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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:58 pm

winginit wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Star Alliance announced DTW-LHR $407 RT promotional fares. Sold out quickly. This was a pleasant surprise to many as we haven't seen similar fares in more than a decade or two.


Those are some of the lowest RT London fares I can recall seeing from any major alliance. They hardly cover the associated taxes! Was there a restrictive time window or were they funneled through a specific UA domestic hub?


https://slickdeals.net/f/12989323-detro ... BarV2Algo1

Departs Detroit (DTW): Tuesday and Wednesday beginning October 1 through December 4 and then again Tuesday and Wednesday from January 1 through February 25, 2020.
Returns Detroit (DTW) : Wide and good availability returns Tuesday through Friday through Feb 25, 2020.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:31 pm

compensateme wrote:
winginit wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Star Alliance announced DTW-LHR $407 RT promotional fares. Sold out quickly. This was a pleasant surprise to many as we haven't seen similar fares in more than a decade or two.


Those are some of the lowest RT London fares I can recall seeing from any major alliance. They hardly cover the associated taxes! Was there a restrictive time window or were they funneled through a specific UA domestic hub?


https://slickdeals.net/f/12989323-detro ... BarV2Algo1

Departs Detroit (DTW): Tuesday and Wednesday beginning October 1 through December 4 and then again Tuesday and Wednesday from January 1 through February 25, 2020.
Returns Detroit (DTW) : Wide and good availability returns Tuesday through Friday through Feb 25, 2020.


I know most people don't like to believe this but here is a comment from this article.

Nice deal for flying straight out of DTW but if you don't mind the drive I've found Toronto to be cheaper than ORD and DTW for flights to Europe 90% of the time - you just have to deal with the painstakingly slow driving in Canada to get to Pearson. (Seriously Ontario..how about upping that speed limit??)
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
winginit
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:56 pm

klm617 wrote:
I know most people don't like to believe this but here is a comment from this article.

Nice deal for flying straight out of DTW but if you don't mind the drive I've found Toronto to be cheaper than ORD and DTW for flights to Europe 90% of the time - you just have to deal with the painstakingly slow driving in Canada to get to Pearson. (Seriously Ontario..how about upping that speed limit??)


Why would most people not want to believe that air travel to Europe is cheaper out of YYZ when compared to DTW? YYZ is likely objectively cheaper in aggregate on account of YYZ having quadruple the transatlantic capacity that DTW has. Supply and demand.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:11 am

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
I know most people don't like to believe this but here is a comment from this article.

Nice deal for flying straight out of DTW but if you don't mind the drive I've found Toronto to be cheaper than ORD and DTW for flights to Europe 90% of the time - you just have to deal with the painstakingly slow driving in Canada to get to Pearson. (Seriously Ontario..how about upping that speed limit??)


Why would most people not want to believe that air travel to Europe is cheaper out of YYZ when compared to DTW? YYZ is likely objectively cheaper in aggregate on account of YYZ having quadruple the transatlantic capacity that DTW has. Supply and demand.


Exactly and there is supply in the Detroit market that is not being served and the airport is losing that revenue to YYZ and ORD and needs to get low cost competition into the market to recapture that traffic. Why should the people of Michigan have to drive 4 hours away to get an airfare that's within their budget just because the airport appears to be not targeting that type of service for the Detroit market And the proof that they are not is their less than stellar results for their efforts.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:18 am

It will be interesting to see what gems the WCAA comes away with from the Hannover meetings.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:29 pm

klm617 wrote:
It will be interesting to see what gems the WCAA comes away with from the Hannover meetings.
As a heads up these wont be immediate. The earliest something happens is August for a spring 2020 start.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:38 pm

winginit wrote:
...
Why would most people not want to believe that air travel to Europe is cheaper out of YYZ when compared to DTW? YYZ is likely objectively cheaper in aggregate on account of YYZ having quadruple the transatlantic capacity that DTW has. Supply and demand.


Supply and demand rules don't apply to captive markets. One airline controlling capacity and charging higher fares will curtail demand. I still remember 20 years back BA used to offer $499/week vacation packages to London.

Hopefully *A continues to offer such promotional fares.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:13 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
winginit wrote:
...
Why would most people not want to believe that air travel to Europe is cheaper out of YYZ when compared to DTW? YYZ is likely objectively cheaper in aggregate on account of YYZ having quadruple the transatlantic capacity that DTW has. Supply and demand.


