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TN486
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:55 am

Why you may ask. Because it suits many airlines for many reasons and it suits many pax for many reasons. Life would be very boring if everything was the same.
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jetmatt777
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:11 am

UA operated a 1:40am departure DEN-IAH the past few weeks for the holiday rush. I believe it arrives about 4:30am with a 1 hour time change. Very short flight given the time of day (night). Packed to the gills.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:42 am

MartijnNL wrote:
Is that really true? I know German airports have a night curfew and London airports also have night restrictions. But other European airports?


CGN at least does not have any curfew. 24h operations.

mdavies06 wrote:
For example CDG, MAD and LGW have night time movements too to name a few, plus several large to mid sized European airports people have named above.


Two interesting flights are Iberia's daily summer night flights from MAD to Tenerife and Gran Canaria.

IB3908 MAD 00:10 - TFS 02:10
IB3909 TFS 02:45 - MAD 06:30

IB3836 MAD 23:55 - LPA 01:45
IB3839 LPA 02:25 - MAD 06:05

Those flights allow connectivity with the first and last of the day Iberia's domestic and European waves.
 
Flightsimboy
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:08 am

[quote="passyflyer"]Thanks everyone for the replies. Much appreciated. I usually fly from or through AMS, CDG, LUX, FRA, MUC or LHR where there are strict night curfews so this really surprised me. Guess there‘s mainly a cultural thing (maximising vacation time and saving money) then. Anyway even at BKK there are only a few flights per hour between 2 am and 5 am (less than 10) when there are up to 40 an hour during the day. And the midnight to 2 am departures bound for Europe are actually fine, they arrive in the morning and you could get decent sleep.[/quote]

How does it become a cultural thing lol. Also maximising vacation time and saving money is something done worldwide. Are you saying Europeans dont do that. It is not part of European culture? Makes you wonder why so many low cost carriers exist in Europe if everyone can afford to buy regular fare tickets and travel and time's when they want to. Culture is related to a society and it''s way of life. If all airports around the world have early morning arrival and departures it's an aviation thing. Don't forget the largest early morning arrivals in Toronto are from the so called sun destinations. Now heading down south in winter that is a cultural thing if you see it in that context.
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peterinlisbon
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:40 am

You can sleep before or after the flight. If the flight at 3pm is 200$ and the flight at 2am is 50$, a lot of people will take the cheaper flight.
 
teachpdx
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:19 am

I’m taking a 2:20 AM flight out of BKK on MU in just a couple days. This one works well for connections back to North America... only a few hours in NKG before continuing on to YVR.
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SCQ83
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:33 am

Flightsimboy wrote:
How does it become a cultural thing lol. Also maximising vacation time and saving money is something done worldwide. Are you saying Europeans dont do that. It is not part of European culture? Makes you wonder why so many low cost carriers exist in Europe if everyone can afford to buy regular fare tickets and travel and time's when they want to. Culture is related to a society and it''s way of life. If all airports around the world have early morning arrival and departures it's an aviation thing. Don't forget the largest early morning arrivals in Toronto are from the so called sun destinations. Now heading down south in winter that is a cultural thing if you see it in that context.


According to Wikipedia, the minimum annual leave in natural days by country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... by_country

USA: 0 days
China: 5 days
Hong Kong: 7 days
Singapore: 7 days
Canada: 10 days
Japan: 10 days
South Korea: 15 days

Most Western European countries have something in between 20 and 25 natural days (so that is 4-5 full weeks of holidays adding the weekends and excluding any additional bank holiday) to every salaried worker no matter their age, how long they have worked in the company, etc.

So unsurprisingly Asians or Canadians need to maximise more their holidays.

Also some of those night flights in Europe work well due to the nature of the market. For instance, Ibiza (already mentioned) or Mykonos see plenty of night flights. But 1) those are very seasonal markets meaning in peak season flights cannot be accommodated in peak hours and 2) being "party" islands flying at "unnatural" hours is not an issue for people that might have not slept for 1-week at night.
 
Yossarian22
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:32 am

Last spring my wife and I took a last minute AirAsia flight from KMG to Phuket that left KMG at 2 in the morning, it cost like 150 USD round trip for the both of us, on a last minute deal for an unexpected long weekend off of work. In three weeks we are flying to BKT on AirAsia, another 2AM flight, for like 75 USD/person one way, during the spring festival holiday.

