Jet airways will launch a second daily DEL LHR from summer using the grounded a330-300 .

binayak wrote:

Jet airways will launch a second daily DEL LHR from summer using the grounded a330-300 .

To keep a check on 6E's London plans I suppose. Also, before it was grounded, wasn't it used for any other route? Or did they have spare capacity. Interesting also to see how they get these extra slots at LHR, mostly from the Skyteam (or Virgin) partners I suppose.

avier wrote:

binayak wrote:

Jet airways will launch a second daily DEL LHR from summer using the grounded a330-300 .

To keep a check on 6E's London plans I suppose. Also, before it was grounded, wasn't it used for any other route? Or did they have spare capacity. Interesting also to see how they get these extra slots at LHR, mostly from the Skyteam (or Virgin) partners I suppose.

I don't think this has to do with 6E because already 9Ws flight has similar departure timings as 6Es would be. The aircraft was earlier used in SIN routes which is now a 737.
Timings of this new 9W 113/114 is similar to the late morning BOM LHR flight which has been successful.. I think they'll upgrade this one to a 77W in a year or so. And about slots, "jugaad" with the help of KLM

9W's flight 974, DEL-IDR went down with the aircraft, 4 weeks ago:
http://avherald.com/h?article=4c27063d&opt=0 & https://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/JAI794

Speaks loads about an airline if they are more comfortable in keeping an aircraft grounded, and cancelling the entire route itself after an incident

Yet another P&W engine failure in one of 6E's A320NEOs.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indigo-kolkata-plane-stalled-mid-air-with-loud-bang-forced-to-return-to-chennai-1973088?amp=1&akamai-rum=off

IMO, Indigo should ground all the A320NEOs with P&W engines and sue them for compensation as multiple aircrafts have experienced engine failures. Their reliability has reduced to an all time low.

6E is getting good compensation from PW, also just a day back a c-suite told they are aiming for 30% more capacity [dumping] in 2019. Grounding or delaying deliveries will not fit their plan. PW has no worries, DGCA/MoCA will be well appraised of the situation by 6E and they will to totally content.

Also, is tap water considered a refreshment in India (or) per DGCA CAR??

avier wrote:

binayak wrote:

Jet airways will launch a second daily DEL LHR from summer using the grounded a330-300 .

To keep a check on 6E's London plans I suppose. Also, before it was grounded, wasn't it used for any other route? Or did they have spare capacity. Interesting also to see how they get these extra slots at LHR, mostly from the Skyteam (or Virgin) partners I suppose.

Larger question is why the aircraft was grounded? Lack of spares? If so, what jugaad done to get this up?

Frankly working with Skyteam seems to be the more sensible thing 9W has done in a long time.

vadodara wrote:

Larger question is why the aircraft was grounded? Lack of spares? If so, what jugaad done to get this up?

Frankly working with Skyteam seems to be the more sensible thing 9W has done in a long time.

The aircraft was temporarily grounded as the airline was undergoing a route rationalization. Of course it's better to deploy these birds in long hauls rather than domestic DEL BOM runs

binayak wrote:

vadodara wrote:

Larger question is why the aircraft was grounded? Lack of spares? If so, what jugaad done to get this up?

Frankly working with Skyteam seems to be the more sensible thing 9W has done in a long time.

The aircraft was temporarily grounded as the airline was undergoing a route rationalization. Of course it's better to deploy these birds in long hauls rather than domestic DEL BOM runs

Well, Jet has deployed widebodies on domestic runs between DEL-BOM and DEL-MAA for quite some time. These were quite successful at the time. But the airline business is dynamic. In the changed scenario, Jet has chosen to redeploy the widebody aircraft on the DEL-LHR route and deploy the 737-800's on domestic runs, which they feel it will fetch better yields and returns. Isnt that a smart business decision? To deploy capacity to maximise yields? Many 737-800's have become "surplus" now with the route rationalization. Its sound business sense to deploy these 737's on extra domestic frequencies while redeploying the A330 from domestic to international routes.

But its become a fashion these days to denigrate the logical decisions of an airline that is facing some temporary cash flow issues!

binayak wrote:

Jet airways will launch a second daily DEL LHR from summer using the grounded a330-300 .

