European airports usually have a night curfew and there are no departures for passenger flights between (usually) midnight and 5 am or even 6 am. But I was really surprised that this is not the case in Asia. What is the purpose of flights leaving at 3 a.m.? I still get it for long-haul flights, but are there really people who want to flight from BKK to Taiyuan (TYN) at 02:50 on Jan 1st ???? Or are these repositioning flights which are nearly always empty?

AA has a few 12-2 AM flights departing from LAS, LAX and SFO. They are generally packed to the gills although maybe not on 1/1.

The Western New Year Celebrations are not that popular in Asia.The chinese/asian New Year celebrations are much more important for these people.So i can imagine that there are enough people flying at that time in Asia.
In Europe this would never work.Even the usual holiday charter flights(which do depart from smaller airports without curfew) would be empty.

Jan 1st is of course special. But my question is not limited to this day. How can these flights work if you can‘t really sleep. You check in when you are really tired, you board in the middle of the night, you arrive very very early in the morning. This means no sleep at all for most passengers!

There is quite a bit of traffic at LAS between 11pm-2am. DL, AA, and UA utilize this time for many west coast-east coast operations to ensure an early flight out their east coast hubs.

DominikR83 wrote:

The Western New Year Celebrations are not that popular in Asia.The chinese/asian New Year celebrations are much more important for these people.So i can imagine that there are enough people flying at that time in Asia.
In Europe this would never work.Even the usual holiday charter flights(which do depart from smaller airports without curfew) would be empty.

Most European carriers have normal schedules for Dec 31 and Jan 1 (considering Jan 1 is a holiday in Western countries). So plenty of people will be on a plane in NYE.

Couple of reasons - (1) to have flights land in Europe int he am and (2) Europe had airport timing limitations first. So Asia (especially India) was forced to have flights that worked with EU airports (especially since connecting to US flights has always been important for India flights). THat said, things are changing as Asian economies grow. There usually are good choices of flight times now. One unintended recent upside has been the late flights work well in cities that have major traffic issues (I hate 3am departure and actually just did BOM-AMS at 3am today). But some poeple like not having traffic to deal with.

passyflyer wrote:

Jan 1st is of course special. But my question is not limited to this day. How can these flights work if you can‘t really sleep. You check in when you are really tired, you board in the middle of the night, you arrive very very early in the morning. This means no sleep at all for most passengers!

There's a number of reasons why airlines may operate these flights:

- Slot availability at other times may be unavailable
- Provides an opportunity to utilize an aircraft that might sit parked otherwise
- Departure times may be constrained by arriving flight banks of connecting passengers

I've observed that lots of flights from Middle East to India have departure times in the evening with early AM arrivals. I assume this is because flights arriving from the U.S. and Europe land in the early evening.

When I lived in L.A., I would frequently take red-eye flights to the East Coast. You land, drink a cup of coffee, and go to the office. You get your work done and go home. It isn't pleasant, but that's life for lots of industries.

I should rephrase my question. How do short-haul intra-asian flights work during the middle of the night, when passengers can get no sleep? That 1 am departure to Vienna makes sense, that 2:50 departure to Taiyuan does not!

Miamiairport wrote:

AA has a few 12-2 AM flights departing from LAS, LAX and SFO. They are generally packed to the gills although maybe not on 1/1.

I've flown LAX-DFW departing LAX after midnight. It was 100% full. Unless I just really need to be somewhere that morning.... I will NOT be doing that again.

You should go to Ibiza airport at 1am in July. It's packed

In the case of BKK/DMK-China, many flights arrive/depart in the early morning primarily due to slot availability in very busy Bangkok. Tourism to Thailand from China has grown exponentially and is now over 9m a year from dozens and dozens of Chinese cities. For many, they'll have little choice over when they can fly non-stop.

FlyingLaw1 wrote:

Miamiairport wrote:

AA has a few 12-2 AM flights departing from LAS, LAX and SFO. They are generally packed to the gills although maybe not on 1/1.