Supply and demand rules don't apply to captive markets. One airline controlling capacity and charging higher fares will curtail demand. I still remember 20 years back BA used to offer $499/week vacation packages to London.

Hopefully *A continues to offer such promotional fares.



It's interesting that you mention that as I took one of those flights on BA and spent a week in London.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:02 pm

flymco753 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
It will be interesting to see what gems the WCAA comes away with from the Hannover meetings.
As a heads up these wont be immediate. The earliest something happens is August for a spring 2020 start.


Understood I suspect that DTW will come out of those meetings with at least two new European routes for summer 2020 and one new carrier anything above that will be a bonus.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:06 pm

klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
It will be interesting to see what gems the WCAA comes away with from the Hannover meetings.
As a heads up these wont be immediate. The earliest something happens is August for a spring 2020 start.


Understood I suspect that DTW will come out of those meetings with at least two new European routes for summer 2020 and one new carrier anything above that will be a bonus.
I would say this is a very reasonable hypothesis. Probably either EI or FI with FI the most likely and perhaps a new international DL route like SJO or BCN.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:57 pm

flymco753 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
As a heads up these wont be immediate. The earliest something happens is August for a spring 2020 start.


Understood I suspect that DTW will come out of those meetings with at least two new European routes for summer 2020 and one new carrier anything above that will be a bonus.
I would say this is a very reasonable hypothesis. Probably either EI or FI with FI the most likely and perhaps a new international DL route like SJO or BCN.


Well here is what I see as possibilities

FI DTW-KEF
EI DTW-DUB
DL DTW-MAN/DUS or maybe BCN
LH DTW-MUC.
AA DTW-LHR


The first two should be givens but as we know the airport treads very lightly when it comes to aggressively perusing new entrants that would compete with Delta and impact their yields negatively but as I have said that would not be the case because EI and FI would bring back the leakage customers that are lost to YYZ, YQG and ORD. Plus we now have the entire state of Ohio as a customer base to draw from with low cost service to Europe that wasn't the case last year. 4 weekly to DUB and 4 weekly to KEF is without question doable.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
winginit
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:08 pm

I'm confused klm. Here's what you said, one week ago, in this thread:

klm617 wrote:
I really don't see EI being interested in Detroit.


and then here's what you said, today, in this thread...

klm617 wrote:
Well here is what I see as possibilities

FI DTW-KEF
EI DTW-DUB
...

The first two should be givens...


So which is it? Do you think EI is interested in DTW or not?
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:32 pm

winginit wrote:
I'm confused klm. Here's what you said, one week ago, in this thread:

klm617 wrote:
I really don't see EI being interested in Detroit.


and then here's what you said, today, in this thread...

klm617 wrote:
Well here is what I see as possibilities

FI DTW-KEF
EI DTW-DUB
...

The first two should be givens...


So which is it? Do you think EI is interested in DTW or not?


I think Detroit should be a given in the minds of EI but I don't think it really is a top priority for them. So I think they are going to pass on Detroit when it really should be on their very short list like their 2020 summer list. But we all know that potentential means nothing her at DTW it only maters in the big markets even when those routes lose money.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:36 pm

flymco753 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
As a heads up these wont be immediate. The earliest something happens is August for a spring 2020 start.


Understood I suspect that DTW will come out of those meetings with at least two new European routes for summer 2020 and one new carrier anything above that will be a bonus.
I would say this is a very reasonable hypothesis. Probably either EI or FI with FI the most likely and perhaps a new international DL route like SJO or BCN.


Actually I think a DTW-SJO route would be best served by NK rather than Delta. More attractive pricing on a new route that would stimulate growth. I really think when it comes to adds at DTW Delta should be put on the back burner because they are really going to only do what benefits them they really don't care about the market and their customers. With Delta most of the time any add is balanced out with a like subtraction. So let Delta do what it wants and work with NK and other new international entrants.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
SteelChair
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:47 pm

klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
klm617 wrote:

Understood I suspect that DTW will come out of those meetings with at least two new European routes for summer 2020 and one new carrier anything above that will be a bonus.
I would say this is a very reasonable hypothesis. Probably either EI or FI with FI the most likely and perhaps a new international DL route like SJO or BCN.


Actually I think a DTW-SJO route would be best served by NK rather than Delta. More attractive pricing on a new route that would stimulate growth. I really think when it comes to adds at DTW Delta should be put on the back burner because they are really going to only do what benefits them they really don't care about the market and their customers. With Delta most of the time any add is balanced out with a like subtraction. So let Delta do what it wants and work with NK and other new international entrants.


