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SQ22
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Indian Aviation Thread - January 2019

Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:32 pm

Welcome to the Indian aviation thread for 2019. Please continue to post your updates and to add your comments here.

Link to previous thread of 2018:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1390969
 
binayak
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Re: Indian aviation thread 2019

Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:08 pm

Happy new year to everyone here!!
To summarize 2018 has seen Indian aviation achieve various milestones :
1. G8 started flying international
2. 6E grew to 200+ aircrafts
3. US airlines have once again started showing interest in India service
4. Fifth year of double digit growth
5. New regional airports getting better connectivity than ever before.
Feel free to add more to the list......!!
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
vadodara
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Re: Indian aviation thread 2019

Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:12 pm

Wish 2019 is a year of consolidation for Indian aviation.

Great to see the aspirations for 2nd and 3rd tier cities are not held back by govt policy.

May Udaan soar to its true potential
 
Blerg
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Re: Indian aviation thread 2019

Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:57 pm

Starting from 02.04.2019 AF will be increasing CDG-DEL from 5 to 6 weekly flights operated by the A332.

By the way, can anyone predict if Air Asia India will make it long-term? What are their prospects like?
 
avier
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Re: Indian aviation thread 2019

Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:02 pm

Blerg wrote:

By the way, can anyone predict if Air Asia India will make it long-term? What are their prospects like?


They have a corruption probe against them currently. So until that's cleared, they can't fly int'l. So then depends how much losses they can bare from continuing domestic only ops.
Personally, I don't see a future for them here, the sooner they go the better.
 
vadodara
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Re: Indian aviation thread 2019

Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:12 pm

Blerg wrote:

By the way, can anyone predict if Air Asia India will make it long-term? What are their prospects like?


The 5/20 rule essentially killed them.
They can’t expand domestically because the infrastructure is constrained; with the constraints they might as well expand SE Asia to India for international.

Tata’s themselves are betting on a Bombay based full service airline.
 
Blerg
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Re: Indian aviation thread 2019

Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:27 pm

Thank you both for your answers. What is the corruption probe all about?

Seems like they are a rather small/insignificant player on the domestic market, especially with IndiGo expanding left and right.
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:28 am

A happy new year to the contributors and readers of the Indian Aviation Thread. May your happiness increase like IndiGo's fleet and your worries shrink like Jet's marketshare.

What does 2019 hold for Indian aviation?
Domestic traffic growth will fall below 10%
Fleet induction will slow down considerably from record highs seen in 2018
More congestion at airports
Push for international expansion, especially by SpiceJet and IndiGo
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
anshabhi
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:30 am

Air India will become profitable on 1st April 2019
 
VTCIE
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:46 am

Happy New Year to all. If the original 2018 thread was continued instead of a second thread being opened, the 2018 thread would have comfortably crossed 3000+ posts.

This is an exciting time for IndiGo as we may see routes as diverse as BLR-IST, MNL-DEL and BOM-LGW (1 stop). Can 6E repeat what Norwegian did without bleeding cash?

Jet Airways and AirAsia IN continue to spiral down, SpiceJet is first in product innovation as always, Vistara is still finding its footing and GoAir may turn out to be the real dark horse in 2019.

Finally, pray that whoever gets elected this year should maintain and improve UDAN and accelerate the privatn. of airports so that more Indians can get a better flying experience than ever before.
In grieving remembrance of the thousands of people who lost their lives on ET-AVJ, PK-LQP, XA-UHZ, S2-AGU, CP-2933, SU-GCC, EI-ETJ, D-AIPX, PK-AXC, 9M-MRD, VT-AXV and above all 9M-MRO, besides many more. Your deaths are not in vain. Safety first, always.
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:31 am

India is expected to hold talks regarding expansion of bilateral rights with 9 countries on the sidelines of Global Aviation Summit in Mumbai later this month
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 331351.cms
Last edited by unrave on Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
anshabhi
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:32 am

Yeah. 2019 is very likely to be the year when we will have WiFi in Indian skies
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:41 am

VTCIE wrote:
If the original 2018 thread was continued instead of a second thread being opened, the 2018 thread would have comfortably crossed 3000+ posts.

