klm617 wrote:

As an avgeek myself I'd like to see KLM take over one of the DTW-AMS flights.

But does that make financial sense?

No, not really. KLM doesn't currently have any operations in DTW, whereas DL has substantial ops in AMS. Keeping these services with DL piggybacks off existing ops more efficiently, and, as it's a metal-neutral JV, that's enough.
However, I agree. Seeing more different tails is always fun.

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:

klm617 wrote:

As an avgeek myself I'd like to see KLM take over one of the DTW-AMS flights.

But does that make financial sense?

No, not really. KLM doesn't currently have any operations in DTW, whereas DL has substantial ops in AMS. Keeping these services with DL piggybacks off existing ops more efficiently, and, as it's a metal-neutral JV, that's enough.
However, I agree. Seeing more different tails is always fun.

KLM had no operations in SLC and MSP until they added flights there so why not Detroit. Every Delta hub now has a KLM flight except SEA and DTW.

DTW is well connected with European hubs, ya more competition would be better, but I would rather see KL expand their India network.

When will AMS slot situation get resolved?

klm617 wrote:

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:

klm617 wrote:

As an avgeek myself I'd like to see KLM take over one of the DTW-AMS flights.

But does that make financial sense?

No, not really. KLM doesn't currently have any operations in DTW, whereas DL has substantial ops in AMS. Keeping these services with DL piggybacks off existing ops more efficiently, and, as it's a metal-neutral JV, that's enough.
However, I agree. Seeing more different tails is always fun.

KLM had no operations in SLC and MSP until they added flights there so why not Detroit. Every Delta hub now has a KLM flight except SEA and DTW.

SLC isn't a long-haul base for DL, and it's a 787 flight (superior economics and performance on this sort of flight).
MSP? That didn't need the 787 it has as opposed to a DL A330, so it's probably a matter of who had slack.

[twoid][/twoid]

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:

klm617 wrote:

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:

But does that make financial sense?

No, not really. KLM doesn't currently have any operations in DTW, whereas DL has substantial ops in AMS. Keeping these services with DL piggybacks off existing ops more efficiently, and, as it's a metal-neutral JV, that's enough.
However, I agree. Seeing more different tails is always fun.

KLM had no operations in SLC and MSP until they added flights there so why not Detroit. Every Delta hub now has a KLM flight except SEA and DTW.

SLC isn't a long-haul base for DL, and it's a 787 flight (superior economics and performance on this sort of flight).
MSP? That didn't need the 787 it has as opposed to a DL A330, so it's probably a matter of who had slack.

They could have just as Easily sent the KLM flight to Detroit. Also now since the GRU flight is gone for the summer why is Delta not going back to 4 daily DTW-AMS the late flight is still not operating on Friday night. Where does that 333 go on Friday nights. It would appear that the Friday night flight was pulled to support the expansion to 4 MSP-AMS flights on Friday night.

There isn’t a reason KL couldn’t operate into DTW. NW/DL have handled all of KL’s ground support at most domestic stations for nearly 30 years.

That said, it doesn’t really matter. Given the JV, KL’s entry into DTW wouldn’t add a new destination, add capacity or promote competition. And let’s be frank - if you’re riding in the back, KL’s product sucks. Most likely, they’d use a cramped, 9-abreast 787 or 10-abreast 777; food/meal service is inferior to DL as is the IFE. I’d go out of my way to stick with DL.

They actually got things out pretty smoothly after some “thinning” of the schudule as of early today everything is completely back to normal.

Like said there is no reason they couldn’t but there are likely multiple operational reasons my it doesn’t make sense. Primarily aircraft availability, tail routing, crew bases/staffing, and contractual requirements of the JV.

Like others, Klm is nothing special and I’d rather fly DL metal.

ORH is loaded on Delta.com starts August 1st. Daily Crj-200 leaving in the evenings arriving back at DTW in the early morning.

That’s 5 routes DL is starting next year, it’s gotta be a record for the airline.

BenflysDTW wrote:

That’s 5 routes DL is starting next year, it’s gotta be a record for the airline.

It was a pretty big year for DL system expansion. That’s a good thing to keep hubs strong.

BenflysDTW wrote:

That’s 5 routes DL is starting next year, it’s gotta be a record for the airline.

Yes but we also lost three CAK, PIA, TUL, with GRU anf HNL in question so it's really pretty much a wash.

I would hold my breath with HNL. It’s srilsrill l 6 months out, and yields are on par with MSP. (870 and up, up from a low of 360) MSP isn’t even loaded for November/December yet, where it resumes.

I do find it odd that CAK was dropped, it was served by the CRJ-900/700 several times a day, along with the 200 at its peak. Might have to do more with the Akron/Canton economy though...

BenflysDTW wrote:

I do find it odd that CAK was dropped, it was served by the CRJ-900/700 several times a day, along with the 200 at its peak. Might have to do more with the Akron/Canton economy though...

Probably has a lot more to do with the LCC consolidating services at CLE; fall enplanements have dropped 60% in six years and 40% in two years. Meanwhile, DL peaked at 5x daily (sans Saturday) DTW-CLE, including 3xCR9 and 2x717 — that’s up from just 3xCRJ five years ago.

