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QuawerAir
Posts: 814
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:44 am

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:12 pm

B747forever wrote:
Does anyone know how both SAS and Finnair are doing on their respective routes to LAX?

SAS has been flying to LAX a few years now, but noticed the flight is not daily this summer. I believe last summer it was served daily. LAX is the remaining route out of ARN besides the bog standard EWR/ORD, so maybe a candidate to be moved to CPH as HKG has been? Anyway, a couple of days ago I flew back home to LAX with SAS in business. It is the second time I have flown LAX-ARN-LAX in business, and I love their product. SAS has got it right this time, and their J class is one of the better ones when flying TATL.

Finnair launched HEL-LAX as 3x weekly year round, while SFO still is seasonal. They must have much more confidence in LAX working out for them. Have been trying to get 2 award seats in J, but seems impossible as all flights with availability only have 1 seat released for miles.

As far as I know, Finnair's SFO and LAX services do both very well. Not sure about ARN-LAX but I do consider the move of the route to CPH possible.
ATL, AYT, FRA, FUE, HEL, JFK, LCA, LHR, MUC | AY, BA, DL, FH, LH, LO | A320, A321, A333, 752, 764, 772, 788
The word "Quawer" means nothing but it looks great.
 
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SASViking
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:06 pm

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:01 pm

B747forever wrote:
Does anyone know how both SAS and Finnair are doing on their respective routes to LAX?

SAS has been flying to LAX a few years now, but noticed the flight is not daily this summer. I believe last summer it was served daily. LAX is the remaining route out of ARN besides the bog standard EWR/ORD, so maybe a candidate to be moved to CPH as HKG has been? Anyway, a couple of days ago I flew back home to LAX with SAS in business. It is the second time I have flown LAX-ARN-LAX in business, and I love their product. SAS has got it right this time, and their J class is one of the better ones when flying TATL.

Finnair launched HEL-LAX as 3x weekly year round, while SFO still is seasonal. They must have much more confidence in LAX working out for them. Have been trying to get 2 award seats in J, but seems impossible as all flights with availability only have 1 seat released for miles.


I wouldn't be surprised if SAS moved their LAX-service to CPH. The Swedish aviation tax and "flygskam" (Swedish meaning "Shame of flying") is hurting Swedish aviation a lot. They moved the HKG-service for two main reasons. 1) They got better slots at HKG however the new flight times matched better with other longhaul routes from CPH than ARN, making better use of their aircraft. 2) The Swedish aviation tax.
However there are two problems if SAS moved their LAX service. 1)The Swedes will be mad. They weren't happy when they moved the HKG service. 2) The possibility of hurting their current CPH-SFO service
Types flown: A319, A320, A32N, A321, A332, A333, A343, AT43, AT75, AT76, B717, B732, B735, B736, B737, B738, B752, B753, CRJ9, DC10, DH4D, DHC3, E135, E145, E175, E190, E195, F100, MD11, MD81, MD82, MD87, RJ1H
 
Oykie
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:04 pm

I agree SAS long haul product is really nice in all three classes. From Norway it was okay to fly through ARN, even though it feels like it’s going in the opposite direction. But so is CPH, even though it feels as a more spacious airport than ARN. As for flying from ARN it adds some 400 kroners for every seat and that’s 106000 pr flight or between 22 and 39 million pr year depending on frequency. It must be tempting to move it to CPH.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
Nami
Posts: 463
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:05 pm

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:36 pm

Oykie wrote:
As for flying from ARN it adds some 400 kroners for every seat and that’s 106000 pr flight or between 22 and 39 million pr year depending on frequency.


I don't know what percentage of passengers on the route are from Sweden, but it's not exactly every seat as transfer passengers are exempted from the tax.
 
Oykie
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:58 pm

Nami wrote:
Oykie wrote:
As for flying from ARN it adds some 400 kroners for every seat and that’s 106000 pr flight or between 22 and 39 million pr year depending on frequency.


I don't know what percentage of passengers on the route are from Sweden, but it's not exactly every seat as transfer passengers are exempted from the tax.


