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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:55 pm

compensateme wrote:
jetlanta wrote:
Delta also cancelled MCO-GRU. Do they hate MCO?


DL de-hubbed MCO in the mid-1990s, scrapped Delta Express in the early 2000s, then killed most point-to-point flying in the late 2000s and withdrew frequent widebody flying to ATL in the 2010s. Oh, and they decided they no longer wanted to be the official airline of Disney World and dropped sponsorship of that crappy ride at the Magic Kingdom!

So yes, I'd agree DL hates MCO!!
You're on a roll today. :lol:
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:12 am

jetlanta wrote:
klm617 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
So you are upset that NK added BUR-LAS so you think that means thus they are not committed to DTW?

I mean seriously?


No not upset at all just pointing out that Detroit doesn't see the same level of commitment from Spirit as LAS, MCO and FLL do. I understand the DTW is no vacation destination but there is potential out of Detroit to places like MDW, BDL, EWR, SRQ, VPS, RNO,TUS, SAV, PIT, that's being ignored by Spirit and also pointing out that LAS adding BUR has netted them almost half the capacity growth that Detroit has gotten by just adding BUR. Meaning DTW is like 4th or 5th rung on the ladder when it comes to growth. Everything Spirit does at DTW is appreciated but Detroit is not the top market in the mind of Spirit when it comes to growth.


Geez, how is it that the airport's largest legacy carrier and its largest LCC haven't figured out that it is such an amazing growth market? It must be some kind of anti-Detroit conspiracy!

Do you even realize what you sound like, other than a broken record? Maybe, just maybe Detroit is a solid, mature, non-leisure, non-growth market that has a level of capacity appropriate to its market conditions. Spirit doesn't grow quickly in Detroit because the market doesn't absorb new capacity quickly. There are other markets that offer much faster growth. DTW-GRU didn't get axed because Delta hates DTW. It got axed because Brazil has tanked again and business traffic has plummeted, especially in the auto sector. Delta also cancelled MCO-GRU. Do they hate MCO?

You live in a fantasy world and it ruins this thread.


Right sized to what that is just a a.net myth that sounds intellectual when it's brought up. If one want's to talk about rightsizing then O/D should match overall capacity other than that rightsizing is nothing more than a myth. As far as NK while DTW is no vacation destination there are many markets out of Detroit that are leisure destinations that NK could link Detroit to but the fact is DTW is not any more a priority than DFW, IAH or ORD are and much less a priority than MCO, FLL and LAS are which again get's us to pretty much just token adds here and there. How about adding 3 daily between DTW-MDW or even 2 daily DTW-EWR or DTW-BDL.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:27 am

Yeah!!!!! Let’s hold NKs feet the fire!!!! Bring on the pitch forks and torches. Their 15% growth last year in DTW wasn’t enough.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:45 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Yeah!!!!! Let’s hold NKs feet the fire!!!! Bring on the pitch forks and torches. Their 15% growth last year in DTW wasn’t enough.


Spirit added 6 flights to LAS in the last two days. What did we get? A single flight to RDU, announced two months ago. If NK truly cared about DTW, they would’ve added DTW alongside LAS-BUR/SMF! And where’s MDW and PHX?
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:51 am

Let's face it, NKs new VP's first add was most likely CLT, and its clear he wants nothing to do with DTW in his growth plans. When you get a new VP for Network and Capacity planning, they have plans, and his plans look like they're aimed at WN.
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lavalampluva
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:55 am

compensateme wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Yeah!!!!! Let’s hold NKs feet the fire!!!! Bring on the pitch forks and torches. Their 15% growth last year in DTW wasn’t enough.


Spirit added 6 flights to LAS in the last two days. What did we get? A single flight to RDU, announced two months ago. If NK truly cared about DTW, they would’ve added DTW alongside LAS-BUR/SMF! And where’s MDW and PHX?

NK only flies to LAS. DTW is most likely a ways down the list to add.
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seanpmassey
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:11 am

compensateme wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Yeah!!!!! Let’s hold NKs feet the fire!!!! Bring on the pitch forks and torches. Their 15% growth last year in DTW wasn’t enough.


Spirit added 6 flights to LAS in the last two days. What did we get? A single flight to RDU, announced two months ago. If NK truly cared about DTW, they would’ve added DTW alongside LAS-BUR/SMF! And where’s MDW and PHX?


Come on, guys...this is getting ridiculous. Detroit isn't the center of the world. It's not always going to be the first choice for routes by any of its carriers or perspective carriers.
 
