW available to them?

~15 ton less pax, ~22 ton more fuel ..... delta 7 ton.

So...,since they don´t have A351s or 77W the Pilots at Delta are complaining that a 275t Aircraft can not haul what a 351t 77L can? Which has a smaller cabin, less cargo space and burns about a third more fuel?

Seriously?

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Airlines0613
Posts: 40
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:16 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
DGVT wrote:
Delta is going to get rid all of them because the Anet rumor that it can't do LAX-SYD is true.


That's not a rumor. Go to APC, pilots will tell you straight from the horses mouth.

The pilots aren't impressed by it.


So, somehow Singapore Airlines manages to fly its A359 1700nm or 3.5 hrs further with just 5 ton more MTOW available to them?

~15 ton less pax, ~22 ton more fuel ..... delta 7 ton.

So...,since they don´t have A351s or 77W the Pilots at Delta are complaining that a 275t Aircraft can not haul what a 351t 77L can? Which has a smaller cabin, less cargo space and burns about a third more fuel?

Seriously?

best regards
Thomas


Technically, the Boeing 777-200LR can carry more payload than a 280t Airbus A350-900 at a similar range. If you read some previous posts, you can understand why.
 
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Kindanew
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:03 am

seabosdca wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Why wouldn't they just order more A330neo to replace the A330ceo? The 787 doesn't really offer anything now that they chose the A330neo. Delta chose a cheap acquisition price instead of cutting edge technology and efficiency. I hate seeing mixed fleets. It just screams inefficient.


Once you have about 30 of a given widebody type, further economies of scale are reduced. Small differences in capacity and mission profile can overcome them. There's a reason why you don't see intercontinental operators with, say, a fleet of 100 787-9s and nothing else in the fleet. Every operator with over 100 widebodies has multiple types.

The 787 is going to be in production longer than the A330neo and is very likely to see more substantial improvement. The competition between 787 and A330neo will look very different in the mid-2020s than it does today. Delta will make the overall deal with the highest value as always, but I think it's plausible to likely that the 787 will be able to provide more value than the A330neo at that point, even for an existing A330neo operator. First, the 787 offers the option of the 787-10, which will provide almost free revenue potential on TATL routes like those usually flown by the 764 and 333 fleets. Second, given higher production volume, the 787 is more likely to see engine improvements.

Both OEMs will, as always, come to that order with very sharp pencils.


I’m sure that by the mid 2020’s Airbus will be thinking about an A330 replacement anyway.
 
Mrakula
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:05 am

Airlines0613 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:

That's not a rumor. Go to APC, pilots will tell you straight from the horses mouth.

The pilots aren't impressed by it.


So, somehow Singapore Airlines manages to fly its A359 1700nm or 3.5 hrs further with just 5 ton more MTOW available to them?

~15 ton less pax, ~22 ton more fuel ..... delta 7 ton.

So...,since they don´t have A351s or 77W the Pilots at Delta are complaining that a 275t Aircraft can not haul what a 351t 77L can? Which has a smaller cabin, less cargo space and burns about a third more fuel?

Seriously?

best regards
Thomas


Technically, the Boeing 777-200LR can carry more payload than a 280t Airbus A350-900 at a similar range. If you read some previous posts, you can understand why.


Sure it can. Because it will burn 25% more fuel, higher landing fees etc. Questin is: Is the capability offcet the running cost?
 
tommy1808
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:15 am

Mrakula wrote:
Airlines0613 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

So, somehow Singapore Airlines manages to fly its A359 1700nm or 3.5 hrs further with just 5 ton more MTOW available to them?

~15 ton less pax, ~22 ton more fuel ..... delta 7 ton.

So...,since they don´t have A351s or 77W the Pilots at Delta are complaining that a 275t Aircraft can not haul what a 351t 77L can? Which has a smaller cabin, less cargo space and burns about a third more fuel?

Seriously?

best regards
Thomas


Technically, the Boeing 777-200LR can carry more payload than a 280t Airbus A350-900 at a similar range. If you read some previous posts, you can understand why.


Sure it can. Because it will burn 25% more fuel, higher landing fees etc. Questin is: Is the capability offcet the running cost?


