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compensateme
Posts: 3279
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:43 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
compensateme wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
It’s not even worth my time to respond to this silly debate that DL is going to de hub DTW or MSP.

Why does this nonsensical debate continue to come up?


That $200M+ WCAA has spent over the past decade operating, maintaining and (eventually) building a replacement facility for management offices certainly paid off!!! Just think, they could’ve spent that cash toward principle debt and saved $300M (or more) in interest expense... nah, we’d prefer to save the demolition cost....

*When the North Termianal was conceived, management offices were intended to be relocated in the former Marriott; later, they selected an off-site commericial location with a lower buildout cost. Ultimately, they decided to keep the offices as is, with film revenue covering the operational expenses of the terminal...

Why didn't they build the new airport adminstration office building at the same time they built the North Terminal instead of paying for the maintenance and upkeep of their offices in the Smith for an additional 8 years after they closed the terminal from passenger use?


Lester Robinson genuinely believed it was the most cost effective solution; his accounting staff obviously underestimated the cost of R&M and pursued zealous figures for RON and film permit fees. The decision likely cost him his job. He didn’t deserve it ... Turkia Mullin is probably still cashing checks drawn from our money.

Initally it was proposed the offices would move to the former Marriott (with the top two floors reopening as a mini-hotel), although this was quickly rejected by WCAA over integration logistics. In reality, most simply didn’t want to retain the 1960s-era design. Instead, they proposed moving the offices offsite, citing a much lower buildout cost. But that idea was rejected after they decided they must be onsite, and hence status quo was literally maintained.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:05 pm

I used to fly NK and NW so a lot of my time was spent in Concourse C. I remember once NW moved to their new facility, NK.took over what was left of C. Lots of time spent in MCO's airside 3 and 2. NW was at 3 and NK was at 2.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
blockski
Posts: 504
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:30 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:12 pm

klm617 wrote:
For the same reason it was more profitable to move connecting traffic from DTW to ATL. The same argument could be made about moving flow from MSP to DTW hypothetically speaking. Don't misquote me not advocating moving MSP flights to DTW but stating an example.


1) that was part of rationalizing the network of the merged airline, and 2) they still connect a boatload of people at both DTW and MSP. Not to mention that 3) ATL actually does offer a unique role as a hub in the SE that neither DTW or MSP can serve.

So. no - you can't make this argument. DTW and MSP have co-existed as hubs for the same airline for decades now.

Let's also just say: if this were actually more profitable for Delta to do, then they likely would've done it already. They haven't - because this theory is completely wrong.
 
evank516
Posts: 1944
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:57 pm

Fargo wrote:
evank516 wrote:
Fargo wrote:

So let me get this straight (and I am not saying this in a sarcastic/condensing way, I'm curious), you are saying consolidating midwest ops at DTW would cost a lot? How would it not be more cost effective to build one "mega(ish)hub" at DTW for the midwest in space that is far more effective for connections than MSP (MSP is arguably the worst airport in the DL network for connections)?



I connect in MSP A LOT. I mean A LOT. In fact I've probably connected in MSP more than I did in ATL this past year. The only issue with MSP is that everything is a schlep, but it is certainly not a bad place to connect in any way, shape, or form and they have a tram that takes you from the beginning of C down to concourse A which relieves some of the walking. I actually prefer it to DTW and I've connected in both. Not to say DTW isn't an easy connection, it is, but MSP is far from the worst airport to connect. I'd say that title probably goes to ATL if we're being exclusive to Delta's route network.


Let me be clear, MSP is far from a bad airport, it is great for O&D, but most people I know prefer the simple layout of pier concourses with an underground tunnel/tram. Keeps things much more centralized. I'm glad you have a good experience connecting in MSP, but myself and most everyone I know prefer an ATL/DTW layout. Maybe if MSP had relocated to Dakota County back when they could have, they'd have a better layout. Now it's too late for that.


Funny you say that, because most people I know that have connected in MSP have no complaints whatsoever. You have the tram from C to A, you have an overhead walkway from C to G, underground tunnel from C/A to B. When you talk about ops, you don't have the crazy slotting issues that you have in ATL. It's more than just a terminal layout that makes for a better connecting experience in my opinion. I have no issues with DTW except the lack of food options, but MSP is pretty nice.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:24 pm

compensateme wrote:

Lester Robinson genuinely believed it was the most cost effective solution; his accounting staff obviously underestimated the cost of R&M and pursued zealous figures for RON and film permit fees. The decision likely cost him his job. He didn’t deserve it ... Turkia Mullin is probably still cashing checks drawn from our money.

Initally it was proposed the offices would move to the former Marriott (with the top two floors reopening as a mini-hotel), although this was quickly rejected by WCAA over integration logistics. In reality, most simply didn’t want to retain the 1960s-era design. Instead, they proposed moving the offices offsite, citing a much lower buildout cost. But that idea was rejected after they decided they must be onsite, and hence status quo was literally maintained.

Interesting. I didn't recall hearing about the horrible idea to re-purpose the old Marriott. I know for awhile there were proposals to re-purpose the Berry Terminal into the administration offices, but that too seems silly to renovate functionally and physically obsolete spaces.

Unrelated, but both trams are now out of service until April. The final phase of hardware/software upgrades to finish-up work started before the holidays.
 
KarlB737
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:40 pm

klm617 wrote:
Does anyone here besides me remember when DTW had two observation decks on over the C concourse.........


Staying far away from the hub debate I do recall the observation deck over concourse C. I spent many hours up there viewing aircraft including very loud TWA B707s that would taxi right over to that concourse and park on the south side. At that time I can remember more aircraft using the single crosswind runway which would have been 27R-9L today. There was no 21L, 21R or 22R. In other words one main 3-21 and one 9-27. Our family attended the "open house" of that original terminal that had just a gravel parking lot only. This was a big deal then as we had been using YIP for passenger service prior.
 
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tjwgrr
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:37 pm

KarlB737 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Does anyone here besides me remember when DTW had two observation decks on over the C concourse.........


Staying far away from the hub debate I do recall the observation deck over concourse C. I spent many hours up there viewing aircraft including very loud TWA B707s that would taxi right over to that concourse and park on the south side. At that time I can remember more aircraft using the single crosswind runway which would have been 27R-9L today. There was no 21L, 21R or 22R. In other words one main 3-21 and one 9-27. Our family attended the "open house" of that original terminal that had just a gravel parking lot only. This was a big deal then as we had been using YIP for passenger service prior.


Yep- I remember the observation deck over C (Delta & TWA) and the one over E (North Central, Allegheny, and Mohawk.) Concourse E back in the day was a single story, so the observation deck was literally right on top of the action. A second story addition closed the deck above E, but C was on top of the second story and remained open much longer. I too have spent many glorious hours on those decks. There was nothing quite like the hearing the "singing" four engines on those TWA and AA 707s, the whooshing engine air starts of DL's DC-8s, the massive props on NCA's Allison powered CV-580s, and the saturated smell of burning Jet A permeating the air......