AirAsia offers overnight flights from KMG to 4 destinations, two of which they don’t offer during the day. I’m guessing it comes down to aircraft utilization, AirAsia can charge cheap fares by keeping the planes in the air 24/7, and the overnight flights are extra cheap.
 
AirbusOnly
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:26 pm

DXB for example is extemly busy also during night hours with numerous flights to India, Asia, Australia and some African destinations.
 
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c933103
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:39 pm

passyflyer wrote:
Jan 1st is of course special.

No, not really, especially when compared to the January 1st on the Chinese Calendar for Chinese travellers.
If anything, people would participate in countdown event and then travel back home after such event.
But my question is not limited to this day. How can these flights work if you can‘t really sleep. You check in when you are really tired, you board in the middle of the night, you arrive very very early in the morning. This means no sleep at all for most passengers!

You either sleep before the flight or sleep after the flight, in additional to in-flight nap. Not all people around the world have same sleep schedule, especially when these midnight flights are usually cheaper, that can inventivize travellers to adjust their sleeping schedule around these flights
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:18 pm

AirbusOnly wrote:
DXB for example is extemly busy also during night hours with numerous flights to India, Asia, Australia and some African destinations.


And also across the Middle East, Pakistan, etc.

Overnight at DXB coincides with various departure and arrival banks for EK.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:41 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
According to Wikipedia, the minimum annual leave in natural days by country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... by_country

USA: 0 days
China: 5 days
Hong Kong: 7 days
Singapore: 7 days
Canada: 10 days
Japan: 10 days
South Korea: 15 days


Statutorily-guaranteed leave isn't a thing in the USA but people with the money to fly (intercontinental, anyway) have annual vacation time, typically on the order of 15-25 days.
 
airbazar
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:11 pm

The answer is easy. It has to do with the arrival time. Same reason why some U.S. East coast flights depart for Europe at the gawd-awful time of 4:30-5pm. Because business people like to arrive early and the airline has an early morning connecting bank.
Flights that depart in the middle of the night are usually long haul flights too. BKK-TYN is a 1500nm flight which is quite long and it arrives at 8:55am just in time for business people to go to work or because the airline might have a mid-morning connecting bank.

In Europe by contrast most flights are very short, less than 500nm. LHR-SVO for example is only ~1300nm. It makes very little sense to have short haul flights depart in the middle of the night, even in Asia and even if there was no curfew in Europe.

DominikR83 wrote:
In Europe this would never work.

Uh? There are literally hundreds of flights departing either very late at night or very early in the morning. The main reason they don't depart between mid-night and 5am is because of curfews. I have taken more than a fair share of these 5amish flights where I have to wake up at 3am to catch the flight. These same European passengers who you claim would never take a middle of the night departure don't seem to have a problem doing it when they return from Asia.

MIflyer12 wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
According to Wikipedia, the minimum annual leave in natural days by country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... by_country

USA: 0 days


Statutorily-guaranteed leave isn't a thing in the USA but people with the money to fly (intercontinental, anyway) have annual vacation time, typically on the order of 15-25 days.


Yup. I have 28 days plus 10 official holidays at my American company in the U.S.
Most full-time employees in the U.S. have at least 2 weeks but everyone I know has at least 3. More recently companies are starting to switch to flex time where all leave is polled into "paid time-off" where employees are allowed to self manage their sick/personal/vacation days which is how I ended up with 28 days. Another new thing are companies like my wife's where they can take all the time they want as long as the work gets done.
 
raylee67
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:51 pm

passyflyer wrote:
I was really surprised that this is not the case in Asia. What is the purpose of flights leaving at 3 a.m.? I still get it for long-haul flights, but are there really people who want to flight from BKK to Taiyuan (TYN) at 02:50 on Jan 1st ???? Or are these repositioning flights which are nearly always empty?

No, these are not re-position flights. And you would actually find a lot of these flights at night in East Asia. You can search the schedule for Seoul-Guam/Saipan, Hong Kong-Tokyo/Osaka/Singapore, Taipei-Tokyo/Guam, etc., and you will find countless 3-to-5 hrs flights departing these airports between 0am and 2am. Actually, at HKG, one of the busiest batch of departure is arguably 9pm-1am.

