EBiafore99
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:54 pm

For reference about DTW and it's "hub" status. consider this. Per wiki, the highest passenger count at DTW was in 2005 at 36.4 million. Since then, it dropped to a low of 31.4 in 2009 and was 35.2 in 2018. So, DTW is now 1.1 away from its high. Is it stellar? No. But, slice and dice it however you want, DTW is not that far off from it's highest number as a NW hub. Just because DL chooses to run the hub with fewer flights really doesn't mean much. It's the seat numbers that count. And I believe in earlier posts, its been shown DL is increasing seats in DTW.

Also, why are we still comparing DTW to ATL. ATL is the mothership. It will always be the mothership. DTW has a portfolio of 3-4x AMS, 2-3x CDG, 1-2x LHR, 1x FRA, 4-5x to Asia and a growing Mexico portfolio through AeroMexico. I'd say we are well off. Do we pay more because DL has a hub here? Probably. But that premium is because we can fly to a lot of places nonstop with several flight options a day. Besides, at least our hub airline is high in customer satisfaction and on-time performance. Can't say that about some other airlines.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:03 pm

REgarding DCA, AA has upgauged to all E175, up from CRJ's 2 years ago. In October there will be 6 flights, 4 in which are A321's. This is a net increase in seats.

The story to be told is how well these secondary Florida services are going to do. JAX at 2x daily with the A320 and PBI with the A320 and SRQ going nearly year round on the A320.

SRQ is hands down, points territory hence why DL only runs it once weekly, so don't be too surprised to see a low cost carrier enter that market. Next summer it will most likely have an off daily ULCC and a Saturday DL. JAX became very low yielding yet it seems both NK and DL are running full. I'm surprised NK didn't give PBI a try through the summer only a few days a week. The service seemed to be full as well as the MBJ days of operation. I think PUJ and MBJ are both mileage burners so it makes it hard to justify competing against NK where they can get those passengers.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:40 pm

EBiafore99 wrote:
For reference about DTW and it's "hub" status. consider this. Per wiki, the highest passenger count at DTW was in 2005 at 36.4 million. Since then, it dropped to a low of 31.4 in 2009 and was 35.2 in 2018. So, DTW is now 1.1 away from its high. Is it stellar? No. But, slice and dice it however you want, DTW is not that far off from it's highest number as a NW hub. Just because DL chooses to run the hub with fewer flights really doesn't mean much. It's the seat numbers that count. And I believe in earlier posts, its been shown DL is increasing seats in DTW.

Also, why are we still comparing DTW to ATL. ATL is the mothership. It will always be the mothership. DTW has a portfolio of 3-4x AMS, 2-3x CDG, 1-2x LHR, 1x FRA, 4-5x to Asia and a growing Mexico portfolio through AeroMexico. I'd say we are well off. Do we pay more because DL has a hub here? Probably. But that premium is because we can fly to a lot of places nonstop with several flight options a day. Besides, at least our hub airline is high in customer satisfaction and on-time performance. Can't say that about some other airlines.


Again while all that is true that number is from 14 years ago compare that number to the other hubs that were active 14 years ago and see how they all have fared in today's growing commercial aviation market. DTW still has now low coast airline to Europe and every airport that was is it's class when those 2005 numbers has at least one European LCC and in most cases those airports have 2. I understand that ATL is the mothership but our status as and airport has not changed in 14 years. What good is being able to fly nonstop to all those destinations if for the most part the average working stiff can't afford a ticket. Let's face it year round DTW only has NS service to only AMS, CDG, FRA and LHR less than CVG had in it's hay day as a hub and again every major metropolitan area is also linked to those 4 so nothing earth shattering there. Seat numbers may matter as the industry rule of thumb but when it comes to ranking airports the unit of measure is flights and enplanements not seats. I'm sorry the WCAA in it's current form lacks vision I also like to bring up that Michigan is the automotive manufacturing capitol of the United States yet it doesn't have one single dedicated bulk cargo flight. You would thing that with all the cargo flowing between Detroit and Korea and China one carrier would have a direct link to either PVG, PEK and ICN. Keep in mind also that being on of Delta's largest stations to Asia it has the least amount of seats to ICN and was reduced after the JV was put into place. So no Detroit is not faring that good in the grand scheme of things.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:45 pm

EBiafore99 wrote:
For reference about DTW and it's "hub" status. consider this. Per wiki, the highest passenger count at DTW was in 2005 at 36.4 million. Since then, it dropped to a low of 31.4 in 2009 and was 35.2 in 2018. So, DTW is now 1.1 away from its high. Is it stellar? No. But, slice and dice it however you want, DTW is not that far off from it's highest number as a NW hub. Just because DL chooses to run the hub with fewer flights really doesn't mean much. It's the seat numbers that count. And I believe in earlier posts, its been shown DL is increasing seats in DTW.