Here's a glimpse of concourse C when it was still a single story. The observation deck was closer to the terminal



This photo was probably taken from the E deck:

Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
drdisque
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:55 pm

tjwgrr wrote:
KarlB737 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Does anyone here besides me remember when DTW had two observation decks on over the C concourse.........


Staying far away from the hub debate I do recall the observation deck over concourse C. I spent many hours up there viewing aircraft including very loud TWA B707s that would taxi right over to that concourse and park on the south side. At that time I can remember more aircraft using the single crosswind runway which would have been 27R-9L today. There was no 21L, 21R or 22R. In other words one main 3-21 and one 9-27. Our family attended the "open house" of that original terminal that had just a gravel parking lot only. This was a big deal then as we had been using YIP for passenger service prior.


Yep- I remember the observation deck over C (Delta & TWA) and the one over E (North Central, Allegheny, and Mohawk.) Concourse E back in the day was a single story, so the observation deck was literally right on top of the action. A second story addition closed the deck above E, but C was on top of the second story and remained open much longer. I too have spent many glorious hours on those decks. There was nothing quite like the hearing the "singing" four engines on those TWA and AA 707s, the whooshing engine air starts of DL's DC-8s, the massive props on NCA's Allison powered CV-580s, and the saturated smell of burning Jet A permeating the air......

Here's a glimpse of concourse C when it was still a single story. The observation deck was closer to the terminal



This photo was probably taken from the E deck:



in the lower picture, what concourse is the UA 727 in the background parked at? F? I think we talked last year about how UA was in the Davey Terminal F when it was built, when did they move over to the Smith Terminal? Were they always in A after they moved?
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:47 pm

tjwgrr wrote:
KarlB737 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Does anyone here besides me remember when DTW had two observation decks on over the C concourse.........


Staying far away from the hub debate I do recall the observation deck over concourse C. I spent many hours up there viewing aircraft including very loud TWA B707s that would taxi right over to that concourse and park on the south side. At that time I can remember more aircraft using the single crosswind runway which would have been 27R-9L today. There was no 21L, 21R or 22R. In other words one main 3-21 and one 9-27. Our family attended the "open house" of that original terminal that had just a gravel parking lot only. This was a big deal then as we had been using YIP for passenger service prior.


Yep- I remember the observation deck over C (Delta & TWA) and the one over E (North Central, Allegheny, and Mohawk.) Concourse E back in the day was a single story, so the observation deck was literally right on top of the action. A second story addition closed the deck above E, but C was on top of the second story and remained open much longer. I too have spent many glorious hours on those decks. There was nothing quite like the hearing the "singing" four engines on those TWA and AA 707s, the whooshing engine air starts of DL's DC-8s, the massive props on NCA's Allison powered CV-580s, and the saturated smell of burning Jet A permeating the air......

Here's a glimpse of concourse C when it was still a single story. The observation deck was closer to the terminal



This photo was probably taken from the E deck:



The first picture is on the north side of E not C. Used to love how on the C observation deck Delta had a gate the you could look right down into the cockpit and see inside the passenger cabin from above later New York Air used this gate also
Last edited by klm617 on Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:51 pm

drdisque wrote:
tjwgrr wrote:
KarlB737 wrote:

Staying far away from the hub debate I do recall the observation deck over concourse C. I spent many hours up there viewing aircraft including very loud TWA B707s that would taxi right over to that concourse and park on the south side. At that time I can remember more aircraft using the single crosswind runway which would have been 27R-9L today. There was no 21L, 21R or 22R. In other words one main 3-21 and one 9-27. Our family attended the "open house" of that original terminal that had just a gravel parking lot only. This was a big deal then as we had been using YIP for passenger service prior.


Yep- I remember the observation deck over C (Delta & TWA) and the one over E (North Central, Allegheny, and Mohawk.) Concourse E back in the day was a single story, so the observation deck was literally right on top of the action. A second story addition closed the deck above E, but C was on top of the second story and remained open much longer. I too have spent many glorious hours on those decks. There was nothing quite like the hearing the "singing" four engines on those TWA and AA 707s, the whooshing engine air starts of DL's DC-8s, the massive props on NCA's Allison powered CV-580s, and the saturated smell of burning Jet A permeating the air......

Here's a glimpse of concourse C when it was still a single story. The observation deck was closer to the terminal




This photo was probably taken from the E deck:



in the lower picture, what concourse is the UA 727 in the background parked at? F? I think we talked last year about how UA was in the Davey Terminal F when it was built, when did they move over to the Smith Terminal? Were they always in A after they moved?



The UA 727 is parked at the F gates United and Ozark were at F and USAir was at E. USAIR moved to create space for Republic and United switched with Northwest when they merged with Republic. If you can remember the Northwest international check in in the Davey terminal that's where the Ozark check originally was located and USAir was next to North Central.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
drdisque
Posts: 1058
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:24 pm

klm617 wrote:


The UA 727 is parked at the F gates United and Ozark were at F and USAir was at E. USAIR moved to create space for Republic and United switched with Northwest when they merged with Republic. If you can remember the Northwest international check in in the Davey terminal that's where the Ozark check originally was located and USAir was next to North Central.


Thanks.

Did Piedmont fly to DTW prior to the merger with Allegheny (I'm pretty sure Allegheny did) to form USAir? Where was the Pan Am domestic gate(s)? Did the PA London flight leave from the Berry Terminal or the Smith Terminal? Where was the EA gate(s)? My first memories of the airport are from ~1990 and I rarely went in the Smith Terminal until the late 90s. I was only in the Berry Terminal once in ~1994 for a charter flight.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:26 pm

drdisque wrote:
klm617 wrote:


The UA 727 is parked at the F gates United and Ozark were at F and USAir was at E. USAIR moved to create space for Republic and United switched with Northwest when they merged with Republic. If you can remember the Northwest international check in in the Davey terminal that's where the Ozark check originally was located and USAir was next to North Central.


Thanks.

Did Piedmont fly to DTW prior to the merger with Allegheny (I'm pretty sure Allegheny did) to form USAir? Where was the Pan Am domestic gate(s)? Did the PA London flight leave from the Berry Terminal or the Smith Terminal? Where was the EA gate(s)? My first memories of the airport are from ~1990 and I rarely went in the Smith Terminal until the late 90s. I was only in the Berry Terminal once in ~1994 for a charter flight.


Pan Am checkin and gates were all at the Bery terminal along with BA,CP,FI,SN,TZ and PE

Eastern Checkin was at the Smith Terminal and flights departed from D and I then later B when Northwest took over everything from C to F

Yes Piedmont started DTW around 1984 and served BWI, CLT and DAY from Detroit out of the Smith terminal using the B gates.