What’s surprising about CAK is that DL choose ATL over DTW; one would think that 3-4 daily CRJ to DTW would be more appropriate for the market, as DL’s peers are flying 50-seaters and targeting high yielding business travelers. Especially when DL said CAK hasn’t been profitable.

On DL’s sky magazine for January not one new DL route from DTW is on there! Routes such as IMT-DTW isn’t there, and DTW-RST has yet to be removed.

BenflysDTW wrote:

On DL’s sky magazine for January not one new DL route from DTW is on there! Routes such as IMT-DTW isn’t there, and DTW-RST has yet to be removed.

Yes and it has always bothered me that the DTW terminal map is like 5 pages in kind of odd for what an airlines considers a major hub if you ask me.

compensateme wrote:

BenflysDTW wrote:

I do find it odd that CAK was dropped, it was served by the CRJ-900/700 several times a day, along with the 200 at its peak. Might have to do more with the Akron/Canton economy though...

Probably has a lot more to do with the LCC consolidating services at CLE; fall enplanements have dropped 60% in six years and 40% in two years. Meanwhile, DL peaked at 5x daily (sans Saturday) DTW-CLE, including 3xCR9 and 2x717 — that’s up from just 3xCRJ five years ago.

What’s surprising about CAK is that DL choose ATL over DTW; one would think that 3-4 daily CRJ to DTW would be more appropriate for the market, as DL’s peers are flying 50-seaters and targeting high yielding business travelers. Especially when DL said CAK hasn’t been profitable.

Yes basically Delta has cut themselves off from the premium market at CAK in favor of carrying the low yielding FL traffic because pretty much all of the country is now an out of the way connection out of CAK except FL and the rest of the southeast.

Does anybody know which airline/officials DTW/WCAA is meeting with at Route America 2019 in Quebec City this February?

sumeetc2 wrote:

Does anybody know which airline/officials DTW/WCAA is meeting with at Route America 2019 in Quebec City this February?

I can't imagine there would be two many opportunities to be had for DTW as DTW is a weak market to the Americas. The only thing really lacking is a low cost alternative in the Detroit Mexico market really. Detroit is pretty well service in the premium sector but really lacks options in the low coast end of the spectrum all across the board.

BenflysDTW wrote:

On DL’s sky magazine for January not one new DL route from DTW is on there! Routes such as IMT-DTW isn’t there, and DTW-RST has yet to be removed.

This shouldn't come as a surprise. Given the quantity of inflight magazines that are published and the necessary lead times the route maps that go to print need to be finalized months in advance.

Some good news today - Chemical Bank is acquiring TCF Bank; the merger operations will adapt the TCF Bank name and be based in Detroit. TCF Bank has been looking for a buyer for years; pretty impressive that current Chemical Bank — which basically started out as a brand new, single branch bank named First Michigan a decade ago that went on an acquisition spree (including the legacy Chemical Bank) — was able to pull this off.

TCF And Chemical aren’t huge purchasers of air travel but still significant and, most importantly, will probably grow (the current TCF Bank has been stangnent for years as it shipped itself around). I doubt the guys at the helm are done expanding...

Here are some interesting numbers how Detroit stacks up against other markets when it comes to traffic between DTW and German secondary markets. Detroit could surely handle summer only service to some of these market and I wonder how much the WOW effect has on these numbers now that they have stimulated the market.

.
O&D passenger numbers oneway from Jan to Nov 2018:

BOS
9.881 HAM
8.974 BER
9.103 DUS

ORD
14.323 HAM
10.603 BER
14.108 DUS

DFW
3.665 HAM
2.483 BER
2.973 DUS

DTW
3.845 HAM
6.663 BER
6.080 DUS

IAH
432 HAM
324 BER
387 DUS

LAX
17.328 HAM
16.048 BER
24.685 DUS

MIA
20.412 HAM
13.012 BER

PHL
3.320 HAM
2.189 BER
3.284 DUS

IAD
9.537 HAM
11.410 BER
6.136 DUS

klm617 wrote:

I wonder how much the WOW effect has on these numbers now that they have stimulated the market.

Not sure I'm following that logic given WOW didn't serve HAM in 2018 and only deployed 48 total flights to DUS over the course of the entire year. I guess I could see to some degree Berlin stimulation but if that's the case the helpful stat is showing these figures as they compare to 2017. Even that data would be tough to conclude off of given AirBerlin folded up shop in 2017 so these 2018 figures are the first without AirBerlin in the equation.

Out of curiosity, what is your source for this figures?

klm617 wrote:

sumeetc2 wrote:

Does anybody know which airline/officials DTW/WCAA is meeting with at Route America 2019 in Quebec City this February?

I can't imagine there would be two many opportunities to be had for DTW as DTW is a weak market to the Americas. The only thing really lacking is a low cost alternative in the Detroit Mexico market really. Detroit is pretty well service in the premium sector but really lacks options in the low coast end of the spectrum all across the board.

I wonder if Volaris would give DTW-GDL a try. I'm not too familiar with the population demographics of the Detroit area, so I don't know if the point of sale would be greater in DTW or GDL.