Let us beat the Australian thread this year
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
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Viman
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:50 pm

In 2018 Indigo was already showing signs of a monopoly player, dumping capacity to drive out other Airlines then raising the prices, hopefully Spice Jet and Go Air fight back in 2019 and stop or at least minimise the monopoly ways of Indigo.

An example will be the recent withdrawal of Air Asia from Nagpur, Surat, Ahmedabad. I checked last week and The ticket price from Nagpur to Bangalore was cheaper till 15th Jan at 2k INR but rises to till 3k INR even if your flight date is 2-3 weeks from 15th Jan.

Similar thing happened in Tripura where Chief Minister himself had to call out Indigo on its monopoly behaviour. The embarrassed Indigo had to reduce their monopoly loot from 150% increase in ticket prices to 50%: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 423453.cms
 
Blerg
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:56 pm

I was curious, what competitive advantage would IndiGo have over its competition on flights to Europe? Let's take Istanbul, why would someone suffer for five, six hours on an LCC with absolutely no service when there is TK with its state of the art onboard product? Same thing with London where fares aren't that high?

What's IndiGo betting on?
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:04 pm

Viman wrote:
In 2018 Indigo was already showing signs of a monopoly player, dumping capacity to drive out other Airlines then raising the prices, hopefully Spice Jet and Go Air fight back in 2019 and stop or at least minimise the monopoly ways of Indigo.

An example will be the recent withdrawal of Air Asia from Nagpur, Surat, Ahmedabad. I checked last week and The ticket price from Nagpur to Bangalore was cheaper till 15th Jan at 2k INR but rises to till 3k INR even if your flight date is 2-3 weeks from 15th Jan.

Similar thing happened in Tripura where Chief Minister himself had to call out Indigo on its monopoly behaviour. The embarrassed Indigo had to reduce their monopoly loot from 150% increase in ticket prices to 50%: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 423453.cms

Competition is good, monopolies are bad. Precisely the reason why we need strong rivals to IndiGo. However I doubt if any airline would reduce its prices out of embarrassment.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:30 pm

Blerg wrote:
I was curious, what competitive advantage would IndiGo have over its competition on flights to Europe? Let's take Istanbul, why would someone suffer for five, six hours on an LCC with absolutely no service when there is TK with its state of the art onboard product? Same thing with London where fares aren't that high?

What's IndiGo betting on?


Fares might be low, but that doesn't mean everyone can still afford that in a country that barely flies. So for by going still lower, they can stimulate and open up a whole new market of fliers that wouldn't have thought of holidaying in Europe. And by being the lowest fare option with a one stop, those fliers wouldn't care, and still take 6E over more convenient or premium options.
One thing to remember is India is a very price sensitive market.
 
Blerg
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:35 pm

avier wrote:
Blerg wrote:
I was curious, what competitive advantage would IndiGo have over its competition on flights to Europe? Let's take Istanbul, why would someone suffer for five, six hours on an LCC with absolutely no service when there is TK with its state of the art onboard product? Same thing with London where fares aren't that high?

What's IndiGo betting on?


Fares might be low, but that doesn't mean everyone can still afford that in a country that barely flies. So for by going still lower, they can stimulate and open up a whole new market of fliers that wouldn't have thought of holidaying in Europe. And by being the lowest fare option with a one stop, those fliers wouldn't care, and still take 6E over more convenient or premium options.
One thing to remember is India is a very price sensitive market.


That I understand but at the same time how long can IndiGo make it work with such low fares? I mean flying medium and long-haul isn't cheap as we've all seen from DY's experience.
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:40 pm

Blerg wrote:
That I understand but at the same time how long can IndiGo make it work with such low fares? I mean flying medium and long-haul isn't cheap as we've all seen from DY's experience.

The correct answer is - nobody knows. It is good that they did not jump headlong into the long haul market and order 50 A330neos as rumoured. Using A321neos allows them to test the waters. It the strategy fails the planes can always be deployed in the domestic market.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:43 pm

Blerg wrote:
avier wrote:
Blerg wrote:
I was curious, what competitive advantage would IndiGo have over its competition on flights to Europe? Let's take Istanbul, why would someone suffer for five, six hours on an LCC with absolutely no service when there is TK with its state of the art onboard product? Same thing with London where fares aren't that high?

