Runway28L
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:45 pm

Air Canada is operating a very rare E190 on YYZ-PIT this afternoon.

https://www.flightradar24.com/ACA2156/20d51bcd
 
Gsasala
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:12 pm

I was flying out Pittsburgh today, this was the busy I've ever seen the airport, every gate that had a flight was completely full, even the gates that didn't have planes had a bunch of people over flowing, the SFO flight gate there was not a since seat available, it looked like almost all of the flights have been upgaged
 
crjflyboy
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:38 pm

The decision to waste another 1 billion plus on updating PIT is absolute lunacy … PIT has among the highest PEC charges in the country and they want to load on more.

Who is the lunatic running the asylum there ?
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:22 pm

I see Air Canada is back to charging insane fares on many itineraries to YYZ. Want to spend this Friday and Saturday night in Toronto? That will set you back only $1,700 r/t. If you live in Cleveland that will only be $2,900 r/t. Makes AA's raping of the PIT-PHL route look like Sisters of Charity.

Speaking of PIT-PHL and the outrageous fares, I'm surprised more people have not figured out you can fly to LNS for like $40 then rent a car to Philly. Great article on the EAS program and how LNS fits in:
https://lancasteronline.com/news/local/up-in-the-air-again-subsidy-for-commercial-flights-at/article_ec47adb8-894b-11e9-8c2a-eb23fcdfd31e.html



crjflyboy wrote:
The decision to waste another 1 billion plus on updating PIT is absolute lunacy … PIT has among the highest PEC charges in the country and they want to load on more.

Yes, we still should be using the 1952 terminal considering how these improvements are such a "waste". BTW PIT has no where near the highest CPE (I assume that's what you mean) in the nation anymore. They've been coming down slowly but surely at PIT while most other airports have been increasing. Still a bit high at PIT compared to many peer airports but lets not be overly dramatic.
FLYi
 
crjflyboy
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:37 pm

flyPIT wrote:
I see Air Canada is back to charging insane fares on many itineraries to YYZ. Want to spend this Friday and Saturday night in Toronto? That will set you back only $1,700 r/t. If you live in Cleveland that will only be $2,900 r/t. Makes AA's raping of the PIT-PHL route look like Sisters of Charity.

Speaking of PIT-PHL and the outrageous fares, I'm surprised more people have not figured out you can fly to LNS for like $40 then rent a car to Philly. Great article on the EAS program and how LNS fits in:
https://lancasteronline.com/news/local/up-in-the-air-again-subsidy-for-commercial-flights-at/article_ec47adb8-894b-11e9-8c2a-eb23fcdfd31e.html



crjflyboy wrote:
The decision to waste another 1 billion plus on updating PIT is absolute lunacy … PIT has among the highest PEC charges in the country and they want to load on more.

Yes, we still should be using the 1952 terminal considering how these improvements are such a "waste". BTW PIT has no where near the highest CPE (I assume that's what you mean) in the nation anymore. They've been coming down slowly but surely at PIT while most other airports have been increasing. Still a bit high at PIT compared to many peer airports but lets not be overly dramatic.


The PEC costs at PIT are $ 16 plus ... CLT less than 2 , ATL 3 bucks


The 1952 terminal was demolished ... how can one use something does not exist ?
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:54 pm

crjflyboy wrote:
The PEC costs at PIT are $ 16 plus ... CLT less than 2 , ATL 3 bucks


The 1952 terminal was demolished ... how can one use something does not exist ?


The "CPE" (Cost Per Enplanement) at PIT is closer to $12. Furthermore, neither CLT or ATL are peer airports as those are exponentially busier due to their fortress hub status and therefore are able to distribute their cost of operation over a much larger passenger count.

As for my 1952 terminal comment I guess you don't read sarcasm. But given your response I'm left to believe that if it was still standing we should be using it.
FLYi
 
crjflyboy
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:14 am

flyPIT wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
The PEC costs at PIT are $ 16 plus ... CLT less than 2 , ATL 3 bucks


The 1952 terminal was demolished ... how can one use something does not exist ?


The "CPE" (Cost Per Enplanement) at PIT is closer to $12. Furthermore, neither CLT or ATL are peer airports as those are exponentially busier due to their fortress hub status and therefore are able to distribute their cost of operation over a much larger passenger count.

As for my 1952 terminal comment I guess you don't read sarcasm. But given your response I'm left to believe that if it was still standing we should be using it.



I stand firm on my $ 16.35 PEC charges at PIT if you can refute it ... do it with proof
 
pgh234
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:32 am

crjflyboy wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
The PEC costs at PIT are $ 16 plus ... CLT less than 2 , ATL 3 bucks


The 1952 terminal was demolished ... how can one use something does not exist ?


The "CPE" (Cost Per Enplanement) at PIT is closer to $12. Furthermore, neither CLT or ATL are peer airports as those are exponentially busier due to their fortress hub status and therefore are able to distribute their cost of operation over a much larger passenger count.

As for my 1952 terminal comment I guess you don't read sarcasm. But given your response I'm left to believe that if it was still standing we should be using it.