I know that in the PNW, there are significant ties between PDX/SEA and GDL, and a strong population of people from the Jalisco region. I'm not sure if the Detroit area could have a similar advantage like that or not. Volaris did recently say that they want to add more U.S. cities to their route network--maybe DTW has a chance of being there somewhere.

The obvious obstacle to get around would be dealing with lower yields due to a strong DL/AM presence on the DTW-Mexico markets.

In terms of DTW having "a lack of options in the low cost end of the spectrum all across the board", doesn't NK have a strong presence at DTW?

No, Detroit doesn't have a home-town ULCC airline like MSP does with SY, but NK does fly to many popular destinations from DTW, and has very likely put at least some pressure on DL's yields at DTW.

FA9295 wrote:

In terms of DTW having "a lack of options in the low cost end of the spectrum all across the board", doesn't NK have a strong presence at DTW?

No, Detroit doesn't have a home-town ULCC airline like MSP does with SY, but NK does fly to many popular destinations from DTW, and has very likely put at least some pressure on DL's yields at DTW.

You are correct we do have Spirit. I had asked earlier up for a capacity comparison between SY at MSP and NK at DTW just to see exactly how much pressure there is. But unlike SY at MSP NK has no where that level of commitment to link DTW up as SY in MSP.

nomorerjs wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Here are some interesting numbers how Detroit stacks up against other markets when it comes to traffic between DTW and German secondary markets. Detroit could surely handle summer only service to some of these market and I wonder how much the WOW effect has on these numbers now that they have stimulated the market.

.
O&D passenger numbers oneway from Jan to Nov 2018:

BOS
9.881 HAM
8.974 BER
9.103 DUS

ORD
14.323 HAM
10.603 BER
14.108 DUS

DFW
3.665 HAM
2.483 BER
2.973 DUS

DTW
3.845 HAM
6.663 BER
6.080 DUS

IAH
432 HAM
324 BER
387 DUS

LAX
17.328 HAM
16.048 BER
24.685 DUS

MIA
20.412 HAM
13.012 BER

PHL
3.320 HAM
2.189 BER
3.284 DUS

IAD
9.537 HAM
11.410 BER
6.136 DUS

ORD has double the O&D of DTW to secondary German cities and the massive * feed at ORD and has struggled to DUS (AA & LH) and TXL (AA & AB), yet DTW will make this work?

I just don’t get it. Based on your logic, DFW-HAM would be a summer gold mine. Yet ORD has 4x the O&D and * connections, yet UA or LH don’t fly it.

How do you come up with massive feed UA and AA at ORD are about the same size operation as DL at DTW plus all these places can be reached by a 757 from DTW. AA can't make China work from ORD but yet DL can from Detroit. The DFW market is half of what Detroit is plus you need a widebody to fly those routes.

klm617 wrote:

Here are some interesting numbers how Detroit stacks up against other markets when it comes to traffic between DTW and German secondary markets. Detroit could surely handle summer only service to some of these market and I wonder how much the WOW effect has on these numbers now that they have stimulated the market.

.
O&D passenger numbers oneway from Jan to Nov 2018:

BOS
9.881 HAM
8.974 BER
9.103 DUS

ORD
14.323 HAM
10.603 BER
14.108 DUS

DFW
3.665 HAM
2.483 BER
2.973 DUS

DTW
3.845 HAM
6.663 BER
6.080 DUS

IAH
432 HAM
324 BER
387 DUS

LAX
17.328 HAM
16.048 BER
24.685 DUS

MIA
20.412 HAM
13.012 BER

PHL
3.320 HAM
2.189 BER
3.284 DUS

IAD
9.537 HAM
11.410 BER
6.136 DUS

These are fairly small markets!! Nothing is over 100 pdew for starters. LAX-DUS and MIA-HAM are close. I divided the pax count by 334 to get PDEW since one way # were given for 11 months.

I can see why ORD would struggle with these and why DTW will never happen.

klm617 wrote:

FA9295 wrote:

In terms of DTW having "a lack of options in the low cost end of the spectrum all across the board", doesn't NK have a strong presence at DTW?

No, Detroit doesn't have a home-town ULCC airline like MSP does with SY, but NK does fly to many popular destinations from DTW, and has very likely put at least some pressure on DL's yields at DTW.

You are correct we do have Spirit. I had asked earlier up for a capacity comparison between SY at MSP and NK at DTW just to see exactly how much pressure there is. But unlike SY at MSP NK has no where that level of commitment to link DTW up as SY in MSP.

Oh come on!.

NK has demonstrated a strong track record of year-over-year growth at DTW, going back 20+ years. Adding destinations, adding frequency, and adding capacity. They are a strong #2 in DTW with ~15%+ of total emplanements, and about a 25% share of O&D. Not only that, they have that huge billboard of a hangar that they recently opened in DTW and they historical roots tie them back to Metro Detroit.

NK offers a nice complementary option for ULCC traffic out at DTW collecting traffic and offering a structure below DL (or comparable to E fares in some markets). More importantly they often have that ability to get relatively cheap walk-up / last minute fares versus DL or the other legacies when a last-minute trip is necessary (whether for personal reasons, family emergency, etc.).

