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JOYA380B747
Posts: 787
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:31 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:32 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
What BOM really needs is clearing of the slums to create a parallel runway.


That's something the Govt will realise probably in 2025 or later after few years of 'spiritless' Navi Mumbai airport operations, when they will be faced with the bottom line that people of Mumbai will only settle for a BOM expansion and nothing else. Till then no party will ever dare to touch the slums. That ultimatum is about a decade away.
India's biggest loss w.r.t global aviation (so far) - Being an Australasia-Europe stopover.
 
binayak
Posts: 986
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:00 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:18 pm

JOYA380B747 wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
What BOM really needs is clearing of the slums to create a parallel runway.


That's something the Govt will realise probably in 2025 or later after few years of 'spiritless' Navi Mumbai airport operations, when they will be faced with the bottom line that people of Mumbai will only settle for a BOM expansion and nothing else. Till then no party will ever dare to touch the slums. That ultimatum is about a decade away.


2025? I think that'll happen in my next birth !!
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
avier
Posts: 963
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:44 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:

The saddest part is that very few new domestic cities will be added from BOM. DEL & BOM are no brainers for wanting / needing connections to most medium to large cities in India. Only good news is that airlines can up gauge to bigger planes. So growth can happen. final upside is maybe fares go up a bit. India needs some profitable routes. If BOM becomes India's LGA or LHR, then so be it. BOM people can afford a bit higher fares. While New Bombay will help, I can't imagine anyone from the western suburbs ever going to the new airport. What BOM really needs is clearing of the slums to create a parallel runway.


That is true. The western suburbs and the ones more up north will probably avoid it. I can't imagine all the celebs here in Juhu thinking of travelling to Navi Mumbai to catch a flight. So FSC's shouldn't think of the new airport. The traffic in the city is already chock a block. Travelling within the city can take an hour or two at times. So travelling outside the city limits would be something most would want to avoid.

NMIA will get it's catchment area from Southern part of Mumbai (through Trans Harbour Link) and other areas like Kalyan-Dombivili, etc. And maybe some from outskirts of Pune- from where it would take just an hour and a half to reach NMIA.

Regarding parallel runway at CSIA, 9W's & AI's main hangars lie in that path along with general aviation. So if that can be shifted they can think of such a plan after removing slum settlements- something which might never happen.

Living right besides Juhu Aerodrome all my life, I always felt its an amazing property to be made good use of for commercial purpose. Unfortunately they can't seem to make that happen too.
 
VTORD
Posts: 640
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:46 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
While New Bombay will help, I can't imagine anyone from the western suburbs ever going to the new airport. What BOM really needs is clearing of the slums to create a parallel runway.


Why? People in the western suburbs have the options of going to Navi Mumbai through quite a few connectors. There are regular buses from Borivali to Vashi/Nerul etc., A airport commuter bus like the one in HYD, cold very well address that problem. If anything the challenge will be anything south of Mahim-Matunga. But I suspect Dadar and beyond could just use the Easter Express Highway.
 
avier
Posts: 963
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:32 pm

VTORD wrote:
If anything the challenge will be anything south of Mahim-Matunga. But I suspect Dadar and beyond could just use the Easter Express Highway.


That's exactly what the trans harbor link is coming up for.


VTORD wrote:
Why? People in the western suburbs have the options of going to Navi Mumbai through quite a few connectors. There are regular buses from Borivali to Vashi/Nerul etc.,


Borivali to Navi Mumbai that too on the city bus? That would be a nightmare. Most in city prefer taxi's (private ones mostly) as public transport use for travel to airport. Other than that their private vehicles of course.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7706
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:13 pm

Hypothecal question on rehabilitation of slums around Mumbai airport.

How many skyscrapers it would take to house million slum dwellers? How much it would cost. Is it even possible in the near vicinity?
I am guessing they don't want to move far away because of their job location.
 
binayak
Posts: 986
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:00 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:19 pm

VTORD wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
While New Bombay will help, I can't imagine anyone from the western suburbs ever going to the new airport. What BOM really needs is clearing of the slums to create a parallel runway.