I stand firm on my $ 16.35 PEC charges at PIT if you can refute it ... do it with proof


This, umm, troll just joined two days ago. While we all have our opinions about the new airport...we act like grown ups in this thread. FlyPIT tried to explain in a civil manner why ATL and CLT have lower CPE. Any hub should.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:43 am

crjflyboy wrote:

I stand firm on my $ 16.35 PEC charges at PIT if you can refute it ... do it with proof


Better than I remembered, at $10.35.

"As part of the Allegheny County Airport Authority’s 2019 budget, the airport’s Cost Per Enplaned Passenger decreased to $10.35, a 31 percent decrease since peaking in 2011."
https://www.routesonline.com/airports/7016/pittsburgh-international-airport/news/281142/pittsburgh-international-airport-lowers-airline-costs-again-/


"Pittsburgh’s cost per enplaned passenger, an industry benchmark that measures total airline operating expenses divided by the number of passengers, is forecasted to fall again this year. Since peaking in 2011 at $14.97 per passenger, the airport now projects it will only cost $10.35 in expenses to seat each passenger — a reduction of nearly 31 percent."
https://pittnews.com/article/137391/news/pittsburgh-international-airport-approves-new-budget-for-changes/


"The fees that Pittsburgh International Airport charges to airlines will drop by 8.4 percent in 2019 to $10.35 per departing passenger in 2019 — the sixth straight year the rate has fallen, officials said."
https://archive.triblive.com/local/allegheny/14194253-74/pittsburgh-airports-fees-charged-to-airlines-drop-for-sixth-straight-year



Moving on.......

A couple advertisements from EFL promoting PIT:
Image
Image
FLYi
 
crjflyboy
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:35 am

crjflyboy wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:

I stand firm on my $ 16.35 PEC charges at PIT if you can refute it ... do it with proof


Better than I remembered, at $10.35.

"As part of the Allegheny County Airport Authority’s 2019 budget, the airport’s Cost Per Enplaned Passenger decreased to $10.35, a 31 percent decrease since peaking in 2011."
https://www.routesonline.com/airports/7016/pittsburgh-international-airport/news/281142/pittsburgh-international-airport-lowers-airline-costs-again-/


"Pittsburgh’s cost per enplaned passenger, an industry benchmark that measures total airline operating expenses divided by the number of passengers, is forecasted to fall again this year. Since peaking in 2011 at $14.97 per passenger, the airport now projects it will only cost $10.35 in expenses to seat each passenger — a reduction of nearly 31 percent."
[url]https://pittnews.com/article/137391/news/pittsburgh-international-airport-approves-new-budget-for-changes/[

And the Cleveland Plain Dealer states it at $16.70 per passenger...

https://www.cleveland.com/travel/2018/0 ... _airl.html






"The fees that Pittsburgh International Airport charges to airlines will drop by 8.4 percent in 2019 to $10.35 per departing passenger in 2019 — the sixth straight year the rate has fallen, officials said."
https://archive.triblive.com/local/allegheny/14194253-74/pittsburgh-airports-fees-charged-to-airlines-drop-for-sixth-straight-year



Moving on.......

A couple advertisements from EFL promoting PIT:
Image
Image


The FAA states those figures you are listing as totally incorrect
 
crjflyboy
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:37 am

pgh234 wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
flyPIT wrote:

The "CPE" (Cost Per Enplanement) at PIT is closer to $12. Furthermore, neither CLT or ATL are peer airports as those are exponentially busier due to their fortress hub status and therefore are able to distribute their cost of operation over a much larger passenger count.

As for my 1952 terminal comment I guess you don't read sarcasm. But given your response I'm left to believe that if it was still standing we should be using it.



I stand firm on my $ 16.35 PEC charges at PIT if you can refute it ... do it with proof


This, umm, troll just joined two days ago. While we all have our opinions about the new airport...we act like grown ups in this thread. FlyPIT tried to explain in a civil manner why ATL and CLT have lower CPE. Any hub should.


MIA is a HUB … their CPE fees are very high

https://www.cleveland.com/travel/2018/0 ... _airl.html
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:46 am

crjflyboy wrote:
The FAA states those figures you are listing as totally incorrect

I could ask you to follow your own advice......
crjflyboy wrote:
if you can refute it ... do it with proof


But it doesn't even matter what the FAA lists. The PIT airport budget - and therefore the resulting CPE - is determined by the ACAA, not the FAA. You asked, I gave three separate sources that cite the 2019 ACAA budget.
FLYi
 
corkscrew
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:49 am

crjflyboy wrote:
The FAA states those figures you are listing as totally incorrect


Using the FAA's own data, the CPE last year was $12.08. Unless I'm misreading, this years budgeted CPE is $10.35. Obviously that can change but all FAA data points to a downward trend.

You demanded proof and it was given. If you're citing conflicting figures you should likewise back them up - otherwise, you're not contributing anything more meaningful than noise.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:55 am

crjflyboy wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
The FAA states those figures you are listing as totally incorrect

I could ask you to follow your own advice......
crjflyboy wrote:
if you can refute it ... do it with proof


But it doesn't even matter what the FAA lists. The PIT airport budget - and therefore the resulting CPE - is determined by the ACAA, not the FAA. You asked, I gave three separate sources that cite the 2019 ACAA budget.