SY under its new ownership is diversifying away from MSP and becoming less concentrated there.

This "home-town" mantra is way overrated. DL and NK are the single two airlines that contribute the most to DTW for air service, employment, community involvement, and contributions to the economy of the region.

klm617 wrote:

You are correct we do have Spirit. I had asked earlier up for a capacity comparison between SY at MSP and NK at DTW just to see exactly how much pressure there is. But unlike SY at MSP NK has no where that level of commitment to link DTW up as SY in MSP.

Goodness me let's please bring some facts into this discussion.

For the full year 2018, SY deployed 3.2 million seats in and out of MSP. That was representative of 7.28% of MSP's seats deployed to and from North America

For that same time period, NK deployed 3.0 million seats in and out of DTW. That was representative of 7.52% of DTW's seats deployed to and from North America

Thus, when looking at North American scope, NK actually has a greater presence measured by seat capacity share in DTW when compared to SY's presence at MSP.

I mixed up some my numbers going off the top of my head from earlier, based on data crunched earlier in the year

YTD Jan-July 2018, NK was at 9.8% of emplanements in DTW (versus 8.6% Jan-July 2017), numbers that more in line with winginit reported.
More importantly, NK was up 15% in emplanements 2018 versus the same timeframe in 2017.

15.6% YOY growth is HUGE in this industry.

winginit wrote:

klm617 wrote:

You are correct we do have Spirit. I had asked earlier up for a capacity comparison between SY at MSP and NK at DTW just to see exactly how much pressure there is. But unlike SY at MSP NK has no where that level of commitment to link DTW up as SY in MSP.

Goodness me let's please bring some facts into this discussion.

For the full year 2018, SY deployed 3.2 million seats in and out of MSP. That was representative of 7.28% of MSP's seats deployed to and from North America

For that same time period, NK deployed 3.0 million seats in and out of DTW. That was representative of 7.52% of DTW's seats deployed to and from North America

Thus, when looking at North American scope, NK actually has a greater presence measured by seat capacity share in DTW when compared to SY's presence at MSP.

Thank you for this so SY is applying about the same amount of pressure on DL at MSP as NK is applying to DL here in Detroit . I thought it was pretty close to even but if the trend keeps up we will see NK increasing it's market share at DTW while it's a reality that SY could shrink further at MSP.

klm617 wrote:

Thank you for this so SY is applying about the same amount of pressure on DL at MSP as NK is applying to DL here in Detroit . I thought it was pretty close to even but if the trend keeps up we will see NK increasing it's market share at DTW while it's a reality that SY could shrink further at MSP.

You thought it was close to even? Then why did you say the below five hours ago?

klm617 wrote:

But unlike SY at MSP NK has no where that level of commitment to link DTW up as SY in MSP.

Maybe I'm confused as to what you meant by level of commitment.

klm617 wrote:

winginit wrote:

klm617 wrote:

You are correct we do have Spirit. I had asked earlier up for a capacity comparison between SY at MSP and NK at DTW just to see exactly how much pressure there is. But unlike SY at MSP NK has no where that level of commitment to link DTW up as SY in MSP.

Goodness me let's please bring some facts into this discussion.

For the full year 2018, SY deployed 3.2 million seats in and out of MSP. That was representative of 7.28% of MSP's seats deployed to and from North America

For that same time period, NK deployed 3.0 million seats in and out of DTW. That was representative of 7.52% of DTW's seats deployed to and from North America

Thus, when looking at North American scope, NK actually has a greater presence measured by seat capacity share in DTW when compared to SY's presence at MSP.

Thank you for this so SY is applying about the same amount of pressure on DL at MSP as NK is applying to DL here in Detroit . I thought it was pretty close to even but if the trend keeps up we will see NK increasing it's market share at DTW while it's a reality that SY could shrink further at MSP.

I fail to understand your argument. There’s no ULCC or LCC headquartered in Atlanta, New York, Boston, D.C., Chicago, San Francisco, Los Angeles, etc. G6 is HQ’d in Las Vegas... but most people from Las Vegas go out of their way to avoid flying them. F9 is headquartered in Denver, but has rapidly been shrinking there this decade. NK is HQ’d at FLL, but if it makes you feel better you can think of them as Detroir’s home town airline since there are a lot of native Michiganders working there, and Ned Homfeld (RIP) stated numerous times that moving NK’s HQ away from Metro Detroit was his biggest regret.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, while we don’t have acccess to SY’s financials, the limited information they are required to report demonstrates very clearly that they are barely profitable — in a golden age of airline profitability — and much (if not all) of their profit is likely due to charter contracts, not scheduled flying. SY’s local ownership gave up on the airline and sold it to an equity firm, whose goal will be to either issue an IPO or sell it to a competitor. That will require a specific ROI. If that doesn’t happen, they’d likely liquidations the carrier, to get what they can from the assets.

I wouldn’t be envious of SY at all. Long term, it’s far more likely that they’ll drift resources away from MSP than it is they’ll maintain status quo or grow the market. Especially if NK or F9 gives them a tough time.