Alleghany had already changed it's name to USAir when it merged with Piedmont.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:13 pm

klm617 wrote:
drdisque wrote:
klm617 wrote:


The UA 727 is parked at the F gates United and Ozark were at F and USAir was at E. USAIR moved to create space for Republic and United switched with Northwest when they merged with Republic. If you can remember the Northwest international check in in the Davey terminal that's where the Ozark check originally was located and USAir was next to North Central.


Thanks.

Did Piedmont fly to DTW prior to the merger with Allegheny (I'm pretty sure Allegheny did) to form USAir? Where was the Pan Am domestic gate(s)? Did the PA London flight leave from the Berry Terminal or the Smith Terminal? Where was the EA gate(s)? My first memories of the airport are from ~1990 and I rarely went in the Smith Terminal until the late 90s. I was only in the Berry Terminal once in ~1994 for a charter flight.


Pan Am checkin and gates were all at the Bery terminal along with BA,CP,FI,SN,TZ and PE

Eastern Checkin was at the Smith Terminal and flights departed from D and I then later B when Northwest took over everything from C to F

Yes Piedmont started DTW around 1984 and served BWI, CLT and DAY from Detroit out of the Smith terminal using the B gates.

Alleghany had already changed it's name to USAir when it merged with Piedmont.


To elaborate, EA’s gates were in Concourse D until the mid-1980s, when RC swapped some ORD gates with AA for some gates on Concourse B. These gates were then traded for EA’s on Concourse D. They were later jointly used with CO, then just CO itself after EA went bust, then CO and HP, then HP and US and finally just US.

When US moved into the HP gates, they removed the ancient, non-functioning CRT arrival/departure displays, but left the cages they had dangeled from within. Somebody posted a picture on here years ago showing the EA logo within the cages.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:43 pm

F9 added LAS, 3x weekly A320.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:27 am

flymco753 wrote:
F9 added LAS, 3x weekly A320.


Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday during the summer stretch:

07:30AM LAS DTW 02:30PM
03:20PM DTW LAS 04:55PM

Here today, gone tomorrow. Some good introductory fares ($44 on Tuesday, $69 on Sunday / Thursday, available throughout the summer), but the flight times stink (if you’re sober at 7:30AM on a Sunday morning in Las Vegas, might as well had went to Disneyland).

DL will operate then route 6x daily, with all flights on the 321; except on Saturday, when it’s 5x (739, 3x321, 753). NK will be on it 3x daily (2x320, 321). WN’s going to Saturday-only on the 73G.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:35 am

compensateme wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
F9 added LAS, 3x weekly A320.


Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday during the summer stretch:

07:30AM LAS DTW 02:30PM
03:20PM DTW LAS 04:55PM

Here today, gone tomorrow. Some good introductory fares ($44 on Tuesday, $69 on Sunday / Thursday, available throughout the summer), but the flight times stink (if you’re sober at 7:30AM on a Sunday morning in Las Vegas, might as well had went to Disneyland).

DL will operate then route 6x daily, with all flights on the 321; except on Saturday, when it’s 5x (739, 3x321, 753). NK will be on it 3x daily (2x320, 321). WN’s going to Saturday-only on the 73G.
They probably added it because of those surplus WN pax. They figured they could try to capture some.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:56 am

flymco753 wrote:
compensateme wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
F9 added LAS, 3x weekly A320.


Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday during the summer stretch:

07:30AM LAS DTW 02:30PM
03:20PM DTW LAS 04:55PM

Here today, gone tomorrow. Some good introductory fares ($44 on Tuesday, $69 on Sunday / Thursday, available throughout the summer), but the flight times stink (if you’re sober at 7:30AM on a Sunday morning in Las Vegas, might as well had went to Disneyland).

DL will operate then route 6x daily, with all flights on the 321; except on Saturday, when it’s 5x (739, 3x321, 753). NK will be on it 3x daily (2x320, 321). WN’s going to Saturday-only on the 73G.
They probably added it because of those surplus WN pax. They figured they could try to capture some.


Tossing out outlier week’s (holidays), DL and NK are planning an average daily increase of nearly 131 seats during the summer stretch — nearly good enough to negate the loss of WN’s 143 seats. Subject to change of course. WN, though, caters to a different clientele and carried a significant number of passengers beyond LAS.

Most likely, F9 is throwing darts and hoping one strikes oil.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:30 am

compensateme wrote:
klm617 wrote:
drdisque wrote:

Thanks.

Did Piedmont fly to DTW prior to the merger with Allegheny (I'm pretty sure Allegheny did) to form USAir? Where was the Pan Am domestic gate(s)? Did the PA London flight leave from the Berry Terminal or the Smith Terminal? Where was the EA gate(s)? My first memories of the airport are from ~1990 and I rarely went in the Smith Terminal until the late 90s. I was only in the Berry Terminal once in ~1994 for a charter flight.


Pan Am checkin and gates were all at the Bery terminal along with BA,CP,FI,SN,TZ and PE

Eastern Checkin was at the Smith Terminal and flights departed from D and I then later B when Northwest took over everything from C to F

Yes Piedmont started DTW around 1984 and served BWI, CLT and DAY from Detroit out of the Smith terminal using the B gates.




Alleghany had already changed it's name to USAir when it merged with Piedmont.


To elaborate, EA’s gates were in Concourse D until the mid-1980s, when RC swapped some ORD gates with AA for some gates on Concourse B. These gates were then traded for EA’s on Concourse D. They were later jointly used with CO, then just CO itself after EA went bust, then CO and HP, then HP and US and finally just US.

When US moved into the HP gates, they removed the ancient, non-functioning CRT arrival/departure displays, but left the cages they had dangeled from within. Somebody posted a picture on here years ago showing the EA logo within the cages.


Interesting how that played out did not know that.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
dtw107
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:51 am

Fargo wrote:
compensateme wrote:
Reality is, Midfield is such a large and underutilized terminal that it’s hard to notice even a significant increase in activity.


I agree the midfield is underutilized, but I'm curious to know your thoughts. Could you expound a bit more on why you think it is so?

Never understood why DL only has 450 or so flights out of DTW, should be closer to 600 with more connecting flows.


I glanced at future plans, not really sure what the goal is with the future of Midfield. They close 30%of Concourse C, yet in their Master Plan they want to make it larger. They also want to expand B possibly along with checkpoint changes also.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:30 am

dtw107 wrote:
Fargo wrote:
compensateme wrote:
Reality is, Midfield is such a large and underutilized terminal that it’s hard to notice even a significant increase in activity.


I agree the midfield is underutilized, but I'm curious to know your thoughts. Could you expound a bit more on why you think it is so?

Never understood why DL only has 450 or so flights out of DTW, should be closer to 600 with more connecting flows.


