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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:31 pm

^Good for them. They still highly under utilize their potential, I think they have a shot at doing JFK if they can find the slots.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:44 pm

What does B6 schedule now look like for Summer 2019 with the additional BOS flights?
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:46 pm

Whats the charter scene look like this year at DTW now that we are in the midst of spring break / sun-vacation season?
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:28 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
What does B6 schedule now look like for Summer 2019 with the additional BOS flights?

RON departs at 545
2nd flight leaves at 1032
3rd leaves at 1558 (this is the A320)
4th leaves at 1923
The RON comes in at 2314 to spend the night.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:39 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
What does B6 schedule now look like for Summer 2019 with the additional BOS flights?


The 4th BOS flight doesn't start until September so summer 2019 is just 3 daily. Still very nice that B6 is giving Detroit the nod for and extra flight. I still think they could go into MCO and get a decent customer base with a morning departure from Detroit and a late evening return.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
sumeetc2
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:07 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Whats the charter scene look like this year at DTW now that we are in the midst of spring break / sun-vacation season?


It's mostly Sunwing and 1 Weekly VIVA flight that comes on Saturday and does a RON. And some Sun County and Swift Charters.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:03 pm

There was someone who posted DTW-Europe traffic numbers for the previous year from MIDT, I wonder if they'll kindly do the same for 2018, that could tell a story as to what markets are growing to Europe.
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:52 pm

Also played around with the flight schedules, the north terminal is at maximum capacity twice a day, and near max twice a day. I'd say the extension as outlined in the master plan adding 6 additional gates with 1 FIS capable is not completely out of the question in the next 5 years. Wonder if it would be D Concourse or E Concourse.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:14 pm

Remember the North is getting 3 new contact gates on the north end in the near future, and then another FIS widebody gate after the Smith Terminal site is cleared.

The Master Plan did not suggest that more gates were needed in the near-term. I'm curious if its really that far off, or if any of the airlines really want more gates. Particularly for RON parking its more cost-effective to remote park than pay to lease a gate thats not needed the remainder of the day.

When you say "at capacity" do you mean that literally every gate is actively occuppied with an aircraft that is actively in the loading/unloaded process or between turns?
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:56 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Remember the North is getting 3 new contact gates on the north end in the near future, and then another FIS widebody gate after the Smith Terminal site is cleared.

The Master Plan did not suggest that more gates were needed in the near-term. I'm curious if its really that far off, or if any of the airlines really want more gates. Particularly for RON parking its more cost-effective to remote park than pay to lease a gate thats not needed the remainder of the day.

When you say "at capacity" do you mean that literally every gate is actively occuppied with an aircraft that is actively in the loading/unloaded process or between turns?
Where each gate has an active flight. I think the WB gates are the only exception in the afternoon. I can see 1 airline and 1 airline only signing for that extension, and I think we all know who that'd be.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:04 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Remember the North is getting 3 new contact gates on the north end in the near future, and then another FIS widebody gate after the Smith Terminal site is cleared.

The Master Plan did not suggest that more gates were needed in the near-term. I'm curious if its really that far off, or if any of the airlines really want more gates. Particularly for RON parking its more cost-effective to remote park than pay to lease a gate thats not needed the remainder of the day.

When you say "at capacity" do you mean that literally every gate is actively occuppied with an aircraft that is actively in the loading/unloaded process or between turns?


Could they just not build the gates as common use gate without them being leased to anyone directly. Also what is the counter space situation should a new airline want to add Detroit to it's network. Also do WOW and Royal Jordanian have dedicated check-in counters in the North Terminal or do they use shared space ?
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:15 pm

For anyone who's interested even Toledo has nonstop service to VPS and please don't tell me there is more O/D from TOL than there is from DTW to VPS. My suggestion drive to TOL and send Delta a message we Detroiters don't want to connect at the mad house Atlanta we deserve better than that from our hub carrier.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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FA9295
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:32 pm

klm617 wrote:
For anyone who's interested even Toledo has nonstop service to VPS and please don't tell me there is more O/D from TOL than there is from DTW to VPS. My suggestion drive to TOL and send Delta a message we Detroiters don't want to connect at the mad house Atlanta we deserve better than that from our hub carrier.

Oh brother.

Allegiant's business model is so vastly different than Delta's that you can't even make this comparison fair. Sure, DTW probably has more O&D traffic, but Allegiant establishes routes at small airports to either larger cities or vacation/leisure destinations. Delta is a legacy business-oriented airline, and they try to keep leisure routes to a minimum if they can so those first class seats will fill up. In this case, Allegiant would make a profit with TOL-VPS, while Delta may end up losing money if they were to start DTW-VPS.