N292UX
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:13 am

seanpmassey wrote:
compensateme wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Yeah!!!!! Let’s hold NKs feet the fire!!!! Bring on the pitch forks and torches. Their 15% growth last year in DTW wasn’t enough.


Spirit added 6 flights to LAS in the last two days. What did we get? A single flight to RDU, announced two months ago. If NK truly cared about DTW, they would’ve added DTW alongside LAS-BUR/SMF! And where’s MDW and PHX?


Come on, guys...this is getting ridiculous. Detroit isn't the center of the world. It's not always going to be the first choice for routes by any of its carriers or perspective carriers.

I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:29 pm

N292UX wrote:
seanpmassey wrote:
compensateme wrote:

Spirit added 6 flights to LAS in the last two days. What did we get? A single flight to RDU, announced two months ago. If NK truly cared about DTW, they would’ve added DTW alongside LAS-BUR/SMF! And where’s MDW and PHX?


Come on, guys...this is getting ridiculous. Detroit isn't the center of the world. It's not always going to be the first choice for routes by any of its carriers or perspective carriers.

I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm.


Ah but that's the thing you really don't know do you ?
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:25 pm

Well if Spirit was going to add BDL as a summer seasonal destination, they would've done it by now. I'd say the only destinations that they currently fly to that could afford being added later in the season is EWR and CLT (if it does well), those are realistically the only 2 destinations on the table for the summer. It's time to start thinking winter.
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Luke1994
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:59 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Let's face it, NKs new VP's first add was most likely CLT, and its clear he wants nothing to do with DTW in his growth plans. When you get a new VP for Network and Capacity planning, they have plans, and his plans look like they're aimed at WN.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Spirit has a strong customer base at DTW, and that won't be forgotten when it comes to growth.
CMEL student for now...
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:02 pm

Here's what F9 should add:

DTW-ORD (daily 321)
DTW-ONT (3x weekly 320NEO)
DTW-SLC (3x - 4x weekly 320; daily 321 during ski season)
DTW-BOI (3x weekly 319)
DTW-ANC (2x weekly 321) *seasonal*

Thoughts?
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:35 pm

Luke1994 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Let's face it, NKs new VP's first add was most likely CLT, and its clear he wants nothing to do with DTW in his growth plans. When you get a new VP for Network and Capacity planning, they have plans, and his plans look like they're aimed at WN.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Spirit has a strong customer base at DTW, and that won't be forgotten when it comes to growth.
It's business. You tend to know ones strengths/weaknesses so you can go in where you know you can undercut them, in this case California where an F9 presence is sparse.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:35 pm

compensateme wrote:
Here's what F9 should add:

DTW-ORD (daily 321)
DTW-ONT (3x weekly 320NEO)
DTW-SLC (3x - 4x weekly 320; daily 321 during ski season)
DTW-BOI (3x weekly 319)
DTW-ANC (2x weekly 321) *seasonal*

Thoughts?
Unrealisitc.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:45 pm

flymco753 wrote:
compensateme wrote:
Here's what F9 should add:

DTW-ORD (daily 321)
DTW-ONT (3x weekly 320NEO)
DTW-SLC (3x - 4x weekly 320; daily 321 during ski season)
DTW-BOI (3x weekly 319)
DTW-ANC (2x weekly 321) *seasonal*

Thoughts?
Unrealisitc.


Uh, no, we’re talking about F9.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:22 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Luke1994 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Let's face it, NKs new VP's first add was most likely CLT, and its clear he wants nothing to do with DTW in his growth plans. When you get a new VP for Network and Capacity planning, they have plans, and his plans look like they're aimed at WN.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Spirit has a strong customer base at DTW, and that won't be forgotten when it comes to growth.
It's business. You tend to know ones strengths/weaknesses so you can go in where you know you can undercut them, in this case California where an F9 presence is sparse.


There is so many places they could go from Detroit to undercut Delta but chose not to.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:51 pm

compensateme wrote:
Here's what F9 should add:

DTW-ORD (daily 321)
DTW-ONT (3x weekly 320NEO)
DTW-SLC (3x - 4x weekly 320; daily 321 during ski season)
DTW-BOI (3x weekly 319)
DTW-ANC (2x weekly 321) *seasonal*

Thoughts?