What's IndiGo betting on?


Fares might be low, but that doesn't mean everyone can still afford that in a country that barely flies. So for by going still lower, they can stimulate and open up a whole new market of fliers that wouldn't have thought of holidaying in Europe. And by being the lowest fare option with a one stop, those fliers wouldn't care, and still take 6E over more convenient or premium options.
One thing to remember is India is a very price sensitive market.


That I understand but at the same time how long can IndiGo make it work with such low fares? I mean flying medium and long-haul isn't cheap as we've all seen from DY's experience.


DY went a bit too far getting 787's and opening multiple bases. 6E is not doing that. Their getting a narrow body for long haul flights and that fits well in their current fleet. And they will test the waters with places like Istanbul and London before going further long haul. They will definitely not go crazy like DY.
 
Blerg
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:50 pm

I understand the whole point about their fleet so basically their only selling point will be their low fares. Do they have a loyalty club?
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:56 pm

Blerg wrote:
I understand the whole point about their fleet so basically their only selling point will be their low fares. Do they have a loyalty club?

Nope, nothing.
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sand26391
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:29 pm

Thai AirAsia has increased freq on the DMK-BLR sector from 5x to DAILY, till 31MAR19.
 
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Viman
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:56 pm

unrave wrote:
Viman wrote:
In 2018 Indigo was already showing signs of a monopoly player, dumping capacity to drive out other Airlines then raising the prices, hopefully Spice Jet and Go Air fight back in 2019 and stop or at least minimise the monopoly ways of Indigo.

An example will be the recent withdrawal of Air Asia from Nagpur, Surat, Ahmedabad. I checked last week and The ticket price from Nagpur to Bangalore was cheaper till 15th Jan at 2k INR but rises to till 3k INR even if your flight date is 2-3 weeks from 15th Jan.

Similar thing happened in Tripura where Chief Minister himself had to call out Indigo on its monopoly behaviour. The embarrassed Indigo had to reduce their monopoly loot from 150% increase in ticket prices to 50%: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 423453.cms

Competition is good, monopolies are bad. Precisely the reason why we need strong rivals to IndiGo. However I doubt if any airline would reduce its prices out of embarrassment.


Of course Indigo did not reduce the price hike from 150% to 50% out of embarrassment, A state Chief Minister was calling them out and could have led to a Competition commission of India investigation into Indigo's practise of dumping capacity, making others leave and then jacking up prices. The only reason Indigo is not able to do this in metro cities is that there is still good competition there but with Air India and Jet Airways both in disarray we cannot expect much competition in future.

It would be nice if Goyal sold Jet to Tata or Etihad and Qatar airways permitted to open the Indian airlines Mr Al Baker is shouting about, the 49% Qatar Airways plus 51% Qatar Investment Fund should be good enough when we have allowed 100% FDI in Airlines sector.

If something is not done in the next three years to cultivate more competition even the metro cities will see monopolistic behaviour of Indigo and it will be too late to do anything at that time.
 
vadodara
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:58 pm

Blerg wrote:
I was curious, what competitive advantage would IndiGo have over its competition on flights to Europe? Let's take Istanbul, why would someone suffer for five, six hours on an LCC with absolutely no service when there is TK with its state of the art onboard product? Same thing with London where fares aren't that high?

What's IndiGo betting on?


Umm, check the size and growth rate of Indian market before IndiGo. Perhaps you need to give them more credit.

Regarding the international routes, India’s geography is not amenable for a hub-spoke system. Even in US, majority of hubs have been dismantled or downsized.

IndiGo founders are certainly aware of these changes, the capabilities of new generation aircraft and so forth.

The NEO bet was not taken for nothing. It is too bad the engine has not lived up to the expectations. At any rate those problems will get fixed and one can easily expect a 3k+ mile range from these aircraft.

Draw a great circle arc from E, W, N and S India and see what falls within this arc.
 
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Irehdna
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:16 am

Apparently there is huge disaster at BOM regarding AI flights. Both NY and London flights delayed (no updates on take off time), and most domestic check in counters closed (per Twitter).
 
anshabhi
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:10 am

Irehdna wrote:
Apparently there is huge disaster at BOM regarding AI flights. Both NY and London flights delayed (no updates on take off time), and most domestic check in counters closed (per Twitter).