"They really don't care about the market and their customers"

Wouldn't it be in Delta's best interest to put the flights where the demand is, ie., where the customers want to go?
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:56 pm

SteelChair wrote:
klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
I would say this is a very reasonable hypothesis. Probably either EI or FI with FI the most likely and perhaps a new international DL route like SJO or BCN.


Actually I think a DTW-SJO route would be best served by NK rather than Delta. More attractive pricing on a new route that would stimulate growth. I really think when it comes to adds at DTW Delta should be put on the back burner because they are really going to only do what benefits them they really don't care about the market and their customers. With Delta most of the time any add is balanced out with a like subtraction. So let Delta do what it wants and work with NK and other new international entrants.


"They really don't care about the market and their customers"

Wouldn't it be in Delta's best interest to put the flights where the demand is, ie., where the customers want to go?


But they don't do that that's the problem. If it hurts their demand at other hubs they will not add the route or even capacity. DTW-JAX proved that and DTW-SRQ is the same way. The transfer passengers from DTW help to fill their hourly nonstops out of ATL.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
winginit
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:21 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Wouldn't it be in Delta's best interest to put the flights where the demand is, ie., where the customers want to go?


So long as it's profitable demand. There's virtually infinite demand to go from Point A to Point B for $1, but that's not profitable. Such is their duty to shareholders - maximizing shareholder wealth.

klm617 wrote:
But they don't do that that's the problem. If it hurts their demand at other hubs they will not add the route or even capacity. DTW-JAX proved that and DTW-SRQ is the same way. The transfer passengers from DTW help to fill their hourly nonstops out of ATL.


Correct, which tells us that the ATL traffic is more profitable, which we also already know.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:47 pm

winginit wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Wouldn't it be in Delta's best interest to put the flights where the demand is, ie., where the customers want to go?


So long as it's profitable demand. There's virtually infinite demand to go from Point A to Point B for $1, but that's not profitable. Such is their duty to shareholders - maximizing shareholder wealth.

klm617 wrote:
But they don't do that that's the problem. If it hurts their demand at other hubs they will not add the route or even capacity. DTW-JAX proved that and DTW-SRQ is the same way. The transfer passengers from DTW help to fill their hourly nonstops out of ATL.


Correct, which tells us that the ATL traffic is more profitable, which we also already know.


I intended that profitabilty was a given in my post. If there are places they can profitabily fly to out of their hubs, and they aren't doing it, then they aren't doing their jobs. But we know they are the most profitable airline in the world right now, so....if moving resources (seats) to other markets decreases profitability, then they won't do that. I'm sure they want all of their hubs to succeed, else they wouldn't be hubs.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:06 pm

winginit wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Wouldn't it be in Delta's best interest to put the flights where the demand is, ie., where the customers want to go?


So long as it's profitable demand. There's virtually infinite demand to go from Point A to Point B for $1, but that's not profitable. Such is their duty to shareholders - maximizing shareholder wealth.

klm617 wrote:
But they don't do that that's the problem. If it hurts their demand at other hubs they will not add the route or even capacity. DTW-JAX proved that and DTW-SRQ is the same way. The transfer passengers from DTW help to fill their hourly nonstops out of ATL.


Correct, which tells us that the ATL traffic is more profitable, which we also already know.


No it doesn't what it tells us is that ATL needs the feed from Detroit to make those flights more profitable it says nothing about the profitability of a flight from Detroit from point A to point B again Jacksonville proves that. Why all of a sudden does a flight only support a CR7 and when a competitor comes in all of a sudden 2 mainline flights are profitable. It means it was profitable all the time and Delta used Detroit traffic to prop up ATL-JAX otherwise they would have just laughed at NK and kept the CR7 on the route.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:15 pm

The North Terminal will be receiving all new concessions, sans McDonald's. FUN FACT #1: The same persons who own the North Terminal McD's also own the Midfield Terminal McD's, as well as the Ghetto McD's off of Merriman Road (across from QuickPark). FUN FACT #2: The McD's in the North and Midfield Terminals are among the few McD's in the nation to serve Pepsi products.