I think those would be all pretty solid adds for NK except maybe BOI. F9 is not that committed to Detroit but yes I could see them all working on a less than daily basis.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:20 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Let's face it, NKs new VP's first add was most likely CLT, and its clear he wants nothing to do with DTW in his growth plans. When you get a new VP for Network and Capacity planning, they have plans, and his plans look like they're aimed at WN.

If you take the broader view, NK serves the entire nation and has demonstrated remarkable growth that has in many cases un-noticed at the same time as cleaning-up their brand image.

Many of these more recent adds may be viewed as more strategic to get into more competitive markets where they see an opportunity. A slower-growth market like DTW, they don't have to worry about any competition and they can add many of these at a later time if they desire. No other ULCC is going to fly any of the markets out of DTW, so NK has that sandbox all to themselves.

compensateme wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
compensateme wrote:
Here's what F9 should add:

DTW-ORD (daily 321)
DTW-ONT (3x weekly 320NEO)
DTW-SLC (3x - 4x weekly 320; daily 321 during ski season)
DTW-BOI (3x weekly 319)
DTW-ANC (2x weekly 321) *seasonal*

Thoughts?
Unrealisitc.


Uh, no, we’re talking about F9.

Only realistic if:
DTW-BOI departs at 11pm on Tue, Thu, Sun, with a red-eye return that leave BOI at 1am. They fly it for all of 3 weeks then cancel it
DTW-ORD would be a daily A321 that departs DTW at 4:45am and does and turn back departing ORD at 5:30am, they fly it for a month, then change the flight times completely and go less than daily. fly it another month, then change the flight times again
DTW-ANC would be 2x weekly but obviously it wouldn't be Saturday, it would like Tuesday and Wednesday, again with odd-ball departure times like 10:30pm Tuesday and 11:45pm Wednesday
DTW-ONT they would switch frequency and days of the week every month from 1-3 per week

Then its all realistic and it would all be gone in 6 months, and it would be chalked up as another F9 dartboard focus city experiment.


compensateme wrote:
DL use to be really good about upgauging flights to DTW to play “catch up” after an IRROPS situation at ATL. I was on numerous 753, 767, 330 and 777 that subbed for M88, M90, 320 and 757. One time we scored a 744, but I think that had as much to do with re-positioning as it did anything else.

No more, unfortunately. In December, they gave me a routing through CMH to get to DTW...

Yep the options that showed-up where DAY, LEX, CMH, BNA, and CHA. I figured DAY got be closest to DTW and I could always just drive from there if the connection didn't work out.

Thank goodness that can be done on the app and website.
ATL CSAs are the worst, but that being said, they seem to be stressed and frazzled to the extreme. When you have one agent working a flight that they are pressured to turn and get out quickly, with late connecting passengers/over-sales, and the scrum-mess that is boarding these days its no wonder they are surely, curt, and rude. People used to lay that reputation on DTW, but lately ATL agents by far are the worst.
 
winginit
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:14 pm

klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Luke1994 wrote:
How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Spirit has a strong customer base at DTW, and that won't be forgotten when it comes to growth.
It's business. You tend to know ones strengths/weaknesses so you can go in where you know you can undercut them, in this case California where an F9 presence is sparse.


There is so many places they could go from Detroit to undercut Delta but chose not to.


And out of curiosity why is it that you think F9 are choosing not to serve those routes if they're such obvious opportunities. You've stated your baseless claims that the WCAA has some sort of handshake agreement with Delta that they won't stir the pot by trying to solicit competitors into DTW (which is of course ridiculous), but why wouldn't F9 choose to enter the market especially since the WCAA Air Service Director previously ran Network Planning for F9? Another conspiracy or is there simply no business case to be made?
 
toltommy
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:44 pm

klm617 wrote:
There is so many places they could go from Detroit to undercut Delta but chose not to.


I know we are not supposed to feed the troll, but sometime the troll needs a reality check....

Yes there areplenty of places they could go from DTW and undercut Delta. But on the other hand, there are MORE places they could deploy their assets to, not have to undercut anyone, and make a better ROI. In the end, the responsibility of the leadership is to maximize return on investment.
A300/A310/A319/A320/A321/A332/A333/707/712/727/732/733/734/735/738/739/752/753/762/763/764/772/789/DC8/DC9-10/30/40/50/MD81/83/87/88/90/L1011-/250/500/CRJ200/440/700/900/EMB135/140/145/170/175/190/328Jet/F70/SF3/BE1/J31
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:20 pm

toltommy wrote:
klm617 wrote:
There is so many places they could go from Detroit to undercut Delta but chose not to.