What source are you using for this? I can see Jet have applied for slots for a second daily London Heathrow to Delhi flight but these have not been granted as yet. Can you give more details on this launch of new flight?

SeanM1997 wrote:

binayak wrote:

Jet airways will launch a second daily DEL LHR from summer using the grounded a330-300 .

What source are you using for this? I can see Jet have applied for slots for a second daily London Heathrow to Delhi flight but these have not been granted as yet. Can you give more details on this launch of new flight?

You're right. It's waiting for slot approval. I came to know this from a blog called livefromalounge. However I misread it and thought that slots have been booked.

BawliBooch wrote:

Well, Jet has deployed widebodies on domestic runs between DEL-BOM and DEL-MAA for quite some time. These were quite successful at the time. But the airline business is dynamic. In the changed scenario, Jet has chosen to redeploy the widebody aircraft on the DEL-LHR route and deploy the 737-800's on domestic runs, which they feel it will fetch better yields and returns. Isnt that a smart business decision? To deploy capacity to maximise yields? Many 737-800's have become "surplus" now with the route rationalization. Its sound business sense to deploy these 737's on extra domestic frequencies while redeploying the A330 from domestic to international routes.

But its become a fashion these days to denigrate the logical decisions of an airline that is facing some temporary cash flow issues!

If you see my post history, you'll realize whose side I was throughout.
I know that deploying wide bodies in long hauls specially LHR will be excellent for 9W . They had those wide bodies in domestic with the hope that yields will be better as those a330s are more comfortable. However it has been proved that no one gives 2 hoots abt a better product when it comes to paying for the same. I hope AI realizes this too and deploy WBs in more int'l routes.
For 9W , continue swapping old 737s with 737max and deploy them in more routes out of DEL and BOM. Retire that ATR fleet ASAP because having a separate fleet for routes with barely some revenue is of no use. Better tie up with a regional airline (ex Trujet) and code share with them instead of sending your own aircraft to tier 2/3 city routes.

Binayak wrote:

If you see my post history, you'll realize whose side I was throughout.
I know that deploying wide bodies in long hauls specially LHR will be excellent for 9W . They had those wide bodies in domestic with the hope that yields will be better as those a330s are more comfortable. However it has been proved that no one gives 2 hoots abt a better product when it comes to paying for the same. I hope AI realizes this too and deploy WBs in more int'l routes.

I agree. My post was not aimed at you bro! There may be a case to be made about deploying widebodies in a regional config on domestic routes. Indian Airlines did that for decades with the A300. But deploying a intl configured A330-300 with 300 seats and flat beds in Business class on 2 hour runs does not make sense unless its for purely utilization/scheduling purposes.

Binayak wrote:

For 9W , continue swapping old 737s with 737max and deploy them in more routes out of DEL and BOM. Retire that ATR fleet ASAP because having a separate fleet for routes with barely some revenue is of no use. Better tie up with a regional airline (ex Trujet) and code share with them instead of sending your own aircraft to tier 2/3 city routes.

I think that's the plan going forward. The ATR's are going - already confirmed. The first 11-14 MAX's are going to be one to one replacements for 737NG's giving more operational efficiency. The one disagreement I have is that I dont think the routes will necessarily be out of DEL/BOM only. That market is saturated. Perhaps a case can be made for more point-to-point services and taking on Indigo headon. BLR is one market that is ripe for such a move. Min 2X frequency on key markets like BLR-AMD, BLR-NAG, BLR-LKO, BLR-GAU and so on.

BawliBooch wrote:

That market is saturated. Perhaps a case can be made for more point-to-point services and taking on Indigo headon. BLR is one market that is ripe for such a move. Min 2X frequency on key markets like BLR-AMD, BLR-NAG, BLR-LKO, BLR-GAU and so on.

A year ago I was supporting the fact that jet should continue making BLR its third hub. However now times are different. One airline has grown immensely at BLR and will continue to do so.
Now I'll say, jet should first come out of their financial situation first and then go for BLR. They do have BLR in long term domestic expansion but currently if they start launching new routes, the other blue airline will use their pricing tactics. Jet should be financially stable to face that as no one will stop predatory pricing in India. I can guarantee you that the blue airline must be having multiple dailies in the routes you mentioned.

binayak wrote:

A year ago I was supporting the fact that jet should continue making BLR its third hub. However now times are different. One airline has grown immensely at BLR and will continue to do so.
Now I'll say, jet should first come out of their financial situation first and then go for BLR. They do have BLR in long term domestic expansion but currently if they start launching new routes, the other blue airline will use their pricing tactics. Jet should be financially stable to face that as no one will stop predatory pricing in India. I can guarantee you that the blue airline must be having multiple dailies in the routes you mentioned.