That’s a relief! I believe the decline of travelers in Sweden is due to this tax. Of course shaming each other does not help either, but I still believe the tax contribute more than the shaming.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
marcogr12
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:21 pm

What will happen to SAS' regional jet fleet with CR9s? How long will they stay in the fleet,now that Mitsubishi has bought off the CRJ program and intend to end it? Will SAS be looking for replacement types between E2-jets and CS series (or Airbus A220s)?
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
Oykie
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:31 pm

marcogr12 wrote:
What will happen to SAS' regional jet fleet with CR9s? How long will they stay in the fleet,now that Mitsubishi has bought off the CRJ program and intend to end it? Will SAS be looking for replacement types between E2-jets and CS series (or Airbus A220s)?


I my uneducated opinion the CR9 will stay with SAS for now. Personally I would love the A223 in SAS colors, but I believe SAS plans to use A320neo as their smallest mainline fleet for now.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
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SASViking
Posts: 144
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:32 pm

marcogr12 wrote:
What will happen to SAS' regional jet fleet with CR9s? How long will they stay in the fleet,now that Mitsubishi has bought off the CRJ program and intend to end it? Will SAS be looking for replacement types between E2-jets and CS series (or Airbus A220s)?


First of all, they don't belong to SAS. All the CRJs are operated and owned by CityJet, Air Nostrum and Nordica/Regional Jet. However I'm sure they'll stay for quiet a while. All the CityJet ones are very young. The CRJ-900s are also perfect for SAS, the C-series/A220s are too big so is the E190/E195-E2. They even leased two CRJ-1000s from Air Nostrum a few years ago. They were too big so they've changed it to two CRJ-900s for this summer.
Types flown: A319, A320, A32N, A321, A332, A333, A343, AT43, AT75, AT76, B717, B732, B735, B736, B737, B738, B752, B753, CRJ9, DC10, DH4D, DHC3, E135, E145, E175, E190, E195, F100, MD11, MD81, MD82, MD87, RJ1H
 
Someone83
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:42 pm

The CRJs are anyway rather new, and the sale of the program won’t have any implications here. What mather is who has the wetlease contract with SAS
 
SK A330-300
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2001 7:45 am

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:51 pm

Oykie wrote:
Nami wrote:
Oykie wrote:
As for flying from ARN it adds some 400 kroners for every seat and that’s 106000 pr flight or between 22 and 39 million pr year depending on frequency.


I don't know what percentage of passengers on the route are from Sweden, but it's not exactly every seat as transfer passengers are exempted from the tax.


That’s a relief! I believe the decline of travelers in Sweden is due to this tax. Of course shaming each other does not help either, but I still believe the tax contribute more than the shaming.


My personal opinion (as a swede) is that the decline in air travel in Sweden is mainly due to shaming each other (flygskam) and the weak Swedish currency. In third place I would put the tax.
 
Oykie
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:20 am

SK A330-300 wrote:
Oykie wrote:
Nami wrote:

I don't know what percentage of passengers on the route are from Sweden, but it's not exactly every seat as transfer passengers are exempted from the tax.


That’s a relief! I believe the decline of travelers in Sweden is due to this tax. Of course shaming each other does not help either, but I still believe the tax contribute more than the shaming.


My personal opinion (as a swede) is that the decline in air travel in Sweden is mainly due to shaming each other (flygskam) and the weak Swedish currency. In third place I would put the tax.


In my opinion the shaming is bad because it does nothing to solve the issue of more sustainable travel. I do hope that Scandinavia will lead the way in biofuel. SAS CEO has said that he wants the tax on aviation to go to develop an industry for biofuel.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:44 am

SKAirbus wrote:
Does anyone know when SK's OSL base will receive its first A320NEO? Those awful 737s can't be gone soon enough, especially the older ones which feel tired and worn.

Is it because of your username that you are so negative towards the 737's of SAS? I travelled on one last month between Tromsø and Oslo and there was nothing wrong with it. I am happy with each 737 flight, especially if it is a -600 or -700.