FAA sets the standards .. not the clown organization in ALLEGHENY COUNTY … now go pour some more money in ONEJET and VIA …

The FAA does not set the CPE, and the ACAA did not spend anything on Via.
FLYi
 
corkscrew
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:07 am

Let's not waste any more time on cyclical arguments.

Awesome to see the 3rd Qatar flight. FedEx and UPS' upgauges more recently are also promising. The real test at some point in the future will be if a second cargo carrier can be attracted to provide some competition for international freight.
 
Runway28L
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:25 am

Did someone from the Post-Gazette comments section find their way onto this thread? :duck:

corkscrew wrote:
Let's not waste any more time on cyclical arguments.

Awesome to see the 3rd Qatar flight. FedEx and UPS' upgauges more recently are also promising. The real test at some point in the future will be if a second cargo carrier can be attracted to provide some competition for international freight.

Personally, I’d love to see Amazon Prime Air with service to CVG or elsewhere on the domestic front. The problem with landing more cargo flights here is space. The current cargo facilities would likely have to be expanded first before any sort of major growth could take place.
 
Gsasala
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:56 am

corkscrew wrote:
Let's not waste any more time on cyclical arguments.

Awesome to see the 3rd Qatar flight. FedEx and UPS' upgauges more recently are also promising. The real test at some point in the future will be if a second cargo carrier can be attracted to provide some competition for international freight.

I would love to see a 747 cargo plane from either Anchorage or China come to Pittsburgh
 
acentauri
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:16 am

Gsasala wrote:
.....................I would love to see a 747 cargo plane from either Anchorage or China come to Pittsburgh

It'd be much more dramatic if BA did a one-off 747 substitution for the LHR 787-8.
 
steeler83
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:04 pm

^ I suppose that would be possible. While it would be sweet & badass to see a scheduled passenger 747 touch down again at PIT, I won't hold my breath.

Regarding the service at PIT, DL's PIT-BOS service, is that all CR7/CR9 equipment? I saw this discussed briefly in the DL thread about them upping BOS to hub status and various other markets to focus city status. I remember the last time they launched PIT-BOS - with a CRJ. They didn't do squat on that route with those aircraft. Then, they relaunch the route with somewhat bigger aircraft with a business/first class cabin, and are now running this at 5 times daily and seem to be holding their own against B6.

One could probably argue that PIT-BOS is a growth opportunity for PIT, but I guess it was mainly about DL connecting the dots at BOS as they build it into a secondary hub.

Does AA still serve PIT-RDU... for now?
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
inlikepitt
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:20 pm

AA's PIT-RDU non-stop is still 1X daily on CRJ-200 aircraft, operated by PSA
 
Runway28L
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:07 pm

steeler83 wrote:
^ I suppose that would be possible. While it would be sweet & badass to see a scheduled passenger 747 touch down again at PIT, I won't hold my breath.

Regarding the service at PIT, DL's PIT-BOS service, is that all CR7/CR9 equipment? I saw this discussed briefly in the DL thread about them upping BOS to hub status and various other markets to focus city status. I remember the last time they launched PIT-BOS - with a CRJ. They didn't do squat on that route with those aircraft. Then, they relaunch the route with somewhat bigger aircraft with a business/first class cabin, and are now running this at 5 times daily and seem to be holding their own against B6.

One could probably argue that PIT-BOS is a growth opportunity for PIT, but I guess it was mainly about DL connecting the dots at BOS as they build it into a secondary hub.

Does AA still serve PIT-RDU... for now?

PIT-BOS is entirely on Republic E170s this month for DL. And yes, AA is still running PIT-RDU on a PSA CRJ2.
 
KPITK
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:56 pm

It looked as if Qatar was going to 3x weekly flights, however 2 weeks into this new charter flight they have still only been flying 2x weekly. One on Tuesday running DOH-LUX-PIT-ORD and one Thursday running DOH-LUX-ORD-PIT.

corkscrew wrote:
Let's not waste any more time on cyclical arguments.

Awesome to see the 3rd Qatar flight. FedEx and UPS' upgauges more recently are also promising. The real test at some point in the future will be if a second cargo carrier can be attracted to provide some competition for international freight.
 
tphuang
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:19 pm

steeler83 wrote:
^ I suppose that would be possible. While it would be sweet & badass to see a scheduled passenger 747 touch down again at PIT, I won't hold my breath.

Regarding the service at PIT, DL's PIT-BOS service, is that all CR7/CR9 equipment? I saw this discussed briefly in the DL thread about them upping BOS to hub status and various other markets to focus city status. I remember the last time they launched PIT-BOS - with a CRJ. They didn't do squat on that route with those aircraft. Then, they relaunch the route with somewhat bigger aircraft with a business/first class cabin, and are now running this at 5 times daily and seem to be holding their own against B6.

One could probably argue that PIT-BOS is a growth opportunity for PIT, but I guess it was mainly about DL connecting the dots at BOS as they build it into a secondary hub.

Does AA still serve PIT-RDU... for now?

they are not really holding their own if you look at the yield numbers. DL has committed itself to offering competitive schedule vs B6 in all the BOS markets, which is why they run as many flight as they do on BOS-PIT. This is entirely an over served market at the moment. BOS-PIT was a decently profitable for B6 in 2017 (based on my model, still not a top 5 market as B6 was telling the world), but is now is losing money a little bit.