I've flown LAX-DFW departing LAX after midnight. It was 100% full. Unless I just really need to be somewhere that morning.... I will NOT be doing that again.

It was full because the fares were likely the cheapest. In the USA, with few exceptions (such as LAX-NYC), redeye flights exist primarily for aircraft utilization, and the savings are passed onto the passenger. In a basic sense, unlike its daytime counterparts, the airline simply needs to cover its variable costs (mostly crew and fuel) since the aircraft would otherwise be parked. Heck, the per flight airport charges are often less than the overnight parking fee.

This is why NK has overrelied on red eyes for years (not quite as true since opportunities are limited and its fleet continues to grow). It’s also the reason why HP operated its infamous midnight LAS departure bank. And it’s also why, during the heaviest traveled days, additional redeyes pop up — everything from midnight departures to PUJ, SJD and PVR on UA from EWR/ORD to 3:30ish departures from various cities on WN.

But again, these flights are popular primarily because of their lower cost; anybody who’s ever flown from LAS/LAX and connected via IAH, DEN, MSP or DFW knows this. Most redeyes were cut during the Great Recession - including the entire HP LAS night operation - and many didn’t return for years, including LAS-DFW on AA.

passyflyer wrote:

I should rephrase my question. How do short-haul intra-asian flights work during the middle of the night, when passengers can get no sleep? That 1 am departure to Vienna makes sense, that 2:50 departure to Taiyuan does not!

A lot of these flights are operated by low-cost airlines. I assume they are mainly for cost sensitive travellers who are willing to go forgo one night of proper sleep for the cheaper price.
At least that was my logic when I used to do SIN-TPE hops with Scoot in the middle of the night. Also the flights aren't that short, so if you're lucky you get a few hours sleep.

Not all airports have curfews. ATH for example, and I've taken a few of its 3am flights as well. The same logic that applies to these flights also applies to 5 or 6am flights as well though. In my experience, these flights work because they are the cheapest of the day usually. Otherwise some people may select them to have the whole day ahead of them at their destination or to avoid a long layover.

Ive been on a germanwings flight from Istanbul to Hamburg back in 2006, departure 340am arrival 605am. Horrible flight times but cheap. Germanwings used to fly the longer Istanbul and Izmir rotations overnight, instead of having the aircraft sitting around at HAM during the curfew.
Also last year I took a 1am flight from Doha to Munich, arriving at 6 something am. But I connected coming from Male.

passyflyer wrote:

I should rephrase my question. How do short-haul intra-asian flights work during the middle of the night, when passengers can get no sleep? That 1 am departure to Vienna makes sense, that 2:50 departure to Taiyuan does not!

Lousy flight times get accordingly lower average fares. In big markets make it cheap enough and you can a plane to anywhere at anytime. It may be a repositioning flight (as noted above) that will yield good fares for a 7am departure, for example.

stl07 wrote:

BOM is pretty much only active btw 12-2 am in terms of international flights. The day flights are usually completely empty

True for Europe and US bound flights, because they have to land there during daytime operating hours....I'd say the window would be around 11pm to 4am.....the international terminal is pretty much chocked at that time.....that's when most of the Europe/NA flights depart/arrive.....however, flights to the Middle East and some other international destinations are spread out during the rest of the day....

There is a 12:30 am departure from Singapore to Melbourne on a 77W

I know a few Frontier flights depart after 2am from San Juan to PHL and MCO.

passyflyer wrote:

I should rephrase my question. How do short-haul intra-asian flights work during the middle of the night, when passengers can get no sleep? That 1 am departure to Vienna makes sense, that 2:50 departure to Taiyuan does not!

It makes sense if you need to make a very early meeting or otherwise need to get to get to work in Taipei very early, can't afford to take a flight during 'prime time', have some sort of family emergency, or either got into BKK on a very late flight and are connecting to Taipei, or need to connect onto an early morning flight from Taipei. These are just a few examples I can think of from off the top of my head as to why someone would need to take a relatively short flight in the very early morning; I'm sure there's dozens more examples. In life, getting enough sleep sometimes takes a back seat to other things you need to get done. The fact of the matter is that there are people who want to sacrifice sleep to get from Bangkok to Taipei in the early morning, and the airlines are catering to that demand.