I glanced at future plans, not really sure what the goal is with the future of Midfield. They close 30%of Concourse C, yet in their Master Plan they want to make it larger. They also want to expand B possibly along with checkpoint changes also.

The master plan is a planning document that is required to be updated every few years by the FAA and is used to guide airport development, budgeting, and short/medium/long-term planning.
It is not a list of approved, funded, go-forward projects. Instead it is used as a planning document that looks at multiple future forecast scenarios, develops baseline forecast models, and then applies them to various elements of airport infrastructure to determine future capacity requirements.

The master plan indicates here is no need for any additional gates in the 20-year planning horizon at the McNamera terminal. What it does indicate is that the allocation of appropriately sized gates will likely change in the future, but that can be accommodating through re-sizing the existing gate infrastructure. In 2015, DL decided to close 16 gates at the north end of Concourse C that were no longer necessary with the reduction of SF3 & CRJ flying, upgauging to larger equipment, and a cooresponding reduction in frequency on smaller-gauge aircraft. DL initially expressed a potential option to raze the end of C, but the airport strongly disagreed. They did end up expanding the RON parking area by filling in the grass area north of Concourse C.

As a part of the master plan, they developed planning options to reconfigure Concourse C to accomodate larger aircraft - all CR9/717 sized aircraft, should the future need arise. The options basically include reducing the number of gates overall to fit larger aircraft parking, and expanding hold rooms by filling in the nodes between each gate pod. The costs to redesign Concourse C were roughly $90-120 M estimates. Again this is a long-term planning option, if the need were to exist but there is no current need to do so. Instead, DL has recently configured most of the remaining gates where it was possible on Concourse C on the east side to fit CR7/CR9 aircraft. There are still many gates that can only accomodate CR2s, including most of not all of the ground-level gates C1-C8

There is no design option or plans to do any further expansion to Concourse B. Most gates on B are currently spaced to accommodate up to A320/738 sized aircraft if they ever had to, and some did back in the days when CO and PMDL operated out of B.

There is no near-term plans to expand the security screening checkpoints at the McNamera, however design options were developed since it may be required in the future to expand the checkpoint area to accommodate larger, automated screening equipment. The options there include some combination of removing the center check-in counters and/or in-filling the balcony area behind the check-in counters post-security at the top of the escalators. Again there are no firm plans to make any changes at this time. Frankly, any further need in the future could be accomodated by increasing stafffing and/or opening more checkpoints during peak hours.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 7268
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:36 am

compensateme wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
F9 added LAS, 3x weekly A320.


Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday during the summer stretch:

07:30AM LAS DTW 02:30PM
03:20PM DTW LAS 04:55PM

Here today, gone tomorrow. Some good introductory fares ($44 on Tuesday, $69 on Sunday / Thursday, available throughout the summer), but the flight times stink (if you’re sober at 7:30AM on a Sunday morning in Las Vegas, might as well had went to Disneyland).

DL will operate then route 6x daily, with all flights on the 321; except on Saturday, when it’s 5x (739, 3x321, 753). NK will be on it 3x daily (2x320, 321). WN’s going to Saturday-only on the 73G.

Lol. Maybe they are going after the crowd that stays out all night and goes directly to the airport and forgoes an extra night's hotel stay? Not my thing, but I know people who do that, particularly some of what my buddies who live in places like DEN, SFO, PHX used to do a decade ago when we could actually handle a bender like that.

Any flight back from LAS on a Sunday, most people are looking pretty rough.

F9 will probably have better luck than some of their other dartboard routes, like DTW-ISP.
 
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flymco753
Posts: 3253
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:57 pm

I see LAS in the same realm as MCO, although MCO isn't only people visiting the parks, but family as well. I don't see there being that many transplants in Vegas that would be from that area of Michigan, Canada, or Ohio. Maybe the rationale behind it is to do leisure routes from DTW, although they would've done TPA by now if that were the case.

Last summer after ISP ended, F9s schedule looked like this in terms of weekly flights:
DEN 7x
MCO 4x
TTN 4x
RDU 3x
AUS 2x

This coming summer it'll be:
DEN 7x
MCO 4x
AUS 4x
RDU 4x
LAS 3x
TTN 3x

I still think they're capable of doing TPA & SRQ during the winter and SAT during the summer,
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
klm617
Posts: 4339
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:44 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
compensateme wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
F9 added LAS, 3x weekly A320.


Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday during the summer stretch:

07:30AM LAS DTW 02:30PM
03:20PM DTW LAS 04:55PM

Here today, gone tomorrow. Some good introductory fares ($44 on Tuesday, $69 on Sunday / Thursday, available throughout the summer), but the flight times stink (if you’re sober at 7:30AM on a Sunday morning in Las Vegas, might as well had went to Disneyland).

DL will operate then route 6x daily, with all flights on the 321; except on Saturday, when it’s 5x (739, 3x321, 753). NK will be on it 3x daily (2x320, 321). WN’s going to Saturday-only on the 73G.

Lol. Maybe they are going after the crowd that stays out all night and goes directly to the airport and forgoes an extra night's hotel stay? Not my thing, but I know people who do that, particularly some of what my buddies who live in places like DEN, SFO, PHX used to do a decade ago when we could actually handle a bender like that.

Any flight back from LAS on a Sunday, most people are looking pretty rough.

F9 will probably have better luck than some of their other dartboard routes, like DTW-ISP.


While it's nice they give Detroit a node seems kind of odd to me to go up against DL and NK with pretty convenient schedules they have not to mention the backwards flight times. This flight should leave DTW at like 0730 and return back from LAS at 1100am. Even a redeye from LAS would have been better with a morning return from Detroit and only 3 weekly. This kind of flight with it's flight times would have been better suited for Flint rather than Detroit but we'll see how it works out.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:12 pm

Quite a few international capacity decreases for S19 including the significant drawdown of the A330. I'll compare.

TATL:
LHR '18: 2x 332 - LHR '19: 1x 76W, 1x 332
CDG '18: 1x 76W, 1x 332, 1x 777 - CDG '19: 2x 76W, 1x 789
AMS '18: 1x 359, 3x 333 - AMS '19: 1x 359, 3x 333
FRA '18: 1x 76W - FRA '19: 1x 76W
MUC '18: 1x 76W - MUC '19: 1x 76W
FCO '18: 1x 333 - FCO '19: 1x 76W

Asia capacity remains the same aside from an increase in NGO frequency, South America service is gone, and no service to Africa, Australia, or the Middle East will ever cross anyone's mind for Delta.

RJ seems to have permanently adjusted AMM to an evening departure and arrival shortly after LH leaves.

Here's a harsh reality, nobody is ever going to consider flying to Africa or Australia from DTW, lets leave those two continents off the table for good. The only remote possibility of additional Middle East service is going to be EK in which they can serve India. We're still talking 5 to 10 years before that could even come in the picture.