With that being said though, if Delta does start another route from VPS, my money would be on DTW, given the high demand for DTW-Florida routes (in comparison to places like MSP). So maybe it'll happen sooner or later.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:44 pm

FA9295 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
For anyone who's interested even Toledo has nonstop service to VPS and please don't tell me there is more O/D from TOL than there is from DTW to VPS. My suggestion drive to TOL and send Delta a message we Detroiters don't want to connect at the mad house Atlanta we deserve better than that from our hub carrier.

Oh brother.

Allegiant's business model is so vastly different than Delta's that you can't even make this comparison fair. Sure, DTW probably has more O&D traffic, but Allegiant establishes routes at small airports to either larger cities or vacation/leisure destinations. Delta is a legacy business-oriented airline, and they try to keep leisure routes to a minimum if they can so those first class seats will fill up. In this case, Allegiant would make a profit with TOL-VPS, while Delta may end up losing money if they were to start DTW-VPS.

With that being said though, if Delta does start another route from VPS, my money would be on DTW, given the high demand for DTW-Florida routes (in comparison to places like MSP). So maybe it'll happen sooner or later.


Just because there business model is different doesn't mean there isn't a market this is the same as the DTW-JAX market. Somebody needs to come in and force Delta's hand on DTW-SRQ/VPS. If Allegiant can make TOL-VPS work then perhaps the airport should start courting G4 to fill these secondary markets to Florida and fill that void. Northwest was a business orientated airline and they didn't force all their North South Florida traffic from their hub airports to flow over MEM they flew directly from Detroit to those markets.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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FA9295
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:22 am

klm617 wrote:
Just because there business model is different doesn't mean there isn't a market this is the same as the DTW-JAX market. Somebody needs to come in and force Delta's hand on DTW-SRQ/VPS. Northwest was a business orientated airline and they didn't force all their North South Florida traffic from their hub airports to flow over MEM they flew directly from Detroit to those markets.

I didn't say that there isn't a market. I said that because their business models are vastly different from each other, that Allegiant would make money flying to VPS, while Delta may not. Since VPS is a leisure-oriented destination, the people looking to travel there are probably trying to just get the cheapest airfare. Delta doesn't want to attract these customers if they can help it because at best, they will break even, but they probably wouldn't profit off of offering such low fares. And if they were to keep the fares higher, very little people would actually book the flights. Also, Delta's ATL hub and Northwest's MEM hubs were very different. ATL profited off of connecting traffic as they still do today, while MEM did not back then, hence why it was de-hubbed. Also not to mention the small local market in Memphis in comparison to Atlanta, Minneapolis, and Detroit.

klm617 wrote:
If Allegiant can make TOL-VPS work then perhaps the airport should start courting G4 to fill these secondary markets to Florida and fill that void.

Oh yeah, because that'll definitely happen... :roll:
You do realize that most of Allegiant's routes only operate 2x weekly? Not too much traffic for Allegiant to count on, mainly due to their limited fleet and their small customer base. They take as much traffic as they can with as little frequencies as possible, and run with it. If Delta started this route at DTW, they would very likely have to make it daily. I could never imagine G4 in Detroit. Even SY would be more realistic then them.
 
seanpmassey
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:35 am

klm617 wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
For anyone who's interested even Toledo has nonstop service to VPS and please don't tell me there is more O/D from TOL than there is from DTW to VPS. My suggestion drive to TOL and send Delta a message we Detroiters don't want to connect at the mad house Atlanta we deserve better than that from our hub carrier.

Oh brother.

Allegiant's business model is so vastly different than Delta's that you can't even make this comparison fair. Sure, DTW probably has more O&D traffic, but Allegiant establishes routes at small airports to either larger cities or vacation/leisure destinations. Delta is a legacy business-oriented airline, and they try to keep leisure routes to a minimum if they can so those first class seats will fill up. In this case, Allegiant would make a profit with TOL-VPS, while Delta may end up losing money if they were to start DTW-VPS.

With that being said though, if Delta does start another route from VPS, my money would be on DTW, given the high demand for DTW-Florida routes (in comparison to places like MSP). So maybe it'll happen sooner or later.


Just because there business model is different doesn't mean there isn't a market this is the same as the DTW-JAX market. Somebody needs to come in and force Delta's hand on DTW-SRQ/VPS. If Allegiant can make TOL-VPS work then perhaps the airport should start courting G4 to fill these secondary markets to Florida and fill that void. Northwest was a business orientated airline and they didn't force all their North South Florida traffic from their hub airports to flow over MEM they flew directly from Detroit to those markets.