We will see what happens on PIT-RDU, but DL is basically saying we know AA has less tolerance for losses at non-hub cities so we will run this even if it means bigger losses. Funnily enough, AA still hasn't quit on BOS-ROC/SYR yet, so PIT-RDU may stick around longer than expected.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:19 pm

The article about EFL stated the first flight had 90 tons. The B77F has a capacity of 103 tons so looks they they are off to a great start. Lets hope the volume stays up.
FLYi
 
Delta28L
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:26 pm

What day is the third flight coming in?
 
Gsasala
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:21 am

Does anyone know if the DL B757 flight was carrying pax?
DL1933 from Pittsburgh to Minneapolis https://fr24.com/DAL1933/20d8c40a
 
corkscrew
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:24 am

Gsasala wrote:
Does anyone know if the DL B757 flight was carrying pax?
DL1933 from Pittsburgh to Minneapolis https://fr24.com/DAL1933/20d8c40a


Looks like a last minute equipment sub for the scheduled 739 on the route.
 
TYSflyer
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:06 pm

The TYS airport PR department does a podcast and their most recent one yesterday touched on how the G4 PIT-TYS flight came to fruition. Not surprisingly it was a combined effort from the Gatlinburg/Pigeon Forge tourism department and TYS airport in recruiting the flight. Apparently they flew to Las Vegas and met with Allegiant last winter and the flight was a result of these efforts. They are trying to capitalize on the new G4 base here in Knoxville although the route is operated by a PIT based A319. The bookings have appeared ok but certainly could be better. I’ll be interested to see what the LFs are for the summer season it operates. My family and I will be on it here in a couple of weeks. I was rather hopeful it would be extended for the fall as October is a big tourism month for this area. Also there seems to be a rather large contingent of Steeler fans in the area that might utilize the route. It is getting late for it to be extended so maybe that’ll happen next year.
 
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ConcourseZ
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:18 pm

Anyone know why BA170/171 was cancelled today?
 
Runway28L
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:46 pm

ConcourseZ wrote:
Anyone know why BA170/171 was cancelled today?

BA40 DUR-LHR, which is also on a B788, diverted to JNB due to a tech issue and got stranded. So BA ferried another B788 down to JNB to rescue those passengers. Only problem though is the same aircraft that ferried down was scheduled to do BA171 this evening, so rescuing passengers at JNB came at the expense of cancelling LHR-PIT.

http://thebasource.com/british-airways- ... e-mission/

I guess there was no spare aircraft available to both continue BA40 and operate BA171 tonight.
 
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ConcourseZ
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:24 am

Runway28L wrote:
ConcourseZ wrote:
Anyone know why BA170/171 was cancelled today?

BA40 DUR-LHR, which is also on a B788, diverted to JNB due to a tech issue and got stranded. So BA ferried another B788 down to JNB to rescue those passengers. Only problem though is the same aircraft that ferried down was scheduled to do BA171 this evening, so rescuing passengers at JNB came at the expense of cancelling LHR-PIT.

http://thebasource.com/british-airways- ... e-mission/

I guess there was no spare aircraft available to both continue BA40 and operate BA171 tonight.

Will BA double up one day this week?
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:39 am

One more note on these QR EFL charters:
"Whether PIT will follow in LCK’s footsteps as a fashion hub remains to be seen. According to PIT’s website, scheduled cargo operations at the airport are undertaken by Qatar Cargo, UPS Airlines and FedEx Express, but the airport has so far declined to comment."
https://aircargoworld.com/allposts/efl-charters-weekly-777f-from-doha-to-pittsburgh/

Interesting the ACAA won't even comment on this; makes me wonder if they have more up their sleeve.



Runway28L wrote:
BA40 DUR-LHR, which is also on a B788, diverted to JNB due to a tech issue and got stranded. So BA ferried another B788 down to JNB to rescue those passengers. Only problem though is the same aircraft that ferried down was scheduled to do BA171 this evening, so rescuing passengers at JNB came at the expense of cancelling LHR-PIT.

http://thebasource.com/british-airways- ... e-mission/

I guess there was no spare aircraft available to both continue BA40 and operate BA171 tonight.

Call me cynical, but it can't be a good sign that BA would cancel two flights involving PIT (a complete r/t) to rescue a single flight from somewhere else... especially when the city that one flight diverted to is a city already served by BA. Twice daily no less, by an A380 and B744. Not exactly the way I wanted to see BA's first sold out flight from PIT (tmrw's PIT-LHR).
FLYi
 
Runway28L
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:58 am

ConcourseZ wrote:
Runway28L wrote:
ConcourseZ wrote:
Anyone know why BA170/171 was cancelled today?

BA40 DUR-LHR, which is also on a B788, diverted to JNB due to a tech issue and got stranded. So BA ferried another B788 down to JNB to rescue those passengers. Only problem though is the same aircraft that ferried down was scheduled to do BA171 this evening, so rescuing passengers at JNB came at the expense of cancelling LHR-PIT.

http://thebasource.com/british-airways- ... e-mission/

I guess there was no spare aircraft available to both continue BA40 and operate BA171 tonight.

Will BA double up one day this week?