DTW is most likely in line for some new Europe flights, KEF traffic has doubled since service began, which has tripled since 2016. DUB should be in the lineup of stuff to see soon. BCN is hard, there's not a lot of premium traffic, I don't expect it or MAD any time soon. The only other remote possibility for a new European city will have to be DUS, even then it'll be very summer seasonal. Lets face the fact that BA isn't coming, LOT has no interest, and the amount of travel between DTW and MAN is considered "laughable" compared to MCO or NYC.

I imagine some Central and South America service could be possible, SJO is a pretty decent vacation destination. Perhaps that can come soon on a 757 seasonally. Expanded MBJ & PUJ service is likely. Would like to see someone get into STT or SXM. As for South America, the only possibility I see is DL starting BOG because they can use a 75W. Anything else is way too small for a 76W or 339 type aircraft. No South American carrier is going to want to touch DTW soil in terms of regularly scheduled flights.

Harsh reality that we as fanboys (like myself) or residents have to deal with, there's not really anywhere else to go. There's a huge cement wall in the way and that makes someones job marketing the airport probably 50x harder than it's supposed to be.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
klm617
Posts: 4339
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:34 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Quite a few international capacity decreases for S19 including the significant drawdown of the A330. I'll compare.

TATL:
LHR '18: 2x 332 - LHR '19: 1x 76W, 1x 332
CDG '18: 1x 76W, 1x 332, 1x 777 - CDG '19: 2x 76W, 1x 789
AMS '18: 1x 359, 3x 333 - AMS '19: 1x 359, 3x 333
FRA '18: 1x 76W - FRA '19: 1x 76W
MUC '18: 1x 76W - MUC '19: 1x 76W
FCO '18: 1x 333 - FCO '19: 1x 76W

Asia capacity remains the same aside from an increase in NGO frequency, South America service is gone, and no service to Africa, Australia, or the Middle East will ever cross anyone's mind for Delta.

RJ seems to have permanently adjusted AMM to an evening departure and arrival shortly after LH leaves.

Here's a harsh reality, nobody is ever going to consider flying to Africa or Australia from DTW, lets leave those two continents off the table for good. The only remote possibility of additional Middle East service is going to be EK in which they can serve India. We're still talking 5 to 10 years before that could even come in the picture.

DTW is most likely in line for some new Europe flights, KEF traffic has doubled since service began, which has tripled since 2016. DUB should be in the lineup of stuff to see soon. BCN is hard, there's not a lot of premium traffic, I don't expect it or MAD any time soon. The only other remote possibility for a new European city will have to be DUS, even then it'll be very summer seasonal. Lets face the fact that BA isn't coming, LOT has no interest, and the amount of travel between DTW and MAN is considered "laughable" compared to MCO or NYC.

I imagine some Central and South America service could be possible, SJO is a pretty decent vacation destination. Perhaps that can come soon on a 757 seasonally. Expanded MBJ & PUJ service is likely. Would like to see someone get into STT or SXM. As for South America, the only possibility I see is DL starting BOG because they can use a 75W. Anything else is way too small for a 76W or 339 type aircraft. No South American carrier is going to want to touch DTW soil in terms of regularly scheduled flights.

Harsh reality that we as fanboys (like myself) or residents have to deal with, there's not really anywhere else to go. There's a huge cement wall in the way and that makes someones job marketing the airport probably 50x harder than it's supposed to be.


Not really a big deal in my eyes purse but at least now we know what they are doing as far as keeping capacity flat even though they added the 4 extra weekly flights to London. As long as the flights don't get cut and I don't see this as an action of really shifting traffic away from Detroit just practicing near zero capacity growth at DTW. Always thought the 333 was a bit big for DTW-FCO and if the smaller gauge lengths the operational season that's a good thing too. MAN should surely be the next add for Delta out of Detroit. I also believe that once things get cleared up at WOW that DTW will see added frequency on DTW-KEF wouldn't surprise me to see it go daily. Of course first and formost the WCAA should be pulling out all the stops to get EI here. I think that DUS is to easily accessible from FRA by train so that would kind of eats away at the FRA loads if anything a Eurowings flight to DUS maybe 2 or 3 times a week would be best. As far as MAN goes it would be about connections not actual DTW-MAN O/D traffic and can be done easily with a 757 so not really much risk there. O/D between DTW-KEF was minimal to until WOW stepped in. We should also be in line for an ME3 carrier which the airport is grossly dropping the ball on as the DTW India traffic increases by the day.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
kavok
Posts: 557
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:29 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Quite a few international capacity decreases for S19 including the significant drawdown of the A330. I'll compare.

TATL:
LHR '18: 2x 332 - LHR '19: 1x 76W, 1x 332
CDG '18: 1x 76W, 1x 332, 1x 777 - CDG '19: 2x 76W, 1x 789
AMS '18: 1x 359, 3x 333 - AMS '19: 1x 359, 3x 333
FRA '18: 1x 76W - FRA '19: 1x 76W
MUC '18: 1x 76W - MUC '19: 1x 76W
FCO '18: 1x 333 - FCO '19: 1x 76W

Asia capacity remains the same aside from an increase in NGO frequency, South America service is gone, and no service to Africa, Australia, or the Middle East will ever cross anyone's mind for Delta.

RJ seems to have permanently adjusted AMM to an evening departure and arrival shortly after LH leaves.

Here's a harsh reality, nobody is ever going to consider flying to Africa or Australia from DTW, lets leave those two continents off the table for good. The only remote possibility of additional Middle East service is going to be EK in which they can serve India. We're still talking 5 to 10 years before that could even come in the picture.

DTW is most likely in line for some new Europe flights, KEF traffic has doubled since service began, which has tripled since 2016. DUB should be in the lineup of stuff to see soon. BCN is hard, there's not a lot of premium traffic, I don't expect it or MAD any time soon. The only other remote possibility for a new European city will have to be DUS, even then it'll be very summer seasonal. Lets face the fact that BA isn't coming, LOT has no interest, and the amount of travel between DTW and MAN is considered "laughable" compared to MCO or NYC.

I imagine some Central and South America service could be possible, SJO is a pretty decent vacation destination. Perhaps that can come soon on a 757 seasonally. Expanded MBJ & PUJ service is likely. Would like to see someone get into STT or SXM. As for South America, the only possibility I see is DL starting BOG because they can use a 75W. Anything else is way too small for a 76W or 339 type aircraft. No South American carrier is going to want to touch DTW soil in terms of regularly scheduled flights.

Harsh reality that we as fanboys (like myself) or residents have to deal with, there's not really anywhere else to go. There's a huge cement wall in the way and that makes someones job marketing the airport probably 50x harder than it's supposed to be.


Interesting post, and thanks for putting the data together.