Exactly. I did not say with a single word that the 77L would just carry the same payload or less than the A359, I said it is the only delta type that can carry more.
And the A359 burns 25% less, which means the 77L burns 1/3 more.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Lootess
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:27 pm

trav777 wrote:
to answer the OP, I too have read the airline pilot forum thread-

the 268t 359 that DL had wasn't doing LAX-SYD with acceptable payload; multiple commenters said and confirmed this. Thus, DL will uprate it seems to 275t. Tack on another 7t of fuel and it ought to be able to do it. But this exposes how *still* overstated Airbag's brochure ranges are that everyone on Anet takes as canon. Boring's brochure ranges are now pretty fair in a configuration like Untied uses. If a 6500nm city pair is outside the range of the 268t 359, +12t and some wing twist is *not* putting this thing at 8100nm. I reckon it's good for 7500nm tops. IOW about what the 789 can do in brochure config.

When a pilot forum has a thread titled "does anyone like the A350?" it would seem to indicate that there's some issue with the plane, and it was roundly panned by pilots, FAs, and the other pros from that airline. Both on performance and galleys and physical space. Anet may not want to hear this, but that's what the actual operators for a major airline are saying...

This type of real-world feedback may answer why the 35x's sales have slowed dramatically for the past few years and why Dolta deferred more of this plane and appears to have taken the 339 instead, albeit that is a sales dog as well. We'll have to keep an eye out for what other operators are saying as well as efficiency specs- if this is the start of a larger trend, Airbag is in serious trouble in the widebody space, like struggling to sell any planes trouble. Kinda like how Boring was before the MAX10; the 32x neo was simply crushing them.


Baseless conspiracy theories from someone who has no insight into the program.

Richard Anderson was on-record wanting the A330neo well before it was even on-paper, and DL was wanting a 767-300 replacement soon, and had been quite content with the A330 that top-up order with the higher tonne was placed.

A350 deferment is because less need for new longer-haul types with the new KL deal, plus it gives DL flexibility to upgrade the type should they need it. It's not like they can't order more wide bodies should demand change, the board will practically rubber-stamp what Ed wants if there is dollar signs to be had.
 
trav777
Posts: 101
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:49 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
So, somehow Singapore Airlines manages to fly its A359 1700nm or 3.5 hrs further with just 5 ton more MTOW available to them?

~15 ton less pax, ~22 ton more fuel ..... delta 7 ton.

So...,since they don´t have A351s or 77W the Pilots at Delta are complaining that a 275t Aircraft can not haul what a 351t 77L can? Which has a smaller cabin, less cargo space and burns about a third more fuel?

Seriously?

best regards
Thomas


Huh? You mean the ULR? That's a 280t plane with half the passengers. The issue with DL was their 268t models couldn't do LAX-SYD with acceptable payloads. I've no doubt the 275t will do this segment which is WHY they uprated. They had to.

Bigger question you SHOULD be asking is why isn't SQ deploying the base 359 on LAX-SIN. There's a very good reason why, the plane doesn't have the range. AB's ranges are still overstated by 600nm bc their brochure/ACAPS whatever you wanna call it are using unrealistic configs.

As far as this last post about "baseless conspiracy theories," um no, PAL, it's actual DL pilots. Who actually fly the plane.

So sorry that you do not like what they have to say as it interferes with your irrational brand loyalty
 
johns624
Posts: 1898
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:00 pm

trav777 wrote:

the 268t 359 that DL had wasn't doing LAX-SYD with acceptable payload; multiple commenters said and confirmed this.
When was the 359 on the LAX-SYD run?
 
Eyad89
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:51 pm

trav777 wrote:



Bigger question you SHOULD be asking is why isn't SQ deploying the base 359 on LAX-SIN.


See this thread,

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1408737

SQ's regular A359 (276t variant) did SFO-SIN with a TOW of 271 tons while being completely full. I would be pretty sure that it can do LAX-SIN since they still have a margin of 5T. Note that they had 7.5T of reserve fuel in that flight, which is pretty conservative. If they went for 4.5T of reserve fuel, they could leave a margin of 8T over SFO-SIN flight, that's about an hour and a half of flying.


One might argue that SQ was still afraid of a bad weather day where that wouldn't cut it, but another argument one can think of is they simply went for the ULR variant on the LAX-SIN route simply because they want the more premium config on that route. Could they expect a higher demand for premium seats over LAX-SIN than SFO-SIN?


Don't forget that an option of a 280T variant for the regular A359 has been available since late 2018. That variant requires the modified wingtip thought.
 
trav777
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:17 pm

Eyad89 wrote:
See this thread,

viewtopic.php?t=1408737

SQ's regular A359 (276t variant) did SFO-SIN with a TOW of 271 tons while being completely full. I would be pretty sure that it can do LAX-SIN since they still have a margin of 5T. Note that they had 7.5T of reserve fuel in that flight, which is pretty conservative. If they went for 4.5T of reserve fuel, they could leave a margin of 8T over SFO-SIN flight, that's about an hour and a half of flying.