Also, why are we still comparing DTW to ATL. ATL is the mothership. It will always be the mothership. DTW has a portfolio of 3-4x AMS, 2-3x CDG, 1-2x LHR, 1x FRA, 4-5x to Asia and a growing Mexico portfolio through AeroMexico. I'd say we are well off. Do we pay more because DL has a hub here? Probably. But that premium is because we can fly to a lot of places nonstop with several flight options a day. Besides, at least our hub airline is high in customer satisfaction and on-time performance. Can't say that about some other airlines.


As far as LCCs go to Europe with minimal Europe service

PDX-2
MSP-3
DEN-2
PHL-2
TPA-2
SEA-3

Detroit ZERO
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
EBiafore99
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:17 pm

You're right, DTW doesn't have a LCC to Europe. I know in earlier DTW posts, many reasoned it was because DTW doesn't offer incentives for LCC's.

I am probably an outlier on this, but if the only way an LCC will come to DTW is if it gets an incentive, then I would rather DTW say no way. If an airport gives an incentive, it comes from landing fees, parking fees, etc. that I pay when I use DL, AA, etc. at the airport. Why should I subsidize an LCC so someone else can get the cheap fare they think they "deserve". If an LCC can provide lower fares to Europe without a subsidy from the airport, I'm all for it. But, if the LCC needs a subsidy from the airport in order to make a profit on the rock bottom fares, the take a hike. With all of the LCC's failing these days, that may indicate this subsidy concept doesn't work in the long run. What a surprise.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:08 pm

DTW's twitter page posted a picture showing the plans for the new deice and RON hardstand pads where the old terminal will used to have been. I looked over the picture and saw that there are glycol tanks sitting right on top of site 3B, the site where the FAA has approved for a new ATCT. I wonder if the FAA scrapped plans to put up a new tower, the one that is currently standing can not be fixed so its usable life is basically over due to the mold contamination.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
portcolumbus
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:28 pm

flymco753 wrote:
I wonder if the FAA scrapped plans to put up a new tower, the one that is currently standing can not be fixed so its usable life is basically over due to the mold contamination.


FAA spent $25M remediating mold 5 or so years ago when I worked there, basically gutted the place. Is it still a problem?
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:36 pm

EBiafore99 wrote:
You're right, DTW doesn't have a LCC to Europe. I know in earlier DTW posts, many reasoned it was because DTW doesn't offer incentives for LCC's.

I am probably an outlier on this, but if the only way an LCC will come to DTW is if it gets an incentive, then I would rather DTW say no way. If an airport gives an incentive, it comes from landing fees, parking fees, etc. that I pay when I use DL, AA, etc. at the airport. Why should I subsidize an LCC so someone else can get the cheap fare they think they "deserve". If an LCC can provide lower fares to Europe without a subsidy from the airport, I'm all for it. But, if the LCC needs a subsidy from the airport in order to make a profit on the rock bottom fares, the take a hike. With all of the LCC's failing these days, that may indicate this subsidy concept doesn't work in the long run. What a surprise.


That excuse is getting old. The incentive is for airports that can't really support TATL service like MCI, PIT, CLE and the like Detroit can sustain international service without the monies as we look at the network that Delta and Lufthansa have built in Detroit. FI and EI are not fly by night operations the have a long history and I doubt they are going any where. What exactly would you like your landing fees used for. I myself have no problem using landing fees to grow the market and give Detroit more options in a very captive market with on big bully that dictates everything that happens in said market. Once again I believe that opinion lacks vision in every other industry in our state companies are given tax breaks to open up opportunities so why is it not OK to use you user fees to facilitate then when our state government does exactly the same to bring new business to the state. Aer Lingus and Icelandair are no different just bring new business opportunities into our state. So with that being said I welcome investment that would bring opportunities into the state that would help the people that are footing the bill for all these corporate tax loopholes. If the airport is unable or unwilling to pony up with the cash than that's on the WCAA to show that Detroit can work for them without the incentives as I have said before MSP has 2 LCC carriers to Europe with NO year round international service outside of Skyteam EVERY international carrier can at DTW sustains year round service even the carriers outside of Skyteam so you tell me why the airport can land at least one carrier on it's own merrit when MSP has 3 and PDX has 2.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:39 pm

EBiafore99 wrote:
You're right, DTW doesn't have a LCC to Europe. I know in earlier DTW posts, many reasoned it was because DTW doesn't offer incentives for LCC's.