At some point, I think we have to also acknowledge that TATL adds to midsize US markets over the last few years by everyone ( not just DL) is going to have some, albeit minor, impact in reducing the number of TATL connections being made at DTW.

And yes, much of that traffic is made up of new growth at the new midsize market, or connections being pulled from elsewhere, but part of it (even if the percentage is small) is being made up of pax who would have connected in DTW. And as such, there is a slight reduction at DTW.

What would be interesting to know, is that if a recession happens or if some of the TATL adds don’t survive, does DTW gain those connecting pax back if their direct flight is dropped? And what impact does that have on DLs TATL capacity from DTW?
 
reasonable
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:35 pm

Is GRU still returning in the fall? I thought this was a temporary suspension.
 
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tjwgrr
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:18 pm

klm617 wrote:
tjwgrr wrote:
Here's a glimpse of concourse E when it was still a single story. The observation deck was closer to the terminal



This photo was probably taken from the E deck:



The first picture is on the north side of E not C. Used to love how on the C observation deck Delta had a gate the you could look right down into the cockpit and see inside the passenger cabin from above later New York Air used this gate also

.
.
Yes, my bad, I meant E, typed C.
.
.
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
dtw107
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:26 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:50 pm

klm617 wrote:
N292UX wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Flying out of DTW this morning, noticed they have started putting up a construction barrier and fencing around the airside of the Smith terminal and the old concourse B. The beginning of the end for the old terminal is getting closer.

That's a shame. I have a lot of memories of flying NW DC9/A320/757s into DTW and would always taxi by the Smith terminals and see airlines like NK, UA, US, FL, US300, and many other airlines parked there. It was always an amazing sight to me. Will be a shame to see it go.

What is the future plans for that space? RON Parking? Offices? New terminal?


It is very sad to see that terminal go as I spent many many hours there as a kid collecting airline times and sitting in the end of the A concourse watching planes come and go when the departures and the arrivals came from the south. Does anyone here besides me remember when DTW had two observation decks on over the C concourse and one on the E concourse. I also remember before there was an international terminal when D was used for domestic charters watched an ONA DC10 taxi in there from the observation platform above the E gates. But time moves on from what was arguably the most glorious time in commercial aviation.



The fourm should put together a album where everybody can submit photos of the old terminals and planes at the terminals. It is a bummer and a good thing that the Smith is being torn down. It holds a lot of history, but it has been there far too long.
 
N292UX
Posts: 413
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:08 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:05 am

Speaking of old terminals, does anyone have any shots of the Davey Terminal Interior? There's plenty of images online of the Smith Terminal's interior, but I can't seem to find any old ones from the Davey Terminal.
 
dtw107
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:26 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:13 am

N292UX wrote:
Speaking of old terminals, does anyone have any shots of the Davey Terminal Interior? There's plenty of images online of the Smith Terminal's interior, but I can't seem to find any old ones from the Davey Terminal.


I have tried, I have found a few, but they are not very good.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:39 am

dtw107 wrote:
N292UX wrote:
Speaking of old terminals, does anyone have any shots of the Davey Terminal Interior? There's plenty of images online of the Smith Terminal's interior, but I can't seem to find any old ones from the Davey Terminal.


I have tried, I have found a few, but they are not very good.
Someone posted some good ones in last years thread. My memory is starting to become vague instead of vivid. I can vividly remember the Smith though, the Davey is getting very hard to remember since I was younger during the time it was open.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:31 am

reasonable wrote:
Is GRU still returning in the fall? I thought this was a temporary suspension.

It’ll be back in the fall.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 7268
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:25 am

Here are some link that contain some older pictures of DTW, some of the Davey in a few places.
Paging compensateme, who I think posted several relics of the past buried somewhere in the 2018 DTW thread.

Credit to the various posters who found or sited this stuff in previous posts:

Compensateme:
Here’s a video of DTW from 1992 that somebody posted on YouTube several years ago, although it only has a couple hundred views:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aGIr-zk_0Qc

Unfortunately, most of the video is spent driving around the airport and focuses on the heavies but it does provide an exterior view of the Davey Terminal, as well as a glimpse of the connecting cooridors.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PpGiu9U35MQ
Another video from 1992, doesn’t show much but you can catch a glimpse of the vintage gate areas NW used before remodeling to the electronic gate signs circa 1994.

.....

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtop ... #p20573775

.....
beerbus:
See this URL for some great photos of the demolition of Concourse C-G.

Contains some nice photos of "bowling shoe" liveried whales and 10's

http://nadc1.com/project/detroit-metrop ... y-airport/

....
http://www.waterwinterwonderland.com/airports.aspx

.....
Compensateme:

Concourse G photos:
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtop ... #p19771619

....

This guy's flickr feed has several vintage photos of the Smith, Davey, and Berry terminals:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] ... otostream/

There aren't a ton in a single common source, but searching around the internet can yield some people's old photos/posts.
 
NCAD95
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:11 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:45 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Here are some link that contain some older pictures of DTW, some of the Davey in a few places.
Paging compensateme, who I think posted several relics of the past buried somewhere in the 2018 DTW thread.

Credit to the various posters who found or sited this stuff in previous posts:

Compensateme:
Here’s a video of DTW from 1992 that somebody posted on YouTube several years ago, although it only has a couple hundred views:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aGIr-zk_0Qc

Unfortunately, most of the video is spent driving around the airport and focuses on the heavies but it does provide an exterior view of the Davey Terminal, as well as a glimpse of the connecting cooridors.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PpGiu9U35MQ
Another video from 1992, doesn’t show much but you can catch a glimpse of the vintage gate areas NW used before remodeling to the electronic gate signs circa 1994.

.....

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtop ... #p20573775

.....
beerbus:
See this URL for some great photos of the demolition of Concourse C-G.

Contains some nice photos of "bowling shoe" liveried whales and 10's

http://nadc1.com/project/detroit-metrop ... y-airport/

....
http://www.waterwinterwonderland.com/airports.aspx

.....
Compensateme:

Concourse G photos:
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtop ... #p19771619

....

This guy's flickr feed has several vintage photos of the Smith, Davey, and Berry terminals:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] ... otostream/

There aren't a ton in a single common source, but searching around the internet can yield some people's old photos/posts.



I love that last link. Wish I had taken more images inside of the terminal than I did. Always loved the huge North Central DC-9 mural on the wall behind their ticket counter in the Davey Terminal.
 
User avatar
flymco753
Posts: 3253
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:53 pm

F9 upgauged some of the RSW flights to the A321 for the remainder of the winter. MCO sees a mix of A320/A321. Weird how they rotate the aircraft.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
dtw107
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:26 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:00 am

NCAD95 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Here are some link that contain some older pictures of DTW, some of the Davey in a few places.
Paging compensateme, who I think posted several relics of the past buried somewhere in the 2018 DTW thread.