AI 191 to EWR took off only 40 mins late, AI 131 to LHR was 5 hours late, cause not clear but apart from that, domestic ops seem just normal

Fares on DEL-BLR for next 1 month have dropped by upto 20% following the ATF price cut. (As per my own research)
 
Blerg
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:16 am

vadodara wrote:
Blerg wrote:
I was curious, what competitive advantage would IndiGo have over its competition on flights to Europe? Let's take Istanbul, why would someone suffer for five, six hours on an LCC with absolutely no service when there is TK with its state of the art onboard product? Same thing with London where fares aren't that high?

What's IndiGo betting on?


Umm, check the size and growth rate of Indian market before IndiGo. Perhaps you need to give them more credit.

Regarding the international routes, India’s geography is not amenable for a hub-spoke system. Even in US, majority of hubs have been dismantled or downsized.

IndiGo founders are certainly aware of these changes, the capabilities of new generation aircraft and so forth.

The NEO bet was not taken for nothing. It is too bad the engine has not lived up to the expectations. At any rate those problems will get fixed and one can easily expect a 3k+ mile range from these aircraft.

Draw a great circle arc from E, W, N and S India and see what falls within this arc.


But on the Indian domestic market they faced rather weak and disorganized carriers. On the international market, especially to Europe, they would go against major players such as Emirates, Qatar, Lufthansa, British Airways... Linking Delhi with London is not the same as linking two provincial towns in India. You can already fly from Europe to India for as little as €350 if you live in a city that is served by flydubai. EK and TK start from €400. So it's not like fares to India are high.
 
avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:02 am

Blerg wrote:
vadodara wrote:
Blerg wrote:
I was curious, what competitive advantage would IndiGo have over its competition on flights to Europe? Let's take Istanbul, why would someone suffer for five, six hours on an LCC with absolutely no service when there is TK with its state of the art onboard product? Same thing with London where fares aren't that high?

What's IndiGo betting on?


Umm, check the size and growth rate of Indian market before IndiGo. Perhaps you need to give them more credit.

Regarding the international routes, India’s geography is not amenable for a hub-spoke system. Even in US, majority of hubs have been dismantled or downsized.

IndiGo founders are certainly aware of these changes, the capabilities of new generation aircraft and so forth.

The NEO bet was not taken for nothing. It is too bad the engine has not lived up to the expectations. At any rate those problems will get fixed and one can easily expect a 3k+ mile range from these aircraft.

Draw a great circle arc from E, W, N and S India and see what falls within this arc.


But on the Indian domestic market they faced rather weak and disorganized carriers. On the international market, especially to Europe, they would go against major players such as Emirates, Qatar, Lufthansa, British Airways... Linking Delhi with London is not the same as linking two provincial towns in India. You can already fly from Europe to India for as little as €350 if you live in a city that is served by flydubai. EK and TK start from €400. So it's not like fares to India are high.


Time will tell if their London strategy works or not. Like also mentioned earlier, they are trying to stimulate a new market of fliers by their lower fares and not going after major airlines traffic. And I doubt any of those major carriers have a cost structure as low as 6E's. Which means 6E can offer lower fares than them and still be profitable.
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:13 am

Blerg wrote:

But on the Indian domestic market they faced rather weak and disorganized carriers. On the international market, especially to Europe, they would go against major players such as Emirates, Qatar, Lufthansa, British Airways... Linking Delhi with London is not the same as linking two provincial towns in India. You can already fly from Europe to India for as little as €350 if you live in a city that is served by flydubai. EK and TK start from €400. So it's not like fares to India are high.

But IndiGo has something that no other carrier has, Indian or international: strong domestic feed. You can fly DEL/BOM - Europe for $500 on TK, But outside of the major cities the options become very, very limited. From CJB, where I often fly out of, the only option for flying to Europe is on 9W and connecting at BOM and AMS/CDG. Those tickets do not come at $500.
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:35 am

Blerg wrote:
I was curious, what competitive advantage would IndiGo have over its competition on flights to Europe? Let's take Istanbul, why would someone suffer for five, six hours on an LCC with absolutely no service when there is TK with its state of the art onboard product? Same thing with London where fares aren't that high?