I am probably an outlier on this, but if the only way an LCC will come to DTW is if it gets an incentive, then I would rather DTW say no way. If an airport gives an incentive, it comes from landing fees, parking fees, etc. that I pay when I use DL, AA, etc. at the airport. Why should I subsidize an LCC so someone else can get the cheap fare they think they "deserve". If an LCC can provide lower fares to Europe without a subsidy from the airport, I'm all for it. But, if the LCC needs a subsidy from the airport in order to make a profit on the rock bottom fares, the take a hike. With all of the LCC's failing these days, that may indicate this subsidy concept doesn't work in the long run. What a surprise.


The reason is plane and simple the airport has no real desire to bring anyone in here that might have the abilty to impact Delta in a negative way but the joke is the passenger market that these carriers would create wouldn't fly Delta anyway because they are either driving to ORD or YYZ or they can't afford to fly. Guess what you're paying that incentive at any airport you fly into that offers it so your argument doesn't hold water unless you are refusing to fly into those airports that give incentives.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
portcolumbus
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:48 pm

klm617 wrote:
The reason is plane and simple the airport has no real desire to bring anyone in here that might have the abilty to impact Delta in a negative way but the joke is the passenger market that these carriers would create wouldn't fly Delta anyway because they are either driving to ORD or YYZ or they can't afford to fly.


Oh my God, it's the same thing OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN. It's not some giant conspiracy. The airport isn't turning carriers away. DTW is well-served, end of story.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:55 pm

portcolumbus wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
I wonder if the FAA scrapped plans to put up a new tower, the one that is currently standing can not be fixed so its usable life is basically over due to the mold contamination.


FAA spent $25M remediating mold 5 or so years ago when I worked there, basically gutted the place. Is it still a problem?
According to the master plan:

"The Airport’s ATCT was constructed in 2002 and is located near the north end of the McNamara Terminal. The ATCT has a height of 250 feet and an observation height of 206 feet. The TRACON facility is located within the ATCT facility.

In 2012, the building was restored and underwent remediation for pervasive mold contamination. It was determined, however, that the ATCT will need to be replaced due to pervasive mold contamination of the building’s shaft and substructure. Four preferred locations were determined..."
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
winginit
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:06 pm

portcolumbus wrote:
klm617 wrote:
The reason is plane and simple the airport has no real desire to bring anyone in here that might have the abilty to impact Delta in a negative way but the joke is the passenger market that these carriers would create wouldn't fly Delta anyway because they are either driving to ORD or YYZ or they can't afford to fly.


Oh my God, it's the same thing OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN. It's not some giant conspiracy. The airport isn't turning carriers away. DTW is well-served, end of story.


:checkmark:

I am curious though...

klm617 wrote:
Seat numbers may matter as the industry rule of thumb but when it comes to ranking airports the unit of measure is flights and enplanements not seats.


'Rankings'. I'll ask again because you've refused to answer in the past, who cares about rankings? If the concern is airport revenue then say that, but you seem obsessed with 'rankings' just for the sake of some mythical prestige.
 
portcolumbus
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:06 pm

flymco753 wrote:
portcolumbus wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
I wonder if the FAA scrapped plans to put up a new tower, the one that is currently standing can not be fixed so its usable life is basically over due to the mold contamination.


FAA spent $25M remediating mold 5 or so years ago when I worked there, basically gutted the place. Is it still a problem?
According to the master plan:

"The Airport’s ATCT was constructed in 2002 and is located near the north end of the McNamara Terminal. The ATCT has a height of 250 feet and an observation height of 206 feet. The TRACON facility is located within the ATCT facility.

In 2012, the building was restored and underwent remediation for pervasive mold contamination. It was determined, however, that the ATCT will need to be replaced due to pervasive mold contamination of the building’s shaft and substructure. Four preferred locations were determined..."


Huh, interesting. Haven't heard about any further health issues (it WAS a problem before remediation). I know the new tower was slated for right around now, but haven't heard any updates on that either. The rumor was the TRACON would move to Howell where the FAA owns land and start absorbing some of the surrounding facilities like LAN, FNT and MBS, but again haven't heard any more since I left.
 
portcolumbus
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:19 pm

winginit wrote:
'Rankings'. I'll ask again because you've refused to answer in the past, who cares about rankings? If the concern is airport revenue then say that, but you seem obsessed with 'rankings' just for the sake of some mythical prestige.