Imagine, I get off work on Friday at 6pm, go home and pick up my luggage, and head to the airport, and I can hop on the 1am or 2am flight, and then 3 or 4 hrs later, I am at our vacation destination for the weekend (or long weekend). The same logic for heading back home (which would apply to your BKK-Taiyuan scenario). Currently, I live in Hong Kong. There was once I was spending a week of vacation in the northeastern wilderness of Japan. I could have dinner at 7pm in Sendai, get on the 830pm bullet train for Tokyo, arriving at Haneda at 1130pm, and get on the 150am Cathay Dragon flight from HND to HKG (which sadly has been discontinued, but ANA continues to offer the same routing at around the same time). I arrived at HKG at 430am, go home, drop off my luggage, have a shower, and have time to spare to show up at work at 9am.

In my experience flying HKG-ICN, HKG-PUS, HKG-KIX and HKG-HND/NRT on those flights departing HKG at 1am or 2am, they are always full. I must have been on those 1am flights for 20+ times, and I have been on Korean Air, Cathay and ANA for those flights, on peak season or low season, and I have yet to encounter an intra-Asia flight at those hours that is not full.
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 359/51 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA FI LX
AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK PD
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
SeoulIncheon
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:11 pm

Also happens that flights are generally longer in East Asia. BKK-TYN(Taiyuan) is blocked at 4:05 with TYN one hour ahead. It is similar to AMS-TLV or LAX-ORD. Even in Europe such odd-hour flights are not unheard of.
LY336 AMS 2230 - TLV 0255

One of the most extreme red-eye in Asia would be PEK-ICN and HND-ICN.
PEK 0150 - ICN 0500 (2h 10m)
HND 0200 - ICN 0450 (2h 50m - 3 airlines, 16 weekly total!)
 
ImperialEagle
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:30 pm

Here in the US,back in the day, there were plenty of flights in the wee hours. EA in particular would schedule flights at all hours in the middle of the night through ATL. NW used to do a few all-nighters coast to coast stopping 7 to 9 times along the way. As previously mentioned, price had a lot to do with it.
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:38 pm

SU has large numbers of overnight flights from all over Europe to SVO. Unsurprisingly, those closer to SVO have especially 'bad' timings. One of the 'worst' is MSQ-SVO: 0310-0435. This is a 1h 25m block. SU has around 100 departures from SVO between 0600 and 0900.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
CrawleyBen
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:54 pm

Pretty sure Ukraine International (PS) operated a service from Gatwick to Kiev with a departure time of 03.20am during summer 2018. Not sure of the frequency I'm afraid.

Ben
 
Gr8Circle
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:17 pm

texdravid wrote:
:lol: A lots of responses have been talking about how XXX US airports have 12-2 am departures, i.e. LAX/PHX for morning arrivals in the east coast.

That is not what the OP is asking to clarify.

Why so many Asian airports having middle of the night short flights? That is departing at 1 am and arriving at 3 am.

The reason is culture. In India at least with so much crowding and overpopulation people try to avoid that by traveling by overnight car and bus and train and those habits carried over to flights.

Perhaps the other bigger reason is Western ideals of quality of life and NIMBYism. In the west, the populace most wont put up with loud noise over their heads at 3 am if they live around an airport. Overnight curfews are the result. No such “right” exists in India but they should. Unfortunately the areas around busy Indian airports are populated by the lowest rung of Indian society and those people have absolutely no voice in India.

The only people who have a voice in Indian aviation are the Elitists at Airliners-India. :stirthepot:


I think a lot of others on here have explained the reasons for late night flights out of India in a more mature manner.....
 
CobaltScar
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:19 pm

passyflyer wrote:
European airports usually have a night curfew and there are no departures for passenger flights between (usually) midnight and 5 am or even 6 am. But I was really surprised that this is not the case in Asia. What is the purpose of flights leaving at 3 a.m.? I still get it for long-haul flights, but are there really people who want to flight from BKK to Taiyuan (TYN) at 02:50 on Jan 1st ???? Or are these repositioning flights which are nearly always empty?


There was already a thread about this in the recent past. Many airports in the USA also have flights that leave at 3am , and not for long haul. Its about using a plane that would otherwise just be sitting there on one hand, and its about people chasing super cheap tickets for awful departure times on the other.
 