Some years ago I flew on the A320 of SAS and wasn't impressed either. The interior of their NEO is probably nicer, but so far I haven't been able to try it out. There will be plenty of time to experience the NEO. I will just enjoy the 737's of SAS while they last.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:57 am

MartijnNL wrote:
Some years ago I flew on the A320 of SAS and wasn't impressed either. The interior of their NEO is probably nicer, but so far I haven't been able to try it out.


The SAS A320neo interior is pretty much the same. It has USB chargers in the seat and isn't quite as worn as the ex-IndiGo A320ceo's, but thats about it.
 
SK A330-300
Posts: 77
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:10 am

[code][/code]
Oykie wrote:
SK A330-300 wrote:
Oykie wrote:

That’s a relief! I believe the decline of travelers in Sweden is due to this tax. Of course shaming each other does not help either, but I still believe the tax contribute more than the shaming.


My personal opinion (as a swede) is that the decline in air travel in Sweden is mainly due to shaming each other (flygskam) and the weak Swedish currency. In third place I would put the tax.


In my opinion the shaming is bad because it does nothing to solve the issue of more sustainable travel. I do hope that Scandinavia will lead the way in biofuel. SAS CEO has said that he wants the tax on aviation to go to develop an industry for biofuel.


No one (not even the government itself) belived that this tax would decrease air travel. Just limit the increase. As the level of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere needs to decrease, not just increase less, this tax does not save the planet in any way. One thing would be if they used this tax for R&D of sustainable air travel but that is not the case. It is just another tax income for the government.
 
kanye
Posts: 91
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:32 am

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:44 pm

VSMUT wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
Some years ago I flew on the A320 of SAS and wasn't impressed either. The interior of their NEO is probably nicer, but so far I haven't been able to try it out.


The SAS A320neo interior is pretty much the same. It has USB chargers in the seat and isn't quite as worn as the ex-IndiGo A320ceo's, but thats about it.



Most of A320 ceos are updated with new interiors and looks the same as Neo. I was in one of SAS oldest A321s recently and inside it looked brand new.
 
YIMBY
Posts: 596
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:30 pm

SK A330-300 wrote:
Oykie wrote:
SK A330-300 wrote:

My personal opinion (as a swede) is that the decline in air travel in Sweden is mainly due to shaming each other (flygskam) and the weak Swedish currency. In third place I would put the tax.


In my opinion the shaming is bad because it does nothing to solve the issue of more sustainable travel. I do hope that Scandinavia will lead the way in biofuel. SAS CEO has said that he wants the tax on aviation to go to develop an industry for biofuel.


No one (not even the government itself) belived that this tax would decrease air travel. Just limit the increase. As the level of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere needs to decrease, not just increase less, this tax does not save the planet in any way. One thing would be if they used this tax for R&D of sustainable air travel but that is not the case. It is just another tax income for the government.


As a tax it is a good tax if it increases tax income. One cannot increase the salary taxes forever.

Otherwise you are right that to save the planet the aviation has to do its part, too. This means flying less and flying more ecologically. Biofuels may not solve all as they produce equal contrails. Using props instead of jest would be a tremendous step forward, however, as they consume less fuel = emit less carbon dioxide and do not make contrails. If Sweden would want to help the climate, they should impose a specific jet tax - and other countries to follow.
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 316
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:17 pm

Has flygskam spread in the Nordic area beyond just Sweden to a significant degree ?

I'm not talking about just a few idealistic students... but to mean that people aged over 30 with good incomes in Norway, Denmark and Finland are actively choosing the train and domestic flight demand is showing a clear decrease in demand
 
kruiseri
Posts: 146
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:32 pm

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:26 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Has flygskam spread in the Nordic area beyond just Sweden to a significant degree ?

I'm not talking about just a few idealistic students... but to mean that people aged over 30 with good incomes in Norway, Denmark and Finland are actively choosing the train and domestic flight demand is showing a clear decrease in demand


Swedes can use train as an option. They have long distance train service to many european cities.

Finland is effectively an island. Train is not an option for travelling to central europe.
 
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SASViking
Posts: 144
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:45 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Has flygskam spread in the Nordic area beyond just Sweden to a significant degree ?