Credit to the various posters who found or sited this stuff in previous posts:

Compensateme:
Here’s a video of DTW from 1992 that somebody posted on YouTube several years ago, although it only has a couple hundred views:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aGIr-zk_0Qc

Unfortunately, most of the video is spent driving around the airport and focuses on the heavies but it does provide an exterior view of the Davey Terminal, as well as a glimpse of the connecting cooridors.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PpGiu9U35MQ
Another video from 1992, doesn’t show much but you can catch a glimpse of the vintage gate areas NW used before remodeling to the electronic gate signs circa 1994.

.....

viewtopic.php?t=1382387&start=1150#p20573775

.....
beerbus:
See this URL for some great photos of the demolition of Concourse C-G.

Contains some nice photos of "bowling shoe" liveried whales and 10's

http://nadc1.com/project/detroit-metrop ... y-airport/

....
http://www.waterwinterwonderland.com/airports.aspx

.....
Compensateme:

Concourse G photos:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1355717&start=1050#p19771619

....

This guy's flickr feed has several vintage photos of the Smith, Davey, and Berry terminals:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] ... otostream/

There aren't a ton in a single common source, but searching around the internet can yield some people's old photos/posts.



I love that last link. Wish I had taken more images inside of the terminal than I did. Always loved the huge North Central DC-9 mural on the wall behind their ticket counter in the Davey Terminal.


I hope somebody has a stash of photos somewhere of the place. Even though it was a dump, it had some character. I had so many childhood memories there and many hellos and goodbyes. It certainly was an interesting building.
 
dtw107
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:26 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:23 am

On a side note, vote for DTW on the top ten list for dining and shopping https://www.10best.com/awards/travel/
 
klm617
Posts: 4339
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:12 am

I want to share this article from for years ago which talks about the direction the airport wants to go in when attracting new traffic at DTW and there are very few article about what the airport is doing as far as growth. In the article it stats that the Detroit India traffic is 120 passengers a day four years ago. Now we are in 2019 so that number has to have grown since then and it doesn't include leakage and we can only suspect what the number might be when we include those who drive to Chicago to get a better fare or more direct flight. My question is why four years later are we still without an ME3 carrier surely 5 weekly on a QR 787 is doable with those kinds of numbers not to mention those traveling from Detroit to Pakistan and Bangladesh. It just perplexes me that this airport is at a virtual stand still when it comes to adding new links when other airports of similar size seem to be able to attract carrier and service and a far greater rate than Detroit even with hub carriers.

https://www.anna.aero/2015/03/03/detroi ... elopments/
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
Posts: 4339
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:18 am

dtw107 wrote:
NCAD95 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Here are some link that contain some older pictures of DTW, some of the Davey in a few places.
Paging compensateme, who I think posted several relics of the past buried somewhere in the 2018 DTW thread.

Credit to the various posters who found or sited this stuff in previous posts:

Compensateme:
Here’s a video of DTW from 1992 that somebody posted on YouTube several years ago, although it only has a couple hundred views:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aGIr-zk_0Qc

Unfortunately, most of the video is spent driving around the airport and focuses on the heavies but it does provide an exterior view of the Davey Terminal, as well as a glimpse of the connecting cooridors.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PpGiu9U35MQ
Another video from 1992, doesn’t show much but you can catch a glimpse of the vintage gate areas NW used before remodeling to the electronic gate signs circa 1994.

.....

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtop ... #p20573775

.....
beerbus:
See this URL for some great photos of the demolition of Concourse C-G.

Contains some nice photos of "bowling shoe" liveried whales and 10's

http://nadc1.com/project/detroit-metrop ... y-airport/

....
http://www.waterwinterwonderland.com/airports.aspx

.....
Compensateme:

Concourse G photos:
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtop ... #p19771619

....

This guy's flickr feed has several vintage photos of the Smith, Davey, and Berry terminals:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] ... otostream/

There aren't a ton in a single common source, but searching around the internet can yield some people's old photos/posts.



I love that last link. Wish I had taken more images inside of the terminal than I did. Always loved the huge North Central DC-9 mural on the wall behind their ticket counter in the Davey Terminal.


I hope somebody has a stash of photos somewhere of the place. Even though it was a dump, it had some character. I had so many childhood memories there and many hellos and goodbyes. It certainly was an interesting building.


I was not a dump when it was first conceived it was a pretty cool terminal back in the 60's and 70's
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
User avatar
stl07
Posts: 1518
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:21 am

klm617 wrote:
I want to share this article from for years ago which talks about the direction the airport wants to go in when attracting new traffic at DTW and there are very few article about what the airport is doing as far as growth. In the article it stats that the Detroit India traffic is 120 passengers a day four years ago. Now we are in 2019 so that number has to have grown since then and it doesn't include leakage and we can only suspect what the number might be when we include those who drive to Chicago to get a better fare or more direct flight. My question is why four years later are we still without an ME3 carrier surely 5 weekly on a QR 787 is doable with those kinds of numbers not to mention those traveling from Detroit to Pakistan and Bangladesh. It just perplexes me that this airport is at a virtual stand still when it comes to adding new links when other airports of similar size seem to be able to attract carrier and service and a far greater rate than Detroit even with hub carriers.

https://www.anna.aero/2015/03/03/detroi ... elopments/

What's the point though? DTW has something even rarer, RJ, which covers all of the middle east including Qatar AND Isreal (very uncommon)
The big Indian subcontinent cities and African cities are covered via European connections, so the only exclusive traffic the ME3 would get are 2ndary Indian subcontinent and African cities, and that doesn't seem to be worth starting a flight for as a priority, even though their could be a business case for it. However, as these carriers grow, it may become a matter of when not if.
Interesting how every thread is spammed with "bring back paid membership, there are too many spammers"
 
klm617
Posts: 4339
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:40 am

stl07 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
I want to share this article from for years ago which talks about the direction the airport wants to go in when attracting new traffic at DTW and there are very few article about what the airport is doing as far as growth. In the article it stats that the Detroit India traffic is 120 passengers a day four years ago. Now we are in 2019 so that number has to have grown since then and it doesn't include leakage and we can only suspect what the number might be when we include those who drive to Chicago to get a better fare or more direct flight. My question is why four years later are we still without an ME3 carrier surely 5 weekly on a QR 787 is doable with those kinds of numbers not to mention those traveling from Detroit to Pakistan and Bangladesh. It just perplexes me that this airport is at a virtual stand still when it comes to adding new links when other airports of similar size seem to be able to attract carrier and service and a far greater rate than Detroit even with hub carriers.

https://www.anna.aero/2015/03/03/detroi ... elopments/

What's the point though? DTW has something even rarer, RJ, which covers all of the middle east including Qatar AND Isreal (very uncommon)
The big Indian subcontinent cities and African cities are covered via European connections, so the only exclusive traffic the ME3 would get are 2ndary Indian subcontinent and African cities, and that doesn't seem to be worth starting a flight for as a priority, even though their could be a business case for it. However, as these carriers grow, it may become a matter of when not if.