I know we are not supposed to feed the troll, but sometime the troll needs a reality check....

Yes there areplenty of places they could go from DTW and undercut Delta. But on the other hand, there are MORE places they could deploy their assets to, not have to undercut anyone, and make a better ROI. In the end, the responsibility of the leadership is to maximize return on investment.


Reality check network planning made this comment at Spirit and there are many opportunities that fit this criteria right here at DTW.

“What we look for are over-fared markets,” said John Kirby, Spirit’s vice president of network planning.

So they want to enter markets where they can undercut the competition.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:27 pm

If there was one thing you could change in regards to the appearance of the airport, what would you change?

First order of business, ditch ceiling tile. It's starting to show it's wear and tear, especially around air vents where the ceiling tile is stained from air blowing out of the vents. I'd ditch it and replace it with rectangular tin strips and replace the round ceiling lighting with rectangular lighting. If they don't do an improvement like this in the next few years, the terminals would quickly begin to look very dated while everyone else is updating.

Second thing would be replacing that disgusting looking white siding on the exterior of the McNamara. The white is starting to water stain around the edges and looks bad, some panels are
even falling off and not being replaced. Should be replaced with a darker color like grey so that the stains aren't completely noticeable. I really noticed them a few days ago when arriving in.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:28 pm

There nothing specifically planned in the immediate near-term for the McNamera but the terminal is approaching the 20-year mark and will be due for some refreshing in the next 5 years. They have already replaced fixtures in most most of the restrooms, the tram is undergoing overhaul, and the concession areas have been redone.

Regarding the exterior panels, the dirt and water stains are not unique to DTW. DEN has similar color and style of panels and they look horrendously dirty and they are only a few years older than DTW. They look far worse than DTW. A lot of that could likely be removed with deep cleaning with power wash and solvents.
That said, the cost to replace exterior panels would easily be tens of millons of dollars.

A lot of things will hopefully be cleaned-up once the weather breaks as we have had a rough winter with a lot of big wind events and it makes it very difficult to accomplish any routine maintenance and cleaning for a good 4-5 month stretch.

A few things that IMHO need to be addressed:
1) McNamera Ground Transportation Center - its small, dirty, all the charm of a bus station smoking lounge, not enough escalator/elevator capacity, and the nastiest stinky bathrooms in the airport.
2) Restrooms outside of security on the departures / ticketing level
3) Reconfigure the entrance to the McNamera parking garage so when you are driving in from the south entrance, you can enter the long-term parking without having to loop all the way back around and drive through the International arrivals level
4) Reconstruct Eureka Rd and the South entrance ramps that are a potholed mess like all of SE Michigan
5) Add a "normal" coffee shop/stand in the Center A area besides whatever that weird place is by the fountain
6) Get better branding / logo / imaging for the airport; better signage when you enter the airport; places like BNA and RDU do a far better job of stuff like this
7) Add more way-finding signs to the airport around Metro Detroit; in some cities there are directional signs to the airport 30+ miles out; I can't believe there are no simple "airport" directional signs at I-96/I-275. Out-of-town travelers can use this when trying to navigate our byzantine interchanges like at the mixing-bowl.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:30 pm

To build on the different ceiling ideas they could get for the smaller hold areas, think ATL, IND, T3 in Vegas, or Concourse A in Ft Lauderdale. This should be the look that they're aiming for, square foam ceiling tiles are out of style.
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
There nothing specifically planned in the immediate near-term for the McNamera but the terminal is approaching the 20-year mark and will be due for some refreshing in the next 5 years. They have already replaced fixtures in most most of the restrooms, the tram is undergoing overhaul, and the concession areas have been redone.

Regarding the exterior panels, the dirt and water stains are not unique to DTW. DEN has similar color and style of panels and they look horrendously dirty and they are only a few years older than DTW. They look far worse than DTW. A lot of that could likely be removed with deep cleaning with power wash and solvents.
That said, the cost to replace exterior panels would easily be tens of millons of dollars.

A lot of things will hopefully be cleaned-up once the weather breaks as we have had a rough winter with a lot of big wind events and it makes it very difficult to accomplish any routine maintenance and cleaning for a good 4-5 month stretch.