One of the new restaurants will be a Chick-fil-A. Recently, both SAT and BUF rejected Chick-fil-A, due to its anti-LGBT support. IMO, Chick-fil-A is overpriced and overhyped, and we already have one (in the Midfield Terminal) … and like all Chick-fil-As, it's closed on Sundays! Let's petition the airport to replace it with a Raising Cane's, which offers better food - and more of it - for a lower price. And it's open on Sundays :). Raising Cane's could make its introduction to Metro Detroit through the airport, much like Chick-fil-A did. Then its second location can be in Somerset Mall, just because. :bouncy:

Or maybe even a White Castle. I'm really, really disappointed Krystal left ATL. If you were stuck flying WN via ATL and the plane wasn't completely full, a bag of Krystal burgers assured you'd have your own row...
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
dtw9
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:46 pm

What they need are Burgers from Millers bar, Mexican from the El Nibble Nook and BBQ from Slow’s or the Boneyard
Last edited by dtw9 on Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:49 pm

compensateme wrote:
The North Terminal will be receiving all new concessions, sans McDonald's. FUN FACT #1: The same persons who own the North Terminal McD's also own the Midfield Terminal McD's, as well as the Ghetto McD's off of Merriman Road (across from QuickPark). FUN FACT #2: The McD's in the North and Midfield Terminals are among the few McD's in the nation to serve Pepsi products.

One of the new restaurants will be a Chick-fil-A. Recently, both SAT and BUF rejected Chick-fil-A, due to its anti-LGBT support. IMO, Chick-fil-A is overpriced and overhyped, and we already have one (in the Midfield Terminal) … and like all Chick-fil-As, it's closed on Sundays! Let's petition the airport to replace it with a Raising Cane's, which offers better food - and more of it - for a lower price. And it's open on Sundays :). Raising Cane's could make its introduction to Metro Detroit through the airport, much like Chick-fil-A did. Then its second location can be in Somerset Mall, just because. :bouncy:

Or maybe even a White Castle. I'm really, really disappointed Krystal left ATL. If you were stuck flying WN via ATL and the plane wasn't completely full, a bag of Krystal burgers assured you'd have your own row...


I agree my sister was going on and on about it she even invited me to join them at Somerset a couple of times which I declined but when at the airport the last time I tried and to be honest I agree it's nothing really special.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:50 pm

dtw9 wrote:
What they need are Burgers from Millers bar, Mexican from the El Nibble Nook and BBQ from Slow’s


If there isn't one the airport needs a Jets Pizza.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
dtw9
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:56 pm

klm617 wrote:
dtw9 wrote:
What they need are Burgers from Millers bar, Mexican from the El Nibble Nook and BBQ from Slow’s


If there isn't one the airport needs a Jets Pizza.



I’m sucking down a Jetzee steak and cheese and wings as I type
 
dtw9
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:32 pm

WOW airs A321 departed this afternoon. Headed to YUL
 
timf
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:25 pm

compensateme wrote:
FUN FACT #2: The McD's in the North and Midfield Terminals are among the few McD's in the nation to serve Pepsi products..


There haven't been Pepsi products in the airport McDonald's in over a year. The airport-wide Pepsi contract expired in 2017 and most of the concessionaires have switched to Coke since then.
 
beerbus
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:39 pm

klm617 wrote:
But they don't do that that's the problem. If it hurts their demand at other hubs they will not add the route or even capacity. DTW-JAX proved that and DTW-SRQ is the same way. The transfer passengers from DTW help to fill their hourly nonstops out of ATL.


This is not true- as it's been stated numerous times on this forum, DL has been adding available seat capacity out of DTW.

DTW is viewed as a strong asset in the DL route stucture.

As other's have stated:

1. They will add new markets from the DTW that meet revenue objectives and traffic projections. There ain't no dart board...... Route planners are incentivized to add profitable new city pairs or additional service in existing pairs. They are not rewarded for adding money losing segments.

2. DL will also add segments to defend their turf. It's a common industry practice. I have previously written how we went from 4 daily IND DTW to 9 to battle WN in the market. We were unwilling to give up market share we had spent time, money, and relationships to build. So DL adding DTW JAX service in the face of NK is an expected reaction. And the disappearance of those added flights can be expected to when the upstart leaves the market. I really don't understand what you expect DL to do- just roll over and say "take our marketshare- here it's yours NK" Heck NO!

And since the DL/NW merger the total number of DL seats in the DTW ATL market has dropped from what NW and DL offered individually. While DL does use ATL DTW to haul transfer traffic over ATL, the focus of that transfer traffic is serving markets out of ATL that are not strong enough to support PROFITABLE traffic on a N/S basis from DTW.