Yes! But the problem is that blue airline (the airline that shall not be named!) will capture the slots in BLR that are vacated so it will be difficult for others to get in later. The DEL/BOM market is saturated and there are relatively better yields to be had outside in markets like BLR. So it might make sound financial sense even in the current context to focus on aggressively developing P2P from Bangalore.

BawliBooch wrote:

binayak wrote:

vadodara wrote:

Larger question is why the aircraft was grounded? Lack of spares? If so, what jugaad done to get this up?

Frankly working with Skyteam seems to be the more sensible thing 9W has done in a long time.

The aircraft was temporarily grounded as the airline was undergoing a route rationalization. Of course it's better to deploy these birds in long hauls rather than domestic DEL BOM runs

But its become a fashion these days to denigrate the logical decisions of an airline that is facing some temporary cash flow issues!

The airline management owes it to their shareholders, employees and customers that they make rational decisions.

If they have made some for a change, power to them. Hopefully they will continue to make some more.

Surely the airline management knows the real reasons for the problems and their responsibility towards its shareholders and customers? Why is it that we assume that we know better about Jet Airways internal dynamics than the airline management?

Here is what we know: 4 months back, Jet Airways management decided to rationalize some of its routes by withdrawing from some markets to focus on others. THAT was enough to set off the chain of speculation, pushed by loaded innuendo on Social media and forums like these on how "Jet is running out of cash"! How much of this speculation was based on fact and how much of it was based on innuendo?

I think Jet Airways management knows their airline better than any of us do. They have access to commercial data that we don't! Not even all knowing PR consultants in Bangalore, Gurgaon, Montreal or Coimbatore know that!

Jet Airways has not gone down in flames as these PR consultants were screaming for 4 months! On the contrary, they have emerged leaner and stronger in the past 4 months! So lets give the airline the benefit of doubt and end all this baseless speculation which is going nowhere! Atleast until we get some real data which comes from real sources and not "unnamed source from within the airline"!

I have photos of grounded aircraft belonging to that "blue airline whose name shall not be mentioned" with missing engines or with a layer of dust covering them. I could just as easily start a thread "Blue airline runs out of cash!" or "Blue airline mothballing aircraft! Doomsday!" and use those photos to begin the chain of speculation that could go for months. Some aviation journalist looking for a story will browse this forum, find the thread and go on fishing expedition leading to even more articles in the media which would provide more material for discussion on this forum. And so on!

Enough people could be scared off from making forward bookings on the airline based on these rumors. This would force the airline to further deep discount making the cash flow situation worse. See how that works?

But ofcourse! I dont have any such agenda. So I will refrain from sleazy innuendo mongering!

But what about the recent news of Jet defaulting on payments? Surely not a good board decision if everything is hunky dory

binayak wrote:

A year ago I was supporting the fact that jet should continue making BLR its third hub. However now times are different. One airline has grown immensely at BLR and will continue to do so.
Now I'll say, jet should first come out of their financial situation first and then go for BLR. They do have BLR in long term domestic expansion but currently if they start launching new routes, the other blue airline will use their pricing tactics. Jet should be financially stable to face that as no one will stop predatory pricing in India. I can guarantee you that the blue airline must be having multiple dailies in the routes you mentioned.

Note that there are three blue airlines—the third one being G8... If you said 'the big bully' rather than 'the other blue airline', there would be no ambiguity.

BawliBooch wrote:

I have photos of grounded aircraft belonging to that "blue airline whose name shall not be mentioned" with missing engines or with a layer of dust covering them. I could just as easily start a thread "Blue airline runs out of cash!" or "Blue airline mothballing aircraft! Doomsday!" and use those photos to begin the chain of speculation that could go for months. Some aviation journalist looking for a story will browse this forum, find the thread and go on fishing expedition leading to even more articles in the media which would provide more material for discussion on this forum. And so on!