A few things that IMHO need to be addressed:
1) McNamera Ground Transportation Center - its small, dirty, all the charm of a bus station smoking lounge, not enough escalator/elevator capacity, and the nastiest stinky bathrooms in the airport.
2) Restrooms outside of security on the departures / ticketing level
3) Reconfigure the entrance to the McNamera parking garage so when you are driving in from the south entrance, you can enter the long-term parking without having to loop all the way back around and drive through the International arrivals level
4) Reconstruct Eureka Rd and the South entrance ramps that are a potholed mess like all of SE Michigan
5) Add a "normal" coffee shop/stand in the Center A area besides whatever that weird place is by the fountain
6) Get better branding / logo / imaging for the airport; better signage when you enter the airport; places like BNA and RDU do a far better job of stuff like this
7) Add more way-finding signs to the airport around Metro Detroit; in some cities there are directional signs to the airport 30+ miles out; I can't believe there are no simple "airport" directional signs at I-96/I-275. Out-of-town travelers can use this when trying to navigate our byzantine interchanges like at the mixing-bowl.
All very good points. I always see minor updates here and there especially recently. I wonder when they're going to put the new signs up south of the airport since a few days ago they had the same, sun bleached and peeling signs. That looked bad.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:40 pm

flymco753 wrote:
If there was one thing you could change in regards to the appearance of the airport, what would you change?

First order of business, ditch ceiling tile. It's starting to show it's wear and tear, especially around air vents where the ceiling tile is stained from air blowing out of the vents. I'd ditch it and replace it with rectangular tin strips and replace the round ceiling lighting with rectangular lighting. If they don't do an improvement like this in the next few years, the terminals would quickly begin to look very dated while everyone else is updating.

Second thing would be replacing that disgusting looking white siding on the exterior of the McNamara. The white is starting to water stain around the edges and looks bad, some panels are
even falling off and not being replaced. Should be replaced with a darker color like grey so that the stains aren't completely noticeable. I really noticed them a few days ago when arriving in.


A little more attention to keeping the bathrooms clean. The ground transportation area should be a straight shot from the arrivals area not all this up and down makes it a bit difficult when your trying to navigate getting to a bus when you have suitcases in tow.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:42 pm

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
It's business. You tend to know ones strengths/weaknesses so you can go in where you know you can undercut them, in this case California where an F9 presence is sparse.


There is so many places they could go from Detroit to undercut Delta but chose not to.


And out of curiosity why is it that you think F9 are choosing not to serve those routes if they're such obvious opportunities. You've stated your baseless claims that the WCAA has some sort of handshake agreement with Delta that they won't stir the pot by trying to solicit competitors into DTW (which is of course ridiculous), but why wouldn't F9 choose to enter the market especially since the WCAA Air Service Director previously ran Network Planning for F9? Another conspiracy or is there simply no business case to be made?


My comment was based on the NK quote I shared and has nothing to do with F9.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:45 pm

flymco753 wrote:
To build on the different ceiling ideas they could get for the smaller hold areas, think ATL, IND, T3 in Vegas, or Concourse A in Ft Lauderdale. This should be the look that they're aiming for, square foam ceiling tiles are out of style.


The Midfield Terminal has aged well; nearing 20-years-old, it's unquestionably the most modern, single-hub facility in the country; in contrast, NW first proposed replacing the Davey Terminal in 1987, when it was 19-years-old. While DTW neglected the Davey Terminal, it - along with NW and DL - has done the opposite with Midfield. Some of the changes are obvious -- they overhauled the retail/concessions and updated the gate holds with DL branding, display monitors and electrical outlets - but some are not so obvious. They've replaced the lighting and updated the fixtures throughout the terminal, the children's play areas were converted to DL consumer service counters and pet relief areas, they're on the fourth generation of arrival/departure screens, they've built dedicated handicap/facility restrooms, etc. And let's not forget about the payphones -- more payphones was the #2 request (behind more/larger restrooms) during the design stage of the terminal, and when the terminal opened it had lots and lots of them. Many still remain -- per the Freep, nearly half the payphone calls in all of Michigan originate at the airport -- but most have been removed, re-purposed mainly for the equipment from the children's play area.

One thing that works well for DL is the design of the complex -- on "A," about half the gates were spaced for the DC-9 fleet, with some slightly larger than others for the DC-9-50s. This works well with the CR9, E75, 717, A220-200/300. The remaining narrowbody gates were built across large pools; additional seating can be created across the former banks of phone booths as well as shrinking the DL podiums. This ensures comfortable seating with ample space -- in contrast to ATL and the claustrophobic mess that inhabits much of MSP.