I know a few Frontier flights depart after 2am from San Juan to PHL and MCO.

As others have mentioned, night flights to Ibiza, Palma or other islands (e.g. Greece) are very common. Aegean has also quite a few summer night flights to main European cities so they can connect with their early morning bank of flights to the Greek islands.

CGN (24h ops) has also night flights, specially in summer and to Turkey and the Med. I have been in CGN at night in different hours of the night and there is always some activity.

For instance PG 5146 from CGN to AYT https://flightaware.com/live/flight/PGT5146 leaving CGN at 2:30 AM. In summer there are also some very early flights on Eurowings, TUI, Condor to Southern Spain or Mallorca that might leave at 4:30 - 5:00 AM.

Lots of overnight flights to SVO, IST, and SAW, benefiting from the time difference.

There are lots to SVO from across Europe. E.g.: OSL-SVO: 2340-0415, a block of 2h 35m; RIX-SVO, 0225-0500, a block of 1h 35m (!); HEL-SVO, 2355-0235, a block of 1h 40m; ARN-SVO, 0050-0455, a block of 2h 5m, and dozens more.

passyflyer wrote:

I should rephrase my question. How do short-haul intra-asian flights work during the middle of the night, when passengers can get no sleep? That 1 am departure to Vienna makes sense, that 2:50 departure to Taiyuan does not!

Culturally people are more willing to take overnight short haul flights in Asia.

Korean Leisure markets are quite fascinating. In a culture where taking time off work is a precious commodity, people maximize their vacations. The vast majority of leisure flights inbound to ICN are red eye flights and people go straight to work. There are 13 flights from BKK to ICN. 10 of the 13 are red eye flights. All 3 Phuket to ICN flights are red eyes. 7 of 9 Cebu to ICN are red eyes. 5 of 8 GUM-ICN flights are red eyes. There are 9 HKG to ICN red eye flights.

For Korea the planes fly business routes in the day and leisure routes at night. While not as extreme as in Korea, similar patterns happen in China.

India and the Middle East are stuck in an era where flights are scheduled based on their arrival time in Europe and Asia. Almost all international flights from India leave in the middle of the night so they arrive in daylight at their destination. The connecting banks in the Middle East drive short haul night flights.

passyflyer wrote:

Jan 1st is of course special. But my question is not limited to this day. How can these flights work if you can‘t really sleep. You check in when you are really tired, you board in the middle of the night, you arrive very very early in the morning. This means no sleep at all for most passengers!

It is not the end of the world how North America, Europe imagine it to be and are absolutely spoiled for choice. There people may not have choices and may be forced to take those times. If the planes were flying empty these flights would otherwise be cancelled. Aero Mexico has late night departure and arrivals in and out of Toronto and not forgetting CX, BR, CZ, PR all depart between 0030 and 0045 out of YYZ except for CX at 0145.

SCQ83 wrote:

As others have mentioned, night flights to Ibiza, Palma or other islands (e.g. Greece) are very common. Aegean has also quite a few summer night flights to main European cities so they can connect with their early morning bank of flights to the Greek islands.

CGN (24h ops) has also night flights, specially in summer and to Turkey and the Med. I have been in CGN at night in different hours of the night and there is always some activity.

For instance PG 5146 from CGN to AYT https://flightaware.com/live/flight/PGT5146 leaving CGN at 2:30 AM. In summer there are also some very early flights on Eurowings, TUI, Condor to Southern Spain or Mallorca that might leave at 4:30 - 5:00 AM.