You're partially right. There likely is a market for DTW to secondary cities in Florida. But just because Allegiant serves VPS/SRQ from smaller markets like Toledo doesn't mean that it's in Delta's interest to serve them directly from DTW. Delta could probably do it profitably, but running that service through Atlanta allows for them to make more money, get better utilization of their equipment, use larger aircraft, and provide more frequency. This results in lower costs and more flexibility for the customer. If Delta offered a non-stop on some of those routes, it would likely be a once-daily on a regional jet.

Remember, Delta is limited to the number of regional jets that they can fly as part of their contracts with DALPA. So those aircraft are going to be assigned to the routes where they make the most business sense. And that means passengers traveling to some smaller destinations may need to connect through Atlanta, which may make more business sense than a daily one-off route to a low-yield leisure destination.

Besides, it's not like Atlanta is really out of the way for a flight to Florida.
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:36 am

seanpmassey wrote:
klm617 wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
Oh brother.

Allegiant's business model is so vastly different than Delta's that you can't even make this comparison fair. Sure, DTW probably has more O&D traffic, but Allegiant establishes routes at small airports to either larger cities or vacation/leisure destinations. Delta is a legacy business-oriented airline, and they try to keep leisure routes to a minimum if they can so those first class seats will fill up. In this case, Allegiant would make a profit with TOL-VPS, while Delta may end up losing money if they were to start DTW-VPS.

With that being said though, if Delta does start another route from VPS, my money would be on DTW, given the high demand for DTW-Florida routes (in comparison to places like MSP). So maybe it'll happen sooner or later.


Just because there business model is different doesn't mean there isn't a market this is the same as the DTW-JAX market. Somebody needs to come in and force Delta's hand on DTW-SRQ/VPS. If Allegiant can make TOL-VPS work then perhaps the airport should start courting G4 to fill these secondary markets to Florida and fill that void. Northwest was a business orientated airline and they didn't force all their North South Florida traffic from their hub airports to flow over MEM they flew directly from Detroit to those markets.


You're partially right. There likely is a market for DTW to secondary cities in Florida. But just because Allegiant serves VPS/SRQ from smaller markets like Toledo doesn't mean that it's in Delta's interest to serve them directly from DTW. Delta could probably do it profitably, but running that service through Atlanta allows for them to make more money, get better utilization of their equipment, use larger aircraft, and provide more frequency. This results in lower costs and more flexibility for the customer. If Delta offered a non-stop on some of those routes, it would likely be a once-daily on a regional jet.

Remember, Delta is limited to the number of regional jets that they can fly as part of their contracts with DALPA. So those aircraft are going to be assigned to the routes where they make the most business sense. And that means passengers traveling to some smaller destinations may need to connect through Atlanta, which may make more business sense than a daily one-off route to a low-yield leisure destination.

Besides, it's not like Atlanta is really out of the way for a flight to Florida.


I agree with your post 100% so if Delta doesn't want that traffic then it's time for the airport to look for other options to connect those cities to Detroit. If G4 can operate 2 weekly profitably out of TOL then surely with their budget pricing they could be profitable out of Detroit. 2 times weekly nonstop on G4 is better than no nonstop at all. If Delta doesn't want the market then the WCAA has to market itself to other carriers to open up these routes. No but Atlanta is a nightmare to transit through and why should the Detroit customer be subject to a onestop connection there when every other market around Detroit has nonstop to those markets it's a bit embarrassing being DTW is a major Delta hub.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:17 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Remember the North is getting 3 new contact gates on the north end in the near future, and then another FIS widebody gate after the Smith Terminal site is cleared.

The Master Plan did not suggest that more gates were needed in the near-term. I'm curious if its really that far off, or if any of the airlines really want more gates. Particularly for RON parking its more cost-effective to remote park than pay to lease a gate thats not needed the remainder of the day.

When you say "at capacity" do you mean that literally every gate is actively occuppied with an aircraft that is actively in the loading/unloaded process or between turns?
I also forgot to mention, lets say they rename this new extension to E gates, which is the most logical thing to do since the extension would be on the south end, wouldn't it be easier to install a tram or separate security checkpoint? That seems like an awfully long walk without some form of transportation or separate check in lobby/security checkpoint. I'll go through the masterplan and point out the page so y'all can reference to what the design looks like.