For example SRQ was a RASM dog when I worked in DTW Sales for NW. It was full of low-yield vacation traffic. Not much high yield business traffic. Even a full plane wasn't that profitable. So I don't blame DL for taking a $50,000,000 investment in a single aircraft and using it where it maximizes ROI.
 
royalswazi
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:17 pm

According to the voices in my head there will be free flights from Gothenburg to Detroit for former Saab employees wanting to punch GM managers in the head as punishment for killing the brand.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:22 pm

beerbus wrote:
klm617 wrote:
But they don't do that that's the problem. If it hurts their demand at other hubs they will not add the route or even capacity. DTW-JAX proved that and DTW-SRQ is the same way. The transfer passengers from DTW help to fill their hourly nonstops out of ATL.


This is not true- as it's been stated numerous times on this forum, DL has been adding available seat capacity out of DTW.

DTW is viewed as a strong asset in the DL route stucture.

As other's have stated:

1. They will add new markets from the DTW that meet revenue objectives and traffic projections. There ain't no dart board...... Route planners are incentivized to add profitable new city pairs or additional service in existing pairs. They are not rewarded for adding money losing segments.

2. DL will also add segments to defend their turf. It's a common industry practice. I have previously written how we went from 4 daily IND DTW to 9 to battle WN in the market. We were unwilling to give up market share we had spent time, money, and relationships to build. So DL adding DTW JAX service in the face of NK is an expected reaction. And the disappearance of those added flights can be expected to when the upstart leaves the market. I really don't understand what you expect DL to do- just roll over and say "take our marketshare- here it's yours NK" Heck NO!

And since the DL/NW merger the total number of DL seats in the DTW ATL market has dropped from what NW and DL offered individually. While DL does use ATL DTW to haul transfer traffic over ATL, the focus of that transfer traffic is serving markets out of ATL that are not strong enough to support PROFITABLE traffic on a N/S basis from DTW.

For example SRQ was a RASM dog when I worked in DTW Sales for NW. It was full of low-yield vacation traffic. Not much high yield business traffic. Even a full plane wasn't that profitable. So I don't blame DL for taking a $50,000,000 investment in a single aircraft and using it where it maximizes ROI.


Per your post that's why the airport needs to focus on other carriers rather than Delta and let Delta do what ever it wants. Why is it OK for other hubs to have low profit or no profit routes for Delta but Detroit only can have routes that generate a high rate of return. I understand what you're saying but that is not an across the board reality when it come to Delta network planning If your argument was true where was DL on DTW-KEF when WOW arrived on the scene or why is there no DTW-OAK because I get that those two would be unprofitable out of Detroit but that wasn't the case when they chocked of the market on DTW to JAX and the same is true for VPS and SRQ. What is the difference between JAX and SRQ out of Detroit as far as yields.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:30 pm

beerbus wrote:
klm617 wrote:
But they don't do that that's the problem. If it hurts their demand at other hubs they will not add the route or even capacity. DTW-JAX proved that and DTW-SRQ is the same way. The transfer passengers from DTW help to fill their hourly nonstops out of ATL.


This is not true- as it's been stated numerous times on this forum, DL has been adding available seat capacity out of DTW.

DTW is viewed as a strong asset in the DL route stucture.

As other's have stated:

1. They will add new markets from the DTW that meet revenue objectives and traffic projections. There ain't no dart board...... Route planners are incentivized to add profitable new city pairs or additional service in existing pairs. They are not rewarded for adding money losing segments.

2. DL will also add segments to defend their turf. It's a common industry practice. I have previously written how we went from 4 daily IND DTW to 9 to battle WN in the market. We were unwilling to give up market share we had spent time, money, and relationships to build. So DL adding DTW JAX service in the face of NK is an expected reaction. And the disappearance of those added flights can be expected to when the upstart leaves the market. I really don't understand what you expect DL to do- just roll over and say "take our marketshare- here it's yours NK" Heck NO!

And since the DL/NW merger the total number of DL seats in the DTW ATL market has dropped from what NW and DL offered individually. While DL does use ATL DTW to haul transfer traffic over ATL, the focus of that transfer traffic is serving markets out of ATL that are not strong enough to support PROFITABLE traffic on a N/S basis from DTW.

For example SRQ was a RASM dog when I worked in DTW Sales for NW. It was full of low-yield vacation traffic. Not much high yield business traffic. Even a full plane wasn't that profitable. So I don't blame DL for taking a $50,000,000 investment in a single aircraft and using it where it maximizes ROI.