Meanwhile, DTW has grown into one of NK’s largest stations. NK was at an industry event I attended last year, and during the Q&A it was asked why NK was focusing on markets like DTW as opposed to DFW, and NK said that DTW was delivering some of the highest yields at the moment and they were going to go with it. It’s not entirely surprising — as I wrote two years ago, DTW had the least amount of LCC service of any major airport; that was ripe for change.

NK’s presence is nothing to sneeze at — it’s service isn’t endangered (like SY at MSP), and it places tremendous pressure on DL. JAX is now a 320 and 739 on DL, as opposed to the CR7 that existed prior to NK. MSY is at least 3x717, as opposed to the CR7 and CR9 that existed prior to NK. And if it weren’t for NK, instead of 4-5 mainline flights to MCI, DL would be operating a pair of CRJ and our buddy wingintl would be reminding us how lucky we are because MEM has no service to MCI .

winginit wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Thank you for this so SY is applying about the same amount of pressure on DL at MSP as NK is applying to DL here in Detroit . I thought it was pretty close to even but if the trend keeps up we will see NK increasing it's market share at DTW while it's a reality that SY could shrink further at MSP.

You thought it was close to even? Then why did you say the below five hours ago?

klm617 wrote:

But unlike SY at MSP NK has no where that level of commitment to link DTW up as SY in MSP.

Maybe I'm confused as to what you meant by level of commitment.

Because NK is about 5 x larger than SY and their expansion for the most part has always been centered around MSP unlike NK that has other priorities than DTW. But as others have said that is changing. Every time SY announces new routes most involve MSP but that's not the case with Detroit DTW is not the focus point of the NK network it's just a major station. So hence the level of commitment to MSP by SY has been greater that the NK commitment at DTW.

klm617 wrote:

winginit wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Thank you for this so SY is applying about the same amount of pressure on DL at MSP as NK is applying to DL here in Detroit . I thought it was pretty close to even but if the trend keeps up we will see NK increasing it's market share at DTW while it's a reality that SY could shrink further at MSP.

You thought it was close to even? Then why did you say the below five hours ago?

klm617 wrote:

But unlike SY at MSP NK has no where that level of commitment to link DTW up as SY in MSP.

Maybe I'm confused as to what you meant by level of commitment.

Because NK is about 5 x larger than SY and their expansion for the most part has always been centered around MSP unlike NK that has other priorities than DTW. But as others have said that is changing. Every time SY announces new routes most involve MSP but that's not the case with Detroit DTW is not the focus point of the NK network it's just a major station. So hence the level of commitment to MSP by SY has been greater that the NK commitment at DTW.

So by your logic, what would NK committing to DTW need to look like in order to be on par with SY's commitment to MSP? What's the threshold? Would DTW need to become NK's largest station? Would NK need to move their headquarters to DTW? What would it take to satisfy you?

DTW was NK's fourth largest station in 2018 (it had previously been their fifth largest, but DTW surpassed ORD in 2018) representing 5.69% of NK's total capacity. NK grew their DTW capacity 14% YoY.

winginit wrote:

klm617 wrote:

winginit wrote:

You thought it was close to even? Then why did you say the below five hours ago?



Maybe I'm confused as to what you meant by level of commitment.

Because NK is about 5 x larger than SY and their expansion for the most part has always been centered around MSP unlike NK that has other priorities than DTW. But as others have said that is changing. Every time SY announces new routes most involve MSP but that's not the case with Detroit DTW is not the focus point of the NK network it's just a major station. So hence the level of commitment to MSP by SY has been greater that the NK commitment at DTW.

So by your logic, what would NK committing to DTW need to look like in order to be on par with SY's commitment to MSP? What's the threshold? Would DTW need to become NK's largest station? Would NK need to move their headquarters to DTW? What would it take to satisfy you?

DTW was NK's fourth largest station in 2018 (it had previously been their fifth largest, but DTW surpassed ORD in 2018) representing 5.69% of NK's total capacity. NK grew their DTW capacity 14% YoY.

Where the primary focus of growth is on Detroit. Where the routeplanners sit down and say where are we going from Detroit next. There you go Detroit is less than 6% of the NK network and that is in no way committed to the Detroit market first and foremost. what portion of the SY network is associated with MSP. SY just announced around 10 new routes from MSP I can't ever remember NK announcing more than 2 or 3. But again we are talking history here and I understand SY is going in a different direction now so things are changing. NK announced a huge expansion at MCO just recently Detroit has never seen that level of commitment by NK. If DTW-MCI works why can't DTW-BNA or BDL.

klm617 wrote:

winginit wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Because NK is about 5 x larger than SY and their expansion for the most part has always been centered around MSP unlike NK that has other priorities than DTW. But as others have said that is changing. Every time SY announces new routes most involve MSP but that's not the case with Detroit DTW is not the focus point of the NK network it's just a major station. So hence the level of commitment to MSP by SY has been greater that the NK commitment at DTW.

So by your logic, what would NK committing to DTW need to look like in order to be on par with SY's commitment to MSP? What's the threshold? Would DTW need to become NK's largest station? Would NK need to move their headquarters to DTW? What would it take to satisfy you?

DTW was NK's fourth largest station in 2018 (it had previously been their fifth largest, but DTW surpassed ORD in 2018) representing 5.69% of NK's total capacity. NK grew their DTW capacity 14% YoY.