I'm not talking about just a few idealistic students... but to mean that people aged over 30 with good incomes in Norway, Denmark and Finland are actively choosing the train and domestic flight demand is showing a clear decrease in demand

I can only answer for Denmark. No, Flygskam is not that wide spread here. Nor is it growing that much. One thing that "helps" is that our train network is very outdated. The infrastructure is breaking down all the time, the InterCity trains and trains to Germany are from the late 80's-early 90's and very worn out. There's absolutely no service on the Danish trains, if you are lucky you can get a cold drink from a machine for 20DKK and if you're very, very lucky the train staff will sell you a tiny cup of instant coffee, also for 20DKK. And finally tickets are very expensive.
I don't want to be rude to my Swedish neighbours, but they've always been a bit extreme on the "PC-scale" compared to the rest of us :D
Types flown: A319, A320, A32N, A321, A332, A333, A343, AT43, AT75, AT76, B717, B732, B735, B736, B737, B738, B752, B753, CRJ9, DC10, DH4D, DHC3, E135, E145, E175, E190, E195, F100, MD11, MD81, MD82, MD87, RJ1H
 
cityairline
Posts: 658
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:29 am

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:11 pm

Oykie wrote:
I agree SAS long haul product is really nice in all three classes. From Norway it was okay to fly through ARN, even though it feels like it’s going in the opposite direction. But so is CPH, even though it feels as a more spacious airport than ARN. As for flying from ARN it adds some 400 kroners for every seat and that’s 106000 pr flight or between 22 and 39 million pr year depending on frequency. It must be tempting to move it to CPH.

Many people forget that they made a special deal for US-bound flights, and think that the tax is 400SEK as for other long hauls. This is a mistake!
Actually, US-bound flights are ’’only’’ charged 250SEK, just like a medium haul flight.

And then, don’t forget that you only pay the tax in one direction, going from Sweden to the US, so the average cost per passenger/per flight should be counted as half of that (125SEK).
I don't fly to live, I live to fly...
 
SK A330-300
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2001 7:45 am

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:16 pm

YIMBY wrote:
SK A330-300 wrote:
Oykie wrote:

In my opinion the shaming is bad because it does nothing to solve the issue of more sustainable travel. I do hope that Scandinavia will lead the way in biofuel. SAS CEO has said that he wants the tax on aviation to go to develop an industry for biofuel.


No one (not even the government itself) belived that this tax would decrease air travel. Just limit the increase. As the level of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere needs to decrease, not just increase less, this tax does not save the planet in any way. One thing would be if they used this tax for R&D of sustainable air travel but that is not the case. It is just another tax income for the government.


As a tax it is a good tax if it increases tax income. One cannot increase the salary taxes forever.

Otherwise you are right that to save the planet the aviation has to do its part, too. This means flying less and flying more ecologically. Biofuels may not solve all as they produce equal contrails. Using props instead of jest would be a tremendous step forward, however, as they consume less fuel = emit less carbon dioxide and do not make contrails. If Sweden would want to help the climate, they should impose a specific jet tax - and other countries to follow.


It is true that it is a good way to increase tax income for the government but the government stated that the reason for introducing the tax was the climate change. If the tax is supposed to anything good for the climate it should be invested in R&D and not just become another tax income for the government.
 
cityairline
Posts: 658
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:29 am

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:28 pm

While talking about the Swedish Flygskam and decrease in air travel, I would actually appreciate if you separate or specify ARN and GOT from each other. Yes, domestic travel is decreasing like crazy at both airports, but when talking about international air travel (which is the most important in Sweden at 80%), ARN is shrinking while GOT is growing.
I am ofcourse aware that ARN is our most important airport. But when one of our two only major international airports is growing, and one is shrinking, I find it very odd that people are suddenly speaking of the decline of air travel in Sweden in general.

GOT is doing fine and will se a new international pax record this year.
I don't fly to live, I live to fly...
 
Bostrom
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:10 pm

SASViking wrote:
I don't want to be rude to my Swedish neighbours, but they've always been a bit extreme on the "PC-scale" compared to the rest of us :D


Well, you do have a point. The political debate in Sweden can be a bit extreme at times.