Why? People in the western suburbs have the options of going to Navi Mumbai through quite a few connectors. There are regular buses from Borivali to Vashi/Nerul etc., A airport commuter bus like the one in HYD, cold very well address that problem. If anything the challenge will be anything south of Mahim-Matunga. But I suspect Dadar and beyond could just use the Easter Express Highway.


Currently in Mumbai , office--home is a long drive man!
That NMMT bus from Borivali to Kharghar takes 3+ hours in normal traffic . !!
Bottom line no one from Western suburbs will use NMIA . For us CSIA will forever remain the airport we use .
Navi Mumbai is in itself a developing one with multiple projects coming in the Panvel region . Thus in future the area will have enough pax to sustain NMIA ops . Add some premium traffic from South Bombay . Finally I hope the aims of a satellite town near Mumbai comes true.
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2475
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:19 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:

6E DEL-IST may be outside of codeshare agreement. .

This makes absolutely no sense, unfortunately. This is like saying you ac go to the candy store and being told you can buy anything except the candy
 
chinmay17shetye
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:24 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:48 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
chinmay17shetye wrote:
unrave wrote:
Yes, it has been the case for a few years now. Expect to see growth once Navi Mumbai airport opens


So the richest city in India will be aviation dead for the next 3 years. How disappointing.


The saddest part is that very few new domestic cities will be added from BOM. DEL & BOM are no brainers for wanting / needing connections to most medium to large cities in India. Only good news is that airlines can up gauge to bigger planes. So growth can happen. final upside is maybe fares go up a bit. India needs some profitable routes. If BOM becomes India's LGA or LHR, then so be it. BOM people can afford a bit higher fares. While New Bombay will help, I can't imagine anyone from the western suburbs ever going to the new airport. What BOM really needs is clearing of the slums to create a parallel runway.


Hypothetically if BOM had a lot of slots, every city in India would have schedules to BOM. It could fill seats on almost all domestic routes but there is no infrastructure. I really find the future of aviation in Mumbai spooky.

I agree with the western suburbs point. The airport is at a very convenient location atm. I hope some new dedicated routes come up because the current travel time of 1.5 hours can be a deal breaker for a lot of people. Mumbai is not used to the concept of an airport being outside the city.

Also, a parallel runway is not realistic. Clearing the Vakola slums is a task in itself but even if you manage that, you will need to demolish the AI maintenance facilities, AI offices, the general aviation terminal and a lot of hangars too.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:52 pm

There are thousands of flights across the world to partner destinations without code-shares.

Has TK transferred any pax to 6E at DEL or BOM since the agreement? Probably No. Also, they operate from different terminals.

Pax booked on TK will have access to all TK destinations at IST and pax booked on 6E will have access to 6E flights at DEL.

Also, any code-share has to be approved by DGCA(India) and CAA(Turkey). Takes time.
 
chinmay17shetye
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:24 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:06 pm

VTORD wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
While New Bombay will help, I can't imagine anyone from the western suburbs ever going to the new airport. What BOM really needs is clearing of the slums to create a parallel runway.


Why? People in the western suburbs have the options of going to Navi Mumbai through quite a few connectors. There are regular buses from Borivali to Vashi/Nerul etc., A airport commuter bus like the one in HYD, cold very well address that problem. If anything the challenge will be anything south of Mahim-Matunga. But I suspect Dadar and beyond could just use the Easter Express Highway.


Here's a scenario for you. You live in the western suburbs and you are planning a vacation to Goa. You plan to check-in at noon at a resort in Calangute/Baga.

To make it at 12, you need to be out of GOI at 11am.
Your flight should be landing at 10:30am which means it departed from BOM at 9:30am (or earlier).
You plan to reach 1.5 or realistically 2 hours before the flight time as you can't trust Mumbai traffic. Lets consider 1.5 which means you need to be at NMIA at 8am.
To reach NMIA at 8am you have to leave your house 2 hours prior - to deal with the morning rush hour on the western express highway i.e. 6am.

I have taken conservative estimates and still the total travel time I see is 6 hours. For a flight time of 40 minutes you spend 6 hours travelling. Agreed a lot of the time components are common with BOM too but what I want to highlight here is that having NMIA as your airport will easily take up 2-3 additional hours. Add some more if you really are considering the bus.
 