Where the primary focus of growth is on Detroit. Where the routeplanners sit down and say where are we going from Detroit next. There you go Detroit is less than 6% of the NK network and that is in no way committed to the Detroit market first and foremost. what portion of the SY network is associated with MSP. SY just announced around 10 new routes from MSP I can't ever remember NK announcing more than 2 or 3. But again we are talking history here and I understand SY is going in a different direction now so things are changing. NK announced a huge expansion at MCO just recently Detroit has never seen that level of commitment by NK. If DTW-MCI works why can't DTW-BNA or BDL.

I don't know what to you tell you then, other than your ideas of what DTW should be and the airlines should be doing there are a bit delusional. You have unrealistic expections that are always going to leave you dissapointed. You've been fighting the good fight on a.net for over 2 years but nothing has really changed and you seem to have unrealistic expectations on what DL, NK, the WCAA, WW, EI, or any airline could offer for DTW.

I actually take the other perspective, particularly when looking what NK has done over the past year. Its gone a bit unnoticed by many, but 14-15% YOY growth of enplanements is a pretty significant expansion. It hasn't come in one big push, its been continuous additions throughout the year, extra frequencies, and larger gauge.

What is really fascinating about NK and the relative lack of advertising and marketing they do in Metro Detroit and also its one of the few markets they have with significant brand recognition and brand loyalty.

klm617 wrote:

winginit wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Because NK is about 5 x larger than SY and their expansion for the most part has always been centered around MSP unlike NK that has other priorities than DTW. But as others have said that is changing. Every time SY announces new routes most involve MSP but that's not the case with Detroit DTW is not the focus point of the NK network it's just a major station. So hence the level of commitment to MSP by SY has been greater that the NK commitment at DTW.

So by your logic, what would NK committing to DTW need to look like in order to be on par with SY's commitment to MSP? What's the threshold? Would DTW need to become NK's largest station? Would NK need to move their headquarters to DTW? What would it take to satisfy you?

DTW was NK's fourth largest station in 2018 (it had previously been their fifth largest, but DTW surpassed ORD in 2018) representing 5.69% of NK's total capacity. NK grew their DTW capacity 14% YoY.

Where the primary focus of growth is on Detroit. Where the routeplanners sit down and say where are we going from Detroit next. There you go Detroit is less than 6% of the NK network and that is in no way committed to the Detroit market first and foremost. what portion of the SY network is associated with MSP. SY just announced around 10 new routes from MSP I can't ever remember NK announcing more than 2 or 3. But again we are talking history here and I understand SY is going in a different direction now so things are changing. NK announced a huge expansion at MCO just recently Detroit has never seen that level of commitment by NK. If DTW-MCI works why can't DTW-BNA or BDL.

I don't know what to you tell you then, other than your ideas of what DTW should be and the airlines should be doing there are a bit delusional. You have unrealistic expections that are always going to leave you dissapointed. You've been fighting the good fight on a.net for over 2 years but nothing has really changed and you seem to have unrealistic expectations on what DL, NK, the WCAA, WW, EI, or any airline could offer for DTW.

I actually take the other perspective, particularly when looking what NK has done over the past year. Its gone a bit unnoticed by many, but 14-15% YOY growth of enplanements is a pretty significant expansion. It hasn't come in one big push, its been continuous additions throughout the year, extra frequencies, and larger gauge.

What is really fascinating about NK and the relative lack of advertising and marketing they do in Metro Detroit and also its one of the few markets they have with significant brand recognition and brand loyalty.

You haven't answered the question -

klm617 wrote:

Where the primary focus of growth is on Detroit.

DTW has been a primary source of growth for NK. Hence DTW now being NK's fourth largest station.

klm617 wrote:

Where the routeplanners sit down and say where are we going from Detroit next.

They obviously do this. Hence, you know, the growth

klm617 wrote:

There you go Detroit is less than 6% of the NK network and that is in no way committed to the Detroit market first and foremost.

What is an acceptable number to you? For a point of reference, DL, a hub and spoke carrier with an established hub in DTW, deploys 6.7% of their total capacity in/out of DTW.

klm617 wrote:

what portion of the SY network is associated with MSP. SY just announced around 10 new routes from MSP I can't ever remember NK announcing more than 2 or 3.

As of 2018 44% of SY's seats are deployed in/out of MSP. That's obviously because SY is a small carrier with a single hub in MSP whereas NK is a point to point carrier. Surely you realize that NK will never deploy 44% of their capacity in/out of DTW, so I'll ask again, if not ~6%, what to you is an acceptable percentage of NK's capacity to allocate to DTW?

klm617 wrote:

But again we are talking history here and I understand SY is going in a different direction now so things are changing. NK announced a huge expansion at MCO just recently Detroit has never seen that level of commitment by NK. If DTW-MCI works why can't DTW-BNA or BDL.

NK is a ultra low cost leisure carrier based in South Florida. MCO is arguably the dominant leisure destination for the entire United States. Detroit is not and will never be even close to that, so surely you don't expect DTW to ever experience the sort of leisure expansions that MCO gets. or do you?