Actually even in the wintertime ATH has late night departures just before or after midnight mostly to IST,LCA,BEY,TLV,JED,TBS,EVN,DME,CAI,AMM, DOH

Let see....
1. Departures in the middle of the night (Actually, extend that to a little bit earlier to something like after 11pm) for TPAC from N. America is VERY common. It's actually very nice timing - get on the plane, sleep, and you arrive early in the morning in East Asia (5-7am). You then get a whole day that didn't go to "waste", or, one can then easily connect to the morning bank of flights to SE Asia, arriving before lunchtime there. The other alternative timing is departing N. America in afternoon (11am-1pm), then arrive East Asia in the evening (4-7pm), then either you arrive at your destination, go to hotel, and sleep, or you connect to the evening bank to SE Asia and arrive around 11pm-1am there (That plane then get turned around as a red-eye flight to East Asia).
2. The flights that the OP is referring to, BKK-TYN (MU5068, BKK 0250 TYN 0755), is heavily leisure flight for tourists from China. That way, people get to spend the whole day in Bangkok doing whatever (and Bangkok never shuts down, so they still have something to do at, let say, 1am), get on the plane, back to Taiyuan, and head to work. If anything, the inbound timing is much worse anyway (MU5067, TYN 2155 BKK 0150+1), since you get to Bangkok at 2am, and won't get to the city until like 4am or so, but no hotels available yet, and although Bangkok doesn't really shuts down, by 4am the "night" stuff are winding down. Such timing also enable MU to just do a night rotation with their planes before using that same plane on domestic routes from TYN to wherever.
3. And quite frankly, it's not even unique to East/SE Asia. As people already mentioned, tons of those leisure flights in Europe heading to Mediterranean resorts depart at something like 2-3am also. Then you can head to west coast US (LAX, SFO, LAS), with tons of flights departing eastbound from 10pm-1am, to destinations as far west as Dallas.

compensateme wrote:

FlyingLaw1 wrote:

Miamiairport wrote:

AA has a few 12-2 AM flights departing from LAS, LAX and SFO. They are generally packed to the gills although maybe not on 1/1.

I've flown LAX-DFW departing LAX after midnight. It was 100% full. Unless I just really need to be somewhere that morning.... I will NOT be doing that again.

It was full because the fares were likely the cheapest. In the USA, with few exceptions (such as LAX-NYC), redeye flights exist primarily for aircraft utilization, and the savings are passed onto the passenger. In a basic sense, unlike its daytime counterparts, the airline simply needs to cover its variable costs (mostly crew and fuel) since the aircraft would otherwise be parked. Heck, the per flight airport charges are often less than the overnight parking fee.

This is why NK has overrelied on red eyes for years (not quite as true since opportunities are limited and its fleet continues to grow). It’s also the reason why HP operated its infamous midnight LAS departure bank. And it’s also why, during the heaviest traveled days, additional redeyes pop up — everything from midnight departures to PUJ, SJD and PVR on UA from EWR/ORD to 3:30ish departures from various cities on WN.

But again, these flights are popular primarily because of their lower cost; anybody who’s ever flown from LAS/LAX and connected via IAH, DEN, MSP or DFW knows this. Most redeyes were cut during the Great Recession - including the entire HP LAS night operation - and many didn’t return for years, including LAS-DFW on AA.

Fairly, domestic flights departing LAX aren’t as cheap as the midnight arrival ones. LAX see TONS of TPACs between 1700 and 2100. Those who needs to go east from those flights will have to either fly those red eyes or wait in LAX overnight, and they get to charge like rage for these particular overnights.
Back to the case of Asia. The reason they don’t have curfew is that they are rarely built close to heavy residential areas. If you know LHR, you will know why it is so important.
Based on my observation for a random Chinese airport, they receive flights arriving VERY LATE (I.e., 2:30a.m.), all of which are operated by ULCC. Legacy carriers seldom schedule their flights between 1am and 4:30am, because they can’t (airlines are for profit, after all). Flights observed by LCCs (i.e., Scoot TR100&TR106) are often done to exploit the tourism and irregular arrival transfer opportunities, not for the rich.