2travel2know2
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:23 pm

ImperialEagle wrote:
Here in the US,back in the day, there were plenty of flights in the wee hours. EA in particular would schedule flights at all hours in the middle of the night through ATL. NW used to do a few all-nighters coast to coast stopping 7 to 9 times along the way. As previously mentioned, price had a lot to do with it.
For a while it seems Eastern had a hub-like operation at IAH at some hour between 0100 and 0300.
I wonder if it would be profitable for UA to operate night-hub for before/after Thanksgiving holiday and weekend before Xmas and after New Year at ORD, IAH, DEN plus westbound red-eyes from EWR/IAD (BOS/MIA) to LAX/SFO (LAS/SEA).
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
Gr8Circle
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:28 pm

texdravid wrote:
The only people who have a voice in Indian aviation are the Elitists at Airliners-India. :stirthepot:


How is this relevant to the topic?
 
Flightsimboy
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:47 pm

Most Statutory holidays in Canada fall on a Fri or Mon so at least you get a long weekend. Annual vacation days start at 10 days. It steadily grows to 15 to 20. Don't forget contract staff have no days off. You don't go to work, you don't get paid. However a 4% of you salary is paid as vacation time.

USA at 0 days huh? I know they have similar days as us.

At 25 to 30 days in Europe you are all thoroughly spoiled :)
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mm320cap
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:58 pm

aviationaware wrote:
passyflyer wrote:
Jan 1st is of course special. But my question is not limited to this day. How can these flights work if you can‘t really sleep. You check in when you are really tired, you board in the middle of the night, you arrive very very early in the morning. This means no sleep at all for most passengers!


You do realize people can sleep outside of the "normal" sleeping hours, right?


Sort of. I’ve been working red eye flights for 25 years and it takes a significant toll.
 
dfwjim1
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:00 pm

There is a flight from Miami to Bogota that leaves MIA at 0315 and gets into Bogota at around 0630. The inbound flight arrives in MIA at 0100.
 
Draken21fx
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:08 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
Is that really true? I know German airports have a night curfew and London airports also have night restrictions. But other European airports?


CGN at least does not have any curfew. 24h operations.

mdavies06 wrote:
For example CDG, MAD and LGW have night time movements too to name a few, plus several large to mid sized European airports people have named above.


Two interesting flights are Iberia's daily summer night flights from MAD to Tenerife and Gran Canaria.

IB3908 MAD 00:10 - TFS 02:10
IB3909 TFS 02:45 - MAD 06:30

IB3836 MAD 23:55 - LPA 01:45
IB3839 LPA 02:25 - MAD 06:05

Those flights allow connectivity with the first and last of the day Iberia's domestic and European waves.


Yeah Europe is small enough for the majority of flights to be below 3h hence red eye flights are not common but as you mentioned in some extreme examples we do have intra-European night flights.

Of the top of my head there used to be a night AGP-ATH one during summer. A few from Cyprus to the UK, the Gran Canaria ones from some places in Europe, an Easyjet Athens to London and a few others which I might be missing now.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:53 pm

passyflyer wrote:
European airports usually have a night curfew and there are no departures for passenger flights between (usually) midnight and 5 am or even 6 am. But I was really surprised that this is not the case in Asia. What is the purpose of flights leaving at 3 a.m.? I still get it for long-haul flights, but are there really people who want to flight from BKK to Taiyuan (TYN) at 02:50 on Jan 1st ???? Or are these repositioning flights which are nearly always empty?



It's like the late night HA flight from LAS-HNL that is paired with an early flight to LAS. You get the most time to gamble & sleep on the way home & then drive from the airport to work. If I was celebrating New Years in BKK a flight back home at 2:50am would be great end to the night.
 
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itripreport
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:54 pm

Actually idk if any of you mentioned this, but Tijuana airport in Mexico actually has a bank of flights that leave between 12-3AM, all flights are between 2-3 hours and they somehow all manage to depart full, with someone having multiple frequencies within that bank.
 
bennett123
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:57 pm

Another factor is the population density in parts of Europe.

Means that you have lots of neighbours wanting to get some sleep.
 
ggflyboy
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:18 pm

This thread reminded me of BQN. IIRC, practically all their flights are between midnight and 9 AM. When I flew through there, I asked the shuttle driver (at 3AM) why that was... he suggested it’s because no one wants to see the place in the daylight. The “terminal” is a converted hanger. Never got an actual straight answer on the scheduling, though.

As an aside, the Spirit flight we were on from MCO got legitimately lost taxiing... lots of u-turns. We tried the cargo ramp, the maintenance facility, crossed over the active runway twice. There was no other traffic. We eventually just waited for a JetBlue flight on very long final to land, watched it back-taxi past us, and followed it to the mysterious hanger. Apparently, it was a new route out of MCO... per the FLL crew we were on the shuttle with.