But, to derail the thread a bit, I wish you would to something about your rail network.
 
Bostrom
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:12 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Has flygskam spread in the Nordic area beyond just Sweden to a significant degree ?


I have the impression that it has spread a bit in Norway.
 
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SASViking
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:27 pm

Bostrom wrote:
SASViking wrote:
I don't want to be rude to my Swedish neighbours, but they've always been a bit extreme on the "PC-scale" compared to the rest of us :D


Well, you do have a point. The political debate in Sweden can be a bit extreme at times.

But, to derail the thread a bit, I wish you would to something about your rail network.

We've slowly begun. A few weeks ago a new 250 kph high-speed line opened, except it's not fully operational yet and we don't have any trains going faster than 180 kph. It's a part of the new link between Copenhagen and Hamburg, which also includes a new tunnel under Fehmarn Belt. The full new high-speed line all the way to Hamburg is scheduled to open in 2028, cutting the journey times from ~5 hours including a 45 minute ferry crossing to 3:15. I'm sure airlines operating to HAM and BER etc will feel an impact. However due to the geography of this country, train travel will never be a massive competitor to the airlines
Types flown: A319, A320, A32N, A321, A332, A333, A343, AT43, AT75, AT76, B717, B732, B735, B736, B737, B738, B752, B753, CRJ9, DC10, DH4D, DHC3, E135, E145, E175, E190, E195, F100, MD11, MD81, MD82, MD87, RJ1H
 
Someone83
Posts: 4263
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:20 am

Bostrom wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
Has flygskam spread in the Nordic area beyond just Sweden to a significant degree ?


I have the impression that it has spread a bit in Norway.


But in reality, not that much. Due to the distances, slow trains and the distance fro mthe rest of Europe. Both Domestic and International transport is dependent on flying.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 2799
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:28 am

SASViking wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
Has flygskam spread in the Nordic area beyond just Sweden to a significant degree ?

I'm not talking about just a few idealistic students... but to mean that people aged over 30 with good incomes in Norway, Denmark and Finland are actively choosing the train and domestic flight demand is showing a clear decrease in demand

I can only answer for Denmark. No, Flygskam is not that wide spread here. Nor is it growing that much. One thing that "helps" is that our train network is very outdated. The infrastructure is breaking down all the time, the InterCity trains and trains to Germany are from the late 80's-early 90's and very worn out. There's absolutely no service on the Danish trains, if you are lucky you can get a cold drink from a machine for 20DKK and if you're very, very lucky the train staff will sell you a tiny cup of instant coffee, also for 20DKK. And finally tickets are very expensive.
I don't want to be rude to my Swedish neighbours, but they've always been a bit extreme on the "PC-scale" compared to the rest of us :D


Flygskam isn't widespread among danes, but believe it or not, I have noticed that the number of Swedish passengers travelling through on Danish trains has massively increased.

And yes, Danish trains and railways are a complete disgrace.
 
Someone83
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:32 am

LATAM Cargo has started a 1x weekly 767-300F service from CPH to Brazil

https://aircargoworld.com/allposts/new- ... n-america/

LATAM Cargo will operate an initial weekly service with a 767-300F, connecting Copenhagen (CPH)-Viracopos (VCP)-Montevideo (MVD)-Santiago (SCL)-Quito (UIO) before returning to CPH via Miami (MIA)-Brussels (BRU). The carrier said in today’s press release that the service is expected to carry between 20 and 25 tonnes of cargo per flight.
 
Blerg
Posts: 2004
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:24 am

How is the tax affecting Malmo? I guess for them it's the easiest to cross into Denmark to catch a cheaper flight
 
Bostrom
Posts: 770
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:55 pm

Blerg wrote:
How is the tax affecting Malmo? I guess for them it's the easiest to cross into Denmark to catch a cheaper flight


That has pretty much been the case since the Öresund bridge opened. From Malmö central station it is 20 minutes by train to CPH or 40 minutes by bus to MMX.
 