VTORD
Posts: 640
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:18 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Hypothecal question on rehabilitation of slums around Mumbai airport.

How many skyscrapers it would take to house million slum dwellers? How much it would cost. Is it even possible in the near vicinity?
I am guessing they don't want to move far away because of their job location.


Assuming 1,000,000 people at an average family size of 4 is 250,000 units / flats
At 4 flats per floor, you are looking at more than 800 buildings assuming a height of 75 floors per skyscraper.
IF my math isn't bonkers, the developers would never be able to recover their investment. Forget everything else.
 
VTORD
Posts: 640
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:28 pm

^^@chinmay17shetye, binayak and avier,
I'll admit, haven't been to BOM in a while so don't know how the traffic has deteriorated but i was under the impression that there are connectors like the one through BKC that bypasses WEH and exits out at Mankhurd. Isn't there also Goregaon/Jogeshwari - Airoli link road?

Just to be clear, I am talking about a bus service dedicated from specific points in the city to the airport at a certain (30 minute) schedule like the one they have/had in HYD (not sure if it's still around)
 
chinmay17shetye
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:24 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:28 pm

VTORD wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Hypothecal question on rehabilitation of slums around Mumbai airport.

How many skyscrapers it would take to house million slum dwellers? How much it would cost. Is it even possible in the near vicinity?
I am guessing they don't want to move far away because of their job location.


Assuming 1,000,000 people at an average family size of 4 is 250,000 units / flats
At 4 flats per floor, you are looking at more than 800 buildings assuming a height of 75 floors per skyscraper.
IF my math isn't bonkers, the developers would never be able to recover their investment. Forget everything else.


Come on man. A million people don't live in an area that is 0.25-0.3 sq.km. in size. You don't need to clear all the slums in Mumbai for the second runway. Just the vakola slums will do.

No offence but every part of your math is factually incorrect.
 
VTORD
Posts: 640
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:32 pm

chinmay17shetye wrote:
VTORD wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Hypothecal question on rehabilitation of slums around Mumbai airport.

How many skyscrapers it would take to house million slum dwellers? How much it would cost. Is it even possible in the near vicinity?
I am guessing they don't want to move far away because of their job location.


Assuming 1,000,000 people at an average family size of 4 is 250,000 units / flats
At 4 flats per floor, you are looking at more than 800 buildings assuming a height of 75 floors per skyscraper.
IF my math isn't bonkers, the developers would never be able to recover their investment. Forget everything else.


Come on man. A million people don't live in an area that is 0.25-0.3 sq.km. in size. You don't need to clear all the slums in Mumbai for the second runway. Just the vakola slums will do.

No offence but every part of your math is factually incorrect.


Agreed. The original question was for a million people. So that's what I did. Use the same logic for a more accurate population number.
 
chinmay17shetye
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:24 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:34 pm

VTORD wrote:
^^@chinmay17shetye, binayak and avier,
I'll admit, haven't been to BOM in a while so don't know how the traffic has deteriorated but i was under the impression that there are connectors like the one through BKC that bypasses WEH and exits out at Mankhurd. Isn't there also Goregaon/Jogeshwari - Airoli link road?

Just to be clear, I am talking about a bus service dedicated from specific points in the city to the airport at a certain (30 minute) schedule like the one they have/had in HYD (not sure if it's still around)


What you are saying might work for other airports but travelling in Mumbai is never about distance. Travelling in Mumbai is always based on time. Funnily enough even BOM uses time based aircraft separation (like LHR) and not distance based.

Travel times in a bus can be 3 hours during peak times and trust me on this, it is not an exaggeration.
 
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unrave
Posts: 2682
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:24 pm

When the bullet train starts running western suburb folks will find it easier to fly out of AMD than NMIA
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7706
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:25 pm

VTORD wrote:
...
Agreed. The original question was for a million people. So that's what I did. Use the same logic for a more accurate population number.

My bad, I thought it was a million.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1165
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:23 am

avier wrote:
VTORD wrote:
If anything the challenge will be anything south of Mahim-Matunga. But I suspect Dadar and beyond could just use the Easter Express Highway.


That's exactly what the trans harbor link is coming up for.