Once the Smith terminal is gone, immediate plans are to relocate the ATC tower there. Mold is apparently a huge issue at the current site. I'd be interested to zse the design of the new tower, I'd like to see something along the lines of an Atlanta style control tower with up lighting. Believe it or not, it really makes a good impression. The current tower is so dark and looks like most other control towers.
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lavalampluva
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:02 pm

klm617 wrote:
seanpmassey wrote:
klm617 wrote:

Just because there business model is different doesn't mean there isn't a market this is the same as the DTW-JAX market. Somebody needs to come in and force Delta's hand on DTW-SRQ/VPS. If Allegiant can make TOL-VPS work then perhaps the airport should start courting G4 to fill these secondary markets to Florida and fill that void. Northwest was a business orientated airline and they didn't force all their North South Florida traffic from their hub airports to flow over MEM they flew directly from Detroit to those markets.


You're partially right. There likely is a market for DTW to secondary cities in Florida. But just because Allegiant serves VPS/SRQ from smaller markets like Toledo doesn't mean that it's in Delta's interest to serve them directly from DTW. Delta could probably do it profitably, but running that service through Atlanta allows for them to make more money, get better utilization of their equipment, use larger aircraft, and provide more frequency. This results in lower costs and more flexibility for the customer. If Delta offered a non-stop on some of those routes, it would likely be a once-daily on a regional jet.

Remember, Delta is limited to the number of regional jets that they can fly as part of their contracts with DALPA. So those aircraft are going to be assigned to the routes where they make the most business sense. And that means passengers traveling to some smaller destinations may need to connect through Atlanta, which may make more business sense than a daily one-off route to a low-yield leisure destination.

Besides, it's not like Atlanta is really out of the way for a flight to Florida.


I agree with your post 100% so if Delta doesn't want that traffic then it's time for the airport to look for other options to connect those cities to Detroit. If G4 can operate 2 weekly profitably out of TOL then surely with their budget pricing they could be profitable out of Detroit. 2 times weekly nonstop on G4 is better than no nonstop at all. If Delta doesn't want the market then the WCAA has to market itself to other carriers to open up these routes. No but Atlanta is a nightmare to transit through and why should the Detroit customer be subject to a onestop connection there when every other market around Detroit has nonstop to those markets it's a bit embarrassing being DTW is a major Delta hub.

Isn’t it possible that G4 is trying to serve an area and market. And maybe people in the Toledo area don’t want to have to hump it to DTW just to go to Florida.

DTW has a ton of flights to TPA and MCO. Does it really make that big of a deal that they don’t have flights to another Orlando and Tampa/St. Pete airports?? And DTW already has flights to RSW and SRQ. PGD is only a few miles from both of them.

But hey...those colorful G4 tails would look nice at Wayne. :wink:
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:19 am

I wouldn't expect Aer Lingus in Detroit anytime soon with their CEO putting this statement out and the WCAA being unwilling to put any kind of respectable incentive package together Aer Lingus landing in Detroit is just a pipe dream even though there is tremendous potential for a DTW-DUB route. Guess it's just going to be business as usual here at DTW. They are chasing the money and Detroit has nothing to offer.

As to how many markets the carrier, owned by IAG, will enter depends on “how attractive a deal we can negotiate to enter those markets”, Mr Doyle added.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:20 am

lavalampluva wrote:
klm617 wrote:
seanpmassey wrote:

You're partially right. There likely is a market for DTW to secondary cities in Florida. But just because Allegiant serves VPS/SRQ from smaller markets like Toledo doesn't mean that it's in Delta's interest to serve them directly from DTW. Delta could probably do it profitably, but running that service through Atlanta allows for them to make more money, get better utilization of their equipment, use larger aircraft, and provide more frequency. This results in lower costs and more flexibility for the customer. If Delta offered a non-stop on some of those routes, it would likely be a once-daily on a regional jet.

Remember, Delta is limited to the number of regional jets that they can fly as part of their contracts with DALPA. So those aircraft are going to be assigned to the routes where they make the most business sense. And that means passengers traveling to some smaller destinations may need to connect through Atlanta, which may make more business sense than a daily one-off route to a low-yield leisure destination.

Besides, it's not like Atlanta is really out of the way for a flight to Florida.


I agree with your post 100% so if Delta doesn't want that traffic then it's time for the airport to look for other options to connect those cities to Detroit. If G4 can operate 2 weekly profitably out of TOL then surely with their budget pricing they could be profitable out of Detroit. 2 times weekly nonstop on G4 is better than no nonstop at all. If Delta doesn't want the market then the WCAA has to market itself to other carriers to open up these routes. No but Atlanta is a nightmare to transit through and why should the Detroit customer be subject to a onestop connection there when every other market around Detroit has nonstop to those markets it's a bit embarrassing being DTW is a major Delta hub.