I doubt it. I am willing to bet most passengers got rerouted through ORD and PHL on AA or got rebooked on tomorrow's BA171. Regardless, tomorrow's inbound and outbound should be pretty packed.

flyPIT wrote:
Call me cynical, but it can't be a good sign that BA would cancel two flights involving PIT (a complete r/t) to rescue a single flight from somewhere else... especially when the city that one flight diverted to is a city already served by BA. Twice daily no less, by an A380 and B744. Not exactly the way I wanted to see BA's first sold out flight from PIT (tmrw's PIT-LHR).

I agree it does seem odd. But there just has to be more that went into that decision and I can't see how financial performance on LHR-PIT had to do with an emergency situation. Perhaps both the A388 and B744 out of JNB were sold out and couldn't accommodate stranded passengers? Or maybe it was just easier to cancel LHR-PIT versus LHR-BWI/MSY due to scheduling of crew and/or aircraft?

BA also stating before of how pleased they are with PIT so far just gives me another reason to dismiss such a notion.
 
GSP psgr
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:10 am

Runway28L wrote:
ConcourseZ wrote:
Runway28L wrote:
BA40 DUR-LHR, which is also on a B788, diverted to JNB due to a tech issue and got stranded. So BA ferried another B788 down to JNB to rescue those passengers. Only problem though is the same aircraft that ferried down was scheduled to do BA171 this evening, so rescuing passengers at JNB came at the expense of cancelling LHR-PIT.

http://thebasource.com/british-airways- ... e-mission/

I guess there was no spare aircraft available to both continue BA40 and operate BA171 tonight.

Will BA double up one day this week?

I doubt it. I am willing to bet most passengers got rerouted through ORD and PHL on AA or got rebooked on tomorrow's BA171. Regardless, tomorrow's inbound and outbound should be pretty packed.

flyPIT wrote:
Call me cynical, but it can't be a good sign that BA would cancel two flights involving PIT (a complete r/t) to rescue a single flight from somewhere else... especially when the city that one flight diverted to is a city already served by BA. Twice daily no less, by an A380 and B744. Not exactly the way I wanted to see BA's first sold out flight from PIT (tmrw's PIT-LHR).

I agree it does seem odd. But there just has to be more that went into that decision and I can't see how financial performance on LHR-PIT had to do with an emergency situation. Perhaps both the A388 and B744 out of JNB were sold out and couldn't accommodate stranded passengers? Or maybe it was just easier to cancel LHR-PIT versus LHR-BWI/MSY due to scheduling of crew and/or aircraft?

BA also stating before of how pleased they are with PIT so far just gives me another reason to dismiss such a notion.


I know that BA's LHR-JNB rotations usually operate chock a block full to start with, with little available slack. Add in the fact that OneWorld has basically no African partner to fall back on and it's a situation where BA probably had to solve the problem on it's own. With regards to PIT, BA can fall back on connecting pax on AA via ORD/PHL/JFK/RDU/CLT in a way that they cannot in Southern Africa. OTOH, I'm slightly surprised they couldn't find a spare 772 laying about somewhere, although with the 787 enginge issues, BA's probably is running beyind it's usual operational limits-see the Air Belgium A340 they had to wetlease this summer.
 
steeler83
Posts: 7609
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:07 pm

tphuang wrote:
steeler83 wrote:
^ I suppose that would be possible. While it would be sweet & badass to see a scheduled passenger 747 touch down again at PIT, I won't hold my breath.

Regarding the service at PIT, DL's PIT-BOS service, is that all CR7/CR9 equipment? I saw this discussed briefly in the DL thread about them upping BOS to hub status and various other markets to focus city status. I remember the last time they launched PIT-BOS - with a CRJ. They didn't do squat on that route with those aircraft. Then, they relaunch the route with somewhat bigger aircraft with a business/first class cabin, and are now running this at 5 times daily and seem to be holding their own against B6.

One could probably argue that PIT-BOS is a growth opportunity for PIT, but I guess it was mainly about DL connecting the dots at BOS as they build it into a secondary hub.

Does AA still serve PIT-RDU... for now?

they are not really holding their own if you look at the yield numbers. DL has committed itself to offering competitive schedule vs B6 in all the BOS markets, which is why they run as many flight as they do on BOS-PIT. This is entirely an over served market at the moment. BOS-PIT was a decently profitable for B6 in 2017 (based on my model, still not a top 5 market as B6 was telling the world), but is now is losing money a little bit.

We will see what happens on PIT-RDU, but DL is basically saying we know AA has less tolerance for losses at non-hub cities so we will run this even if it means bigger losses. Funnily enough, AA still hasn't quit on BOS-ROC/SYR yet, so PIT-RDU may stick around longer than expected.

I guess "holding their own" wasn't the best phrase to use here. I guess I should have worded it that they were OK with operating the flights at 50-60% and at a loss. From the looks at the LFs on the previous page, it looks like they're neck and neck pretty much.