What's the point of any new service to grow and add diversity to the market. Why should Detroit passenger be flowed over Boston and stimulate the Boston market when we have a market of our own to India. I assure you that once a ME3 carrier enters Detroit you will see the market grow even further as DTW will then be able to recapture some of the leakage to Chicago. Detroit lacks direct service to India for the cost conscious traveler and that's lost revenue for the airport. What's the point at piling on in BOS, ORD and NYC in markets that are already over saturated with low fare capacity. Look at what WOW Air has done to stimulate the DTW-KEF market.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
dtw107
Posts: 12
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:05 am

klm617 wrote:
dtw107 wrote:
NCAD95 wrote:


I love that last link. Wish I had taken more images inside of the terminal than I did. Always loved the huge North Central DC-9 mural on the wall behind their ticket counter in the Davey Terminal.


I hope somebody has a stash of photos somewhere of the place. Even though it was a dump, it had some character. I had so many childhood memories there and many hellos and goodbyes. It certainly was an interesting building.


I was not a dump when it was first conceived it was a pretty cool terminal back in the 60's and 70's


Yes you are correct, the airport was only a dump until it exploded with passenger traffic. I can see how the architecture could have been a big deal at the time.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:25 pm

Detroit deserves more than Delta Airlines. While not the hometown airline, Atlanta-based Delta is more often than not the only choice out of Detroit Metropolitan Airport.

Sure, there’s some competition — Spirit is Detroit’s second-biggest carrier — but it’s not enough. Business travelers and those flying internationally are often forced to pay double what it costs to fly out of Toronto and Chicago.

For perspective let’s look at a hypothetical trip to London in mid-May. Round-trip, non-stop economy-class airfare on Delta is $1,334, according to a Google Flights search. Flying Delta for the same dates out of Chicago returned an airfare of $671 with a connection in New York. With the $663 savings, I could fly to Chicago and still have plenty of money left to either spend in London or, better yet, save toward a future trip.

Delta’s monopoly in Detroit was guaranteed after the merger with Northwest Airlines 10 years ago.

The monopoly is obvious when you consider the fact that southeastern Michigan is home to one of the largest Middle Eastern communities outside the Middle East. Presumably, this would make Detroit’s airport attractive for Emirates, Qatar or Etihad, the Middle Eastern airlines known for their lavish premium classes of service. Perhaps even Turkish Airlines. Yet, the only option is a Royal Jordanian flight that first stops in Montreal.





When Qatar expanded to Atlanta, Delta responded with vengeance by cutting ties with a community theater that took money from the airport’s newest airline.

Delta only tolerates competition from the likes of American and United, which have their own regional monopolies thanks in part to airline mergers.

The monopolies are also backed up by something called cabotage, a mercantilist federal regulation that denies consumers choice by generally prohibiting a foreign-flagged airline from flying between two U.S. airports. This makes it unlawful to fly Air Canada from Detroit to Boston through Toronto.

More egregiously is the fake news that Delta publishes about the Middle Eastern airlines for purportedly receiving subsidies from their respective governments. Never mind the fact that Delta, American and United have received over $71 billion in government subsidies and crony-capitalist tax breaks since 2000, according to research from 2015.


Despite benefiting from regulation and subsidies Delta didn’t even buy American when it came time to replace the Boeing 747 as its flagship. Instead, it went with European aircraft maker Airbus.

Delta’s hypocrisy is evident in its extensive partnership with China Eastern, an airline owned by the communist Chinese state. Coincidentally, the partnership was expanded around the same time that Delta gutted its presence in Tokyo and ended service to the U.S. territories of Guam and the Northern Marianas as well as the Pacific island of Palau. All three islands are pivotal in a region where Chinese expansion and aggression is on the rise.

Despite all this I continue flying Delta — last year I did over 175,000 miles — because it’s the best major U.S. airline. Detroit’s airport would be better and Delta would be better if consumers had a real choice. Until then, consumers pay the price.

Dennis Lennox is a political commentator and public affairs consultant.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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Alphazone
Posts: 218
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:39 pm

dtw107 wrote:
On a side note, vote for DTW on the top ten list for dining and shopping https://www.10best.com/awards/travel/


You must be joking- there is nowhere good to eat and the duty-free shop "Worlddutyfree" price scanners are nonfunctional and wasted me over 10 minutes.
Spirit of the Northwest People
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:45 pm

dtw107 wrote:
On a side note, vote for DTW on the top ten list for dining and shopping https://www.10best.com/awards/travel/

As a frequent traveler and having visited many of the airports on the list I don't even feel qualified to vote on that silly survey.
Basically all on ammenities I really don't care about or even pay attention to when I travel.
Certainly nothing on the list that even influences my travel or spending habits.

I'm through DTW terminal twice a week and I can barely even remember what the concessions throughout the terminal.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:13 pm

The new dining is horrendous. The only places I could even afford to eat at are Chick-fil-A, Subway, Wendys, and Coney Island Everything else has out of control prices.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
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adamh8297
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:40 pm

klm617 wrote:
What's the point of any new service to grow and add diversity to the market. Why should Detroit passenger be flowed over Boston and stimulate the Boston market when we have a market of our own to India.


O+D from Boston to markets served via DXB is NOT "stimulated" by DTW feed. It may result .. oh wait it just did... in A380 service for BOS since EK's strategy is to feed B6 in BOS/JFK.


klm617 wrote:
Detroit lacks direct service to India for the cost conscious traveler and that's lost revenue for the airport.


Only JFK/EWR/SFO/IAD/ORD have direct service to India. Too bad the airlines have to please Wall Street and not lower prices to allow the airport to make more money.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
alfa164
Posts: 2912
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:55 pm

flymco753 wrote:
The new dining is horrendous. The only places I could even afford to eat at are Chick-fil-A, Subway, Wendys, and Coney Island Everything else has out of control prices.


At least you can find Dr. Pepper now..

:bigthumbsup:
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
winginit
Posts: 2546
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:05 am

klm617 wrote:
For perspective let’s look at a hypothetical trip to London in mid-May. Round-trip, non-stop economy-class airfare on Delta is $1,334, according to a Google Flights search. Flying Delta for the same dates out of Chicago returned an airfare of $671 with a connection in New York. With the $663 savings, I could fly to Chicago and still have plenty of money left to either spend in London or, better yet, save toward a future trip.


I'm not sure I track the point of your comparison above. You're comparing a nonstop flight out of DTW with a one-stop flight out of ORD. You should be comparing one-stop to one-stop if you're trying to make any sort of point.
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