I'm guessing it's pretty much like cheering for your NFL team to win the Super Bowl, only with airports. Unfortunately, DTW is just like the Lions in that they'll never make it to #1. And because of that, we'll get the pleasure of hearing about it daily.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:20 pm

portcolumbus wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
portcolumbus wrote:

FAA spent $25M remediating mold 5 or so years ago when I worked there, basically gutted the place. Is it still a problem?
According to the master plan:

"The Airport’s ATCT was constructed in 2002 and is located near the north end of the McNamara Terminal. The ATCT has a height of 250 feet and an observation height of 206 feet. The TRACON facility is located within the ATCT facility.

In 2012, the building was restored and underwent remediation for pervasive mold contamination. It was determined, however, that the ATCT will need to be replaced due to pervasive mold contamination of the building’s shaft and substructure. Four preferred locations were determined..."


Huh, interesting. Haven't heard about any further health issues (it WAS a problem before remediation). I know the new tower was slated for right around now, but haven't heard any updates on that either. The rumor was the TRACON would move to Howell where the FAA owns land and start absorbing some of the surrounding facilities like LAN, FNT and MBS, but again haven't heard any more since I left.
Interesting. Here's the link to the tweet I am talking about: https://twitter.com/DTWeetin/status/1118889128945422336

I zoomed into the picture they have and studied it fairly well and compared it to the master plan. This puts me under the impression that the FAA has scrapped plans for a new ATCT and that the mold issue has been resolved.

DTW will remain having one of the most boring and dark control towers among large airports. <-personal opinion
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
winginit
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:27 pm

flymco753 wrote:
I zoomed into the picture they have and studied it fairly well and compared it to the master plan. This puts me under the impression that the FAA has scrapped plans for a new ATCT and that the mold issue has been resolved.

DTW will remain having one of the most boring and dark control towers among large airports. <-personal opinion


That's really unfortunate. The airport is long overdue for a new one and is at this point lagging behind peers. Such a great facility deserves a matching tower.

Surprising they got that mold issue under control if true given how lengthy the back and forth was on that and what a pill mold abatement can be.
 
portcolumbus
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:29 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Interesting. Here's the link to the tweet I am talking about: https://twitter.com/DTWeetin/status/1118889128945422336

I zoomed into the picture they have and studied it fairly well and compared it to the master plan. This puts me under the impression that the FAA has scrapped plans for a new ATCT and that the mold issue has been resolved.

DTW will remain having one of the most boring and dark control towers among large airports. <-personal opinion


It was a design flaw where water was getting in up near the cab and then into the elevator shaft. I'm assuming they solved the issue before spending all that cash remediating, but it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:33 pm

portcolumbus wrote:
klm617 wrote:
The reason is plane and simple the airport has no real desire to bring anyone in here that might have the abilty to impact Delta in a negative way but the joke is the passenger market that these carriers would create wouldn't fly Delta anyway because they are either driving to ORD or YYZ or they can't afford to fly.


Oh my God, it's the same thing OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN. It's not some giant conspiracy. The airport isn't turning carriers away. DTW is well-served, end of story.


Well served how in what way. Maybe well served as far as Delta is concerned but not well served across the mainstream public. MSP, PHL, DEN, PDX, TPA now those are well served airports that cater to the entire cross section of the market. DTW is only well served at the high end.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:35 pm

portcolumbus wrote:
winginit wrote:
'Rankings'. I'll ask again because you've refused to answer in the past, who cares about rankings? If the concern is airport revenue then say that, but you seem obsessed with 'rankings' just for the sake of some mythical prestige.


I'm guessing it's pretty much like cheering for your NFL team to win the Super Bowl, only with airports. Unfortunately, DTW is just like the Lions in that they'll never make it to #1. And because of that, we'll get the pleasure of hearing about it daily.


Never expected them to be number one but as a major airport it should be at least keeping pace with commercial airline growth as other airports of it's size have.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:37 pm

winginit wrote:
portcolumbus wrote:
klm617 wrote:
The reason is plane and simple the airport has no real desire to bring anyone in here that might have the abilty to impact Delta in a negative way but the joke is the passenger market that these carriers would create wouldn't fly Delta anyway because they are either driving to ORD or YYZ or they can't afford to fly.


Oh my God, it's the same thing OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN. It's not some giant conspiracy. The airport isn't turning carriers away. DTW is well-served, end of story.


:checkmark:

I am curious though...

klm617 wrote:
Seat numbers may matter as the industry rule of thumb but when it comes to ranking airports the unit of measure is flights and enplanements not seats.