VTORD wrote:
Why? People in the western suburbs have the options of going to Navi Mumbai through quite a few connectors. There are regular buses from Borivali to Vashi/Nerul etc.,


Borivali to Navi Mumbai that too on the city bus? That would be a nightmare. Most in city prefer taxi's (private ones mostly) as public transport use for travel to airport. Other than that their private vehicles of course.


Agreed these people are not taking a bus. That said, I think people misinterpreted my last post. So what if the Western Suburbs won’t go to NMIA. There will be enough people to use that airport for domestic flights, ME and SEA flights for sure. Mostly LCC with a few FSC flights to important cities. My point was there will still be a lot of pressure to expand BOM because the most affluent parts of the city are just too dam close to BOM (not to mention the new CBD - BKC).
 
anshabhi
Posts: 2185
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:40 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:28 am

Did anyone notice that 6E's & TK's IST-DEL will depart from IST and arrive at DEL at exact same time.

Also right now TK one way non stop fare is 35k+, while 6E's fare is <19k. Though I think it's promotional
 
VTCIE
Posts: 391
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:10 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:51 am

In light of all the discussions about where land should be acquired for BOM, and how people living in different parts of the city can get to BOM Airport using various means of transportation, should there be a separate BOM+NMIA construction and discussion thread?
In grieving remembrance of the thousands of people who lost their lives on ET-AVJ, PK-LQP, XA-UHZ, S2-AGU, CP-2933, SU-GCC, EI-ETJ, D-AIPX, PK-AXC, 9M-MRD, VT-AXV and above all 9M-MRO, besides many more. Your deaths are not in vain. Safety first, always.
 
binayak
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:55 am

VTCIE wrote:
In light of all the discussions about where land should be acquired for BOM, and how people living in different parts of the city can get to BOM Airport using various means of transportation, should there be a separate BOM+NMIA construction and discussion thread?


Not now . We can discuss this in Indian airports thread .
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
Blerg
Posts: 3103
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:50 am

anshabhi wrote:
Did anyone notice that 6E's & TK's IST-DEL will depart from IST and arrive at DEL at exact same time.

Also right now TK one way non stop fare is 35k+, while 6E's fare is <19k. Though I think it's promotional


TK needed that 6E arrival into IST as it connects perfectly to the evening wave of departures. Between 19.00 and 20.00 there are a lot of regional flights, especially to the Balkans, there are also some Middle Eastern flights such as Cairo for example. From 20.00 there are a lot of European flights to places such as London, Milan, Stuttgart...

As for the return flight, it could be that TK is already fully booked so 6E is providing extra capacity. By the way. wouldn't TK and 6E departing at the same time offer more or less same capacity as an A380?
 
avier
Posts: 963
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:56 am

More down the drain for the crap undeserving airline.

Government to release Rs 1,500 crore to Air India next week, says official

https://m.economictimes.com/industry/transportation/airlines-/-aviation/government-to-release-rs-1500-crore-to-air-india-next-week-says-official/articleshow/67693872.cms
 
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Slash787
Posts: 950
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:50 am

Rs. 1,500 crore to Air India? I have no words to say........
 
avier
Posts: 963
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:02 am

That amount would have been a reasonable amount to keep 9W afloat for the short term. And they struggling to get even that from anywhere.

For AI however, it's like their weekly rent they receive from the Govt.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2475
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:51 pm

anshabhi wrote:
Did anyone notice that 6E's & TK's IST-DEL will depart from IST and arrive at DEL at exact same time.

Also right now TK one way non stop fare is 35k+, while 6E's fare is <19k. Though I think it's promotional


Interesting and thanks for sharing!
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2475
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:54 pm

Blerg wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
Did anyone notice that 6E's & TK's IST-DEL will depart from IST and arrive at DEL at exact same time.

Also right now TK one way non stop fare is 35k+, while 6E's fare is <19k. Though I think it's promotional


TK needed that 6E arrival into IST as it connects perfectly to the evening wave of departures. Between 19.00 and 20.00 there are a lot of regional flights, especially to the Balkans, there are also some Middle Eastern flights such as Cairo for example. From 20.00 there are a lot of European flights to places such as London, Milan, Stuttgart...