Blerg
Posts: 2004
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:15 am

Bostrom wrote:
Blerg wrote:
How is the tax affecting Malmo? I guess for them it's the easiest to cross into Denmark to catch a cheaper flight


That has pretty much been the case since the Öresund bridge opened. From Malmö central station it is 20 minutes by train to CPH or 40 minutes by bus to MMX.


I guess without Wizz Air, MMX would have been in deep trouble.
 
Someone83
Posts: 4263
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:57 am

Blerg wrote:
I guess without Wizz Air, MMX would have been in deep trouble.



Wizzair, the route to Stockholm (SAS, Norwegian and BRA) and charter flights Sunny destination, pretty much sums up what MMX has
 
minilinde
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:16 am

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:04 am

And some cargo flights...
 
Someone83
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Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:55 am

Singapore Airlines is upgrading SIN-CPH from 5x weekly to daily flight, all with A350-900 fra Jan 2. 2020

Article in Danish:
https://standby.dk/singapore-airlines-o ... -lufthavn/
 
Blerg
Posts: 2004
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:53 am

How is MMX performing as far as finances go? Are they profitable?
 
trent768
Posts: 116
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:32 pm

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:29 pm

SASViking wrote:
I can only answer for Denmark. No, Flygskam is not that wide spread here. Nor is it growing that much. One thing that "helps" is that our train network is very outdated. The infrastructure is breaking down all the time, the InterCity trains and trains to Germany are from the late 80's-early 90's and very worn out. There's absolutely no service on the Danish trains, if you are lucky you can get a cold drink from a machine for 20DKK and if you're very, very lucky the train staff will sell you a tiny cup of instant coffee, also for 20DKK. And finally tickets are very expensive.
I don't want to be rude to my Swedish neighbours, but they've always been a bit extreme on the "PC-scale" compared to the rest of us :D

Foreign student living in Sweden here!
Yes I agree, this sustainable and "ekologisk" thing is getting out of hand here in Sweden, especially among the Swedish university students. The level of hypocrisy among these people is sickening though. A girl in my corridor stuffed her part of the fridge with this over-priced "ekologisk" stuff, yet keeps throwing plastic into the compost paper bag. The exact same type of people also turned my uni's grass field into a sea of trash during Valborg. Ecologist my butt...

Regarding the flygskam, I don't think that it is a big thing here in Norrland. I mean, even with the expensive snabbtåg, the trip from Umeå to Stockholm still takes around 6-7 hours. Faster only by around 1-1,5 hour compared to the cheaper night train and sometimes have the same price as DY to ARN which only took 1 hr.
 
Bostrom
Posts: 770
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:56 pm

SASViking wrote:
We've slowly begun. A few weeks ago a new 250 kph high-speed line opened, except it's not fully operational yet and we don't have any trains going faster than 180 kph. It's a part of the new link between Copenhagen and Hamburg, which also includes a new tunnel under Fehmarn Belt. The full new high-speed line all the way to Hamburg is scheduled to open in 2028, cutting the journey times from ~5 hours including a 45 minute ferry crossing to 3:15. I'm sure airlines operating to HAM and BER etc will feel an impact.


The Copenhagen-Køge-Ringsted line is a great improvement. But what I'd love to see in Denmark is more electrification, the constant smell of diesel exhaust at larger stations is not that nice.

SASViking wrote:
However due to the geography of this country, train travel will never be a massive competitor to the airlines


I don't mean to be rude, but as a Swede that statement doesn't make sense. Mainland Denmark is a small country. I see no reason why train travel shouldn't be able to be a massive competitor to the airlines, apart from routes to Bornholm, the Faroes and Greenland of course.
 
Bostrom
Posts: 770
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:10 pm

Blerg wrote:
How is MMX performing as far as finances go? Are they profitable?


I don't know, when it was run by Luftfartsverket (The Civil Aviation Administration) it was profitable. But I don't know how it has performed since it was handed over to Swedavia since it seems like they don't publish the figures for individual airports.
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 316
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:49 pm

SASViking has a point in that if one draws a straight line between major population centres in Denmark and (to a lesser degree) northern Germany / southern Sweden, there is often a big area of water en route. Yes you can go round the water but that takes more time which gives flying an advantage over trains
 
SKAirbus
Posts: 1527
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:18 pm

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:15 am

Bostrom wrote:
I don't mean to be rude, but as a Swede that statement doesn't make sense. Mainland Denmark is a small country. I see no reason why train travel shouldn't be able to be a massive competitor to the airlines, apart from routes to Bornholm, the Faroes and Greenland of course.