'Rankings'. I'll ask again because you've refused to answer in the past, who cares about rankings? If the concern is airport revenue then say that, but you seem obsessed with 'rankings' just for the sake of some mythical prestige.


If no one cares about rankings why publish them at all. By the way Delta cares about rankings because it continues to put it out there that ATL is their main hub the largest hub in the world and it's their hub so rankings matter.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
winginit
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:38 pm

klm617 wrote:
If no one cares about rankings why publish them at all.


Who publishes them? Wikipedia editors? Is this what you're talking about? If not, please provide a link because I genuinely don't know what you're talking about when you imply that airport rankings are 'published' as if it's an annual contest with prizes. Please enlighten me as I'm currently of the impression that these 'rankings' are just simple aggregations of publicly available data by enthusiasts, who are the only ones who care about these rankings in the same way that I care about my favorite sports team.
Last edited by winginit on Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:41 pm

portcolumbus wrote:
klm617 wrote:
The reason is plane and simple the airport has no real desire to bring anyone in here that might have the abilty to impact Delta in a negative way but the joke is the passenger market that these carriers would create wouldn't fly Delta anyway because they are either driving to ORD or YYZ or they can't afford to fly.


Oh my God, it's the same thing OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN. It's not some giant conspiracy. The airport isn't turning carriers away. DTW is well-served, end of story.


No they may not be turning anyone away but they aren't aggressively searching for alternatives to grow the market hence making it easier for Delta to run it's monopoly in Detroit with little or no competition. Again that's all well and good if the airport wants to protect Delta's status here but in turn Delta needs to grow the market as Northwest did when it had it's preferred status. You can't have it both ways you can't have the airport give you preferred status and then choke of the market.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:45 pm

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
If no one cares about rankings why publish them at all.


Who publishes them? Wikipedia editors? Is this what you're talking about? If not, please provide a link because I genuinely don't know what you're talking about when you imply that airport rankings are 'published' as if it's an annual contest with prizes. Please enlighten me as I'm currently of the impression that these 'rankings' are just simple aggregations of publicly available data by enthusiasts.


ACI does as an aviation consultant you should be aware of that fact and Delta tells us every time in their press release that ATL is the busiest and biggest hub in the world so Delta publishes it too.

https://airportscouncil.org/
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
portcolumbus
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:49 pm

klm617 wrote:
ACI does as an aviation consultant you should be aware of that fact and Delta tells us every time in their press release that ATL is the busiest and biggest hub in the world so Delta publishes it too.

https://airportscouncil.org/


I have no idea what you're getting at. Atlanta IS their biggest and busiest hub, that's just a simple fact. It's not a slight against Detroit or against you personally, which is how you seem to take it. This is so ridiculous.
 
winginit
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:56 pm

portcolumbus wrote:
klm617 wrote:
ACI does as an aviation consultant you should be aware of that fact and Delta tells us every time in their press release that ATL is the busiest and biggest hub in the world so Delta publishes it too.

https://airportscouncil.org/


I have no idea what you're getting at. Atlanta IS their biggest and busiest hub, that's just a simple fact. It's not a slight against Detroit or against you personally, which is how you seem to take it. This is so ridiculous.


So, as suspected, the only reason to care is to see how well your 'team' is doing against the other teams. I give up. He's in rare form today.
 
portcolumbus
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:59 pm

klm617 wrote:
No they may not be turning anyone away but they aren't aggressively searching for alternatives to grow the market hence making it easier for Delta to run it's monopoly in Detroit with little or no competition. Again that's all well and good if the airport wants to protect Delta's status here but in turn Delta needs to grow the market as Northwest did when it had it's preferred status. You can't have it both ways you can't have the airport give you preferred status and then choke of the market.



There's a nearly full North Terminal full of competition in the form of Frontier, Spirit, Jetblue, Southwest, Alaska. There's no barrier to entry.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:59 pm

winginit wrote:
portcolumbus wrote:
klm617 wrote:
ACI does as an aviation consultant you should be aware of that fact and Delta tells us every time in their press release that ATL is the busiest and biggest hub in the world so Delta publishes it too.

https://airportscouncil.org/


I have no idea what you're getting at. Atlanta IS their biggest and busiest hub, that's just a simple fact. It's not a slight against Detroit or against you personally, which is how you seem to take it. This is so ridiculous.


So, as suspected, the only reason to care is to see how well your 'team' is doing against the other teams. I give up. He's in rare form today.