As for the return flight, it could be that TK is already fully booked so 6E is providing extra capacity. By the way. wouldn't TK and 6E departing at the same time offer more or less same capacity as an A380?


If Turkish is limited by frequency to India, why couldn't it upgrade its two daily 777 flights to India via a dry or wet lease for an Airbus A380? Those leases must be really relatively cheap now.
 
Blerg
Posts: 3103
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:13 pm

edealinfo wrote:
Blerg wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
Did anyone notice that 6E's & TK's IST-DEL will depart from IST and arrive at DEL at exact same time.

Also right now TK one way non stop fare is 35k+, while 6E's fare is <19k. Though I think it's promotional


TK needed that 6E arrival into IST as it connects perfectly to the evening wave of departures. Between 19.00 and 20.00 there are a lot of regional flights, especially to the Balkans, there are also some Middle Eastern flights such as Cairo for example. From 20.00 there are a lot of European flights to places such as London, Milan, Stuttgart...

As for the return flight, it could be that TK is already fully booked so 6E is providing extra capacity. By the way. wouldn't TK and 6E departing at the same time offer more or less same capacity as an A380?


If Turkish is limited by frequency to India, why couldn't it upgrade its two daily 777 flights to India via a dry or wet lease for an Airbus A380? Those leases must be really relatively cheap now.


I think IST can't handle it, if I am not mistaken the taxiways are too narrow. Then again, I wonder if it would be commercially viable to lease just a few of them for two routes where yields might not be as great.
 
vadodara
Posts: 1102
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:28 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
The saddest part is that very few new domestic cities will be added from BOM. DEL & BOM are no brainers for wanting / needing connections to most medium to large cities in India. Only good news is that airlines can up gauge to bigger planes. So growth can happen. final upside is maybe fares go up a bit. India needs some profitable routes. If BOM becomes India's LGA or LHR, then so be it. BOM people can afford a bit higher fares. While New Bombay will help, I can't imagine anyone from the western suburbs ever going to the new airport. What BOM really needs is clearing of the slums to create a parallel runway.


Actually, there are more chances that BOM looses some routes in the near future. With railway's gradually improving their speed, at some point lot of air traffic may shift there. In turn, this will open-up slots for longer routes.

Either way, NMIA may turn out to be a 'dim-wit' idea.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1165
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:12 am

vadodara wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
The saddest part is that very few new domestic cities will be added from BOM. DEL & BOM are no brainers for wanting / needing connections to most medium to large cities in India. Only good news is that airlines can up gauge to bigger planes. So growth can happen. final upside is maybe fares go up a bit. India needs some profitable routes. If BOM becomes India's LGA or LHR, then so be it. BOM people can afford a bit higher fares. While New Bombay will help, I can't imagine anyone from the western suburbs ever going to the new airport. What BOM really needs is clearing of the slums to create a parallel runway.


Actually, there are more chances that BOM looses some routes in the near future. With railway's gradually improving their speed, at some point lot of air traffic may shift there. In turn, this will open-up slots for longer routes.

Either way, NMIA may turn out to be a 'dim-wit' idea.


Sorry I disagree. Even with railways and another runway at BOM, the metro area would still need New Bombay’s airport. Plus New Bombay is really its own city. It is far away. I am curious why you think it is a “dim-wit” idea. That’s a very strong statement so would love your thoughts.
 
edealinfo
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Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:44 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
vadodara wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
I am curious why you think it is a “dim-wit” idea. That’s a very strong statement so would love your thoughts.


If you are raised in India, you would be in an environment (news channels, etc) that is filled with over-statement, exaggeration, etc., in order to emphasize a point. Read this thread (prior posts) on how "miraculous escape" and other phrases, etc., are used left, right, and center even though they may be misplaced.

This is normal Indian talk; don't read too much into it.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2475
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:06 am

edealinfo wrote:
behramjee wrote:
6E should just stick to operating to cities within a 6.5 hour flying time radius of India using an A321Neo.