One might argue that SQ was still afraid of a bad weather day where that wouldn't cut it, but another argument one can think of is they simply went for the ULR variant on the LAX-SIN route simply because they want the more premium config on that route. Could they expect a higher demand for premium seats over LAX-SIN than SFO-SIN?
Don't forget that an option of a 280T variant for the regular A359 has been available since late 2018. That variant requires the modified wingtip thought.


I saw it.

253 pax man...SQ is flying light. Spec is 325. There's another 7t of margin there. This plane makes no sense at that pax count, Untied's 789 will wipe it out on burn rate for that mission length. Burn was 5.85/hr downthread The Boring jet will do 5.4. If "future prospects" are based on this comparison, it's not hard to see why the sales numbers have gone the way they have in the past few years since the exploding batteries were worked out.

I honestly doubt there's sufficient premium demand on LAX-SIN vs SFO-SIN to necessitate the ULR. Could be wrong, of course, but I'll stand by my estimation that the 280t 359 won't reach 8100nm nor get close in a typical config. 253pax on a 359 isn't even remotely close to typical.

That said, if DL was having issues at 6500nm at 268t, 12 extra tons of MTOW does not get them to 8100. Period. No way, no how. Drop 70pax and maybe you're close. DL flies with 306.
 
Strato2
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:41 pm

trav777 wrote:
253 pax man...SQ is flying light. Spec is 325. There's another 7t of margin there. This plane makes no sense at that pax count, Untied's 789 will wipe it out on burn rate for that mission length. Burn was 5.85/hr downthread The Boring jet will do 5.4. If "future prospects" are based on this comparison, it's not hard to see why the sales numbers have gone the way they have in the past few years since the exploding batteries were worked out.


Would the Nightmareliner seat even 200 in an apples to apples comparison. Let's see what the numbers are then.
 
Eyad89
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:55 pm

trav777 wrote:
Eyad89 wrote:
See this thread,

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1408737

SQ's regular A359 (276t variant) did SFO-SIN with a TOW of 271 tons while being completely full. I would be pretty sure that it can do LAX-SIN since they still have a margin of 5T. Note that they had 7.5T of reserve fuel in that flight, which is pretty conservative. If they went for 4.5T of reserve fuel, they could leave a margin of 8T over SFO-SIN flight, that's about an hour and a half of flying.

One might argue that SQ was still afraid of a bad weather day where that wouldn't cut it, but another argument one can think of is they simply went for the ULR variant on the LAX-SIN route simply because they want the more premium config on that route. Could they expect a higher demand for premium seats over LAX-SIN than SFO-SIN?
Don't forget that an option of a 280T variant for the regular A359 has been available since late 2018. That variant requires the modified wingtip thought.


I saw it.

253 pax man...SQ is flying light. Spec is 325. There's another 7t of margin there. This plane makes no sense at that pax count, Untied's 789 will wipe it out on burn rate for that mission length. Burn was 5.85/hr downthread The Boring jet will do 5.4. If "future prospects" are based on this comparison, it's not hard to see why the sales numbers have gone the way they have in the past few years since the exploding batteries were worked out.

I honestly doubt there's sufficient premium demand on LAX-SIN vs SFO-SIN to necessitate the ULR. Could be wrong, of course, but I'll stand by my estimation that the 280t 359 won't reach 8100nm nor get close in a typical config. 253pax on a 359 isn't even remotely close to typical.

That said, if DL was having issues at 6500nm at 268t, 12 extra tons of MTOW does not get them to 8100. Period. No way, no how. Drop 70pax and maybe you're close. DL flies with 306.


If 789 had the same seating pitch and density as SQ’s A350, it would seat around 225 (10% less seating area than A359).

787 has an OEW that’s 9 tons lighter than A359, and if we say it burns 0.4 t/h less than A350, it would tank 6t less fuel as well for that flight(15*0.4). In other words, it would have been 15 tons lighter than A359 on that flight with a tow of 256t. That’s heavier than its MTOW, the plane wouldn’t even be able to take off.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:01 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
You all keep saying this but yet you never provide any reason for it.

Not sure where *you* get off chastising anyone else for pointless repetition, seeing as you're just regurgitating your same conclusory talking points that have been addressed by multiple posters prior.

But to take one more ride on the merry-go-round............



TTailedTiger wrote:
Do you seriously believe Delta needs another fleet type to add to the 767, 777, A330, and A350?