I doubt there will be many major changes to Midfield within the next ten years or so, just some minor changes: (1) a few shops/restaurants will flip (but the lion's share are under contract); (2) DL will refresh its gate areas, mimicking ATL -- automated boarding, WN-type lanes, smaller podium, etc. but I doubt they'll replace the seats; and (3) the archaic, power-hungry TVs showing CNN Airport Network will come down … although it's probable programming will remain until it's no longer profitable for the airport.

When the terminal reaches 30-years-old is when things will get interesting. 30-years is generally the useful life of a commercial building and most everything (HVAC, roof, windows, moving sidewalks, escalators, etc.) needs replaced...although it's common for much of this to be deferred as long as possible (see: Smith, L.C.). And most of DL's leases will be expiring....
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:18 am

Interesting info, thank you.

The new ATCT is probably going to start going up shortly after the LC Smith Terminal is gone. Wonder what they're going to do with the existing space. Probably reactivate A65 and create a GSE parking lot.
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DTWorld
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:30 am

Looks like the last GRU flight is on the 29th of March. Sad to see it go, but it doesn't surprise me too much.

In a somewhat vain attempt to cheer everyone up, it looks like NGO is increasing to 6x weekly this summer starting this April.

DL095 DTW1215 – 1445+1NGO 332 x3
DL095 DTW1445 – 1715+1NGO 332 3

DL094 NGO1630 – 1610DTW 332 x4
DL094 NGO1910 – 1845DTW 332 4
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:36 am

DTWorld wrote:
Looks like the last GRU flight is on the 29th of March. Sad to see it go, but it doesn't surprise me too much.

In a somewhat vain attempt to cheer everyone up, it looks like NGO is increasing to 6x weekly this summer starting this April.

DL095 DTW1215 – 1445+1NGO 332 x3
DL095 DTW1445 – 1715+1NGO 332 3

DL094 NGO1630 – 1610DTW 332 x4
DL094 NGO1910 – 1845DTW 332 4



That is very good news so it looks like that is where the GRU aircraft is going. That schedule you posted is daily.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:01 pm

What is important to not that the summer of 2019 will see increases from every international carrier out of DTW except LH but I think the premium cabin is bigger in the 346 than it is in the 744 if I am not mistaken so that too can be considered an increase of sorts.

AC from 4 to 5 daily flights
WW from 4 to 5 weekly flights.
RJ from 3 to 4 weekly flights.
AM an additional 15 weekly flights.
NGO from 4 to 6 weekly flights
LHR from 10 to 14 weekly flights

I think those are very important points that should be driven home to EI to secure a Detroit flight in 2020 again giving Detroit more international growth.

The only reductions are GRU and the CDG 330 being moved to a 767 but with more 767 flying out of Detroit I think it gives DTW a better chance to land some new international service as the 767 is the right size to open up new markets where the 330 was just to much aircraft for something like MAN. I'm assuming that after the summer season HNL will also be toast unless Delta forces more traffic over Detroit from the Eastern USA to HNL customers. Going to be a pretty exciting summer as hopefully it will be a pure indicator of where Detroit might be heading in 2020. EI should be a slam dunk if the airport really wants them here and they do their due diligence to make it happen. Even though the WCAA may not write them a check there is more than enough customers to satisfy the yields they need for a successful flight.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:41 pm

Also of note DTW-AMS is going back to 28 weekly verses the 27 weekly from last summer
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lavalampluva
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:11 am

klm617 wrote:
Also of note DTW-AMS is going back to 28 weekly verses the 27 weekly from last summer

See. Things aren’t so bad now.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:11 am

lavalampluva wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Also of note DTW-AMS is going back to 28 weekly verses the 27 weekly from last summer

See. Things aren’t so bad now.


But we need EI in Detroit in 2020 to keep the pace. In my mind it's 2020 or never and you can take that to the bank. These additions should be marketed to Aer Lingus as to how viable Detroit is.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:56 am

klm617 wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Also of note DTW-AMS is going back to 28 weekly verses the 27 weekly from last summer

See. Things aren’t so bad now.


But we need EI in Detroit in 2020 to keep the pace. In my mind it's 2020 or never and you can take that to the bank. These additions should be marketed to Aer Lingus as to how viable Detroit is.