So, which of the following cities would fall into the bracket of "within 6.5 hours" of actual flying time?
Chennai, Kolkata, Ahmedabad, Hyderabad, Amritsar, Mumbai and Bengaluru


The distances (in nautical miles) for the cities in consideration to Istanbul are as follows:

Amritsar: 2,600 miles

New Delhi: 2,800 miles

Ahmedabad: 2,800 miles

Bombay: 3,000 miles

Hyderabad: 3,500 miles

Bangalore: 3,600 miles

Madras: 3,650 miles

So the question is which of these cities are within the range of an Airbus A321 with a full load of 221 passengers
 
snehnath
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:26 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:35 am

The current connectors from the Western Suburbs to the proposed NMIA are the following:

a. From Kandivali, Borivali, Dahisar and further northwards: Ghodbunder Road to Thane and then the Thane-Belapur Road all the way down to NMIA
b. From Malad to Jogeshwari: Jogeshwari Vikhroli Link Road (JVLR) to Eastern Express Highway at Kanjurmarg and then via Airoli Bridge to Thane Belapur Road all the way down to NMIA
c. CSIA via Saki Naka, Ghatkopar, Ghatkopar-Mankhurd Link Road to Sion Panvel Road, Palm Beach Marg, Belapur, NMA
d. CSIA via Western Express Highway, Santa Cruz Chembur Link Road (SCLR), Ghatkopar Mankhurd Link Road to Sion Panvel Road, Palm Beach Marg, Belapur, NMIA
e. Bandra to Kalina via BKC and joining the SCLR and then further on
f. Bandra to Sion and then along the Sion Panvel Highway/Palm Beach Marg, Belapur to NMIA

In all the above cases, the flight time from BOM to any place in India would be longer that the road trip to get to NMIA with the flyover constructions/Metro work underway.

However as another poster has mentioned, NMIA will be attractive to all of Navi Mumbai (pop 1.2 million), Thane (pop 1.9 million) and the Kalyan-Dombivali belt (pop 1.3 million). A lot of Navi Mumbai and Thane residents can be called mass affluent and already are frequent air travelers.



VTORD wrote:
^^@chinmay17shetye, binayak and avier,
I'll admit, haven't been to BOM in a while so don't know how the traffic has deteriorated but i was under the impression that there are connectors like the one through BKC that bypasses WEH and exits out at Mankhurd. Isn't there also Goregaon/Jogeshwari - Airoli link road?

Just to be clear, I am talking about a bus service dedicated from specific points in the city to the airport at a certain (30 minute) schedule like the one they have/had in HYD (not sure if it's still around)
 
avier
Posts: 963
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:09 am

snehnath wrote:

In all the above cases, the flight time from BOM to any place in India would be longer that the road trip to get to NMIA with the flyover constructions/Metro work underway.



You probably meant the other way round, i.e ; the road trip time to get to NMIA from the western suburbs would be longer than a domestic flight (duration) from BOM (CSIA) to anywhere in the country.
 
avier
Posts: 963
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:19 am

NMIA will become attractive only once the upcoming Trans Harbour Link is up and open and connects directly to the oldest and most affluent part of Mumbai - South Mumbai. Till then their catchment area will be restricted to the nearby townships of Navi Mumbai, etc.
The main question remains as to which airline will want to operate out of the new airport, which could be a risky bet at the start.
 
sand26391
Posts: 608
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:47 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:45 am

Bengaluru-Kanpur flights from FEB 20th

https://m.jagran.com/uttar-pradesh/kanp ... 93287.html
 
anshabhi
Posts: 2185
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:40 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:59 am

sand26391 wrote:
Bengaluru-Kanpur flights from FEB 20th

https://m.jagran.com/uttar-pradesh/kanp ... 93287.html


Strange that the article mentions the timings but not the airline
 
binayak
Posts: 986
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:00 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:28 pm

avier wrote:
NMIA will become attractive only once the upcoming Trans Harbour Link is up and open and connects directly to the oldest and most affluent part of Mumbai - South Mumbai. Till then their catchment area will be restricted to the nearby townships of Navi Mumbai, etc.
The main question remains as to which airline will want to operate out of the new airport, which could be a risky bet at the start.