...........how many times must you be shown, if not outright told, that the airline isn't concerned with overlap in fleet type so long as the model in question has a peak area of performance within its performance portfolio relative to the similar/extant model?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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seabosdca
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:06 pm

Eyad89 wrote:
787 has an OEW that’s 9 tons lighter than A359, and if we say it burns 0.4 t/h less than A350, it would tank 6t less fuel as well for that flight(15*0.4). In other words, it would have been 15 tons lighter than A359 on that flight with a tow of 256t. That’s heavier than its MTOW, the plane wouldn’t even be able to take off.


And yet, in the real world, UA's 252-seat 787-9 flies the same route just fine with all seats full (but with little enough margin that it regularly had to block off 25+ seats on LAX-SIN).

I expect the difference is a combination of less reserve fuel than SQ carries and your numbers for both OEW and fuel burn of the 789 being a bit on the pessimistic side.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:08 pm

trav777 wrote:
Bigger question you SHOULD be asking is why isn't SQ deploying the base 359 on LAX-SIN. There's a very good reason why, the plane doesn't have the range.

You may wish to inform SQ of that, seeing as standard A359s subbed in on LAX-SIN-LAX several times once the second flight began operating.

It's not particularly difficult for them to do, seeing as the -ULR carries 92 less pax than their standard A359.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Utah744
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:20 pm

HIA350 wrote:
DGVT wrote:
Delta is going to get rid all of them because the Anet rumor that it can't do LAX-SYD is true.



yes they are scrapping them, sell them to coke and pepsi to become soda cans


Delta is a Coke airline. :D
You are never too old to learn something stupid
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:22 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
You all keep saying this but yet you never provide any reason for it.

Not sure where *you* get off chastising anyone else for pointless repetition, seeing as you're just regurgitating your same conclusory talking points that have been addressed by multiple posters prior.

But to take one more ride on the merry-go-round............



TTailedTiger wrote:
Do you seriously believe Delta needs another fleet type to add to the 767, 777, A330, and A350?

...........how many times must you be shown, if not outright told, that the airline isn't concerned with overlap in fleet type so long as the model in question has a peak area of performance within its performance portfolio relative to the similar/extant model?


I'll believe it when I see a 787 (or any new Boeing for that matter) in Delta paint. I at least have bragging rights on my side. After the initial A350/330 order in 2014 I said Delta would never order another Boeing. I've been right so far. Boeing isn't going to take a loss for a Delta order. In fact, Boeing outright told Delta that if they can get the A350 that cheaply then they should order it. I think that sent a very clear message.

For whatever reason Delta thinks they should be able to get a ridiculously low price on their aircraft. Airbus won't play their game forever either. And with 300+ Airbus on order at Delta they know they have a position of control. Now that Boeing is all but out of the picture they'll be less willing to negotiate on price. Delta will have no one else to turn and will be paying higher prices.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:49 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
I at least have bragging rights on my side. After the initial A350/330 order in 2014 I said Delta would never order another Boeing. I've been right so far.

In your own delusional head perhaps... but here on planet Earth, the rest of us realize that DL has twice since ordered new aircraft from Boeing, in 2015 and 2017.



TTailedTiger wrote:
For whatever reason Delta thinks they should be able to get a ridiculously low price on their aircraft.

Ain't that something? ...it's almost as though they were an entity whose primary objective was to maximize value for shareholders through (among other things) decreasing costs and expenditures to the lowest level legally possible.
Last edited by LAX772LR on Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
StTim
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:14 pm

It amazes me how people (from both fandoms) indulge in such petty arguments when the truth is so easilly proveable.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:25 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I at least have bragging rights on my side. After the initial A350/330 order in 2014 I said Delta would never order another Boeing. I've been right so far.

In your own delusional head perhaps... but here on planet Earth, the rest of us realize that DL has twice since ordered new aircraft from Boeing, in 2015 and 2017.



TTailedTiger wrote:
For whatever reason Delta thinks they should be able to get a ridiculously low price on their aircraft.

Ain't that something? ...it's almost as though they were an entity whose primary objective was to maximize value for shareholders through (among other things) decreasing costs and expenditures to the lowest level legally possible.


Boeing is also an entity that has the responsibility to maximize value for their investors. Their shareholders probably wouldn't like them selling aircraft to Delta for practically nothing.
 
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scbriml
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:29 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
I at least have bragging rights on my side. After the initial A350/330 order in 2014 I said Delta would never order another Boeing. I've been right so far.


You're only right if you ignore the 30 737-900 that Delta ordered after 2014. :wave:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:31 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Boeing is also an entity that has the responsibility to maximize value for their investors. Their shareholders probably wouldn't like them selling aircraft to Delta for practically nothing.