The red and orange airline is equally guilty of the above!

BawliBooch wrote:

I have photos of grounded aircraft belonging to that "blue airline whose name shall not be mentioned" with missing engines or with a layer of dust covering them. I could just as easily start a thread "Blue airline runs out of cash!" or "Blue airline mothballing aircraft! Doomsday!" and use those photos to begin the chain of speculation that could go for months. Some aviation journalist looking for a story will browse this forum, find the thread and go on fishing expedition leading to even more articles in the media which would provide more material for discussion on this forum. And so on!

Enough people could be scared off from making forward bookings on the airline based on these rumors. This would force the airline to further deep discount making the cash flow situation worse. See how that works?

But ofcourse! I dont have any such agenda. So I will refrain from sleazy innuendo mongering!

please can you share just one... it will be a visual treat against the big bully

VTCIE wrote:

Note that there are three blue airlines—the third one being G8... If you said 'the big bully' rather than 'the other blue airline', there would be no ambiguity.

I think that's understood for the forum readers on here as to who the other blue airline or big bully airline is, being one and the same. G8 is not even an aggressive or competitive airline with their snail paced growth and not much of network expansion despite having inducted so many NEO's. So they wouldn't be part of any such reference when speaking of anything blue.

BawliBooch wrote:

...Enough people could be scared off from making forward bookings on the airline based on these rumors. This would force the airline to further deep discount making the cash flow situation worse. See how that works?

...

There is no evidence of owners, employees, lessors, vendors, travel agents, code-share partners and passengers ditching 9W.

Sure 9W cut its network, but revenue didn't go down. AI was able to cut network, lose market share yet increase revenue same time, I am sure Team Dube is more capable than AI in network and revenue management. It would have been a different story if this was old 9W run by NG.

In other news, AI seems to be on a hiring spree.

BLR on 05/01/19 handled 102,906 pax, 723 Air Traffic Movements (357DEP + 366ARR).

I thought we were discussing Indian Aviation

*Delete post*

.

Oops, now seems like the GoI is considering asking airlines to defer any NEO deliveries till the engine issues are sorted. Wonder how the fast growing airlines or rather only airline would react to this.

https://m.businesstoday.in/story/domestic-carriers-may-take-a-beating-with-govt-mulling-a-crackdown-on-airbus-a320neo-planes/1/307962.html

Reading about these engine issues like everyday, I had such a bad dream last night, it was really a nightmare. I hope this issue gets resolved soon.

Maybe a bit of repetitive news on 6E's int'l plans, but recent ones suggest a few more stations the airline is considering for it's int'l network;
Is looking at Birmingham and London Stansted and Gatwick as the options.
Guangzhou and Kunming in China and Moscow are also on the LCCs radar .

Moscow? I wasn't under the impression demand is that large. I wonder what airport they would go for.

Blerg wrote:

Moscow? I wasn't under the impression demand is that large. I wonder what airport they would go for.

Given that SU flies twice daily to DEL and Ural Airlines will start a flight to BOM, potential seems to be high.

avier wrote:

Maybe a bit of repetitive news on 6E's int'l plans, but recent ones suggest a few more stations the airline is considering for it's int'l network;
Is looking at Birmingham and London Stansted and Gatwick as the options.
Guangzhou and Kunming in China and Moscow are also on the LCCs radar .

Birmingham won't work for 6E . The tourist traffic (basically what 6E is betting on) is very few for parts of UK other than London. In fact whoever visits UK from India starts his/her tour from London generally. The Indian VFR won't take 6E for sure. Indigo can better leave this destination to TK.

sand26391 wrote:

BLR on 05/01/19 handled 102,906 pax, 723 Air Traffic Movements (357DEP + 366ARR).

Expect this growth to remain strong. The BBC, in its article today on cities driving the world economy, is reporting that, according to Oxford Economics, Bangalore will be economically the fastest growing city in the world in 2019.

“In meaningful terms it’s Bangalore in India, which is likely to see the strongest growth. We forecast GDP growth of 10.5% for Bangalore in 2019, even after adjusting for inflation,” says Richard Holt, the head of Global Cities Research with Oxford Economics.”

http://www.bbc.com/capital/gallery/2019 ... ch-in-2019

DSFTEBMNZ wrote:

[ according to Oxford Economics

You lost me after this. They will say anything given enough money. Read their analysis of EK and DXB. Didn't happen exactly the way they stated.