Isn’t it possible that G4 is trying to serve an area and market. And maybe people in the Toledo area don’t want to have to hump it to DTW just to go to Florida.

DTW has a ton of flights to TPA and MCO. Does it really make that big of a deal that they don’t have flights to another Orlando and Tampa/St. Pete airports?? And DTW already has flights to RSW and SRQ. PGD is only a few miles from both of them.

But hey...those colorful G4 tails would look nice at Wayne. :wink:


Very much so just as the customers from the Detroit area don't want to have to transfer at Atlanta to get to SRQ and VPS
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Mar 03, 2019 2:27 am

klm617 wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
klm617 wrote:

I agree with your post 100% so if Delta doesn't want that traffic then it's time for the airport to look for other options to connect those cities to Detroit. If G4 can operate 2 weekly profitably out of TOL then surely with their budget pricing they could be profitable out of Detroit. 2 times weekly nonstop on G4 is better than no nonstop at all. If Delta doesn't want the market then the WCAA has to market itself to other carriers to open up these routes. No but Atlanta is a nightmare to transit through and why should the Detroit customer be subject to a onestop connection there when every other market around Detroit has nonstop to those markets it's a bit embarrassing being DTW is a major Delta hub.

Isn’t it possible that G4 is trying to serve an area and market. And maybe people in the Toledo area don’t want to have to hump it to DTW just to go to Florida.

DTW has a ton of flights to TPA and MCO. Does it really make that big of a deal that they don’t have flights to another Orlando and Tampa/St. Pete airports?? And DTW already has flights to RSW and SRQ. PGD is only a few miles from both of them.

But hey...those colorful G4 tails would look nice at Wayne. :wink:


Very much so just as the customers from the Detroit area don't want to have to transfer at Atlanta to get to SRQ and VPS

They don’t have to transfer at ATL to get to SRQ. And how many fly to VPS?

Airlines fly routes which they think will make them money. It’s probably good that you don’t own an airline. You’d lose your shirt trying to fly from DTW to every airport in the world. :lol:
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Mar 03, 2019 2:56 am

lavalampluva wrote:
klm617 wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
Isn’t it possible that G4 is trying to serve an area and market. And maybe people in the Toledo area don’t want to have to hump it to DTW just to go to Florida.

DTW has a ton of flights to TPA and MCO. Does it really make that big of a deal that they don’t have flights to another Orlando and Tampa/St. Pete airports?? And DTW already has flights to RSW and SRQ. PGD is only a few miles from both of them.

But hey...those colorful G4 tails would look nice at Wayne. :wink:


Very much so just as the customers from the Detroit area don't want to have to transfer at Atlanta to get to SRQ and VPS

They don’t have to transfer at ATL to get to SRQ. And how many fly to VPS?

Airlines fly routes which they think will make them money. It’s probably good that you don’t own an airline. You’d lose your shirt trying to fly from DTW to every airport in the world. :lol:


Delta doesn't fly DTW-SRQ daily year round.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Mar 03, 2019 2:59 am

lavalampluva wrote:
klm617 wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
Isn’t it possible that G4 is trying to serve an area and market. And maybe people in the Toledo area don’t want to have to hump it to DTW just to go to Florida.

DTW has a ton of flights to TPA and MCO. Does it really make that big of a deal that they don’t have flights to another Orlando and Tampa/St. Pete airports?? And DTW already has flights to RSW and SRQ. PGD is only a few miles from both of them.

But hey...those colorful G4 tails would look nice at Wayne. :wink:


Very much so just as the customers from the Detroit area don't want to have to transfer at Atlanta to get to SRQ and VPS

They don’t have to transfer at ATL to get to SRQ. And how many fly to VPS?

Airlines fly routes which they think will make them money. It’s probably good that you don’t own an airline. You’d lose your shirt trying to fly from DTW to every airport in the world. :lol:


No if I owned an airline I'd fly routes that no one else flies out of Detroit that are viable because my competitor is choking of capacity just to screw the customer.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:16 am

klm617 wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
klm617 wrote:

Very much so just as the customers from the Detroit area don't want to have to transfer at Atlanta to get to SRQ and VPS

They don’t have to transfer at ATL to get to SRQ. And how many fly to VPS?