I would probably spend my time more productively watching car crash videos on YouTube than posting this, but... 1) Boeing is doing just fine with what it's getting paid for Delta's 737-900ER deliveries. 2) Boeing's most recent deals for large customers on 787-9s have been rumored to be for as much as $30M per frame less than what Delta was offered in 2014, which obviously changes the picture of future RFPs a bit.

You are basically arguing that Delta management acts like Cletus the pickup truck buyer who says he'd rather push his Chevy than drive a Ford. These are sophisticated businesspeople and they owe it to their shareholders to listen to all offers. Likewise, Boeing management owes it to their own shareholders to engage aggressively in sales campaigns for such a large and reliable customer, and they do. Delta's likely fleet turnover gives Boeing good opportunities in the next decade to sell both 737 MAX 8 and 787-9/-10 frames into Delta, and they'll give it their best shot.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:37 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Boeing is also an entity that has the responsibility to maximize value for their investors. Their shareholders probably wouldn't like them selling aircraft to Delta for practically nothing.

And that has nil' bearing on your ridiculous attempt at a point, because 1) it's not Delta's worry what Boeing shareholders think/feel, thus if 2) Boeing (or anyone else) agrees to do business at Delta's terms, then Delta has successfully done its exact duty to those whose interests are indeed its concern: its own investors.

Try again.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:48 pm

scbriml wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I at least have bragging rights on my side. After the initial A350/330 order in 2014 I said Delta would never order another Boeing. I've been right so far.


You're only right if you ignore the 30 737-900 that Delta ordered after 2014. :wave:


Those were options. And some of them were put options meaning Boeing had the rights to force Delta into taking additional 739s. Those options came at the previously agreed upon price so it's not like there was any RFP or negotiating. It's no secret that they got the 739 very cheap because of the 787 cancelation. Something had to be done with the deposits.

I find it odd that I get such negative reactions to this. The Airbus fits in fine with Delta's network and it serves them well. It just doesn't make sense to run both the 737 and A320 in a fleet. You lose out on a ton of flexibility.

Let's use a small hub such as SLC with both an A320 and 737 pilot base. You have an A320 scheduled to operate SLC-SFO but the aircraft gets hit by the catering truck and has to be taken out of service. But the only spare aircraft is a 737. Obviously that A320 crew can't fly it. So now you either have to wait for another A320 to come in or try and find a couple of reserve 737 pilots. Either way it will be a long delay. If you had the entire fleet of either A320 or 737 aircraft then this wouldn't have been an issue.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:53 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
meaning Boeing had the rights to force Delta into taking additional 739s.

That's more BS than a Kansas City stockyard.....



TTailedTiger wrote:
I find it odd that I get such negative reactions to this.

You think it's odd when more-knowledgeable people point out that you (so often) don't have a clue what you're talking about?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
moyangmm
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:04 am

trav777 wrote:
253 pax man...SQ is flying light.


But at the same time, J seats are heavier than Y seats, right? So we are not sure how much heavier or lighter SQ's config is compared to Airbus' reference config.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:06 am

LAX772LR wrote:
In your own delusional head perhaps... but here on planet Earth, the rest of us realize that DL has twice since ordered new aircraft from Boeing, in 2015 and 2017.


Ain't that something? ...it's almost as though they were an entity whose primary objective was to maximize value for shareholders through (among other things) decreasing costs and expenditures to the lowest level legally possible.


Technically once as the second order was Boeing's.

But yeah, let's ignore the multiple large orders to Airbus, the attempt to financially harm Boeing, the other public disputes, and instead count one tiny top-off order as evidence that they have a peachy relationship. It would take a massive shift for DL to order Airbus now. It would have to be on the level of when AA ordered from Airbus in 2011. The 787 has a very slim chance of flying with a widget anytime soon. You have to wonder if DL is losing out on better pricing for their orders.

Why it is so hard for some to accept reality? There's nothing "wrong" with DL going all-Airbus lately. Does it hurt the pride so much to admit Delta is clearly biased towards Airbus? It is what it is, and leave it at that.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:14 am

MSPNWA wrote:
But yeah, let's ignore the multiple large orders to Airbus

Non sequitur much?


MSPNWA wrote:
the attempt to financially harm Boeing

A claim that you could never in a million years objectively substantiate.


MSPNWA wrote:
the other public disputes

That came out in Deltas (and for that matter, everyone involved BUT Boeing) favor-- in case you weren't paying attention.