Need? I thought MAN was on that list. And BCN. And DOH. And every other airport out there. If EI thought they’d make money they’d be flying to DTW already. You need to learn patience. Airlines serve route which they feel will make them $$$, not just because you want them.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
Puissance
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:26 am

I think any carrier going against DL to Europe is in for a slog. The good thing is that with the A321, it becomes less risky to try Detroit, and there is a potential cost advantage as well which makes it more likely to be ignored by the majors. DL and LH have resumed ignoring WOW when a month ago they were very similar in price on some flights, if a carry on and/or checked bag were part of the picture.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:26 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
klm617 wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
See. Things aren’t so bad now.


But we need EI in Detroit in 2020 to keep the pace. In my mind it's 2020 or never and you can take that to the bank. These additions should be marketed to Aer Lingus as to how viable Detroit is.

Need? I thought MAN was on that list. And BCN. And DOH. And every other airport out there. If EI thought they’d make money they’d be flying to DTW already. You need to learn patience. Airlines serve route which they feel will make them $$$, not just because you want them.


I never said Barcelona. Top priority right now should be EI to DUB WCAA should be crunching numbers every day proving that DTW is sustainable without a check. They are of most benefit to the market followed by landing a DTW-MAN link and a ME3 carrier QR looks like a more attainable addition as EK keeps passing on Detroit. Yes need to keep up pace and not loose market share to other cities. EI mentioned DTW was underserved and is a potential addition no I so put you money where your mouth is and start the route already.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:28 pm

Puissance wrote:
I think any carrier going against DL to Europe is in for a slog. The good thing is that with the A321, it becomes less risky to try Detroit, and there is a potential cost advantage as well which makes it more likely to be ignored by the majors. DL and LH have resumed ignoring WOW when a month ago they were very similar in price on some flights, if a carry on and/or checked bag were part of the picture.


That was kind of foolish of DL and LH because most WOW Air passengers were never going to buy a ticket on Delta or Lufthansa any way. They cater to two completely different markets.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
winginit
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:19 pm

klm617 wrote:
Top priority right now should be EI to DUB WCAA should be crunching numbers every day proving that DTW is sustainable without a check.


Out of curiosity, what numbers do you think WCAA is able to 'crunch' and provide to EI? The airport has no access to data that EI doesn't already have access to: MIDT, DB1B, T100, economic data; and all of that falls well short of EI's own internal data in utility. The WCAA has no ability to show EI that DTW service would be viable without subsidies.

klm617 wrote:
EI mentioned DTW was underserved and is a potential addition no I so put you money where your mouth is and start the route already.


It's worth pointing out that since EI mentioned DTW as underserved they've applied to join the Atlantic Joint Venture with AA, BA, AY, IB as of December 22, 2018. If that's approved, EI will have minority influence over their own TATL network decisions: AA and BA will more or less be making the decisions for them. That being the case, your persuasion should be aimed at AA and BA.

What's very interesting is that in the document I've linked on page 50, oneworld seems to be implying that there's already a SkyTeam linkage between DTW and DUB unless I'm interpreting this incorrectly:

Across all services, Star and SkyTeam will remain a significant competitive constraint. United operates nonstop service to Dublin out of its major hub at O’Hare. SkyTeam has connecting service to Dublin through Detroit and New York.

Odd. To my knowledge there's never been a linkage between DTW and DUB over the past ten years at least, and again unless I'm misinterpreting that it'd be a glaring error in such a filing.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:22 pm

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Top priority right now should be EI to DUB WCAA should be crunching numbers every day proving that DTW is sustainable without a check.


Out of curiosity, what numbers do you think WCAA is able to 'crunch' and provide to EI? The airport has no access to data that EI doesn't already have access to: MIDT, DB1B, T100, economic data; and all of that falls well short of EI's own internal data in utility. The WCAA has no ability to show EI that DTW service would be viable without subsidies.

klm617 wrote:
EI mentioned DTW was underserved and is a potential addition no I so put you money where your mouth is and start the route already.


It's worth pointing out that since EI mentioned DTW as underserved they've applied to join the Atlantic Joint Venture with AA, BA, AY, IB as of December 22, 2018. If that's approved, EI will have minority influence over their own TATL network decisions: AA and BA will more or less be making the decisions for them. That being the case, your persuasion should be aimed at AA and BA.

What's very interesting is that in the document I've linked on page 50, oneworld seems to be implying that there's already a SkyTeam linkage between DTW and DUB unless I'm interpreting this incorrectly:

Across all services, Star and SkyTeam will remain a significant competitive constraint. United operates nonstop service to Dublin out of its major hub at O’Hare. SkyTeam has connecting service to Dublin through Detroit and New York.