Airlines fly routes which they think will make them money. It’s probably good that you don’t own an airline. You’d lose your shirt trying to fly from DTW to every airport in the world. :lol:


No if I owned an airline I'd fly routes that no one else flies out of Detroit that are viable because my competitor is choking of capacity just to screw the customer.
I'll put my two cents in here. DL knows where theyll make their money. However, they're not going to put on a full show if they dont have to. Let's use JAX as an example, 6x weekly CR7 it was, now fares are hitting $60 one way with 2 carriers and 3 flights, all in which are decent sized mainline aircraft. They knew they could run more than a -700, NK just blindsided them by adding it virtually out of nowhere.

I would stand to bet that if NK were to start SRQ even if it's only seasonal, it'll be the same result. DL didnt budge on PBI, but decided to fly larger A321 aircraft to MBJ in response to NKs 3x weekly flight.

In essence, DL knows what they're doing, they're just making their big bucks by maximizing connections in Atlanta, which is smart until the underdog starts sweeping away. I'll be interested to see what NK adds next and what DL will do in response, like RDU & AUS for example, now mostly A320s compared to larger RJs/717s just a year ago.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:16 am

Dear WCAA this is the kind of stuff you have to start doing if you want to attract Aer Lingus to add Detroit. You need to start doing effective marketing and as I have said before I think it's time for the airport to hire someone to do that marketing for them as they seem to currently be missing the mark.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Sgt_Barone/s ... 0158299138
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:30 am

Whatever, I guarantee DTW has a far better chance of getting EI in their next round of new US destinations than CLE, billboard or not. That’s not going to sway anyone off significance and just shows the desperation of CLE after losing WW.
 
klm617
Posts: 4339
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:50 am

Found some great shots of the KYIP passenger terminal

Interior of Air Terminal, Willow Run Airport, December 1947

https://aadl.org/N014_0036_002
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
KarlB737
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:01 am

klm617 wrote:
perhaps the airport should start courting G4 to fill these secondary markets to Florida......


Why should DTW "court" Allegiant for anything ever. Allegiant is a part-time airline. Having Allegiant's part-time operation at DTW would be a waste of gate space. Like other forum members have stated these other Florida markets could be served if needed at all via ATL. DTW fliers are used to multiple frequencies to their destinations both ways. Allegiant with their once or twice a week service isn't going to cut it here.
 
klm617
Posts: 4339
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:08 am

How times have changed now Detroit isn't even in the top 20 and it's a major hub airport.

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/2198670 ... t_detroit/
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 7265
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:20 am

And Detroit used to be the third or fourth largest city in the country. Things do change my friend.
 
lavalampluva
Posts: 1360
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:27 am

klm617 wrote:
How times have changed now Detroit isn't even in the top 20 and it's a major hub airport.

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/2198670 ... t_detroit/

3m pax? Well of course. This is when most travelers were still taking trains.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:36 am

flymco753 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Remember the North is getting 3 new contact gates on the north end in the near future, and then another FIS widebody gate after the Smith Terminal site is cleared.

The Master Plan did not suggest that more gates were needed in the near-term. I'm curious if its really that far off, or if any of the airlines really want more gates. Particularly for RON parking its more cost-effective to remote park than pay to lease a gate thats not needed the remainder of the day.

When you say "at capacity" do you mean that literally every gate is actively occuppied with an aircraft that is actively in the loading/unloaded process or between turns?
I also forgot to mention, lets say they rename this new extension to E gates, which is the most logical thing to do since the extension would be on the south end, wouldn't it be easier to install a tram or separate security checkpoint? That seems like an awfully long walk without some form of transportation or separate check in lobby/security checkpoint. I'll go through the masterplan and point out the page so y'all can reference to what the design looks like.

Once the Smith terminal is gone, immediate plans are to relocate the ATC tower there. Mold is apparently a huge issue at the current site. I'd be interested to zse the design of the new tower, I'd like to see something along the lines of an Atlanta style control tower with up lighting. Believe it or not, it really makes a good impression. The current tower is so dark and looks like most other control towers.

Well, based on the 2017 Master Plan they don't identify any near-term need to add more gates to the North, other than what has already been identified.
- 3 new narrowbody gates on the north-end, plus eventually 1 additional widebody FIS gate on the south end.
Those 4 new gates will go a long way toward whatever issues with RON arrivals/departures there may be in the terminal.
AA and UA are in no need of additional gates and aren't going to be adding anything other than a few potential token new flights in the near term. If anything, they have a lot of room for upgauging on their existing flights before they look at at adding additional frequencies to their hubs. They have frequency on smaller gauge aircraft to align to their hub departure banks, but neither is going to be adding any significant number of flights in the near to mid-term.