I also observed the case of CTU. CTU doesn’t have a curfew, and they do see LOADS of long hauls departing ludicrously late (I.e., for AKL at 2 a.m.), as well as those extra ludicrous short hauls.
Reason summary:
Subsidies and overcrowding. As known, CTU loves giving subsidies, and they do attract flights, mostly targeting tourism (business people are rare in these places and CA will absorb most of them). Since most long haul flights departing CTU leaves at midnight and arrives at early morning (I.e., the CTU-AKL example above, arriving in AKL in late afternoon, setting back at 10ish p.m., back at CTU at 4:30-5am ish). CTU also lacks the large amount of influx absorption ability at about 40 planes per hour, meaning its 11pm-1am slots are expensive, bad for ULLCs. Even for airports with little long hauls (I.e., TSN), their midnight periods are filled with already existent arrivals across the nation, also expensive to get slots.

Lots of late / early flights in Central and eastern Europe, and the CIS. Unlike mainland Europe times suit passengers and not the unions
Especially in Russia where there are so many time zones
I would also have thought that 24 hour operations is a very efficient use of aurcraft

Kenya Airways has flights which arrive in Mauritius at 03 10 twice weekly and which leave at 03 55. The flight leaving Nairobi at 21 50 allows for a short stop in NBO for passengers from West Africa and Paris to Mauritius, while the flights arriving early in the morning at 07 10 at NBO allows for connection to other African destinations, Amsterdam and London.(Mauritius is not well connected to the continent in which it's found, except for South Africa). Kenya Airways relies heavily on connecting traffic for that route since MRU-NBO O&D traffic consists mainly of business people, the rare Mauritians going to Kenya for holidays(Safaris), and tourists combining Mauritius and Kenya for a beach and bush experience. Tourist arrivals from Kenya remain relatively low since Mauritius is an expensive destination for Kenyans who would prefer Mombasa or Zanzibar which are also nearer.

eirflot wrote:

I would also have thought that 24 hour operations is a very efficient use of aurcraft

It would be; it's the other factors that make it somewhat marginal.

1. Curfews at airports. Without being able to take off and land, you're up a creek with no paddle.
2. Demand. Running a few flights at night might be ok for those few seeking bargains, but humans are daytime animals. I imagine that unless there's other logistical considerations (slots unavailable at other times) people tend to fly during the day. No more than a minority of people want to travel at night.
3. Crew needs. I work in a 24-hour operation, and the most loathed shift is nights. It relates to point 2 - people are daytime animals. Unless there's a premium of some sort (like on long-haul), I could see wanting to keep crews reasonably fresh for day work, where most of the money is. Flipping back and forth between nights and days is hard on employees.

We have a bunch of those here in LatAm, CM has a bunch of departures from places like LIM, SCL, GRU, GIG and others between 12 - 4 am, those flights land in PTY around 6 - 8 am and many passengers connect on to the first US bound bank of flights from 8 - 11 am.

JFK has midnight to 2am departures to the Caribbean and Latin America as well. It happens.

Just tonight there are departures to Kingston, Guatemala City, Mexico City, Cincinnati, Manila, Chengdu, Beijing, Ft.Lauderdale, Costa Rica between 1am and 3am

maverick4002 wrote:

JFK has midnight to 2am departures to the Caribbean and Latin America as well. It happens.

Just tonight there are departures to Kingston, Guatemala City, Mexico City, Cincinnati, Manila, Chengdu, Beijing, Ft.Lauderdale, Costa Rica between 1am and 3am

To put it to a wider scale, loads of TATL&TPACs arrive after 10pm, with many of which going back after midnight, and they are all LONG HUALS. This scene can’t be spotted in many other places.
But I am afraid it is mildly off-topic, for the OP wants explanation on E.Asia, not NY.

passyflyer wrote:

European airports usually have a night curfew and there are no departures for passenger flights between (usually) midnight and 5 am or even 6 am.

Is that really true? I know German airports have a night curfew and London airports also have night restrictions. But other European airports?

passyflyer wrote:

I should rephrase my question. How do short-haul intra-asian flights work during the middle of the night, when passengers can get no sleep? That 1 am departure to Vienna makes sense, that 2:50 departure to Taiyuan does not!