What's IndiGo betting on?


Betting on extending award-winning in-flight service to long-haul.

Apparently, TK/6E operate from different terminals at DEL/BOM, the transfer will be a breeze compared to TK/AI. Enduring 8 hrs BLR-IST on a cup of noodles, no IFE, not even streaming will be world class. Also, 6E accepts forex only for international BoB. Any poor soul unaware of these facts will go hungry unless co-passengers share food.

Anyway, this whole thing could be filed along with Gatwick and Tbilisi/Baku tech stop news.
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:44 am

IFE or not at least the toilets will be clean for the duration of the flight though, unlike the world class airline that is our national carrier
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:50 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Blerg wrote:
I was curious, what competitive advantage would IndiGo have over its competition on flights to Europe? Let's take Istanbul, why would someone suffer for five, six hours on an LCC with absolutely no service when there is TK with its state of the art onboard product? Same thing with London where fares aren't that high?

What's IndiGo betting on?


Betting on extending award-winning in-flight service to long-haul.

Apparently, TK/6E operate from different terminals at DEL/BOM, the transfer will be a breeze compared to TK/AI. Enduring 8 hrs BLR-IST on a cup of noodles, no IFE, not even streaming will be world class. Also, 6E accepts forex only for international BoB. Any poor soul unaware of these facts will go hungry unless co-passengers share food.

Anyway, this whole thing could be filed along with Gatwick and Tbilisi/Baku tech stop news.


All of that is undeniably true. 6E doesn't operate from the integerated Terminals at neither DEL nor BOM. So not sure of how the strong domestic feed will allow for smooth transfers at those airports. Also as of now 6E operates from three terminals at DEL. So they will have to think of something unless they relying on O&D only.
 
binayak
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:10 pm

unrave wrote:
IFE or not at least the toilets will be clean for the duration of the flight though, unlike the world class airline that is our national carrier


The national carrier toilets were clean most of the time I flew. Well that depends on flight to flight.
I hope IndiGo didn't install the a320neo lavs in the a321neo .
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:18 pm

binayak wrote:
I hope IndiGo didn't install the a320neo lavs in the a321neo .

Well, they have.
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:12 pm

So, Indigo's plan to keep lavs clean is to break the digestive cycle. No food, no excrete, hence clean toilets.

Indian parliamentary panel labeled Indigo as the worst airline in India. Great achievement for Indigo to make 30 politicians from all parties agree on one thing.
https://www.bloombergquint.com/business ... gs.eQwvc3A

Also looking at DGCA's published IRROPS stats every month, 6E's IDB, cancellation, delay numbers, and corresponding compensation payment numbers don't add up. They are alarming. Even Air Asia India treats passengers better.

One has to see how 6E skirts EU261/2004 rules at IST. I am sure they have a plan.
 
EmoticonsAllDay
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:15 pm

sand26391 wrote:
Thai AirAsia has increased freq on the DMK-BLR sector from 5x to DAILY, till 31MAR19.


Daily or Weekly?
 
binayak
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:35 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:

One has to see how 6E skirts EU261/2004 rules at IST. I am sure they have a plan.


A question : Is the compensation for delays valid only if the delay is beyond 3 hours or compensation needs to be given for any kind of delay as per that rule?

Well does closing aircraft door and marking it as on time departure even if the aircraft lies on the tarmac for an hour after that works there? If it works, then IndiGo won't have any problem.
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:14 pm

Blerg wrote:

That I understand but at the same time how long can IndiGo make it work with such low fares? I mean flying medium and long-haul isn't cheap as we've all seen from DY's experience.

Indigo is keeping costs down by:
1. Narrowbody aircraft and a simple fleet.
2. Not pushing the extreme range of the aircraft.

The only break from their normal model is hotels for the crew members. They have differed flying long haul.

6E avoids the lounges, rewards programs, and other expenses. Yes, a bare bones experience.

DY overexpanded with 787s. It costs less, on mid haul to IST, to fly an A321. Per flight and per passenger.

Lightsaber
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:21 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
So, Indigo's plan to keep lavs clean is to break the digestive cycle. No food, no excrete, hence clean toilets.