Regarding the cancellation of LHR-PIT-LHR, I'd have to agree with those saying it's more about available a/c and rescheduling the pax than it is about the route's performance. BA thought would be easier to cancel that flight and reroute 200 people through, JFK, PHL, or ORD via AA, or reschedule some pax on a later flight. This has nothing to do with the performance of the flight itself. Suppose this was a flight operated by a 747 or A380 and they were able to utiilze one of the planes on LHR-JFK or the 744 on LHR-PHL. Would that lead to speculation that LHR-JFK or LHR-PHL is in trouble???
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
tphuang
Posts: 3001
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:09 pm

steeler83 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
steeler83 wrote:
^ I suppose that would be possible. While it would be sweet & badass to see a scheduled passenger 747 touch down again at PIT, I won't hold my breath.

Regarding the service at PIT, DL's PIT-BOS service, is that all CR7/CR9 equipment? I saw this discussed briefly in the DL thread about them upping BOS to hub status and various other markets to focus city status. I remember the last time they launched PIT-BOS - with a CRJ. They didn't do squat on that route with those aircraft. Then, they relaunch the route with somewhat bigger aircraft with a business/first class cabin, and are now running this at 5 times daily and seem to be holding their own against B6.

One could probably argue that PIT-BOS is a growth opportunity for PIT, but I guess it was mainly about DL connecting the dots at BOS as they build it into a secondary hub.

Does AA still serve PIT-RDU... for now?

they are not really holding their own if you look at the yield numbers. DL has committed itself to offering competitive schedule vs B6 in all the BOS markets, which is why they run as many flight as they do on BOS-PIT. This is entirely an over served market at the moment. BOS-PIT was a decently profitable for B6 in 2017 (based on my model, still not a top 5 market as B6 was telling the world), but is now is losing money a little bit.

We will see what happens on PIT-RDU, but DL is basically saying we know AA has less tolerance for losses at non-hub cities so we will run this even if it means bigger losses. Funnily enough, AA still hasn't quit on BOS-ROC/SYR yet, so PIT-RDU may stick around longer than expected.

I guess "holding their own" wasn't the best phrase to use here. I guess I should have worded it that they were OK with operating the flights at 50-60% and at a loss. From the looks at the LFs on the previous page, it looks like they're neck and neck pretty much.

Regarding the cancellation of LHR-PIT-LHR, I'd have to agree with those saying it's more about available a/c and rescheduling the pax than it is about the route's performance. BA thought would be easier to cancel that flight and reroute 200 people through, JFK, PHL, or ORD via AA, or reschedule some pax on a later flight. This has nothing to do with the performance of the flight itself. Suppose this was a flight operated by a 747 or A380 and they were able to utiilze one of the planes on LHR-JFK or the 744 on LHR-PHL. Would that lead to speculation that LHR-JFK or LHR-PHL is in trouble???


The average fares for DL was about 20% lower. And also it's a lot easier filling 2 RJs of 70 seats vs 6 flights of E90s. Now that DL has to fill 5 flights of 70 seats, I can't see how that yield won't drop even further.
 
Runway28L
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:29 pm

I completely forgot to mention (yet I don’t know how true this is) that WFS at PIT may not have proper equipment or any staff that have experience/training/certification associated with handling a B772 or even a B744. We can’t even have A380 diversions park at the terminal since there’s no towbar anywhere on the field.

tphuang wrote:

Tphuang, what do you think the future is with B6 on BOS-PIT? Do you think it will be a strong candidate as an A220 route right off the bat or do you think it will just remain all-E190 for the foreseeable future?

Since BOS-PIT is extremely competitive, I can see how B6 would want to throw their newest and best in-cabin product against DL’s 70-76 seaters. Plus the A220s would probably have better operating costs which could help improve any sort of losses B6 might face. On the other hand, the A220 JetBlue selected (the BCS3) is quite the jump in capacity from the E190 and if yields are trash, then adding more seats likely isn’t a viable move.

Personally, I could see how the A220 could quickly make its way onto the route. But at the same time, I wouldn’t be surprised if B6 stayed entirely E190 all they way up until their retirements in 2024-2025.
 
tphuang
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:02 pm

Runway28L wrote:
I completely forgot to mention (yet I don’t know how true this is) that WFS at PIT may not have proper equipment or any staff that have experience/training/certification associated with handling a B772 or even a B744. We can’t even have A380 diversions park at the terminal since there’s no towbar anywhere on the field.

tphuang wrote:

Tphuang, what do you think the future is with B6 on BOS-PIT? Do you think it will be a strong candidate as an A220 route right off the bat or do you think it will just remain all-E190 for the foreseeable future?

Since BOS-PIT is extremely competitive, I can see how B6 would want to throw their newest and best in-cabin product against DL’s 70-76 seaters. Plus the A220s would probably have better operating costs which could help improve any sort of losses B6 might face. On the other hand, the A220 JetBlue selected (the BCS3) is quite the jump in capacity from the E190 and if yields are trash, then adding more seats likely isn’t a viable move.

Personally, I could see how the A220 could quickly make its way onto the route. But at the same time, I wouldn’t be surprised if B6 stayed entirely E190 all they way up until their retirements in 2024-2025.


I certainly don't see them rushing into replacing E90 here, since their product is likely superior to what DL runs here. E90 on B6 would still be among the best domestic cabin in a couple of years. As you said, A220 is a lot of capacity. So I could see it as one of the later routes to get converted to A220. I do see PIT-FLL coming back or PIT-MCO getting added with A220.