Odd. To my knowledge there's never been a linkage between DTW and DUB over the past ten years at least, and again unless I'm misinterpreting that it'd be a glaring error in such a filing.



Because the WCAA knows the region and it's potential better than Aer Lingus does. You seem hung up on the point that the only thing that matters is data that one can pull from various data sources but that only paints part of the picture to potential suitors. I know you love numbers but like I say that doesn't include variables as I have pointed out this summer there will be growth on every international carrier out of Detroit and there is a reason for that. With what you are saying why do corporations even have salesmen it because they go out in the field and try to educate people about what they have on offer that they might night be aware of and that's the WCAA's job to sell their product.. As you have proven over and over we can make numbers reflect what ever we want them to by omitting and adding the data that defends our agenda the WCAA can do the same to sell EI on DTW.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:32 pm

My god, are we going to have to keep hearing the same tired diatribe about EI and DTW every week for the next 6 months until they even think about announcing new summer 2020 flying???
 
portcolumbus
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:35 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
My god, are we going to have to keep hearing the same tired diatribe about EI and DTW every week for the next 6 months until they even think about announcing new summer 2020 flying???


I think you know the answer and it's not good.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:03 pm

Has the Robocop statue been delivered to the Detroit Science Center? If not, maybe we could get a petition going to have it delivered and put on display at Midfield. Remember when the water fountain use to represent NW’s route network, and now nothing? Maybe DTW could fill it in and place the statue on top.

The statue could even “talk:” Detroit MIchigan is in the Eastern Time Zone.
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winginit
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:58 pm

klm617 wrote:
You seem hung up on the point that the only thing that matters is data that one can pull from various data sources but that only paints part of the picture to potential suitors. I know you love numbers but like I say that doesn't include variables as I have pointed out this summer there will be growth on every international carrier out of Detroit and there is a reason for that.


See now I'm quite confused. You're implying above that the numbers are only one part of the equation yet earlier you implied that the WCAA should be focusing on the numbers. Here's exactly what you said:

klm617 wrote:
Top priority right now should be EI to DUB WCAA should be crunching numbers every day proving that DTW is sustainable without a check.


Top priority = crunching numbers. Your words not mine.

So I'll ask again, what numbers should the WCAA be crunching knowing that they have access to no data that EI doesn't have access to? Be specific please.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:44 am

Did anybody get to see the NK Dumbo livery? If NK really cared about Detroit, it’d do one in an Aretha Franklin livery. Or Eminem, but he’s not as classy. Thoughts?
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:34 am

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
You seem hung up on the point that the only thing that matters is data that one can pull from various data sources but that only paints part of the picture to potential suitors. I know you love numbers but like I say that doesn't include variables as I have pointed out this summer there will be growth on every international carrier out of Detroit and there is a reason for that.


See now I'm quite confused. You're implying above that the numbers are only one part of the equation yet earlier you implied that the WCAA should be focusing on the numbers. Here's exactly what you said:

klm617 wrote:
Top priority right now should be EI to DUB WCAA should be crunching numbers every day proving that DTW is sustainable without a check.


Top priority = crunching numbers. Your words not mine.

So I'll ask again, what numbers should the WCAA be crunching knowing that they have access to no data that EI doesn't have access to? Be specific please.


Potential customer base the rise in international passengers and the fact that there is a low fare market that is not being addressed to it's potential here. Look at the passenger counts from YQG to Europe get an idea of how many are using YYZ and ORD that can't get the fares or service here at DTW. Clarify that the Detroit market is much more than the numbers might indicate because of the relatively low income of those living inside of the city that aren't going to use DTW and those number should not really be counted because they are irrelevant something people might not understand about the demographics and customer base of the region. Even a person like you in the business doesn't even understand the potential of the Detroit market though your constant negative posts on this thread.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:36 am

compensateme wrote:
Did anybody get to see the NK Dumbo livery? If NK really cared about Detroit, it’d do one in an Aretha Franklin livery. Or Eminem, but he’s not as classy. Thoughts?


A Motown or the Detroit Lions would make great liveries. Detroit is like their ugly stepchild.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
BenflysDTW
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:44 am

Looks like NGO is up to daily for the summer, until September 10th. HNL yields are climbing but from the seats maps I’ve looked at it looks like a dust bowl.
I’ll be back next Sunday like usual.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:59 am

They really need to crunch the numbers better so they can hold their feet to the fire.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:00 am

All I ever see is the banana boat livery, NK really hates DTW since all we get is the big yellow planes.

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