Indian parliamentary panel labeled Indigo as the worst airline in India. Great achievement for Indigo to make 30 politicians from all parties agree on one thing.
https://www.bloombergquint.com/business ... gs.eQwvc3A

Also looking at DGCA's published IRROPS stats every month, 6E's IDB, cancellation, delay numbers, and corresponding compensation payment numbers don't add up. They are alarming. Even Air Asia India treats passengers better.

One has to see how 6E skirts EU261/2004 rules at IST. I am sure they have a plan.

If Derek O'Brien has his way every passenger will be flown free of cost in first class by Air India paid for by Indian taxpayers. IndiGo should wear being labelled as the worst airline by him as s badge of honour.

EU261/2004 is a EU law. IST is located in Turkey. The EU countries are: Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden and the UK.

I can't seem to find Turkey in the list. Do Amreekans follow a different Wikipedia?
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avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:28 pm

lightsaber wrote:
The only break from their normal model is hotels for the crew members. They have differed flying long haul.

They have that for their entire domestic network too. They have a lot of crew layovers for domestic flights because of their network and scale of ops. And they have tie-ups with the top hotels of the country like Trident, Hyatt, Marriott, etc. So that's nothing new for them.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:47 pm

Turkey has similar flight delay compensation laws
http://web.shgm.gov.tr/doc4/shy-passenger.pdf

The point I am trying to make, even India has flight delay compensation laws which 6E seems to blatantly ignore, why would it change its habits.
Read page 16 from November '18.
http://dgca.nic.in/reports/Traffic-ind.htm

Ignore AI, compare 6E numbers to other carriers.

Cancellations
Spicejet 6268 - Refreshments, Rescheduling, Compensation of Rs. 29.61 lakhs
Indigo 11995 - Refreshments, Rescheduling, Compensation of Rs. 0.32 lakhs

Delay beyond 2 hours
Spicejet 23781 - Refreshments, Transfer to other airlines, Amount spent on facilitation of Rs.63.85 lakhs
Indigo 50243 - Refreshments

Spicejet is not running on Tax Payer handouts.
 
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unrave
Posts: 2584
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:50 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:

Ignore AI, compare 6E numbers to other carriers.

If you are suggesting that 6E is skirting rules or being dishonest, yes, that could very well be true.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
sabby
Posts: 322
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:04 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Blerg wrote:

That I understand but at the same time how long can IndiGo make it work with such low fares? I mean flying medium and long-haul isn't cheap as we've all seen from DY's experience.

Indigo is keeping costs down by:
1. Narrowbody aircraft and a simple fleet.
2. Not pushing the extreme range of the aircraft.

The only break from their normal model is hotels for the crew members. They have differed flying long haul.

6E avoids the lounges, rewards programs, and other expenses. Yes, a bare bones experience.

DY overexpanded with 787s. It costs less, on mid haul to IST, to fly an A321. Per flight and per passenger.

Lightsaber


IST is pretty far from India though, between 2600-3200nm from most of India. For the densely configured A320/1N, that is close to the extremes. And for flights that long (7-9hrs on NB jets), people (especially Indians) expect free F&B not to mention generous luggage considering they would mostly be connecting to NA/EU.

DOH/AUH on the other hand, is much closer - lot less fuel to carry and 4 hours isn't that long so BOB would work.

Long haul LCC would be tricky from India for multiple reasons but it may be doable. EU/NA fares are already affordable to the people who go for vacations and almost all the carriers use widebodies with excellent IFEs and free F&B. If 6E or any other LCC operator wants to launch EU operations using existing domestic model, the fares need to be really really cheap, like 50%+ cheaper which I am not sure even NB jets can deliver, considering they would be flying close to MTOW to carry all those pax at dense config. Another thing, Indians need VISA to travel to EU/NA and that costs between 100-200$. So when you compute the total costs of flight, VISA, hotels and shopping, how much cheaper would it be if flying via LCC and would that be worth foregoing the typical FSC experience ?