It also depends on what happens with DL on this route. I don't think their performance here is sustainable long term. B6 does lose a little money here now, but it's tolerable type of loss. If DL drops out, I can see them dropping frequency and moving to the lower cost A220.
 
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flyPIT
Posts: 1588
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:46 pm

steeler83 wrote:
Regarding the cancellation of LHR-PIT-LHR, I'd have to agree with those saying it's more about available a/c and rescheduling the pax than it is about the route's performance. BA thought would be easier to cancel that flight and reroute 200 people through, JFK, PHL, or ORD via AA, or reschedule some pax on a later flight. This has nothing to do with the performance of the flight itself. Suppose this was a flight operated by a 747 or A380 and they were able to utiilze one of the planes on LHR-JFK or the 744 on LHR-PHL. Would that lead to speculation that LHR-JFK or LHR-PHL is in trouble???

Let me know next time BA cancels a JFK r/t to rescue a one way flight stranded in JNB or HKG or wherever. It doesn't happen. And if it did I would find it equally peculiar. Off the top of my head BA could have cancelled a B787 flight to BWI, SJC, BNA, YYC (and that's only N.America) or any number of LGW based B777 leisure flights (which I would think are lower yielding) to rescue this Durban diversion. That it was the PIT flight is a legitimate point. If you don't think BA considered the loads and revenue of the day's r/t PIT flight (both passenger and cargo) in comparison to all these other places you are fooling yourself. BA could have routed passengers on AA from these other US destinations just as easily. Also, does BA have ticketing agreements with other airlines for such a situation like what is common among US carriers? If so, there is plenty of opportunity to get these pax out of JNB (LH,LX, AF, QR, etc.) and it would seem to make this even more unusual.

It was one round trip, I in no way am suggesting the PIT flight is "in trouble" or not meeting expectations. The reality is it is a newish flight and not as mature as the others so there is a way to go for it to develop.


Runway28L wrote:
I completely forgot to mention (yet I don’t know how true this is) that WFS at PIT may not have proper equipment or any staff that have experience/training/certification associated with handling a B772 or even a B744. We can’t even have A380 diversions park at the terminal since there’s no towbar anywhere on the field.

You are correct about the A380 but I don't think it is an issue at all for the other types. PIT handles plenty of B777 diversions on short notice at the terminal. UA, AA, AF, EK, KL, SV have all sent a B777 diversion here. I don't see why arrangements couldn't be made for WFS to handle an upgauge to a scheduled BA flight.


tphuang wrote:
It also depends on what happens with DL on this route. I don't think their performance here is sustainable long term. B6 does lose a little money here now, but it's tolerable type of loss. If DL drops out, I can see them dropping frequency and moving to the lower cost A220.

I don't think DL will drop out of PIT-BOS at all. They are committed to their BOS hub long term so that means keeping the PIT-BOS route. I could see them going down to 4x daily on the weekdays (3x on weekends), and B6 scaling back to 4x daily as well especially when the A220 takes over.
FLYi
 
KPITK
Posts: 17
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:46 pm

Runway28L wrote:
I completely forgot to mention (yet I don’t know how true this is) that WFS at PIT may not have proper equipment or any staff that have experience/training/certification associated with handling a B772 or even a B744. We can’t even have A380 diversions park at the terminal since there’s no towbar anywhere on the field.



WFS handles the 772 for the QR flight so the equipment is on the field and the below wing training is there I assume.
 
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ConcourseZ
Posts: 406
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:06 pm

Here's a link from RoutesOnline with BA winter 19 long-haul changes, including the US. PIT does not change.
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... f-10jun19/
 
Runway28L
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:31 pm

Looks like we have a National B744F scheduled to arrive later today.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/NCR812
 
steeler83
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:52 pm

flyPIT wrote:
steeler83 wrote:
Regarding the cancellation of LHR-PIT-LHR, I'd have to agree with those saying it's more about available a/c and rescheduling the pax than it is about the route's performance. BA thought would be easier to cancel that flight and reroute 200 people through, JFK, PHL, or ORD via AA, or reschedule some pax on a later flight. This has nothing to do with the performance of the flight itself. Suppose this was a flight operated by a 747 or A380 and they were able to utiilze one of the planes on LHR-JFK or the 744 on LHR-PHL. Would that lead to speculation that LHR-JFK or LHR-PHL is in trouble???

Let me know next time BA cancels a JFK r/t to rescue a one way flight stranded in JNB or HKG or wherever. It doesn't happen. And if it did I would find it equally peculiar. Off the top of my head BA could have cancelled a B787 flight to BWI, SJC, BNA, YYC (and that's only N.America) or any number of LGW based B777 leisure flights (which I would think are lower yielding) to rescue this Durban diversion. That it was the PIT flight is a legitimate point. If you don't think BA considered the loads and revenue of the day's r/t PIT flight (both passenger and cargo) in comparison to all these other places you are fooling yourself. BA could have routed passengers on AA from these other US destinations just as easily. Also, does BA have ticketing agreements with other airlines for such a situation like what is common among US carriers? If so, there is plenty of opportunity to get these pax out of JNB (LH,LX, AF, QR, etc.) and it would seem to make this even more unusual.