Assuming the airport opens sometime in Dec 2020- Mar 2021 and also assuming both AI and 9W are in business (against the prevailing theory here),
In the beginning the airport will be treated as just another regional airport . UDAN , regional airlines will be asked to shift there . LCCs might start a plethora of destinations just like they're doing at STV/BHO . That will be the scenario till the Trans Harbor Link is inaugurated . (Assuming that's done in 2023-24)
Now 2024 onwards , first the LCCs should be asked to shift to NMIA . That'll mean MIAL can demolish BOM T1A , 1B , 1C and build new taxiways / parking bays to marginally improve capacity at BOM .
Then among FSCs , it will be best if Vistara shifts there . They can have proper hub ops at NMIA just like they wanted to do at BOM . 9W and AI can continue expanding at BOM with all their ground handling , MRO facilities there.
The above point potentially means BA , SQ , QR , TK can also shift to NMIA along with Vistara and Indigo. Jet and its 19 code share partners must stay together at BOM .
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
avier
Posts: 963
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:38 pm

binayak wrote:
avier wrote:
NMIA will become attractive only once the upcoming Trans Harbour Link is up and open and connects directly to the oldest and most affluent part of Mumbai - South Mumbai. Till then their catchment area will be restricted to the nearby townships of Navi Mumbai, etc.
The main question remains as to which airline will want to operate out of the new airport, which could be a risky bet at the start.


Assuming the airport opens sometime in Dec 2020- Mar 2021 and also assuming both AI and 9W are in business (against the prevailing theory here),
In the beginning the airport will be treated as just another regional airport . UDAN , regional airlines will be asked to shift there . LCCs might start a plethora of destinations just like they're doing at STV/BHO . That will be the scenario till the Trans Harbor Link is inaugurated . (Assuming that's done in 2023-24)
Now 2024 onwards , first the LCCs should be asked to shift to NMIA . That'll mean MIAL can demolish BOM T1A , 1B , 1C and build new taxiways / parking bays to marginally improve capacity at BOM .
Then among FSCs , it will be best if Vistara shifts there . They can have proper hub ops at NMIA just like they wanted to do at BOM . 9W and AI can continue expanding at BOM with all their ground handling , MRO facilities there.
The above point potentially means BA , SQ , QR , TK can also shift to NMIA along with Vistara and Indigo. Jet and its 19 code share partners must stay together at BOM .


For that the govt. would have to have a clear policy to stipulate what airlines/operations will function at which airport. If they don't, and just leave it up to the operators to decide, then obviously airlines will have parallel operations at both airports like in other major cities like London, New York , etc. Eg. BA operating out of mutiple airports in London Area.

I believe GA/private ops. will be the first to be moved if a directive/policy is passed. Also Cargo- both Int'l & local- should be most definitely moved there, as tons of warehouse/cargo facilities are in the outskirts of Mumbai, that's around Navi Mumbai area and be convenient to access the new NMIA.

Regarding segregation by codeshare partners with their respective local Indian airline partners , that would be very messy to decide who gets which airport, and is not certainly govts duty to stipulate that.
 
sibibom
Posts: 457
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:04 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:52 pm

The Navi Mumbai will not be ready before 2022, by them Trans Harbour Link will be nearing completion. Ironically its The bridge which is actually progressing quite well these days as opposed to the Airport. To begin with I expect, Air Asia, Indigo and Spice to start lots of new routes besides UDAN.

There could be AC buses from the Airport to Sobo, BKC, Borivali, and Thane, maybe even Pune (especially Hijenwadi, I know of many who use Panvel station for train travels). And coupled with flights 1000 bucks cheaper, will entice people to travel the 2 hours route, which after trans Harbour Link, may be as less as 45mins for Bandra, to an hour for Sobo and Andheri.

There is a lot of pent up demand for growth in MMR, lack of slots is really hurting the City. Navi Mumbai Airport 5-10 years down, will also attract International Traffic. Many airlines send 2 or more flights daily, operations will move to the new airport while maintaining the services to current airport. Like NRT-HND, LHR-LGW etc
 
User avatar
unrave
Posts: 2682
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:56 pm

No airline would be willing to cede even one pair of slots at BOM. Airlines will have parallel operations at both BOM and NMIA
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
avier
Posts: 963
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:12 pm

unrave wrote:
No airline would be willing to cede even one pair of slots at BOM. Airlines will have parallel operations at both BOM and NMIA


Yes, and so I stated that if the govt. comes up with a directive or policy to pick only one of the two airports for operations, then the airlines will have no option but to all remain at slot constrained BOM or move to NMIA and expand.
And they can't obviously go against such directives if that's what is the framework for operations.