In my opinion, for long term success, LCCs can use a hybrid model for mid-haul markets. Keep F&B (maybe with BOB alcoholic drinks), in flight streaming via WiFi and fly NB jets with a little less dense config with a couple rows of extra legroom Y+ seats for more yield. This way, they can still keep operating costs significantly below FSCs but passengers wouldn't miss much while paying let's say 20-25% lesser fare.
 
unnayan
Posts: 94
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:14 pm

It will be interesting to see how Indian Corporates welcome the 6E IST flights.. will they start preferring these over EK/QR/EY options and force employees down the cheapest option? That will be a bit painful :)
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:29 pm

sabby wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Blerg wrote:

That I understand but at the same time how long can IndiGo make it work with such low fares? I mean flying medium and long-haul isn't cheap as we've all seen from DY's experience.

Indigo is keeping costs down by:
1. Narrowbody aircraft and a simple fleet.
2. Not pushing the extreme range of the aircraft.

The only break from their normal model is hotels for the crew members. They have differed flying long haul.

6E avoids the lounges, rewards programs, and other expenses. Yes, a bare bones experience.

DY overexpanded with 787s. It costs less, on mid haul to IST, to fly an A321. Per flight and per passenger.

Lightsaber


IST is pretty far from India though, between 2600-3200nm from most of India. For the densely configured A320/1N, that is close to the extremes. And for flights that long (7-9hrs on NB jets), people (especially Indians) expect free F&B not to mention generous luggage considering they would mostly be connecting to NA/EU.

DOH/AUH on the other hand, is much closer - lot less fuel to carry and 4 hours isn't that long so BOB would work.

Long haul LCC would be tricky from India for multiple reasons but it may be doable. EU/NA fares are already affordable to the people who go for vacations and almost all the carriers use widebodies with excellent IFEs and free F&B. If 6E or any other LCC operator wants to launch EU operations using existing domestic model, the fares need to be really really cheap, like 50%+ cheaper which I am not sure even NB jets can deliver, considering they would be flying close to MTOW to carry all those pax at dense config. Another thing, Indians need VISA to travel to EU/NA and that costs between 100-200$. So when you compute the total costs of flight, VISA, hotels and shopping, how much cheaper would it be if flying via LCC and would that be worth foregoing the typical FSC experience ?

In my opinion, for long term success, LCCs can use a hybrid model for mid-haul markets. Keep F&B (maybe with BOB alcoholic drinks), in flight streaming via WiFi and fly NB jets with a little less dense config with a couple rows of extra legroom Y+ seats for more yield. This way, they can still keep operating costs significantly below FSCs but passengers wouldn't miss much while paying let's say 20-25% lesser fare.

I'll go as far as to state 3200nm is too far.

As to expectations, I've literally read thousands of threads against FR, U2, NK, G4, and 6E and how customers expect more. BYet they vote on price and since ULCCs manage costs well, none as well as 6E, they grow profitably.

All 6E needs to do is add a small number of fat seats prepackaged with a luggage allowance, food and beverage, and they would do well. People make more noise about demands than they shift their spending.

I've rarely fly an ULCC because I like to travel less hectic. But as the full service become ULCC like, that will change. Make the app better and I'll pre-buy the food; it isn't really free, so why not make it a profit center? I fully expect Moxie to show the market how a better app can improve yield. The current apps are after thoughts.

Indigo is barely starting. I fully expect them to expand the market as other ULCCs have.

Indian rights to Turkey are too limited for 6E to over expand. Same with Qatar.

If Indigo needs more range, they can buy higher MTOW A321s now (LR) or the proposed xLR. I personally think they should stick to narrowbody aircraft, but that is just my opinion on the Indian aviation market, highly influenced by the extreme fuel taxes at most Indian airports.

Lightsaber
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unrave
Posts: 2584
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:37 pm

unnayan wrote:
It will be interesting to see how Indian Corporates welcome the 6E IST flights.. will they start preferring these over EK/QR/EY options and force employees down the cheapest option? That will be a bit painful :)

In my experience most Indian companies allow employees to fly FSC on sectors longer than 4-5 hours. Where I work IndiGo is the preferred airline for domestic travel but our overseas travel is usually on SQ/EK and their likes.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
Crazy4Planes
Posts: 95
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:40 pm

 
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unrave
Posts: 2584
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:44 pm

Crazy4Planes wrote:

That article is a blatant ripoff from today's Business Standard
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 684_1.html

LOT's service is just a plan at this stage
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
sabby
Posts: 322
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:19 pm

lightsaber wrote:
sabby wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Indigo is keeping costs down by:
1. Narrowbody aircraft and a simple fleet.
2. Not pushing the extreme range of the aircraft.