Come on even you know the bigger the market the more attention it gets. I'm sorry that I don't live in Dallas or Chicago where there is always something happening by the hub carriers there while in good old Detroit our hub carrier is comitted to keep the airport at an almost zero growth rate.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
EBiafore99
Posts: 86
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:03 pm

klm617 wrote:
portcolumbus wrote:
klm617 wrote:
The reason is plane and simple the airport has no real desire to bring anyone in here that might have the abilty to impact Delta in a negative way but the joke is the passenger market that these carriers would create wouldn't fly Delta anyway because they are either driving to ORD or YYZ or they can't afford to fly.


Oh my God, it's the same thing OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN. It's not some giant conspiracy. The airport isn't turning carriers away. DTW is well-served, end of story.


Well served how in what way. Maybe well served as far as Delta is concerned but not well served across the mainstream public. MSP, PHL, DEN, PDX, TPA now those are well served airports that cater to the entire cross section of the market. DTW is only well served at the high end.


What about NK? 30 - 35 flights a day with connections to Latin and South America.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:03 pm

Just when I thought it was “safe” to participate in this thread again... <sigh>

The date I pulled was likely midweek, there’s six peak day departures, with the sixth flight operated with the 319.

Comparing 2019 with 2007:
6x — 319, 5x321 = ~1087 seats
9x — 5x319, 3x320, 1x757 = ~1248 seats

A 13% reduction in physical capacity, but I suspect DL will ultimately carry more passengers than NW in 2007 due to higher loads.
Last edited by compensateme on Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:07 pm

portcolumbus wrote:
klm617 wrote:
No they may not be turning anyone away but they aren't aggressively searching for alternatives to grow the market hence making it easier for Delta to run it's monopoly in Detroit with little or no competition. Again that's all well and good if the airport wants to protect Delta's status here but in turn Delta needs to grow the market as Northwest did when it had it's preferred status. You can't have it both ways you can't have the airport give you preferred status and then choke of the market.



There's a nearly full North Terminal full of competition in the form of Frontier, Spirit, Jetblue, Southwest, Alaska. There's no barrier to entry.


F9, B6 and AS are not big players at all and aren't expanding in this market but there is no FI or EI and Detroit can support those. DTW had and equal too or better load on KEF-DTW when WW served it than a lot of the FI stations even CLE got the nod from to LCC European carriers. Detroit got a rental for 11 months and keep in mind WW didn't pull the plug on Detroit like it did with most of it US stations when the got in trouble but good old DTW can't land an FI replacement. for the route. Again I have to sight all the credible rumors of which none have come to fruition and that blame goes on the airport.

TK, QR, DY, EI and DL on DTW-MAN what other airport has been brought up so many times with nothing ever happening and if all those carriers see potential then there must be viability in operating out of Detroit or it would never be considered.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:11 pm

Guys, please stop. PLEASE. Some of us are trying to have a constructive discussion. There’s literally an infinite number of threads dedicated to DFW on these forums, doing the same thing as klm617 is doing here (“How Big will DFW get... will DFW surpass ATL”). Go there, go anywhere, just stay away from here.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:14 pm

EBiafore99 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
portcolumbus wrote:

Oh my God, it's the same thing OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN. It's not some giant conspiracy. The airport isn't turning carriers away. DTW is well-served, end of story.


Well served how in what way. Maybe well served as far as Delta is concerned but not well served across the mainstream public. MSP, PHL, DEN, PDX, TPA now those are well served airports that cater to the entire cross section of the market. DTW is only well served at the high end.


What about NK? 30 - 35 flights a day with connections to Latin and South America.


LAS got NK additions in one day that Detroit gets in a whole year. At the start of the new IND flights NK stated it wants to connect new cities to it's strongest station say that those were FLL, MCO and LAS just stopping short of mentioning DTW as it's 4th strongest station but again I expect DTW to drop further down the list because NK is not adding flights out of DTW they are just adding flight to DTW when opening some of their new stations. If there was a real commitment by NK at DTW they would be adding connections like DTW-BNA/VPS/SRQ and the like. Detroit is just another NK focus city nothing more. NK barely serves to Caribean vacation markets from Detroit and passed on DTW-SJU when it was added at many other stations.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
winginit
Posts: 2546
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:16 pm

klm617 wrote:
TK, QR, DY, EI and DL on DTW-MAN what other airport has been brought up so many times with nothing ever happening and if all those carriers see potential then there must be viability in operating out of Detroit or it would never be considered.


That's a poor theory.

Potential is a very different thing from viability as I hope you know, and it's foolish to say that seeing potential is concrete evidence of viability.