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

klm617 wrote:

winginit wrote:

So by your logic, what would NK committing to DTW need to look like in order to be on par with SY's commitment to MSP? What's the threshold? Would DTW need to become NK's largest station? Would NK need to move their headquarters to DTW? What would it take to satisfy you?

DTW was NK's fourth largest station in 2018 (it had previously been their fifth largest, but DTW surpassed ORD in 2018) representing 5.69% of NK's total capacity. NK grew their DTW capacity 14% YoY.

Where the primary focus of growth is on Detroit. Where the routeplanners sit down and say where are we going from Detroit next. There you go Detroit is less than 6% of the NK network and that is in no way committed to the Detroit market first and foremost. what portion of the SY network is associated with MSP. SY just announced around 10 new routes from MSP I can't ever remember NK announcing more than 2 or 3. But again we are talking history here and I understand SY is going in a different direction now so things are changing. NK announced a huge expansion at MCO just recently Detroit has never seen that level of commitment by NK. If DTW-MCI works why can't DTW-BNA or BDL.

I don't know what to you tell you then, other than your ideas of what DTW should be and the airlines should be doing there are a bit delusional. You have unrealistic expections that are always going to leave you dissapointed. You've been fighting the good fight on a.net for over 2 years but nothing has really changed and you seem to have unrealistic expectations on what DL, NK, the WCAA, WW, EI, or any airline could offer for DTW.

I actually take the other perspective, particularly when looking what NK has done over the past year. Its gone a bit unnoticed by many, but 14-15% YOY growth of enplanements is a pretty significant expansion. It hasn't come in one big push, its been continuous additions throughout the year, extra frequencies, and larger gauge.

What is really fascinating about NK and the relative lack of advertising and marketing they do in Metro Detroit and also its one of the few markets they have with significant brand recognition and brand loyalty.

The growth of NK has been phenomenal and as you mentioned, largely unnoticed. For example, after WN announced it was withdrawing from ATL, NK added a third frequency. We should be discussing ‘what’s next for NK - PHX? PUJ? Second DFW?’ Rather than crying about MSP having its own hometown LCC, especially when NK adds often come with DL upgauges/adds.

You can always think of NK as DTW’s hometown airline, since 20+ years of loyalty is likely the secret to their success here. We are, after all, one of only four markets to have had complimentary “meal” service from NK (when they first added DTW and ORD to LAX and OAK, they use to serve things like mini Hot Pockets that had been sitting in a disgusting warming tray).

Where the primary focus of growth is on Detroit. Where the routeplanners sit down and say where are we going from Detroit next. There you go Detroit is less than 6% of the NK network and that is in no way committed to the Detroit market first and foremost. what portion of the SY network is associated with MSP. SY just announced around 10 new routes from MSP I can't ever remember NK announcing more than 2 or 3. But again we are talking history here and I understand SY is going in a different direction now so things are changing. NK announced a huge expansion at MCO just recently Detroit has never seen that level of commitment by NK. If DTW-MCI works why can't DTW-BNA or BDL.

I admire your dedication and fanboyism for your home market. I think it's great that you are so gung-ho about it, but for your benefit and if you want to be taken seriously, it's probably better to really take a moment to think about what you are writing, proof-read your posts and maybe even sleep on it so as to not be too emotionally charged when responding. It's much more fruitful to have a well-argued discussion than one that is oscillating between extremes and nears on excessive posting. You don't want to be the poster that is responding to every other post.

Under your logic, if airline X were based in DTW and flew one sole route, then they would be showing the level of commitment that you say is dedicated, since 100% of their resources are dedicated to Detroit; whereas Spirit only deploys 6% of their resources in the DTW market, yet has some 140 aircraft. Despite this you would say the level of commitment by airline X is greater than Spirit. I disagree with you, and furthermore, having all your eggs in one basket is very dangerous and can cause a company (or city for that matter) to fail. (aka Automobile Industry and Metro Detroit for a great example). Economic swings are extreme in Detroit if the Automobile Industry is struggling, so is Detroit. Thus diversifying your portfolio is good and this is what NK is exactly doing.

Spirit has been committed to the Detroit market for over 20 years, and was pushed out by NW who at Spirit's infancy was much smaller and financially weaker. Take a look at the DOJ court cases on predatory pricing between NW and Spirit on the DTW-BOS and DTW-PHL routes (I believe in 1996). Spirit then moved into another market (FLL) where they could build their business model and thrive. Now that Spirit is financially stronger and bigger, it has the wherewithal to battle Delta (ie new NW) in many markets. Thus you see an adaptation of Delta's LCC strategy in DTW. Just look at how DL reacted when NK entered MSP. DL cannot use so many resources to protect DTW, they are adapting to co-exist as NK, B6, AK, F9 aren't going anywhere.

NK is committed to the DTW market and has shown such commitment by investing capital to build a new hangar. As mentioned by other posters, their YOY growth has been impressive and is forcing Delta to be much more reactionary and upgauge markets. The competition and commitment that Spirit is showing in DTW is important because it shows that the market can be stimulated. This stimulation should finally become apparent in the passenger statistics in DTW. If Spirit can continue to stimulate traffic, I expect that DTW will have above industry (US) growth for an airport of its size since the last 20 years it's been relatively stagnant. If NK and DL continuously gauge up aircraft and routes, then you will see DL and other airlines add more routes. I believe there is a multiplier effect that occurs when this happens.