It was one round trip, I in no way am suggesting the PIT flight is "in trouble" or not meeting expectations. The reality is it is a newish flight and not as mature as the others so there is a way to go for it to develop.


Runway28L wrote:
I completely forgot to mention (yet I don’t know how true this is) that WFS at PIT may not have proper equipment or any staff that have experience/training/certification associated with handling a B772 or even a B744. We can’t even have A380 diversions park at the terminal since there’s no towbar anywhere on the field.

You are correct about the A380 but I don't think it is an issue at all for the other types. PIT handles plenty of B777 diversions on short notice at the terminal. UA, AA, AF, EK, KL, SV have all sent a B777 diversion here. I don't see why arrangements couldn't be made for WFS to handle an upgauge to a scheduled BA flight.


tphuang wrote:
It also depends on what happens with DL on this route. I don't think their performance here is sustainable long term. B6 does lose a little money here now, but it's tolerable type of loss. If DL drops out, I can see them dropping frequency and moving to the lower cost A220.

I don't think DL will drop out of PIT-BOS at all. They are committed to their BOS hub long term so that means keeping the PIT-BOS route. I could see them going down to 4x daily on the weekdays (3x on weekends), and B6 scaling back to 4x daily as well especially when the A220 takes over.

I was just trying to make a point, but I guess as I reread that one said point really wasn't valid. My bad.

About the A220, I'm assuming those are slightly larger than the E190s? I don't remember right off what their seating capacity is on those.
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
Runway28L
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:15 pm

steeler83 wrote:
About the A220, I'm assuming those are slightly larger than the E190s? I don't remember right off what their seating capacity is on those.

JetBlue’s E190s seat 100. The A220s will seat 140, according to this source.
https://paxex.aero/2019/04/jetblue-a220 ... or-layout/

So quite the jump in capacity.
 
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ConcourseZ
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:29 pm

A220 is 2-3 seating, like a DC-9.
 
Runway28L
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:51 am

The National B744 is now scheduled to depart for Frankfurt-Hahn at 0100, where the Atlas Air B763 from last Friday also went.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/N8812

National parked in Qatar’s spot next to UPS after it landed. I wonder where QR had to park after arriving from ORD tonight...
 
KPITK
Posts: 17
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:55 am

Runway28L wrote:
The National B744 is now scheduled to depart for Frankfurt-Hahn at 0100, where the Atlas Air B763 from last Friday also went.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/N8812

National parked in Qatar’s spot next to UPS after it landed. I wonder where QR had to park after arriving from ORD tonight...


QR was parked out on the Charlie pad just like it was back in the beginning days.

Keep increasing the cargo flights at PIT, hopefully add another carrier and we should see expanded cargo ramps/warehouse space.
 
steeler83
Posts: 7609
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:51 pm

Runway28L wrote:
steeler83 wrote:
About the A220, I'm assuming those are slightly larger than the E190s? I don't remember right off what their seating capacity is on those.

JetBlue’s E190s seat 100. The A220s will seat 140, according to this source.
https://paxex.aero/2019/04/jetblue-a220 ... or-layout/

So quite the jump in capacity.

I remember reading that the capacity was going to be higher. I didn't realize it was going to be that much higher!

Even if B6 drops from 5x (all E90) down to 4x (all A220), that's still going to be an overall increase in seats; 500 vs. 560 each way.
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
Delta28L
Posts: 211
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:00 pm

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:56 pm

KPITK wrote:
Runway28L wrote:
The National B744 is now scheduled to depart for Frankfurt-Hahn at 0100, where the Atlas Air B763 from last Friday also went.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/N8812

National parked in Qatar’s spot next to UPS after it landed. I wonder where QR had to park after arriving from ORD tonight...


QR was parked out on the Charlie pad just like it was back in the beginning days.

Keep increasing the cargo flights at PIT, hopefully add another carrier and we should see expanded cargo ramps/warehouse space.


There was plans to add another cargo warehouse next to the UPS/WFS building and another ramp. It was in one of the master plans I saw a while back.
 
tphuang
Posts: 3001
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2019

Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:45 pm

steeler83 wrote:
Runway28L wrote:
steeler83 wrote:
About the A220, I'm assuming those are slightly larger than the E190s? I don't remember right off what their seating capacity is on those.

JetBlue’s E190s seat 100. The A220s will seat 140, according to this source.
https://paxex.aero/2019/04/jetblue-a220 ... or-layout/

So quite the jump in capacity.

I remember reading that the capacity was going to be higher. I didn't realize it was going to be that much higher!

Even if B6 drops from 5x (all E90) down to 4x (all A220), that's still going to be an overall increase in seats; 500 vs. 560 each way.


B6 typically runs 6x. They only do 5x in Jan/Feb. And if you look at LF from T-100 numbers from Q1.
BOSPIT
Carrier flights boarded seats LF seat per flight
OO 131 5364 9182 58.42% 70.1
9E 415 19316 31522 61.28% 76
B6 885 61977 88886 69.73% 100.4
Even with the slightly reduced schedule in Jan/Feb, that is too much capacity. As I said, BOS-PIT will be one of the last markets on E90s. Maybe by then with TATL flying, B6 can support A220s on this route without cutting frequencies. Or maybe they will look to get A220-100.

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