Have you ever taken the train from Copenhagen to Aalborg? If you take the Lyntog (the fastest train operating in Denmark) it takes 4 hours and 52 minutes which is a long journey for such a small country.

Given the close proximity of Kastrup Airport to Copenhagen city and Aalborg Airport to Aalborg City flying is generally much faster than taking public transport.
Base: BRU
 
Blerg
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:42 am

I see that Wizz Air plans on operating the A321 on VIE-OSL starting from December, isn't that a bit of an overkill? Is there really that much demand between the two cities?
 
Bostrom
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:46 am

SKAirbus wrote:
Have you ever taken the train from Copenhagen to Aalborg? If you take the Lyntog (the fastest train operating in Denmark) it takes 4 hours and 52 minutes which is a long journey for such a small country.


I've only been to Ålborg once and that was by car. But I'm aware that the train there is pretty slow, but I don't it has to do with the distance but the state of the railways. Copenhagen-Ålborg via the existing bridges is shorter than Stockholm-Gothenburg, where the train takes about three hours. And with a bit of higher speed stretches, it should be possible to do Copenhagen-Ålborg in 2 hours and 30 minutes.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:48 am

Bostrom wrote:
SASViking wrote:
However due to the geography of this country, train travel will never be a massive competitor to the airlines


I don't mean to be rude, but as a Swede that statement doesn't make sense. Mainland Denmark is a small country. I see no reason why train travel shouldn't be able to be a massive competitor to the airlines, apart from routes to Bornholm, the Faroes and Greenland of course.


If you want to go anywhere in the country, it means crossing water. Bridges and tunnels are phenomenally expensive, so we only have 1 connection over each major strait. That sets a tremendous limitation. It means that you can only feasibly run 1 rail line anywhere, ergo you can't have dedicated parallel high speed lines like in Germany. That means all services, freight, commuter trains and intercity services all have to run on a single mainline. In short, the railways are also congested.
And then the geography, as mentioned above. The bridge/tunnel connections run over Fyn. In a direct line, Copenhagen - Aalborg is about 220 km. By rail it is over 400 km. Copenhagen - Aarhus is 150 km direct, 300 km by rail.


Bostrom wrote:
SKAirbus wrote:
Have you ever taken the train from Copenhagen to Aalborg? If you take the Lyntog (the fastest train operating in Denmark) it takes 4 hours and 52 minutes which is a long journey for such a small country.


I've only been to Ålborg once and that was by car. But I'm aware that the train there is pretty slow, but I don't it has to do with the distance but the state of the railways. Copenhagen-Ålborg via the existing bridges is shorter than Stockholm-Gothenburg, where the train takes about three hours. And with a bit of higher speed stretches, it should be possible to do Copenhagen-Ålborg in 2 hours and 30 minutes.


They could be improved, but there is only so much you can do. Same problem as before, all the stopping services and freight trains run on the same rails.
Last edited by VSMUT on Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
LN-KGL
Posts: 819
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:48 am

SKAirbus wrote:
Have you ever taken the train from Copenhagen to Aalborg? If you take the Lyntog (the fastest train operating in Denmark) it takes 4 hours and 52 minutes which is a long journey for such a small country.

Given the close proximity of Kastrup Airport to Copenhagen city and Aalborg Airport to Aalborg City flying is generally much faster than taking public transport.


The train speeds in Denmark seems to be ridiculously slow - average speed between Copenhagen and Aalborg is 85 km/h. Even a country I'm familiar with, Ukraine, has trains (Hyundai Rotem EMU ICE trains) that average over 100 km/h on really bad rails between Kyiv and Dnipro. I wonder why Denmark has such antiquated rail lines and hardware.
 