Thus I would be very thankful to Spirit for not only stimulating new customer segments that otherwise might drive or not travel out of state to stimulate traffic. They are showing the most commitment to your home market, and despite maybe not being the type of airline that you prefer due to their ULCC model, they are showing the most commitment, and their product is being best received.

Be patient and I think a lot of your 'wishes' for increased service in DTW will come true. I also believe that the increases will be sustainable and not hinged on incentives from local governments. I agree with you that DTW suffers a bit from underservice when it comes to other US carriers and international ones, but that's partially due to DL's fortress hub. As NK weakens the fortress, more service will come, but yields will fall as well and at some point the market will be saturated.

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

klm617 wrote:

winginit wrote:

So by your logic, what would NK committing to DTW need to look like in order to be on par with SY's commitment to MSP? What's the threshold? Would DTW need to become NK's largest station? Would NK need to move their headquarters to DTW? What would it take to satisfy you?

DTW was NK's fourth largest station in 2018 (it had previously been their fifth largest, but DTW surpassed ORD in 2018) representing 5.69% of NK's total capacity. NK grew their DTW capacity 14% YoY.

Where the primary focus of growth is on Detroit. Where the routeplanners sit down and say where are we going from Detroit next. There you go Detroit is less than 6% of the NK network and that is in no way committed to the Detroit market first and foremost. what portion of the SY network is associated with MSP. SY just announced around 10 new routes from MSP I can't ever remember NK announcing more than 2 or 3. But again we are talking history here and I understand SY is going in a different direction now so things are changing. NK announced a huge expansion at MCO just recently Detroit has never seen that level of commitment by NK. If DTW-MCI works why can't DTW-BNA or BDL.

I don't know what to you tell you then, other than your ideas of what DTW should be and the airlines should be doing there are a bit delusional. You have unrealistic expections that are always going to leave you dissapointed. You've been fighting the good fight on a.net for over 2 years but nothing has really changed and you seem to have unrealistic expectations on what DL, NK, the WCAA, WW, EI, or any airline could offer for DTW.

I actually take the other perspective, particularly when looking what NK has done over the past year. Its gone a bit unnoticed by many, but 14-15% YOY growth of enplanements is a pretty significant expansion. It hasn't come in one big push, its been continuous additions throughout the year, extra frequencies, and larger gauge.

What is really fascinating about NK and the relative lack of advertising and marketing they do in Metro Detroit and also its one of the few markets they have with significant brand recognition and brand loyalty.

First of all EI on DTW-DUB is not unrealistic you tell me how an airport can land an daily EI flight when they can't even maintain year round Europe service outside of skyteam. A market that can't even carry a year round flight to one of the largest business centers in Europe Frankfurt which Detroit has carried 30 years now, Please don't sight the impending business deal with some Irish company either because based on that logic now that Ford and VW hooked up Detroit should be in line for Berlin flight with all the tech traffic that link up is going to create. Sorry in my mind that doesn't add up.

Anyways....heard something about a frozen pipe bursting today in the North Terminal, flooding the FIS area and leading to delays for WW?

klm617 wrote:

First of all EI on DTW-DUB is not unrealistic you tell me how an airport can land an daily EI flight when they can't even maintain year round Europe service outside of skyteam. A market that can't even carry a year round flight to one of the largest business centers in Europe Frankfurt which Detroit has carried 30 years now, Please don't sight the impending business deal with some Irish company either because based on that logic now that Ford and VW hooked up Detroit should be in line for Berlin flight with all the tech traffic that link up is going to create. Sorry in my mind that doesn't add up.

I never said EI was unrelastic. I just don't get so butthurt over the fact it hasn't happened yet.
You can't seem to grasp logical arguments that everyone else on a.net makes to all your replies, nevermind turning around a discussion about your lack of perceived commitment by NK to DTW, now somehow turns into a discussion about why you can't understand why EI hasn't started DTW yet.

You are unbelievable in your record-repeating sound-bytes about how DTW is slighted by everyone.

The Spirit Effect:

RDU, summer 2018:
3x717, 738

RDU, summer 2019 pre-NK announcement:
CR9, 2x717, 320

RDU, summer 2019 post-NK announcement:
4x320

That’s a 20%+ YOY increase in capacity.

- - -

Looks like the latest schedule update pulled the MD-90 through the rest of the year...

Effective when?

Figured sooner or later the MD90 would be pulled since there is no md88/90 pilot base and they would likely consolidate to MSP / Atl and eventually ATL only.

That said I’m on an MD90 almost every week now from Atl and it’s one of the slowest boarding aircraft and probably has to gate check about 75 rollerboards. I like the 2x3 seating though but maybe I will be impressed when the A220s show up more in the future.

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

Anyways....heard something about a frozen pipe bursting today in the North Terminal, flooding the FIS area and leading to delays for WW?

WW 122 left 2.5 hours late last night from DTW. If in fact that is the case is the airport responsible for any costs WOW Air might have incurred do to this event.