The cost of expanding the building shell and adding the new gates on the south end is at least a $200-300M+ expense, and something that isn't in the short or mid-term planning horizon for the airport. Even if they do proceed down this path, there is no need for additional security or check-in area as all of that can easily be accomodated in the current North Terminal head-house. They aren't going to even consider adding a tram. Moving sidewalks, but these are only walking to the middle/exit points of the the terminal. This stuff all costs a lot of money to both build and maintain and isn't even in the near term planning horizon.

There are only two airlines that have a vested interest in the infrastructure planning at DTW; DL and NK.
No one else even has a seat at the table in regards to these discussions.
While its nice to speculate, no one has really indicated that NK is going to ultimately turn DTW into a 100 flight/day operation.

Regarding the ATC tower, much of that is dictated by the FAA as they tend to utilize a standard planning and design across multiple airports. DTW's tower was the same design as many towers in the early-mid 90's vintage. Same as today, but often airports are paying more to get more custom or signature designs above and beyond the FAA basic design.
 
N292UX
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:52 am

I honestly think G4 would be better off at YIP. That'd be cool to see commercial service at YIP. It's definitely do-able.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:07 am

Why? There is no infrastructure in place for commercial passenger operations at YIP. They can just as easily go to DTW, or use FNT, TOL, etc.

No passenger terminal, no TSA, no concessionaires, no parking lots, no ground transportation.....

No one gains anything by having a token G4 presence at YIP. Go to DTW 12 miles down the road....
 
winginit
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:25 am

klm617 wrote:
Dear WCAA this is the kind of stuff you have to start doing if you want to attract Aer Lingus to add Detroit. You need to start doing effective marketing and as I have said before I think it's time for the airport to hire someone to do that marketing for them as they seem to currently be missing the mark.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Sgt_Barone/s ... 0158299138


What's interesting is that it's been confirmed that the Cleveland Airport didn't pay for those billboards.
 
winginit
Posts: 2542
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:31 am

klm617 wrote:
How times have changed now Detroit isn't even in the top 20 and it's a major hub airport.

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/2198670 ... t_detroit/


Of course. At the time of this article, 1958, Detroit was the fifth largest city in the country and had the highest GDP per capita in the country.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:10 pm

It's official WOW Air goes to 5 weekly out of Detroit this summer.

Reykjavik Keflavik – Detroit 06JUN19 – 18SEP19 Increase from 4 to 5 weekly
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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rangercarp
Posts: 102
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:30 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

Once the Smith terminal is gone, immediate plans are to relocate the ATC tower there. Mold is apparently a huge issue at the current site.

Regarding the ATC tower, much of that is dictated by the FAA as they tend to utilize a standard planning and design across multiple airports. DTW's tower was the same design as many towers in the early-mid 90's vintage.


I am confused. They are building a new ATC tower because the current one has mold? Wouldn't it be far cheaper to clean up/fix the mold problem?
iwgbtp!
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:43 pm

They will be in the next few years, yes.

The mold contamination issue cropped up over a decade ago and there have been numerous attempts to clean-up or mitigate the mold infestation. There have been several lawsuits from sick employees and I believe OSHA has gotten involved. There was one time they actually had to evacuate the tower and it shut down the airport a few years ago due to the vapors from mold mitigation.

Yes, they decided they will replace the tower in the next few years, although haven't seen a firm timetable for the replacement.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:05 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
They will be in the next few years, yes.

The mold contamination issue cropped up over a decade ago and there have been numerous attempts to clean-up or mitigate the mold infestation. There have been several lawsuits from sick employees and I believe OSHA has gotten involved. There was one time they actually had to evacuate the tower and it shut down the airport a few years ago due to the vapors from mold mitigation.

Yes, they decided they will replace the tower in the next few years, although haven't seen a firm timetable for the replacement.


What is the actual source of the mold was it flawed construction. What is the main reason they are unable to stop the mold infestation and will they be tearing the old tower down when the new one is built ?
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
winginit
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:50 pm

klm617 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
They will be in the next few years, yes.

The mold contamination issue cropped up over a decade ago and there have been numerous attempts to clean-up or mitigate the mold infestation. There have been several lawsuits from sick employees and I believe OSHA has gotten involved. There was one time they actually had to evacuate the tower and it shut down the airport a few years ago due to the vapors from mold mitigation.

Yes, they decided they will replace the tower in the next few years, although haven't seen a firm timetable for the replacement.


What is the actual source of the mold was it flawed construction. What is the main reason they are unable to stop the mold infestation and will they be tearing the old tower down when the new one is built ?


The blame game has been going back and forth for well over a decade now since mold was originally discovered in the tower in 2004. Old age more so than anything originally I imagine (I believe the tower was built back in 1992?), but then a botched clean-up operation that brought a lawsuit in 2007.