Why wouldn't it make sense? BKK-TYN only operates 3x a week and is likely catering to price sensitive tour groups. It allows tour groups to sell deals at a reasonable price and gives customers a direct flight and in some cases act as promotional benefit for customers to "save" an extra night of hotel.

In addition, a lot of Asian hubs are 24h, so there are also passengers coming in from other flights before midnight and don't want to sit in the airport for another 6h and wait for the next morning flight.

Thanks everyone for the replies. Much appreciated. I usually fly from or through AMS, CDG, LUX, FRA, MUC or LHR where there are strict night curfews so this really surprised me. Guess there‘s mainly a cultural thing (maximising vacation time and saving money) then. Anyway even at BKK there are only a few flights per hour between 2 am and 5 am (less than 10) when there are up to 40 an hour during the day. And the midnight to 2 am departures bound for Europe are actually fine, they arrive in the morning and you could get decent sleep.

passyflyer wrote:

Jan 1st is of course special. But my question is not limited to this day. How can these flights work if you can‘t really sleep. You check in when you are really tired, you board in the middle of the night, you arrive very very early in the morning. This means no sleep at all for most passengers!

You do realize people can sleep outside of the "normal" sleeping hours, right?

aviationaware wrote:

passyflyer wrote:

Jan 1st is of course special. But my question is not limited to this day. How can these flights work if you can‘t really sleep. You check in when you are really tired, you board in the middle of the night, you arrive very very early in the morning. This means no sleep at all for most passengers!

You do realize people can sleep outside of the "normal" sleeping hours, right?

Of course I do. But for those poor folks from Taiyuan that‘s a bit hard especially when checking in during early night hours, then waiting at the gate, then having a rather short flight ... When arriving at your destination you can‘t get a hotel room makes things even more difficult. Of course it‘s somehow possible I assume but very hard anyway.

FlyingSicilian wrote:

i just flew a UNITED flight a week and half ago from San Jose, Costa Rica to Houston-IAH and I boarded around 2am. Thank God I was in first, but sleep is possible.

That flight is at least a bit longer. There are for example flights from BKK to HKG in the middle of the night and those are only 2 hours and 20 min. Sleep will be very short on these...

I suspect in many Asian locations there is little worry about NIMBY's complaining about noise unlike in most of Europe and the USA so can have overnight flight operations. There is the need to utilize all possible times and in some locations, very hot day temperatures that limit day ops.

A lots of responses have been talking about how XXX US airports have 12-2 am departures, i.e. LAX/PHX for morning arrivals in the east coast.

That is not what the OP is asking to clarify.

Why so many Asian airports having middle of the night short flights? That is departing at 1 am and arriving at 3 am.

The reason is culture. In India at least with so much crowding and overpopulation people try to avoid that by traveling by overnight car and bus and train and those habits carried over to flights.

Perhaps the other bigger reason is Western ideals of quality of life and NIMBYism. In the west, the populace most wont put up with loud noise over their heads at 3 am if they live around an airport. Overnight curfews are the result. No such “right” exists in India but they should. Unfortunately the areas around busy Indian airports are populated by the lowest rung of Indian society and those people have absolutely no voice in India.

The only people who have a voice in Indian aviation are the Elitists at Airliners-India.

Some major European airports also have midnight flights. For example CDG, MAD and LGW have night time movements too to name a few, plus several large to mid sized European airports people have named above.

I think that it is down to NIMBY and less European preference for red-eye flights. For example, going by the love of red eye in other parts of the world, one would assume there would be plenty of Western Europe-North America red eye flights, but there aren't. A 10 hours LON-MIA should be a pretty comfortable red-eye flight with decent dep/arr time slots, but there is none. Personally I have a long work day and don't leave work until 8pm usually, so arriving at an airport at say 11pm for a 1am departure would be great. However, now there isn't even a choice if I wanted.

Why you may ask. Because it suits many airlines for many reasons and it suits many pax for many reasons. Life would be very boring if everything was the same.