Funny how a Canadian aircraft is now about to be built in Alabama, mostly because Boeing just couldn't and let the market decide.



MSPNWA wrote:
and instead count one tiny top-off order as evidence that they have a peachy relationship.

Which no one here actually did. They simply stated it as a counterpoint to the 100% factually-incorrect statement of no Boeing orders since 20XX.

But hey, why let facts get in the way of an anti-Delta rant.... you never have before. :roll:
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
johns624
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:49 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
[
Let's use a small hub such as SLC with both an A320 and 737 pilot base. You have an A320 scheduled to operate SLC-SFO but the aircraft gets hit by the catering truck and has to be taken out of service. But the only spare aircraft is a 737. Obviously that A320 crew can't fly it. So now you either have to wait for another A320 to come in or try and find a couple of reserve 737 pilots. Either way it will be a long delay. If you had the entire fleet of either A320 or 737 aircraft then this wouldn't have been an issue.
Yet American and United operate fleets of both 737s and 320s.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:59 am

johns624 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
[
Let's use a small hub such as SLC with both an A320 and 737 pilot base. You have an A320 scheduled to operate SLC-SFO but the aircraft gets hit by the catering truck and has to be taken out of service. But the only spare aircraft is a 737. Obviously that A320 crew can't fly it. So now you either have to wait for another A320 to come in or try and find a couple of reserve 737 pilots. Either way it will be a long delay. If you had the entire fleet of either A320 or 737 aircraft then this wouldn't have been an issue.
Yet American and United operate fleets of both 737s and 320s.


Yes, due to mergers mostly. AA waited too long to start replacing the MD-80 and had no choice but to split the order. United has ordered nothing from Airbus since the merger. They took some used 320/319 to replace some RJ capacity but it will eventually be a Boeing fleet. You should have a look at their huge 737 order.

I think the US3 will eventually look like this:

UA: 737, 777, 787, 797 (maybe an E2 order for a 100 seat mainline jet)

DL: A220, A320, A330, A350

AA: A320, 737, 777, 787, 797 (wildcard of either A220 or E2)
 
NW747-400
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:37 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
johns624 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
[
Let's use a small hub such as SLC with both an A320 and 737 pilot base. You have an A320 scheduled to operate SLC-SFO but the aircraft gets hit by the catering truck and has to be taken out of service. But the only spare aircraft is a 737. Obviously that A320 crew can't fly it. So now you either have to wait for another A320 to come in or try and find a couple of reserve 737 pilots. Either way it will be a long delay. If you had the entire fleet of either A320 or 737 aircraft then this wouldn't have been an issue.
Yet American and United operate fleets of both 737s and 320s.


Yes, due to mergers mostly. AA waited too long to start replacing the MD-80 and had no choice but to split the order. United has ordered nothing from Airbus since the merger. They took some used 320/319 to replace some RJ capacity but it will eventually be a Boeing fleet. You should have a look at their huge 737 order.

I think the US3 will eventually look like this:

UA: 737, 777, 787, 797 (maybe an E2 order for a 100 seat mainline jet)

DL: A220, A320, A330, A350

AA: A320, 737, 777, 787, 797 (wildcard of either A220 or E2)



I’m going to place my bets on,

DL: A220, A320, A33N, A350, 739, 789, 797

I’m betting on a 787 order to replace A330CEO, B764 and some B763 combined with a 797 order to replace B763 and B75S. Lower acquisition costs of 787 now vs when the A359 order was placed makes the Boeing a lot more attractive. Ed Bastian is on record wanting the 797, so that’s Boeing’s order to lose. B739 deliveries are still in progress so they will be in the fleet for another 20 years at a minimum.
 
tommy1808
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:39 am

trav777 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
So, somehow Singapore Airlines manages to fly its A359 1700nm or 3.5 hrs further with just 5 ton more MTOW available to them?

~15 ton less pax, ~22 ton more fuel ..... delta 7 ton.

So...,since they don´t have A351s or 77W the Pilots at Delta are complaining that a 275t Aircraft can not haul what a 351t 77L can? Which has a smaller cabin, less cargo space and burns about a third more fuel?

Seriously?

best regards
Thomas


Huh? You mean the ULR? That's a 280t plane with half the passengers.


Both of which i accounted for.

The issue with DL was their 268t models couldn't do LAX-SYD with acceptable payloads.


No one ever claimed that a 268t A359 can do LAX-SYD with whatever payload Delta wants.

I've no doubt the 275t will do this segment which is WHY they uprated. They had to.


Apparently they had to upgrade to do it with the payload they want. They knew that going in, and to their dismay Airbus knew too, and didn´t give away the uprate for free.