I promise I'm done for the week now. I've got a Mueller report to dissect.
Last edited by winginit on Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:20 pm, edited 5 times in total.
 
lavalampluva
Posts: 1363
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:17 pm

klm617 wrote:
EBiafore99 wrote:
For reference about DTW and it's "hub" status. consider this. Per wiki, the highest passenger count at DTW was in 2005 at 36.4 million. Since then, it dropped to a low of 31.4 in 2009 and was 35.2 in 2018. So, DTW is now 1.1 away from its high. Is it stellar? No. But, slice and dice it however you want, DTW is not that far off from it's highest number as a NW hub. Just because DL chooses to run the hub with fewer flights really doesn't mean much. It's the seat numbers that count. And I believe in earlier posts, its been shown DL is increasing seats in DTW.

Also, why are we still comparing DTW to ATL. ATL is the mothership. It will always be the mothership. DTW has a portfolio of 3-4x AMS, 2-3x CDG, 1-2x LHR, 1x FRA, 4-5x to Asia and a growing Mexico portfolio through AeroMexico. I'd say we are well off. Do we pay more because DL has a hub here? Probably. But that premium is because we can fly to a lot of places nonstop with several flight options a day. Besides, at least our hub airline is high in customer satisfaction and on-time performance. Can't say that about some other airlines.


As far as LCCs go to Europe with minimal Europe service

PDX-2
MSP-3
DEN-2
PHL-2
TPA-2
SEA-3

Detroit ZERO

Be glad for what you have. DL could easily transfer all those TATL flights out of DTW to another hub and the change wouldn't even be noticed. :wink:
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:21 pm

Deleted
Last edited by compensateme on Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:28 pm

I really thought twice about posting the data above knowing in all likelihood could lead to the thread getting locked.
However I knew we would inevitably have this diatribe.

The intend was to have constructive discussion about DLs summer flight schedule and year over year trends.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:30 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
klm617 wrote:
EBiafore99 wrote:
For reference about DTW and it's "hub" status. consider this. Per wiki, the highest passenger count at DTW was in 2005 at 36.4 million. Since then, it dropped to a low of 31.4 in 2009 and was 35.2 in 2018. So, DTW is now 1.1 away from its high. Is it stellar? No. But, slice and dice it however you want, DTW is not that far off from it's highest number as a NW hub. Just because DL chooses to run the hub with fewer flights really doesn't mean much. It's the seat numbers that count. And I believe in earlier posts, its been shown DL is increasing seats in DTW.

Also, why are we still comparing DTW to ATL. ATL is the mothership. It will always be the mothership. DTW has a portfolio of 3-4x AMS, 2-3x CDG, 1-2x LHR, 1x FRA, 4-5x to Asia and a growing Mexico portfolio through AeroMexico. I'd say we are well off. Do we pay more because DL has a hub here? Probably. But that premium is because we can fly to a lot of places nonstop with several flight options a day. Besides, at least our hub airline is high in customer satisfaction and on-time performance. Can't say that about some other airlines.


As far as LCCs go to Europe with minimal Europe service

PDX-2
MSP-3
DEN-2
PHL-2
TPA-2
SEA-3

Detroit ZERO

Be glad for what you have. DL could easily transfer all those TATL flights out of DTW to another hub and the change wouldn't even be noticed. :wink:


I would happily trade my Delta hub away for more options here in Detroit. It makes me sad that they didn't chose DTW over CVG. We may have been lower in the rankings but that would be OK because then we wouldn't have hub status but at least we'd have options.

1 X CDG-DTW AF
1 X MUC-DTW LH
1 X FRA-DTW LH
1 X LHR-DTW BA
1 X KEF-DTW FI
1 X DUB-DTW EI

Would be much better than the current offerings.
Last edited by klm617 on Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 7268
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:31 pm

I mean I could care less about ATCT visual aesthetics. If we need a new tower great, if not don’t unnecessarily spend the money.
It’s the same design of many ATCT towers of that era that are all in use across the country today and will be for a long time in the future.

That said MSP probably has the worst looking tower but I don’t think anyone there really cares.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:33 pm

It’s time to lock the thread. We are toast.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:37 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I really thought twice about posting the data above knowing in all likelihood could lead to the thread getting locked.
However I knew we would inevitably have this diatribe.

The intend was to have constructive discussion about DLs summer flight schedule and year over year trends.


And I'm up for that but I'm not going to sit back and let people trash this market that don't even live in the area and who have no clue about the dynamics and potential of this market other than being very proficient at using google. All of us from Detroit have to stick together even so we may not agree to call one another out just brings these types more and more to our thread and try to trash it. I don't go bashing other airports on others threads we do people feel it necessary to come here and post their negativity here.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
portcolumbus
Posts: 1653
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:48 pm

klm617 wrote:
and who have no clue about the dynamics and potential of this market other than being very proficient at using google.