Something similar done with Beijings new airport ;

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asia/china-reveals-plans-for-carrier-relocation-to-beijing-s-new-airport-11083436
 
EmoticonsAllDay
Posts: 148
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:19 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:22 pm

unrave wrote:
No airline would be willing to cede even one pair of slots at BOM. Airlines will have parallel operations at both BOM and NMIA


Is there any form of connection in construction between BOM and NMIA like highspeed rail or exclusive expressway? Airlines in India may demand some form of reliable connection if they are not going to abandon BOM completely to ease tra sit passengers especially when BOM is a hub for most airlines.
 
sibibom
Posts: 457
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:04 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:22 pm

I don't think anyone will give up slots in Mumbai, now if they would sell slots like LHR, some Indian carriers will strike the jackpot. SpiceJet, Go Air and maybe Jet to some extent will get their finances in order.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2475
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:44 pm

unrave wrote:
No airline would be willing to cede even one pair of slots at BOM. Airlines will have parallel operations at both BOM and NMIA


I agree. That's the same with LHR slots -- they are just too valuable.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2475
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:48 pm

sibibom wrote:
I don't think anyone will give up slots in Mumbai, now if they would sell slots like LHR, some Indian carriers will strike the jackpot. SpiceJet, Go Air and maybe Jet to some extent will get their finances in order.


Selling slots in India is a political no-go. What do you think will be the implications if airlines are allowed to sell "slots", which are a public asset owned by the Government of India. Regardless of the merits of suggesting that airlines have a finger in the pie, from a public view standpoint, the ability to sell and monetize the slots by airlines will have "scam" written all over it.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2475
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:49 pm

edealinfo wrote:
sibibom wrote:
I don't think anyone will give up slots in Mumbai, now if they would sell slots like LHR, some Indian carriers will strike the jackpot. SpiceJet, Go Air and maybe Jet to some extent will get their finances in order.


Selling slots in India is a political no-go. What do you think will be the implications if airlines are allowed to sell "slots", which are a public asset owned by the Government of India? Regardless of the merits of suggesting that airlines have a finger in the pie, from a public view standpoint, the ability to sell and monetize the slots by airlines will have "scam" written all over it.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1165
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:43 pm

avier wrote:
NMIA will become attractive only once the upcoming Trans Harbour Link is up and open and connects directly to the oldest and most affluent part of Mumbai - South Mumbai. Till then their catchment area will be restricted to the nearby townships of Navi Mumbai, etc.
The main question remains as to which airline will want to operate out of the new airport, which could be a risky bet at the start.


I think it will be fine. New Bombay plus Thana, Chembur, Kalyan etc is a big population center with an average income probably higher than most Indian cities. Also people forget the big corporate campuses in New Bombay. Employees going or coming on business trips would prefer New Bombay to BOM if that is your place of work. Finally New Bombay has one sweet spot - routes to cities that are poorly connected to BOM. Pick a city that doesn’t have a nonstop connection to BOM. Would I leave my house in Bandra at 6am to reach N Bombay at 7:30am, sure. Would the lower middle classes take buses / trains to save Rs XXX, sure. Would the upper middle classes take buses and trains or sit in their cars / Ubers for 2 plus hours to reach New Bombay just to save Rs 1000 - no way. Would domestic tourists fly into New Bombay and take a high speed train to the current airport and then a cab to their hotels / family, sure. I actually think there is a big opportunity to build a connecting hub at New Bom. If I was Jet, I would absolutely;utterly build up New Bom to ensure thei airline can serve a full range of cities from BOM. So no gloom and doom scenario here.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7706
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:57 pm

I think someone should develop a model to integrate geographically dispersed airports in a metro area as a single integrated airport system. Underground/overland metro train secure passenger/baggage transfers will be the best. Discarding existing airports and replacing with a greenfield airport 30-40 miles away is not the approach.

JFK/LGA/EWR, IAD/DCA/BWI, SFO/SJC/OAK, DXB/DWC are few metros can use this concept.
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