Bigger question you SHOULD be asking is why isn't SQ deploying the base 359 on LAX-SIN.


you mean aside of that they do?

There's a very good reason why, the plane doesn't have the range.


Well, since they do fly that without using the ULR they obviously have the range.

AB's ranges are still overstated by 600nm bc their brochure/ACAPS whatever you wanna call it are using unrealistic configs.


They are obviously not doing that and we know that because there is a lot of info about SIN-JFK in the public domain, which just happens to match brochure ranges and ACAP very well. It would rather look like SQ hauled a couple of tons more all the way to JFK than one would expect based on said ACAPS, even if they did so with excessive fuel reserves they tankered all the way to their destination.

As far as this last post about "baseless conspiracy theories," um no, PAL, it's actual DL pilots. Who actually fly the plane.


Who flew the 268t version, the version that Delta decided to order, and where we have no indication that Airbus ever claimed it could do it with Delta´s configuration and payload demand.

So sorry that you do not like what they have to say as it interferes with your irrational brand loyalty


Oh, i have a very high brand loyalty. I have a much higher loyalty to data. SQ could not be flying SIN-JFK if a 268t A359 couldn´t do LAX-SYD. It is that simple.

moyangmm wrote:
trav777 wrote:
253 pax man...SQ is flying light.


But at the same time, J seats are heavier than Y seats, right? So we are not sure how much heavier or lighter SQ's config is compared to Airbus' reference config.


Isn´t it amazing how he not just knows the fuelburn at Delta straight out of ops, but also knows that SQ is not carrying any cargo ever on those flights?
Heck, it would seem today SQ is flying the 303 Seat config from LAX to SYD today......

trav777 wrote:
253pax on a 359 isn't even remotely close to typical.


pretty typical seat density for SQ actually. They fly their 77W with only 25 or 11 seats more, that is 10%/4% more seats in an 18% bigger cabin, i.e. an even "lighter" configuration.... how does SQ even exist?!?!

That said, if DL was having issues at 6500nm at 268t, 12 extra tons of MTOW does not get them to 8100. Period. No way, no how. Drop 70pax and maybe you're close. DL flies with 306.


And that is nonsense, as SQ could not fly SIN-JFK with 160 passengers if the 268t Version couldn´t take 306 Pax from LAX to SYD.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
moyangmm
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:59 am

tommy1808 wrote:
And that is nonsense, as SQ could not fly SIN-JFK with 160 passengers if the 268t Version couldn´t take 306 Pax from LAX to SYD.


Did you mean EWR? SQ has never flown to JFK.
 
tommy1808
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:16 am

moyangmm wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
And that is nonsense, as SQ could not fly SIN-JFK with 160 passengers if the 268t Version couldn´t take 306 Pax from LAX to SYD.


Did you mean EWR? SQ has never flown to JFK.


Ah yes, my mistake.... "JFK" is just the NYC area synonym in my head sometimes.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
majano
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:15 am

Michiganatc wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
Michiganatc wrote:

Non revs are available space only. If your upset they are bumped for revenue cargo then you need to re asses your life views.


rbavfan: Unbelievable. Show me anywhere in this thread where I or anyone else said that non-revs matter? It was just an example of how Delta’s A350’s often can’t carry full passenger and cargo loads on certain routes. To make you happy, let’s change the story to it being a full load of revenue passengers and then cargo gets bumped...Is that better? Next time, take the time to actually read what others post.

If the question of this thread is how the a350 is performing for DL and not what "someone's friend" said, then look no further than viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1411779
Post #28 (for now). Perhaps "someone's friend" is not really in the know?
 
Eyad89
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:38 am

seabosdca wrote:

And yet, in the real world, UA's 252-seat 787-9 flies the same route just fine with all seats full (but with little enough margin that it regularly had to block off 25+ seats on LAX-SIN) .



No one doubted 789's capability to fly SFO-SIN UA's 252-seat without any seat restriction.

On the other hand, SQ's SFO-SIN in that particular example had reserve fuel, potentially cargo, and heavier premium seats that would be too much for a 789 to take off with. The SQ's flight simply had more payload. A 789 needs to shed 2 tons at least to be able to take off, and that's doable by simply reducing the reserve fuel on that flight from 7.5 tons to 4.5 tons. Then it would barely take off with 1t less than MTOW. We don't know the cargo that SQ and UA would have on that route either.