If DTW-SRQ was such a dog for NW why bother operating it they could have just moved that traffic over the MEM hub and not bother operating it at all.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
sumeetc2
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:34 am

dtw9 wrote:
WOW airs A321 departed this afternoon. Headed to YUL

Getting repainted for NK apparently at YMX.
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:23 am

sumeetc2 wrote:
dtw9 wrote:
WOW airs A321 departed this afternoon. Headed to YUL

Getting repainted for NK apparently at YMX.

Wow (no pun intended) the change over is happening fast!
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:41 pm

Some notes regarding DL's summer schedule until September.

Think 757 & A321, because its going to become a very common sight as 737 flying shifts west to shift 717s back to the east. By aircraft family, the A320 family will be the most common family of aircraft.

717s will remain a common sight as the MD's leave.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:07 pm

sumeetc2 wrote:
dtw9 wrote:
WOW airs A321 departed this afternoon. Headed to YUL

Getting repainted for NK apparently at YMX.



It's actually going to Air Canada.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
beerbus
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:43 pm

klm617 wrote:
If DTW-SRQ was such a dog for NW why bother operating it they could have just moved that traffic over the MEM hub and not bother operating it at all.


NW did not, at least in the 18 years I worked there, fly MEM SRQ. Again, as previously stated, that's because yield was lousy. It was never flown from MSP either to my knowledge.

Pre-911 NW flew a couple a day for a couple of months each winter. Some years once daily in the summer.

After 911, the summer flights were canned. Just the 2x SRQ DTW in the "season". That's it. No MSP or MEM.

DL operated four daily CRJ's to CVG, and 5x 757 & 1x CR7 to ATL. 6 Mad dogs currently ATL SRQ.

I do remember the JAX yields being much better- You have significant industry like CSX, and a lot of DOD related business. It was a pretty good market.
 
kavok
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:04 pm

Enilria’s weekly OAG thread shows that DTW-HNL has been loaded for January 2020. I mention that because many, myself included, wondered if the route would survive past Summer 2019. Glad to see it is reappearing in the winter.
 
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tb727
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:31 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
sumeetc2 wrote:
dtw9 wrote:
WOW airs A321 departed this afternoon. Headed to YUL

Getting repainted for NK apparently at YMX.

Wow (no pun intended) the change over is happening fast!


Just the fact that there are 3, technically 4 different liveries at NK, tells me that this is false lol
Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:09 pm

kavok wrote:
Enilria’s weekly OAG thread shows that DTW-HNL has been loaded for January 2020. I mention that because many, myself included, wondered if the route would survive past Summer 2019. Glad to see it is reappearing in the winter.


I agree with you I was also shocked to see it added for January. Wonder if it's just going to operate on a very limited basis.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:45 pm

klm617 wrote:
kavok wrote:
Enilria’s weekly OAG thread shows that DTW-HNL has been loaded for January 2020. I mention that because many, myself included, wondered if the route would survive past Summer 2019. Glad to see it is reappearing in the winter.


I agree with you I was also shocked to see it added for January. Wonder if it's just going to operate on a very limited basis.
3x weekly on the 333.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:16 pm

In the latest OAG thread DL reduces DTW-STL to 4 daily only. That's pretty sad being this is a major hub for Delta looks like NK needs to jump in on Detroit St. Louis to pick up the slack. And the redirection of traffic continues away from Detroit.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
dtw9
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:27 pm

klm617 wrote:
In the latest OAG thread DL reduces DTW-STL to 4 daily only. That's pretty sad being this is a major hub for Delta looks like NK needs to jump in on Detroit St. Louis to pick up the slack. And the redirection of traffic continues away from Detroit.


I just looked through the end of the year. Delta’s booking a total of 6 flights a day
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:33 pm

klm617 wrote:
In the latest OAG thread DL reduces DTW-STL to 4 daily only. That's pretty sad being this is a major hub for Delta looks like NK needs to jump in on Detroit St. Louis to pick up the slack. And the redirection of traffic continues away from Detroit.

Before you go and proclaim the sky is always falling, its helpful to take a step back and look behind the numbers.

Enilria's OAG report only provides a daily average of number of flights per day. This does not indicate anything about the number of actual seats or does about day-of-the-week variation in the number of flights.

Currently DL flies DTW-STL primarily with GoJet and the token mainline 717 flight. Based on what was loaded for October, if it holds true has the route becoming all mainline and actually results in an increase in capacity. Frequency loss is really only 1 per weekday but putting 100 more seats in the market per day.