Bangalore will grow at a faster rate, no doubt about it. They just don't need these PR antics.

dtw2hyd wrote:

DSFTEBMNZ wrote:

[ according to Oxford Economics

You lost me after this. They will say anything given enough money.

The same article

http://www.bbc.com/capital/gallery/2019 ... ch-in-2019

Also quotes the Brookings Institution in the US and that puts Bangalore at Number 46 among 300 world cities behind such Indian cities as Delhi, Hyderabad, Surat and Mumbai, but the Brookings article measures historical progress between 2014 and 2016 as reported in 2018. I guess you should take any predictions with the proverbial pinch of salt.

The slots at BLR are already filling up with round after round of expansion from 6E. Don't know if this healthy but it is certainly deterring other airlines from starting from BLR. Except for Spicejet and that too only in some routes, no other airline is challenging 6E. BLR is the fastest growing city in India and we don't need any detailed study for that.

binayak wrote:

Blerg wrote:

Moscow? I wasn't under the impression demand is that large. I wonder what airport they would go for.

Given that SU flies twice daily to DEL and Ural Airlines will start a flight to BOM, potential seems to be high.

avier wrote:

Maybe a bit of repetitive news on 6E's int'l plans, but recent ones suggest a few more stations the airline is considering for it's int'l network;
Is looking at Birmingham and London Stansted and Gatwick as the options.
Guangzhou and Kunming in China and Moscow are also on the LCCs radar .

Birmingham won't work for 6E . The tourist traffic (basically what 6E is betting on) is very few for parts of UK other than London. In fact whoever visits UK from India starts his/her tour from London generally. The Indian VFR won't take 6E for sure. Indigo can better leave this destination to TK.

I could see 3X DEL-BHX and 3X MAN-DEL. UK non-Indian travelers could be the main source plus VFR that needs to go to smaller Indian cities that 6E can reach (assuming they time the flights right). Look at how low cost flights have boosted tourism with UK source traffic. India is ripe for that because once you get to India you can also have a cheap vacation. But then again these would all be one stops which make them a bit of a joke

binayak wrote:

Blerg wrote:

Moscow? I wasn't under the impression demand is that large. I wonder what airport they would go for.

Given that SU flies twice daily to DEL and Ural Airlines will start a flight to BOM, potential seems to be high.

SVO? SU flies SVO-DEL. And Ural is planning service from DME. So may be a BOM-SVO to get coverage to both Moscow airports from BOM? Does anyone know advantage of flying to one or the other.
AI used to fly DEL-DME using the 788 for a while but maybe it was too much plane even at 4 x weekly.

Well, it would be great know what SU passenger structure is in DEL, as in how many are point to point and how many are connecting onwards.

AI will allow Y class passengers to bid for a J class upgrade at the gate. I know CX allows Y class passengers to bid on upgrades to Y+/J. Perhaps people familiar with airline revenue management would be able to tell the rest of us whether such upgrade bidding processes help improve RPKs.

So now 2 airlines in India are allowing pax to bid for higher class.

Air India starts using food stocked from India on its return international flights
..the airline has started carrying food from India for use during the journey back to the country, in an attempt to rationalise catering costs on international flights.

The loss-making airline has already started using food items stocked from India during its onward journey to Stockholm, Copenhagen, Birmingham and Madrid, and use them when returning. It has said food items purchased from these foreign cities are much more expensive when compared to Indian cities.

"The food is taken from here in India in chillers and then it is heated whenever it has to be used... Catering costs for us are around Rs 600 crore to Rs 800 crore a year. Catering in India is 3-4 times cheaper as compared to catering in the West," Kharola said.

https://wap.business-standard.com/article/pti-stories/air-india-starts-using-food-stocked-from-india-on-its-return-international-flights-119010900462_1.html

Sounds like a reasonable measure, though wonder how the quality of meals may be impacted by such a move. Also the whole process of having it heated by the crew from chillers.