If SQ's A359 on that flight had only 4.5t of reserve fuel instead of 7.5t, then it would have a room to add 8t of pax before it hits a MTOW of 276t, which means it can fly up to 253 + 80 = 333 passengers. Of course, that's only achievable if the seating configuration allows such a number of seats in the first place. I am only using that number for the sake of argument that A359 is nowhere near its pax/payload limit in that flight had a different seat config been implemented, and so comparing it to a 789 that takes off with 253t does not make sense.

seabosdca wrote:
I expect the difference is a combination of less reserve fuel than SQ carries and your numbers for both OEW and fuel burn of the 789 being a bit on the pessimistic side.



Feel free to correct those fuel burn figures, those numbers seem to be the most consistent figures we've seen from real world data. And those include the earlier deliveries of A359, more recent deliveries would get a 2% fuel improvement through aerodynamics and engine improvements.
 
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keesje
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:49 am

Delta has significant 767-300ER, 767-400ER, A330CEO and 757 fleet's. So be a prime NMA candidate theoretically. That will take many years.

Meanwhile they upped their A330NEO order, they are taking 15 A350 and delayed another 10. 20 777-200ER/LR take care of Pacific destinations. That's where future opportunity lays for the A350, but it's not a big fleet..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Eyad89
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:51 am

majano wrote:
Michiganatc wrote:
rbavfan wrote:


rbavfan: Unbelievable. Show me anywhere in this thread where I or anyone else said that non-revs matter? It was just an example of how Delta’s A350’s often can’t carry full passenger and cargo loads on certain routes. To make you happy, let’s change the story to it being a full load of revenue passengers and then cargo gets bumped...Is that better? Next time, take the time to actually read what others post.

If the question of this thread is how the a350 is performing for DL and not what "someone's friend" said, then look no further than viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1411779
Post #28 (for now). Perhaps "someone's friend" is not really in the know?



So DL's 276 MTOW variant flew with 238 pax + 25t of cargo, So a payload of almost 50 tons in a 12+ hour flight, yet DL is complaining!

I am starting to believe that this 'friend's friend' does not even exist.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:04 am

moyangmm wrote:
Did you mean EWR? SQ has never flown to JFK.

SQ has flown to JFK for decades, and still does.

Just that it's decided to keep JFK via FRA, and not nonstop.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
crownvic
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:31 am

I'm flying a domestic route today on the A350..ATL-LAS! Looking forward to it..
 
tommy1808
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:12 am

Eyad89 wrote:
majano wrote:
Michiganatc wrote:

rbavfan: Unbelievable. Show me anywhere in this thread where I or anyone else said that non-revs matter? It was just an example of how Delta’s A350’s often can’t carry full passenger and cargo loads on certain routes. To make you happy, let’s change the story to it being a full load of revenue passengers and then cargo gets bumped...Is that better? Next time, take the time to actually read what others post.

If the question of this thread is how the a350 is performing for DL and not what "someone's friend" said, then look no further than https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtop ... &t=1411779
Post #28 (for now). Perhaps "someone's friend" is not really in the know?



So DL's 276 MTOW variant flew with 238 pax + 25t of cargo, So a payload of almost 50 tons in a 12+ hour flight, yet DL is complaining!

I am starting to believe that this 'friend's friend' does not even exist.


So that means 42-43t for the 268t variant. Add fuel for 90 min, 10t, and we are looking at 33t LAX-SYD. ... plenty for a full cabin.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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scbriml
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:15 am

majano wrote:
If the question of this thread is how the a350 is performing for DL and not what "someone's friend" said, then look no further than viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1411779
Post #28 (for now). Perhaps "someone's friend" is not really in the know?


Things that make you go "Hmmm" :scratchchin:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
moyangmm
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:10 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
moyangmm wrote:
Did you mean EWR? SQ has never flown to JFK.

SQ has flown to JFK for decades, and still does.

Just that it's decided to keep JFK via FRA, and not nonstop.


Good point, thanks!
 
moyangmm
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:35 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Heck, it would seem today SQ is flying the 303 Seat config from LAX to SYD today......


I think you meant SIN, not SYD?

Can you provide a source for this? As far as I know there are two 303-seat a359 (aka "regional" a359) delivered: 9A-SHA and 9A-SHB; neither seems to have flown LAX-SIN.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/9v-sha
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/9v-shb
 
moyangmm
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:22 pm

Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:56 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
You may wish to inform SQ of that, seeing as standard A359s subbed in on LAX-SIN-LAX several times once the second flight began operating.


When did it happen? From flight24 record, it seems that all flights between LAX and SIN are operated by ULR frames (9V-SG*). Did I miss anything?

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/sq35
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/sq36
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/sq37
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/sq38

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