STL is a crew and maintenance base for GoJets and historically one of the reasons they have had to fly so many RJs on the route.

April:
Weekday Mon-Fri; 6x - 4x CR7, 1x CR9, 1x 717 (~450 seats)
Sat: 3x - 2x CR7, 1x CR9 (~208 seats)
Sun: 5x - 4x CR7, 1x CR9 (~340 seats)

October:
Weekday Mon-Fri; 5x - 5x 717 (Oct 1-25, 4x - 717 (Oct 28-31) (~550 seats / ~440 seats)
Sat: 3x - 3x 717 (~330 seats)
Sun: 5x - 5x 717 (~550 seats)
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:08 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
klm617 wrote:
In the latest OAG thread DL reduces DTW-STL to 4 daily only. That's pretty sad being this is a major hub for Delta looks like NK needs to jump in on Detroit St. Louis to pick up the slack. And the redirection of traffic continues away from Detroit.

Before you go and proclaim the sky is always falling, its helpful to take a step back and look behind the numbers.

Enilria's OAG report only provides a daily average of number of flights per day. This does not indicate anything about the number of actual seats or does about day-of-the-week variation in the number of flights.

Currently DL flies DTW-STL primarily with GoJet and the token mainline 717 flight. Based on what was loaded for October, if it holds true has the route becoming all mainline and actually results in an increase in capacity. Frequency loss is really only 1 per weekday but putting 100 more seats in the market per day.

STL is a crew and maintenance base for GoJets and historically one of the reasons they have had to fly so many RJs on the route.

April:
Weekday Mon-Fri; 6x - 4x CR7, 1x CR9, 1x 717 (~450 seats)
Sat: 3x - 2x CR7, 1x CR9 (~208 seats)
Sun: 5x - 4x CR7, 1x CR9 (~340 seats)

October:
Weekday Mon-Fri; 5x - 5x 717 (Oct 1-25, 4x - 717 (Oct 28-31) (~550 seats / ~440 seats)
Sat: 3x - 3x 717 (~330 seats)
Sun: 5x - 5x 717 (~550 seats)



But when frequency is cut that makes less options for the traveler. Say I'm coming out of LGA and miss my STL connection that means that I have less chance of getting a connecting flight earlier. I may have to wait 6 hours now instead of four making DTW a less attractive option. I think what Delta is doing here is making DTW a more of an O/D operation rather than a true hub where as MSP is being more set up for connection traffic as there are far more east coast destinations that over fly DTW to get to MSP than there are West coast destinations out of DTW that over fly MSP. Again all designed to keep Detroit from rising in the airport rankings as far as flights and passengers go. Delta could have left STL at 5 daily and upped them all to 717. Heck even when TWA had no hub in STL they had more capacity on DTW-STL than Delta has now.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:32 pm

klm617 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
klm617 wrote:
In the latest OAG thread DL reduces DTW-STL to 4 daily only. That's pretty sad being this is a major hub for Delta looks like NK needs to jump in on Detroit St. Louis to pick up the slack. And the redirection of traffic continues away from Detroit.

Before you go and proclaim the sky is always falling, its helpful to take a step back and look behind the numbers.

Enilria's OAG report only provides a daily average of number of flights per day. This does not indicate anything about the number of actual seats or does about day-of-the-week variation in the number of flights.

Currently DL flies DTW-STL primarily with GoJet and the token mainline 717 flight. Based on what was loaded for October, if it holds true has the route becoming all mainline and actually results in an increase in capacity. Frequency loss is really only 1 per weekday but putting 100 more seats in the market per day.

STL is a crew and maintenance base for GoJets and historically one of the reasons they have had to fly so many RJs on the route.

April:
Weekday Mon-Fri; 6x - 4x CR7, 1x CR9, 1x 717 (~450 seats)
Sat: 3x - 2x CR7, 1x CR9 (~208 seats)
Sun: 5x - 4x CR7, 1x CR9 (~340 seats)

October:
Weekday Mon-Fri; 5x - 5x 717 (Oct 1-25, 4x - 717 (Oct 28-31) (~550 seats / ~440 seats)
Sat: 3x - 3x 717 (~330 seats)
Sun: 5x - 5x 717 (~550 seats)