DKNOFF
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:21 am

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:43 am

SKAirbus wrote:
Have you ever taken the train from Copenhagen to Aalborg? If you take the Lyntog (the fastest train operating in Denmark) it takes 4 hours and 52 minutes which is a long journey for such a small country.


You forget one thing. Population density and through-transit. The 'Lyntog' makes a lot of stops. A true 'Lyntog' concept would be Copenhagen-Odense-Aarhus-Aalborg with no intermediate stops, which would be doable in about 3-3,5 hours. There used to be a plan to have this, but it died somewhere along the political process. Also the Danish rail lines are congested due to both passenger traffic and cargo transit Sweden/Norway-Germany. Already now it is not physically possible to run more trains on the Øresund section, and until recently the Copenhagen-Roskilde section. It really is the scheduling that kills this 'Lyntog, and the fact that Denmark is the densest populated country in the Nordics which require many stops between the 'big' cities.

LN-KGL wrote:

The train speeds in Denmark seems to be ridiculously slow - average speed between Copenhagen and Aalborg is 85 km/h. Even a country I'm familiar with, Ukraine, has trains (Hyundai Rotem EMU ICE trains) that average over 100 km/h on really bad rails between Kyiv and Dnipro.


It is not 'just' about the equipment, but rather the number of stops enroute and the layout of the tracks. Particularly around Vejle, Horsens and Skanderborg the track is making a lot of curves. That is the 'hilly' part of Denmark.

The biggest issue with Danish rail is really the lack of electrification. Currently only the main routes have electricity, and expanding that has not been a priority thus far. The new government will likely speed up that process, and also do more about track maintenance.

Denmark has also focused on bigger projects like the Great Belt Bridge, Oresund Bridge, Fehmarn Bridge (incl. new high speed section between Copenhagen and Ringsted) and expanding the Metro in Copenhagen. Next projects will most likely be further Metro expansion in Copenhagen and discussions about a new Kattegat Bridge (which will ease the pressure on Great Belt Bridge), Helsingör-Helsingborg Bridge (which will ease the pressure on Oresund Bridge) and more tracks/capacity on the Copenhagen Central - CPH Kastrup Airport route.
 
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SASViking
Posts: 144
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:47 pm

AIS Airlines changes it's current GRQ-CPH route to FMO-GRQ-CPH. Flights will be operated twice daily in each direction from September 2nd operated by Jetstream J32 aircraft. That's probably the first time ever that CPH will have a route to Münster/Osnabrück.

Link: https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... -sep-2019/
Types flown: A319, A320, A32N, A321, A332, A333, A343, AT43, AT75, AT76, B717, B732, B735, B736, B737, B738, B752, B753, CRJ9, DC10, DH4D, DHC3, E135, E145, E175, E190, E195, F100, MD11, MD81, MD82, MD87, RJ1H
 
Bostrom
Posts: 770
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:08 pm

Haven't seen this mentioned, but Swedish Lapland will get a new route next year. Eurowings will fly Cologne/Bonn-Arvidsjaur once a week from 2020-01-17 to 2020-03-16.

EW5596 CGN0905 – 1155AJR 32A 5
EW5597 AJR1355 – 1645CGN 32A 1

Source: https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e-in-1q20/
 
Tristarsteve
Posts: 3588
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:04 pm

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:25 pm

Bostrom wrote:
Haven't seen this mentioned, but Swedish Lapland will get a new route next year. Eurowings will fly Cologne/Bonn-Arvidsjaur once a week from 2020-01-17 to 2020-03-16.

EW5596 CGN0905 – 1155AJR 32A 5
EW5597 AJR1355 – 1645CGN 32A 1

Source: https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e-in-1q20/


Selling seats on the positioning flights after the car testers charters.
 
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SRQKEF
Posts: 1847
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:10 pm

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:00 pm

Blerg wrote:
I see that Wizz Air plans on operating the A321 on VIE-OSL starting from December, isn't that a bit of an overkill? Is there really that much demand between the two cities?


They fly an A321 on VIE-KEF as well. I guess the A321 is just becoming a larger proportion of the fleet, so you see it added to more routes.
Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 316
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:45 pm

Details of flights between Germany and Arvdisjaur at www.fly-car.de

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