The idea looks good on paper but not sure will work on 9+ hour missions. It will work perfectly up to 4-hour regional turn around missions. Is there enough galley space on 788 to stock for a round trip? What about IRROPS? Who will cater if onboard food goes bad? They may just stock non-perishables and cater hot meals at the remote station, not sure it saves enough.

On the other hand, they should top off fuel inbound to save taxes in India.

I won't be surprised if after a few months I hear people complaining about Stale food or Cold food on Air India

Air India's sale plan stays on :
Govt eyes about $1 billion from Air India sale
https://m.economictimes.com/industry/transportation/airlines-/-aviation/govt-eyes-about-1-bn-from-air-india-sale/articleshow/67453691.cms

CAAC unveils slots allocation/airline distribution for Beijing’s upcoming PEK/ZBAD dual-hub system
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1412139

Seeing the above thread on how the Aviation authority of China plans to split airlines between the upcoming new Beijing Daxing airport and the older Beijing Capital Airport and makes it seem pretty fair, it struck me if such a system should or will be used when the new Navi Mumbai airport opens up. If not , airlines will have dual flights at both the old and new Mumbai airports. But knowing a certain airline with a large aircraft order, would throw capacity as fast as possible at the new airport if allowed to operate from both the city airports, and try to dominate and "own" the new airport through capacity and price dumping (like it does at BLR). And such could also be the case at the upcoming new Delhi airport at Jewar which will serve as the second airport for NCR. So wouldn't it be fair if India's Civil Aviation authority or AAI or whoever is responsible in deciding how airlines can operate with a dual airport system in a city, follow the CAAC method and ask airlines to pick one only. (?) Or themselves decide and split the airlines as it deems fit. Rather than giving airlines the choice where they can operate from. This would also free up space at CSIA in future and allow the main airline having it's hub there (subject to if it survives) to expand further.

avier wrote:

CAAC unveils slots allocation/airline distribution for Beijing’s upcoming PEK/ZBAD dual-hub system
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1412139

Seeing the above thread on how the Aviation authority of China plans to split airlines between the upcoming new Beijing Daxing airport and the older Beijing Capital Airport and makes it seem pretty fair, it struck me if such a system should or will be used when the new Navi Mumbai airport opens up. If not , airlines will have dual flights at both the old and new Mumbai airports. But knowing a certain airline with a large aircraft order, would throw capacity as fast as possible at the new airport if allowed to operate from both the city airports, and try to dominate and "own" the new airport through capacity and price dumping (like it does at BLR). And such could also be the case at the upcoming new Delhi airport at Jewar which will serve as the second airport for NCR. So wouldn't it be fair if India's Civil Aviation authority or AAI or whoever is responsible in deciding how airlines can operate with a dual airport system in a city, follow the CAAC method and ask airlines to pick one only. (?) Or themselves decide and split the airlines as it deems fit. Rather than giving airlines the choice where they can operate from. This would also free up space at CSIA in future and allow the main airline having it's hub there (subject to if it survives) to expand further.

The blue big bully is not very popular around here

unnayan wrote:

avier wrote:

CAAC unveils slots allocation/airline distribution for Beijing’s upcoming PEK/ZBAD dual-hub system
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1412139

Seeing the above thread on how the Aviation authority of China plans to split airlines between the upcoming new Beijing Daxing airport and the older Beijing Capital Airport and makes it seem pretty fair, it struck me if such a system should or will be used when the new Navi Mumbai airport opens up. If not , airlines will have dual flights at both the old and new Mumbai airports. But knowing a certain airline with a large aircraft order, would throw capacity as fast as possible at the new airport if allowed to operate from both the city airports, and try to dominate and "own" the new airport through capacity and price dumping (like it does at BLR). And such could also be the case at the upcoming new Delhi airport at Jewar which will serve as the second airport for NCR. So wouldn't it be fair if India's Civil Aviation authority or AAI or whoever is responsible in deciding how airlines can operate with a dual airport system in a city, follow the CAAC method and ask airlines to pick one only. (?) Or themselves decide and split the airlines as it deems fit. Rather than giving airlines the choice where they can operate from. This would also free up space at CSIA in future and allow the main airline having it's hub there (subject to if it survives) to expand further.

The blue big bully is not very popular around here

They are the second largest airline out of the city, no metric shows they aren't popular if it weren't for the airport being slot constrained.