But when frequency is cut that makes less options for the traveler. Say I'm coming out of LGA and miss my STL connection that means that I have less chance of getting a connecting flight earlier. I may have to wait 6 hours now instead of four making DTW a less attractive option. I think what Delta is doing here is making DTW a more of an O/D operation rather than a true hub where as MSP is being more set up for connection traffic as there are far more east coast destinations that over fly DTW to get to MSP than there are West coast destinations out of DTW that over fly MSP. Again all designed to keep Detroit from rising in the airport rankings as far as flights and passengers go. Delta could have left STL at 5 daily and upped them all to 717. Heck even when TWA had no hub in STL they had more capacity on DTW-STL than Delta has now.
Theyll strategically re time the flights to make them more accessible. If you miss your connection you'll just have to wait an extra hour to get on a plane with more seats they can fill. Its smart to see them make this move actually.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
Jshank83
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:35 am

klm617 wrote:
In the latest OAG thread DL reduces DTW-STL to 4 daily only. That's pretty sad being this is a major hub for Delta looks like NK needs to jump in on Detroit St. Louis to pick up the slack. And the redirection of traffic continues away from Detroit.


FWIW WN is adding another STL-DTW flight starting in June. So that probably doesn't help NKs chances of starting it.
 
winginit
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:37 am

klm617 wrote:
Again all designed to keep Detroit from rising in the airport rankings as far as flights and passengers go.


Please clarify what you're saying, because it sounds as though your claim is that Delta is intentionally shifting traffic patterns at DTW to alter DTW's standings in the 'airport rankings'. Is that your claim? Are you of the opinion that anyone: Delta, or any carrier, or even the WCAA or the City of Detroit, cares about 'airport rankings' besides maybe a select group of enthusiasts? Why do these 'airport rankings' that you speak of matter to anyone?

As for DTW-STL, you put far too much stock into Enrilia's post as it foregoes the broader context. The data will show you that DL has actually increased DTW-STL frequencies in 2019 compared to 2018 while keeping overall capacity more or less flat. Data below straight from OAG comparing the full year 2019 to the full year 2018.

DL, DTW-STL

2019 Frequencies: 3,729
2018 Frequencies: 3,638
YoY Change: 91 additional frequencies

2019 Seats: 303,116 seats
2018 Seats: 304,016 seats
YoY Change: 900 fewer seats over the course of the year
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:53 am

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Again all designed to keep Detroit from rising in the airport rankings as far as flights and passengers go.


Please clarify what you're saying, because it sounds as though your claim is that Delta is intentionally shifting traffic patterns at DTW to alter DTW's standings in the 'airport rankings'. Is that your claim? Are you of the opinion that anyone: Delta, or any carrier, or even the WCAA or the City of Detroit, cares about 'airport rankings' besides maybe a select group of enthusiasts? Why do these 'airport rankings' that you speak of matter to anyone?

As for DTW-STL, you put far too much stock into Enrilia's post as it foregoes the broader context. The data will show you that DL has actually increased DTW-STL frequencies in 2019 compared to 2018 while keeping overall capacity more or less flat. Data below straight from OAG comparing the full year 2019 to the full year 2018.

DL, DTW-STL

2019 Frequencies: 3,729
2018 Frequencies: 3,638
YoY Change: 91 additional frequencies

2019 Seats: 303,116 seats
2018 Seats: 304,016 seats
YoY Change: 900 fewer seats over the course of the year



Yes Delta is deliberately routing traffic away from Detroit over ATL by offering a less than attractive schedule out of STL to DTW. As far as your numbers they are all invalid because 2019 hasn't happened yet. Come back to me in January 2020 and then you can back your numbers then. As of now you can only compare 2017 to 2018. His data comes directly from the OAG just like where you get yours so what makes his information less valid than yours ?
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:18 am

So while we are continuing down this sky-is-falling rabbit hole about DTW-STL, where I've already shown the revised schedule as it is now in October actually increases the number of seats in the market and goes all mainline.

Here is the departures for Monday 4/20/19:
0840 CR7
1225 CR7
1540 CR7
1745 717
2012 CR9
2220 CR7

Here is the newly loaded schedule for Monday 10/21/19:
0849 717
1230 717
1540 717
1742 717
2013 717

So basically all they did was combine the last departure of the evening, which they often do seasonally anyways. The rest of the operating day is the same schedule.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:23 am

Since it's most likely we'll be waking up to a locked thread tomorrow, thank y'all for teaching me about the Detroit market. I've learned quite a bit and I intend to continue learning about it.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 7267
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:53 am

This is why we can’t have nice things, it was fun while it lasted.

We can always go to the Michigan thread or always start one for DET PTK YIP or FNT

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