A new tower is desperately needed. 27 years old is up there especially compared to the new towers that have popped up at airports of comparable size recently.
Last edited by winginit on Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
sumeetc2
Posts: 17
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:50 pm

So they are adding a new tower, adding a deicing pad while getting rid of a terminal, what else are they doing?
 
DTWorld
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:03 pm

Do we have any pictures of the current demolition of the Smith terminal?
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:22 am

DTWorld wrote:
Do we have any pictures of the current demolition of the Smith terminal?
From what it looks like now, the rotunda from A Concourse is gone, just the hallway that lead up to it.
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jetlanta
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:20 am

Y'all Allegiant isn'g going into DTW with the competition it offers. It serves the region via FNT, TOL and even GRR (for the Lansing, Kalamazoo & Battle Creek region that historically DTW has drawn from). The decision to go into FNT was strategic. I'd anticipate further growth there.
 
N292UX
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:38 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Why? There is no infrastructure in place for commercial passenger operations at YIP. They can just as easily go to DTW, or use FNT, TOL, etc.

No passenger terminal, no TSA, no concessionaires, no parking lots, no ground transportation.....

No one gains anything by having a token G4 presence at YIP. Go to DTW 12 miles down the road....

While true, G4 flies to Concord, NC, and the terminal there is quite literally in a hangar. Concessions are basically vending machines. It's not a traditional airport terminal. Moral of the story is G4 has done this in the past, so you never know what could happen.

For reference, this is the terminal G4 uses at Concord:
Image
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:39 am

N292UX wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Why? There is no infrastructure in place for commercial passenger operations at YIP. They can just as easily go to DTW, or use FNT, TOL, etc.

No passenger terminal, no TSA, no concessionaires, no parking lots, no ground transportation.....

No one gains anything by having a token G4 presence at YIP. Go to DTW 12 miles down the road....

While true, G4 flies to Concord, NC, and the terminal there is quite literally in a hangar. Concessions are basically vending machines. It's not a traditional airport terminal. Moral of the story is G4 has done this in the past, so you never know what could happen.


But for G4 DET is a much better option than YIP. The customer base that would be more likely to chose G4 is more concentrated around DET. Even MTC would be better than YIP.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
winginit
Posts: 2542
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:53 pm

klm617 wrote:
N292UX wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Why? There is no infrastructure in place for commercial passenger operations at YIP. They can just as easily go to DTW, or use FNT, TOL, etc.

No passenger terminal, no TSA, no concessionaires, no parking lots, no ground transportation.....

No one gains anything by having a token G4 presence at YIP. Go to DTW 12 miles down the road....

While true, G4 flies to Concord, NC, and the terminal there is quite literally in a hangar. Concessions are basically vending machines. It's not a traditional airport terminal. Moral of the story is G4 has done this in the past, so you never know what could happen.


But for G4 DET is a much better option than YIP. The customer base that would be more likely to chose G4 is more concentrated around DET.


As has been discussed to exhaustion within these threads, the DET fire department hasn't even been staffed for years, and it would take millions (that the city has rejected) for DET to be brought to a state where even business jet travel could be accommodated. The airport will likely be closed permanently as you well know.

That being the case, no, DET is in no way, shape, or form a much better option for any carrier - commercial or otherwise, when compared to YIP.
 
gnakra80
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:23 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:09 pm

klm617 wrote:
N292UX wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Why? There is no infrastructure in place for commercial passenger operations at YIP. They can just as easily go to DTW, or use FNT, TOL, etc.

No passenger terminal, no TSA, no concessionaires, no parking lots, no ground transportation.....

No one gains anything by having a token G4 presence at YIP. Go to DTW 12 miles down the road....

While true, G4 flies to Concord, NC, and the terminal there is quite literally in a hangar. Concessions are basically vending machines. It's not a traditional airport terminal. Moral of the story is G4 has done this in the past, so you never know what could happen.


But for G4 DET is a much better option than YIP. The customer base that would be more likely to chose G4 is more concentrated around DET. Even MTC would be better than YIP.


QUIT IT! Allegiant is a LOW COST airline, they don't want to PAY THE FEES required at the larger airports. In STL they fly into MidAmerica, not Lambert, in Chicago they fly into Rockford. Example of a BIG and MEDIUM sized cities.

You RUIN every single discussion in here, and on other threads, with your constant whining. Please, for the sake and reputation of people in the Detroit area, be more OBJECTIVE and make prudent decisions before you post in here. And please learn how to use punctuation too!

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