Similar experience to another Spirit flight I took out of RSW where an hour sitting on the ramp with the PTU running due to “ATC delays” turned out to be “dispatch never filed a flight plan.” Good times.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:36 pm

passyflyer wrote:
Jan 1st is of course special. But my question is not limited to this day. How can these flights work if you can‘t really sleep. You check in when you are really tired, you board in the middle of the night, you arrive very very early in the morning. This means no sleep at all for most passengers!


I know lots of people that can sleep as soon as they hit the seat.
 
2travel2know2
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:46 pm

dfwjim1 wrote:
There is a flight from Miami to Bogota that leaves MIA at 0315 and gets into Bogota at around 0630. The inbound flight arrives in MIA at 0100.
Both AV and CM have MIA arrival and departures between 2400 and 0600.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
superjeff
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:36 pm

I think that in Europe, and also intra-Asia, there is going to be limited numbers of red-eye flights because, quite simply, the distances are too short. it is one thing to fly BOM-LHR overnight, because you can get a bit of sleep on the flight, even in Economy, but quite another to be on a 2 or 3 hour overnight flight (LAX-DFW, for example) because you lose a night's sleep. If one destination is a hub, perhaps it might work for connections; otherwise, I doubt it (and I've flown my share of the types of flights.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:51 pm

airbazar wrote:
I have taken more than a fair share of these 5amish flights where I have to wake up at 3am to catch the flight.

Did you live at the airport during that time? Two hours sounds really short for waking up, getting dressed, packing your stuff, travelling to the airport, clearing security and heading to your gate.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:40 am

AY has lots of around-the-midnight-time departures to Asia, 22:00 - 01:00 or so. You have a full day at the office or home, get to the airport, board, eat dinner, and sleep. Arrive at the destination sometime before noon or afternoon, depending on destination. Not bad. Actually this is the perfect arrangement for me at least. However, the flight should be longer, because the available sleep time after dinner is limited.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:50 am

MartijnNL wrote:
Did you live at the airport during that time? Two hours sounds really short for waking up, getting dressed, packing your stuff, travelling to the airport, clearing security and heading to your gate.


It is not necessarily that short. I don't usually do 5am departures, but I do 6:50am departures for my usual flight to work, and while I tend to be at the airport early, I wouldn't have to be. With just hand luggage and priority security, you basically walk in to your gate half an hour before the flight and that should be enough. If you miss your flight due to traffic there will be another bus an hour or two later.

So: wake up and shower 20min, drive 30min, so in theory if I wake up 5:30 i.e. less than two hours before the flight, I should still be at the gate by 6:20...
Last edited by AirlineCritic on Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
melpax
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:08 am

Looking at the MEL departures list, you have a few flights that depart between 11:45pm-01:00AM (JQ flights to AKL & CHC, then flights to KL, Tokyo, Singapore & HK).

The first international flights of the morning are PR to Manila at 05:50 & EK to DBX at 06:00. Being international flights, you have to be at checkin at least 2 hours prior......

First domestic flights of the day leave at 06:00 thanks to the SYD curfew.
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marcogr12
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Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:03 pm

maverick4002 wrote:
JFK has midnight to 2am departures to the Caribbean and Latin America as well. It happens.

Just tonight there are departures to Kingston, Guatemala City, Mexico City, Cincinnati, Manila, Chengdu, Beijing, Ft.Lauderdale, Costa Rica between 1am and 3am

I didnt know that Cincinnati and Ft.Lauderdale belonged to the Carribean and/or Latin America..:p
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
MartijnNL
Posts: 999
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:44 am

Re: Departures in the middle of the night

Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:57 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
AY has lots of around-the-midnight-time departures to Asia, 22:00 - 01:00 or so. You have a full day at the office or home, get to the airport, board, eat dinner, and sleep. Arrive at the destination sometime before noon or afternoon, depending on destination. Not bad. Actually this is the perfect arrangement for me at least. However, the flight should be longer, because the available sleep time after dinner is limited.

They have 'only' three during that time frame: Hongkong, Singapore and Bangkok. Finnair operates ten flights to Asia between 16:50 and 18:20. A much better departure time if you ask me. Personally I prefer flights that leave even earlier, let's say between 13:00 and 15:00, so you arrive in Asia early in the morning. And you don't have to sleep in the air. To each his own, I guess.

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