The only break from their normal model is hotels for the crew members. They have differed flying long haul.

6E avoids the lounges, rewards programs, and other expenses. Yes, a bare bones experience.

DY overexpanded with 787s. It costs less, on mid haul to IST, to fly an A321. Per flight and per passenger.

Lightsaber


IST is pretty far from India though, between 2600-3200nm from most of India. For the densely configured A320/1N, that is close to the extremes. And for flights that long (7-9hrs on NB jets), people (especially Indians) expect free F&B not to mention generous luggage considering they would mostly be connecting to NA/EU.

DOH/AUH on the other hand, is much closer - lot less fuel to carry and 4 hours isn't that long so BOB would work.

Long haul LCC would be tricky from India for multiple reasons but it may be doable. EU/NA fares are already affordable to the people who go for vacations and almost all the carriers use widebodies with excellent IFEs and free F&B. If 6E or any other LCC operator wants to launch EU operations using existing domestic model, the fares need to be really really cheap, like 50%+ cheaper which I am not sure even NB jets can deliver, considering they would be flying close to MTOW to carry all those pax at dense config. Another thing, Indians need VISA to travel to EU/NA and that costs between 100-200$. So when you compute the total costs of flight, VISA, hotels and shopping, how much cheaper would it be if flying via LCC and would that be worth foregoing the typical FSC experience ?

In my opinion, for long term success, LCCs can use a hybrid model for mid-haul markets. Keep F&B (maybe with BOB alcoholic drinks), in flight streaming via WiFi and fly NB jets with a little less dense config with a couple rows of extra legroom Y+ seats for more yield. This way, they can still keep operating costs significantly below FSCs but passengers wouldn't miss much while paying let's say 20-25% lesser fare.

I'll go as far as to state 3200nm is too far.

As to expectations, I've literally read thousands of threads against FR, U2, NK, G4, and 6E and how customers expect more. BYet they vote on price and since ULCCs manage costs well, none as well as 6E, they grow profitably.

All 6E needs to do is add a small number of fat seats prepackaged with a luggage allowance, food and beverage, and they would do well. People make more noise about demands than they shift their spending.

I've rarely fly an ULCC because I like to travel less hectic. But as the full service become ULCC like, that will change. Make the app better and I'll pre-buy the food; it isn't really free, so why not make it a profit center? I fully expect Moxie to show the market how a better app can improve yield. The current apps are after thoughts.

Indigo is barely starting. I fully expect them to expand the market as other ULCCs have.

Indian rights to Turkey are too limited for 6E to over expand. Same with Qatar.

If Indigo needs more range, they can buy higher MTOW A321s now (LR) or the proposed xLR. I personally think they should stick to narrowbody aircraft, but that is just my opinion on the Indian aviation market, highly influenced by the extreme fuel taxes at most Indian airports.

Lightsaber


I understand your point and agree with most of it but there's two differences -

1. Do any of FR, U2, NK, G4 have regular 7+ hrs scheduled services in NB ? There is a reason even DY is struggling with LCC mid/long haul with their shiny 788/789 packed to gills.
2. And this one is even bigger - Indian pax are used to better services than NA/EU pax. We need to think from their perspective. Their benchmark of service is EK/QR/SQ/EY/AI/9W as opposed to US3 or some of the EU legacies with some of them having basic Y in long hauls (no offense meant though, these carriers rely on the Indian pax for their bread & butter). And Indian pax get that kind of service (free food that is good, excellent IFE and unlimited booze) paying much less than NA/EU customers do. Also, the profile of pax who take EU/NA flight is also important. Domestic sub 100$ RT fares have opened a completely new market in India and propelled to unprecedented growth but those won't be the same people paying 500$+ fares, 100-200$ in VISA fees, spend over a thousand dollars for hotels. transport, food and shopping once/twice per year. EU/NA is way more expensive for the common people in India.
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