I sincerely hope you're including yourself here.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:56 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
It’s time to lock the thread. We are toast.


There’s no reason to lock this thread. It’s a group of trolls who get their entertainment by lynching klm617; the moderators could readily solve the problem by actively suspending those users. This would enable everybody else to partake in a constructive discussion.

There’s literally a half-dozen active threads on DFW with way more fanboyism than any DTWer has ever had — literally the stupidest threads on this forum: ‘YesterdAAy, I was flying out off DFW, AAnd there was a jAAnitor in the bAAthroom. Do other AAirports have jAAnitors cleaning their bAAthrooms ? DFW is the bestest!” There’s just nobody trolling them.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:24 pm

portcolumbus wrote:
klm617 wrote:
and who have no clue about the dynamics and potential of this market other than being very proficient at using google.


I sincerely hope you're including yourself here.


I live in Detroit and listen to what people say about their travel habits so I know the score. I talk to travel agents about how they book flights and to people who travel between DTW and Europe where the real truth is not what google spits out. We all know that we can skew data to prove any point we want to but talking to actual humans and the choices they make is where the real truth lies.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
winginit
Posts: 2546
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:34 pm

compensateme wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
It’s time to lock the thread. We are toast.


There’s no reason to lock this thread. It’s a group of trolls who get their entertainment by lynching klm617; the moderators could readily solve the problem by actively suspending those users. This would enable everybody else to partake in a constructive discussion.


Oh please. Remember the month some time last year when klm617, for whatever reason, stopped posting for a whole month? We had constructive dialogue with data to match.

There's one catalyst for the nonsense, conspiracy theories, misinformation, and blatant lies in this thread (which are direct violations of forum rules) and it's one user who further exacerbates the situation by peppering other threads with that same nonsense. We both know that.
Last edited by winginit on Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
klm617
Posts: 4339
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:38 pm

winginit wrote:
compensateme wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
It’s time to lock the thread. We are toast.


There’s no reason to lock this thread. It’s a group of trolls who get their entertainment by lynching klm617; the moderators could readily solve the problem by actively suspending those users. This would enable everybody else to partake in a constructive discussion.


Oh please. Remember the month some time last year when klm, for whatever reason, stopped posting for a whole month? We had constructive dialogue with data to match.

There's one catalyst for the nonsense, conspiracy theories, misinformation, and blatant lies in this thread (which are direct violations of forum rules) and it's one user who further exacerbates the situation by peppering other threads with that same nonsense. You know this.



Just for clarification this was the message from the moderator and that's all the data we need backed up with real evidence. He isn't talking about me.

I mean this in all seriousness — Detroit discussions require more of our effort as moderators than any other singular topic on this forum, and it isn't because of fanboy comments. It's because of bullies who feel like they have to pile on every single time someone makes a comment they disagree with.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:56 pm

klm617 wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
klm617 wrote:

As far as LCCs go to Europe with minimal Europe service

PDX-2
MSP-3
DEN-2
PHL-2
TPA-2
SEA-3

Detroit ZERO

Be glad for what you have. DL could easily transfer all those TATL flights out of DTW to another hub and the change wouldn't even be noticed. :wink:


I would happily trade my Delta hub away for more options here in Detroit. It makes me sad that they didn't chose DTW over CVG. We may have been lower in the rankings but that would be OK because then we wouldn't have hub status but at least we'd have options.

1 X CDG-DTW AF
1 X MUC-DTW LH
1 X FRA-DTW LH
1 X LHR-DTW BA
1 X KEF-DTW FI
1 X DUB-DTW EI

Would be much better than the current offerings.

We all know you're kidding about that. Oh the rants we'd read if DL every pulled it's TATL flights out of DTW! :lol:
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
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rangercarp
Posts: 102
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:14 pm

compensateme wrote:
Just when I thought it was “safe” to participate in this thread again... <sigh>

Th "Ignore" list is your friend! If we all start ignoring the users who make a mockery of this thread, we could get back to productive discussion. Of course the number of posts would be cut by 2/3! :duck:
iwgbtp!
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 7268
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:20 pm

I'm actually flying today unlike the rest of you keyboard cowboys. Currently in the MSP C SkyClub. See ya'll in DTW in a few hours!
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 7268
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:21 pm

Question -

When did MSP build Concourse A & B and install RJ jetbridges? Was it before the McNamera terminal in DTW was opened in 2002 or after?
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 7268
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:21 pm

MSP has an ugly ATCT tower I can confirm that.

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